Ben Franisco
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Thoughs on Ben Francisco and upcoming season. thanks for the views in advance
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Thoughs on Ben Francisco and upcoming season. thanks for the views in advance
Thoughs on Ben Francisco and upcoming season. thanks for the views in advance
I want to see him have a huge season as I do all Indians...But I simply think he's treading water until the Tribe calls Matt Laporta. And I think that will happen well before the half way point.
With Brantley and Laporta both not far away, I think Choo and Francisco are not long in an Indian's uniform.
Until Crowe was called back up due to Delluci's injury, I couldn't help but be amazed at the Columbus Clipper's outfield line up of Laporta, Brantley and Crowe.
Brantley will soon be moving Grady to the 3 hole where he Belongs and Laporta will probaby be batting lower but eventually #5 in the line up.
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Francisco will never be blocking LaPorta in the OF. LaPorta will not be an OF in the big leagues. Guy was two hopping the ball to the cut off man during both spring training games I went to. I don't ever want to see that guy regularly playing in the outfield at the big league level.
Francisco will likely become the 4th OF once Brantley makes it to the big league roster. Francisco is a good solid player who can do it all, but does nothing spectularly well. The guy is not a batting champ and MVP in the minors by sure luck.
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Francisco will never be blocking LaPorta in the OF. LaPorta will not be an OF in the big leagues. Guy was two hopping the ball to the cut off man during both spring training games I went to. I don't ever want to see that guy regularly playing in the outfield at the big league level.
Francisco will likely become the 4th OF once Brantley makes it to the big league roster. Francisco is a good solid player who can do it all, but does nothing spectularly well. The guy is not a batting champ and MVP in the minors by sure luck.
Masters said:
Francisco will never be blocking LaPorta in the OF. LaPorta will not be an OF in the big leagues. Guy was two hopping the ball to the cut off man during both spring training games I went to. I don't ever want to see that guy regularly playing in the outfield at the big league level.Francisco will likely become the 4th OF once Brantley makes it to the big league roster. Francisco is a good solid player who can do it all, but does nothing spectularly well. The guy is not a batting champ and MVP in the minors by sure luck.
So you are saying that if Ben Francisco struggles and Matt LaPorta hits 20 HR's before half, the Tribe won't call him to pay left?
Ok...Sure.
LaPorta's future may end up being as a DH. But when he first comes up he won't be a DH or 1st baseman. He'll be in the OF until they make moves and ultimately make him a 1st baseman or DH.
Even if Hafner fails in his comeback and they call LaPorta up they will not make the 24 year old a DH. 31 year old Martinez would probably move to DH while Shoppach takes over the full time catchign duties.
Democracy is two wolves and a lamb voting on what to have for lunch. Liberty is a well armed lamb contesting the vote! - "Ben Franklin" -
Masters said:
Francisco will never be blocking LaPorta in the OF. LaPorta will not be an OF in the big leagues. Guy was two hopping the ball to the cut off man during both spring training games I went to. I don't ever want to see that guy regularly playing in the outfield at the big league level.Francisco will likely become the 4th OF once Brantley makes it to the big league roster. Francisco is a good solid player who can do it all, but does nothing spectularly well. The guy is not a batting champ and MVP in the minors by sure luck.
So you are saying that if Ben Francisco struggles and Matt LaPorta hits 20 HR's before half, the Tribe won't call him to pay left?
Ok...Sure.
LaPorta's future may end up being as a DH. But when he first comes up he won't be a DH or 1st baseman. He'll be in the OF until they make moves and ultimately make him a 1st baseman or DH.
Even if Hafner fails in his comeback and they call LaPorta up they will not make the 24 year old a DH. 31 year old Martinez would probably move to DH while Shoppach takes over the full time catchign duties.
So you are saying that if Ben Francisco struggles and Matt LaPorta hits 20 HR's before half, the Tribe won't call him to pay left?
Ok...Sure.
LaPorta's future may end up being as a DH. But when he first comes up he won't be a DH or 1st baseman. He'll be in the OF until they make moves and ultimately make him a 1st baseman or DH.
Even if Hafner fails in his comeback and they call LaPorta up they will not make the 24 year old a DH. 31 year old Martinez would probably move to DH while Shoppach takes over the full time catchign duties.
If he is two hoping balls to the cut off man, yes I am saying that. 20 HRs doesn't make up for each single that becomes a double, and each extra run that scores because your LF can't even get the ball to the cut off man.
If Hafner fails, we'll just see more of Vic at DH, and yes CLE will DH a 24 year old if they don't have a position available for him to play. If he is weaker defensively than everyone else, you don't sacrafice the D for his bat, when you can have his bat and keep your strong D.
After seeing the kid, everyone might want to settle their enthusiasm for him. Brantley and Mills will get to the big league roster before Laporta. He is not the great hitter people are trying to make him out to be.
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Your vendetta against LaPorta is pretty strange to me. He's ranked by virtually everyone as not just one of the tip top prospects in all of baseball, but also the most major league ready. The Brewers loved him, as he was the centerpiece for maybe the best Tribe player of the 2000s, the Indians love him, the reporters in Goodyear all loved him, Shapiro and Wedge both made it clear he had a huge spring where he bat .361 with an OPS over 1. He then gets sent to AAA where he'll be an everyday outfielder, and by pretty much all accounts, likely one of the first in AAA to get called up in '09.
But since you saw a couple games where he made a bad throw or two we should just take him off our radar. No offense but I'm not really buying it.
Unless Hafner goes on the DL I think they're going to give him every chance to succeed based on all the years and dollars left on his deal. But if it becomes mid-May and Shoppach or Garko are struggling, I could see LaPorta getting plugged at 1st. Other than that, or an injury at 1B/DH/RF, it's pretty much LF or AAA, in my opinion.
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Your vendetta against LaPorta is pretty strange to me. He's ranked by virtually everyone as not just one of the tip top prospects in all of baseball, but also the most major league ready. The Brewers loved him, as he was the centerpiece for maybe the best Tribe player of the 2000s, the Indians love him, the reporters in Goodyear all loved him, Shapiro and Wedge both made it clear he had a huge spring where he bat .361 with an OPS over 1. He then gets sent to AAA where he'll be an everyday outfielder, and by pretty much all accounts, likely one of the first in AAA to get called up in '09.
But since you saw a couple games where he made a bad throw or two we should just take him off our radar. No offense but I'm not really buying it.
Unless Hafner goes on the DL I think they're going to give him every chance to succeed based on all the years and dollars left on his deal. But if it becomes mid-May and Shoppach or Garko are struggling, I could see LaPorta getting plugged at 1st. Other than that, or an injury at 1B/DH/RF, it's pretty much LF or AAA, in my opinion.
Your vendetta against LaPorta is pretty strange to me. He's ranked by virtually everyone as not just one of the tip top prospects in all of baseball, but also the most major league ready. The Brewers loved him, as he was the centerpiece for maybe the best Tribe player of the 2000s, the Indians love him, the reporters in Goodyear all loved him, Shapiro and Wedge both made it clear he had a huge spring where he bat .361 with an OPS over 1. He then gets sent to AAA where he'll be an everyday outfielder, and by pretty much all accounts, likely one of the first in AAA to get called up in '09.
But since you saw a couple games where he made a bad throw or two we should just take him off our radar. No offense but I'm not really buying it.
Unless Hafner goes on the DL I think they're going to give him every chance to succeed based on all the years and dollars left on his deal. But if it becomes mid-May and Shoppach or Garko are struggling, I could see LaPorta getting plugged at 1st. Other than that, or an injury at 1B/DH/RF, it's pretty much LF or AAA, in my opinion.
It's not a vendeta. Just calling it as I saw w/ my own eyes (not some report in baseball weekley or elsewhere). I saw the dude at spring training in Goodyear. How many games have you watched him play in ever, batting practice, or fielding practice? Have you seen him throw in from the OF? I have. It wasn't a couple of bad throws. He did it in game and during fielding practice all the time. You can not buy it, but it happened.
You know who else was a top prospect, Marte? Don't take those ranking by sporting sources with a 100%. It's no different than NFL or other sports. Guys can have the tools, doesn't mean they can put them all together and produce.
People are expecting LaPorta to be some super player, but reality is he's done nothing yet. He had a decent spring, but Brantley, Mills, and Crowe had better springs.
Sure, if you got Garko or Shoppach struggling, he's got a better chance. But if CLE needs someone for 1st base, it will be Mills before Laporta, based on what I saw over the course of spring training.
Laporta may be end up being everything people hope and think he'll end up. But I don't believe it is going to be this season. The guy really hasn't seen that much time in the minors yet.
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Masters said:
Francisco will never be blocking LaPorta in the OF. LaPorta will not be an OF in the big leagues. Guy was two hopping the ball to the cut off man during both spring training games I went to. I don't ever want to see that guy regularly playing in the outfield at the big league level.Francisco will likely become the 4th OF once Brantley makes it to the big league roster. Francisco is a good solid player who can do it all, but does nothing spectularly well. The guy is not a batting champ and MVP in the minors by sure luck.
So you are saying that if Ben Francisco struggles and Matt LaPorta hits 20 HR's before half, the Tribe won't call him to pay left?
Ok...Sure.
LaPorta's future may end up being as a DH. But when he first comes up he won't be a DH or 1st baseman. He'll be in the OF until they make moves and ultimately make him a 1st baseman or DH.
Even if Hafner fails in his comeback and they call LaPorta up they will not make the 24 year old a DH. 31 year old Martinez would probably move to DH while Shoppach takes over the full time catchign duties.
So you are saying that if Ben Francisco struggles and Matt LaPorta hits 20 HR's before half, the Tribe won't call him to pay left?
Ok...Sure.
LaPorta's future may end up being as a DH. But when he first comes up he won't be a DH or 1st baseman. He'll be in the OF until they make moves and ultimately make him a 1st baseman or DH.
Even if Hafner fails in his comeback and they call LaPorta up they will not make the 24 year old a DH. 31 year old Martinez would probably move to DH while Shoppach takes over the full time catchign duties.
LaPorta is as slow as my grandmother, won't play left.
Luck is Tim Couch. Big, Dumb Goofy, slow thinking QB - Ghoolie, 2-28-12 -
Your vendetta against LaPorta is pretty strange to me. He's ranked by virtually everyone as not just one of the tip top prospects in all of baseball, but also the most major league ready. The Brewers loved him, as he was the centerpiece for maybe the best Tribe player of the 2000s, the Indians love him, the reporters in Goodyear all loved him, Shapiro and Wedge both made it clear he had a huge spring where he bat .361 with an OPS over 1. He then gets sent to AAA where he'll be an everyday outfielder, and by pretty much all accounts, likely one of the first in AAA to get called up in '09.
But since you saw a couple games where he made a bad throw or two we should just take him off our radar. No offense but I'm not really buying it.
Unless Hafner goes on the DL I think they're going to give him every chance to succeed based on all the years and dollars left on his deal. But if it becomes mid-May and Shoppach or Garko are struggling, I could see LaPorta getting plugged at 1st. Other than that, or an injury at 1B/DH/RF, it's pretty much LF or AAA, in my opinion.
It's not a vendeta. Just calling it as I saw w/ my own eyes (not some report in baseball weekley or elsewhere). I saw the dude at spring training in Goodyear. How many games have you watched him play in ever, batting practice, or fielding practice? Have you seen him throw in from the OF? I have. It wasn't a couple of bad throws. He did it in game and during fielding practice all the time. You can not buy it, but it happened.
You know who else was a top prospect, Marte? Don't take those ranking by sporting sources with a 100%. It's no different than NFL or other sports. Guys can have the tools, doesn't mean they can put them all together and produce.
People are expecting LaPorta to be some super player, but reality is he's done nothing yet. He had a decent spring, but Brantley, Mills, and Crowe had better springs.
Sure, if you got Garko or Shoppach struggling, he's got a better chance. But if CLE needs someone for 1st base, it will be Mills before Laporta, based on what I saw over the course of spring training.
Laporta may be end up being everything people hope and think he'll end up. But I don't believe it is going to be this season. The guy really hasn't seen that much time in the minors yet.
Masters said:
People are expecting LaPorta to be some super player, but reality is he's done nothing yet. He had a decent spring, but Brantley, Mills, and Crowe had better springs.Brantley Mills and Crowe had better springs? Huh? LaPorta hit .361. Mills hit .231
What in the world are you talking about?
Crowe hit .310 and Brantley hit .313.
Laporta averged less strikouts per at bat than Hafner, Shoppach and Peralta.
Laporta even managed 4 BB's. As many as Peralta in half as many AB's.
Laporta had a great spring! He had the best spring of all the young prospects.
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So you are saying that if Ben Francisco struggles and Matt LaPorta hits 20 HR's before half, the Tribe won't call him to pay left?
Ok...Sure.
LaPorta's future may end up being as a DH. But when he first comes up he won't be a DH or 1st baseman. He'll be in the OF until they make moves and ultimately make him a 1st baseman or DH.
Even if Hafner fails in his comeback and they call LaPorta up they will not make the 24 year old a DH. 31 year old Martinez would probably move to DH while Shoppach takes over the full time catchign duties.
LaPorta is as slow as my grandmother, won't play left.
LaPorta is as slow as my grandmother, won't play left.
Ted Williams was notoriously slow too...... I think he did ok in right.
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Masters said:
People are expecting LaPorta to be some super player, but reality is he's done nothing yet. He had a decent spring, but Brantley, Mills, and Crowe had better springs.Brantley Mills and Crowe had better springs? Huh? LaPorta hit .361. Mills hit .231
What in the world are you talking about?
Crowe hit .310 and Brantley hit .313.
Laporta averged less strikouts per at bat than Hafner, Shoppach and Peralta.
Laporta even managed 4 BB's. As many as Peralta in half as many AB's.
Laporta had a great spring! He had the best spring of all the young prospects.
Brantley Mills and Crowe had better springs? Huh? LaPorta hit .361. Mills hit .231
What in the world are you talking about?
Crowe hit .310 and Brantley hit .313.
Laporta averged less strikouts per at bat than Hafner, Shoppach and Peralta.
Laporta even managed 4 BB's. As many as Peralta in half as many AB's.
Laporta had a great spring! He had the best spring of all the young prospects.
You can't base judgement on spring ball based on stats. That would be like saying Cliff Lee is garbage because of his spring. Same as saying someone is a bad NFL player based on preseason stats.
You judge spring based on quality at bats, total play (mental and physical), etc. You don't get a credit w/ a hit if you hit the ball solid but it ends up right at someone. You're not having a good spring when your two hoping balls.
Again, I am not sayin Laporta is a bad prospect as a hitter. Not at all. But he in not ready for the big leagues and those other guys are far more ready. Physically and mentally. When I see Laporta, I still see a kid who was playing college ball 2 years ago. He may get there, and it might even be this year. But I'd temper my enthusiasm and expectation on him for right now. He ain't the next Manny coming up in CLE's farm system. He ain't even the next Joey Belle
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LaPorta is as slow as my grandmother, won't play left.
Ted Williams was notoriously slow too...... I think he did ok in right.
Ted Williams was notoriously slow too...... I think he did ok in right.
Ted Williams Laporta is not.
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It sounds like you're basing his entire worth on two throwing errors. If the guy couldn't handle the outfield, he wouldn't still be there. Especially in an era when Manny Ramirez and Adam Dunn can start in left field on opening day rosters...all he has to do is the make the routine plays and mash at the plate. And when you're trying to discredit his offense when he hit .361 with power, while drawing walks...I'm just not sure what you're trying to get at. Do we expect him to do for us what Manny did for the Dodgers last year? No. But he's an incredible prospect who can help us a lot this year.
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Ted Williams was notoriously slow too...... I think he did ok in right.
Ted Williams Laporta is not.
Masters said:
Ted Williams Laporta is not.Not talking about his bat...talking about speed. Is it that difficult?
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Brantley Mills and Crowe had better springs? Huh? LaPorta hit .361. Mills hit .231
What in the world are you talking about?
Crowe hit .310 and Brantley hit .313.
Laporta averged less strikouts per at bat than Hafner, Shoppach and Peralta.
Laporta even managed 4 BB's. As many as Peralta in half as many AB's.
Laporta had a great spring! He had the best spring of all the young prospects.
You can't base judgement on spring ball based on stats. That would be like saying Cliff Lee is garbage because of his spring. Same as saying someone is a bad NFL player based on preseason stats.
You judge spring based on quality at bats, total play (mental and physical), etc. You don't get a credit w/ a hit if you hit the ball solid but it ends up right at someone. You're not having a good spring when your two hoping balls.
Again, I am not sayin Laporta is a bad prospect as a hitter. Not at all. But he in not ready for the big leagues and those other guys are far more ready. Physically and mentally. When I see Laporta, I still see a kid who was playing college ball 2 years ago. He may get there, and it might even be this year. But I'd temper my enthusiasm and expectation on him for right now. He ain't the next Manny coming up in CLE's farm system. He ain't even the next Joey Belle
Masters said:
You can't base judgement on spring ball based on stats. That would be like saying Cliff Lee is garbage because of his spring. Same as saying someone is a bad NFL player based on preseason stats.You judge spring based on quality at bats, total play (mental and physical), etc. You don't get a credit w/ a hit if you hit the ball solid but it ends up right at someone. You're not having a good spring when your two hoping balls.
Of course you can't judge on Spring training....But it was you that brought spring training into the discussion by saying Mills had a better one......And To say a .231 hitter had a better spring than a .361 hitter is beyond ridiculous.
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It sounds like you're basing his entire worth on two throwing errors. If the guy couldn't handle the outfield, he wouldn't still be there. Especially in an era when Manny Ramirez and Adam Dunn can start in left field on opening day rosters...all he has to do is the make the routine plays and mash at the plate. And when you're trying to discredit his offense when he hit .361 with power, while drawing walks...I'm just not sure what you're trying to get at. Do we expect him to do for us what Manny did for the Dodgers last year? No. But he's an incredible prospect who can help us a lot this year.
...all he has to do is the make the routine plays and mash at the plate.
It's funny you mention that....Wedge was talking about tbis very thing when he spoke of Jhonny Peralta....He said he was underrated because while he didnt make the spectacular plays, he didn't make mistakes on the ones he was suppose to field...That along with his hitting makes him one of the best Shortstops in the game....Per Wedge.
This is all Wedge wants a player to do. Make the plays your are suppose to and hit.
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It sounds like you're basing his entire worth on two throwing errors. If the guy couldn't handle the outfield, he wouldn't still be there. Especially in an era when Manny Ramirez and Adam Dunn can start in left field on opening day rosters...all he has to do is the make the routine plays and mash at the plate. And when you're trying to discredit his offense when he hit .361 with power, while drawing walks...I'm just not sure what you're trying to get at. Do we expect him to do for us what Manny did for the Dodgers last year? No. But he's an incredible prospect who can help us a lot this year.
It sounds like you're basing his entire worth on two throwing errors. If the guy couldn't handle the outfield, he wouldn't still be there. Especially in an era when Manny Ramirez and Adam Dunn can start in left field on opening day rosters...all he has to do is the make the routine plays and mash at the plate. And when you're trying to discredit his offense when he hit .361 with power, while drawing walks...I'm just not sure what you're trying to get at. Do we expect him to do for us what Manny did for the Dodgers last year? No. But he's an incredible prospect who can help us a lot this year.
This is not just two throwing errors (and when have you seen a guy in the big leagues two hop the ball to the cut off man more than once). He was also doing that during practice. Practice. Both Manny and Dunn can gun a guy down at the plate too. That's a bit different than even being able throw the ball far enough to hit the cut off man.
Where in gods green earth did I discredit his power or drawing walks? Unless you mean me just saying Brantley and Mills had better springs as over all players, and saying a BA in spring training don't mean squat. It's spring training. What your BA is in spring training is like what your record is.
He' a good prospect, no doubt. But I don't buy for one second he'll help this team little this year, let a lone a lot. I hate to piss in peoples cheerios, but he ain't gonne be Longoria this season. I think expecting him to do as well as Choo did during the second half of last season is the best case for LaPorta this season.
I also stand behind "how much have you seen Laporta actually play?" I may be not be a MLB scout, but I've seen more of him than what is in baseball weekley.
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Masters said:
Ted Williams Laporta is not.Not talking about his bat...talking about speed. Is it that difficult?
Not talking about his bat...talking about speed. Is it that difficult?
So am I. Did you see Williams play in his prime? Is this the same era of players and athletes? Meaning you can't even dare to compare Laporta to Williams in any way. Is that difficult?
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Masters said:
You can't base judgement on spring ball based on stats. That would be like saying Cliff Lee is garbage because of his spring. Same as saying someone is a bad NFL player based on preseason stats.You judge spring based on quality at bats, total play (mental and physical), etc. You don't get a credit w/ a hit if you hit the ball solid but it ends up right at someone. You're not having a good spring when your two hoping balls.
Of course you can't judge on Spring training....But it was you that brought spring training into the discussion by saying Mills had a better one......And To say a .231 hitter had a better spring than a .361 hitter is beyond ridiculous.
Of course you can't judge on Spring training....But it was you that brought spring training into the discussion by saying Mills had a better one......And To say a .231 hitter had a better spring than a .361 hitter is beyond ridiculous.
That's the point. You can't base success based on spring training stats. You have to look inside and behind the numbers. When did they hit, against who, what was the situation, working counts, moving a runner (that doesn't show up in a box score!) how did they do over all as a player, etc.
You look behind the numbers, Mills did better all around.
To say that looking at a box score of .231 vs. .361 decides who had a better over all spring as a potential big league player now is beyond rediculous and Retarded. Did you think DA actually had a really good year for all of 2007 too?
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