Grossi: Browns Will Not Take Crabtree
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AdaM said:
I duno, Rogers to me is a guy who would love to rush the QB, he's just trapped in a NT's body.I think Rogers would be a lot more motivated at DE than NT because he would have more glamor on his job description and be able to go after the QB more.
I'd grant the glamour part. But he also just saw Haynesworth get that same glamour as a DT.
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Masters said:
I'd grant the glamour part. But he also just saw Haynesworth get that same glamour as a DT.Well he's stuck in a 3-4 he's gotta settle for DE in this scenario.
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AdaM said:
Well he's stuck in a 3-4 he's gotta settle for DE in this scenario.Except that in a 3-4 the NT is about the most glamorous on the line. 3-4 DE aren't exactly known for racking up the sacks or getting paid big. That goes to the OLB in the 3-4.
Masters said:
Except that in a 3-4 the NT is about the most glamorous on the line. 3-4 DE aren't exactly known for racking up the sacks or getting paid big. That goes to the OLB in the 3-4.and this isn't a one gap scheme, it is a two gap system. Read and react. So, why would you pay a DE big bucks when he isn't in a position to be an impact palyer. LBs are the playmakers in the 3-4.
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Masters said:
Except that in a 3-4 the NT is about the most glamorous on the line. 3-4 DE aren't exactly known for racking up the sacks or getting paid big. That goes to the OLB in the 3-4.and this isn't a one gap scheme, it is a two gap system. Read and react. So, why would you pay a DE big bucks when he isn't in a position to be an impact palyer. LBs are the playmakers in the 3-4.
and this isn't a one gap scheme, it is a two gap system. Read and react. So, why would you pay a DE big bucks when he isn't in a position to be an impact palyer. LBs are the playmakers in the 3-4.
This seems reasonable at first, but it completely flies in the face of what Belichick and other 3-4 gurus have done.
Look at New England's d-line: all 1st round picks, and Belichick's drafted depth guys in Rounds 2-4. Seymour was taken with the 6th pick in the draft and is currently playing on the back end of a lucrative contract extension. NE's other starting end, Ty Warren, signed a 5 year, $36M extension two years ago.
Based on that, one can only conclude that two gap DE's are worth huge bucks. The problem is that this year's draft doesn't necessarily have a guy worth that kind of money. Next year's draft definitely does.
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and this isn't a one gap scheme, it is a two gap system. Read and react. So, why would you pay a DE big bucks when he isn't in a position to be an impact palyer. LBs are the playmakers in the 3-4.
This seems reasonable at first, but it completely flies in the face of what Belichick and other 3-4 gurus have done.
Look at New England's d-line: all 1st round picks, and Belichick's drafted depth guys in Rounds 2-4. Seymour was taken with the 6th pick in the draft and is currently playing on the back end of a lucrative contract extension. NE's other starting end, Ty Warren, signed a 5 year, $36M extension two years ago.
Based on that, one can only conclude that two gap DE's are worth huge bucks. The problem is that this year's draft doesn't necessarily have a guy worth that kind of money. Next year's draft definitely does.
Aloysius said:
This seems reasonable at first, but it completely flies in the face of what Belichick and other 3-4 gurus have done.Look at New England's d-line: all 1st round picks, and Belichick's drafted depth guys in Rounds 2-4. Seymour was taken with the 6th pick in the draft and is currently playing on the back end of a lucrative contract extension. NE's other starting end, Ty Warren, signed a 5 year, $36M extension two years ago.
Based on that, one can only conclude that two gap DE's are worth huge bucks. The problem is that this year's draft doesn't necessarily have a guy worth that kind of money. Next year's draft definitely does.
I'd never say that a guy won't come alone here and there worth it. But just as you can point to NE, I can point to PIT which does not have 1st rounders sitting a DE.
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Aloysius said:
This seems reasonable at first, but it completely flies in the face of what Belichick and other 3-4 gurus have done.Look at New England's d-line: all 1st round picks, and Belichick's drafted depth guys in Rounds 2-4. Seymour was taken with the 6th pick in the draft and is currently playing on the back end of a lucrative contract extension. NE's other starting end, Ty Warren, signed a 5 year, $36M extension two years ago.
Based on that, one can only conclude that two gap DE's are worth huge bucks. The problem is that this year's draft doesn't necessarily have a guy worth that kind of money. Next year's draft definitely does.
I'd never say that a guy won't come alone here and there worth it. But just as you can point to NE, I can point to PIT which does not have 1st rounders sitting a DE.
Masters said:
I'd never say that a guy won't come alone here and there worth it. But just as you can point to NE, I can point to PIT which does not have 1st rounders sitting a DE.Well, Ytown's point was about the specific type of two gap 3-4 that we run, which is distinct from the Phillips and LeBeau versions of the 3-4. One of the Steelers' reporters at Scout.com wrote a good piece a while back about how the Steelers' brand of 3-4 allows them to draft d-linemen later. I'll try to dig it up (EDIT: Posted the article here).
Also, you're right about these guys not coming around often, but that's the whole point. According to Bill Parcells' "Planet Theory", guys who are both huge & freakishly athletic are so rare that you have to take one if he's available. There may not be a guy who fits the bill in this year's draft, but Mangini wouldn't simply pass on one because the guy would play 3-4 DE.
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McShay agrees with Grossi. He changed his pick and He now says Maclin will be the first WR taken. The Raiders.
McShay agrees with Grossi. He changed his pick and He now says Maclin will be the first WR taken. The Raiders.
And Flugel's been saying Maclin over Crabtree long before Grossi and MockShay.
Reasons?
1) Speed
2) Count HOW MANY of Crabtree's highlights (EVEN THE GAME WINNING TD RECEPTION vrs TEXAS) you can actually count more than 1 DB in the picture. That is BECAUSE Mike Leach used a 4 WR spread to prevent a defenseless conference from doubling his BEST WR. The NEXT level will be a bigger adaptation process than people think for him.
3) Gifted return man as well
4) Foot injuries are unpredictable. Remember Keith Byars' first couple years in the NFL? Neither does he because he was injured and his career didn't really kick off until his 3rd year if memory serves me right.
- Tom F.
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McShay agrees with Grossi. He changed his pick and He now says Maclin will be the first WR taken. The Raiders.
And Flugel's been saying Maclin over Crabtree long before Grossi and MockShay.
Reasons?
1) Speed
2) Count HOW MANY of Crabtree's highlights (EVEN THE GAME WINNING TD RECEPTION vrs TEXAS) you can actually count more than 1 DB in the picture. That is BECAUSE Mike Leach used a 4 WR spread to prevent a defenseless conference from doubling his BEST WR. The NEXT level will be a bigger adaptation process than people think for him.
3) Gifted return man as well
4) Foot injuries are unpredictable. Remember Keith Byars' first couple years in the NFL? Neither does he because he was injured and his career didn't really kick off until his 3rd year if memory serves me right.
- Tom F.
And Flugel's been saying Maclin over Crabtree long before Grossi and MockShay.
Reasons?
1) Speed
2) Count HOW MANY of Crabtree's highlights (EVEN THE GAME WINNING TD RECEPTION vrs TEXAS) you can actually count more than 1 DB in the picture. That is BECAUSE Mike Leach used a 4 WR spread to prevent a defenseless conference from doubling his BEST WR. The NEXT level will be a bigger adaptation process than people think for him.
3) Gifted return man as well
4) Foot injuries are unpredictable. Remember Keith Byars' first couple years in the NFL? Neither does he because he was injured and his career didn't really kick off until his 3rd year if memory serves me right.
- Tom F.
I think I like Maclin just as much or even better too. The kid is blazing quick. Makes people miss all over the place.
But as far as injuries go, remember, Maclin blew out his knew. There are injury concerns for both guys.
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Masters said:
I'd never say that a guy won't come alone here and there worth it. But just as you can point to NE, I can point to PIT which does not have 1st rounders sitting a DE.Well, Ytown's point was about the specific type of two gap 3-4 that we run, which is distinct from the Phillips and LeBeau versions of the 3-4. One of the Steelers' reporters at Scout.com wrote a good piece a while back about how the Steelers' brand of 3-4 allows them to draft d-linemen later. I'll try to dig it up (EDIT: Posted the article here).
Also, you're right about these guys not coming around often, but that's the whole point. According to Bill Parcells' "Planet Theory", guys who are both huge & freakishly athletic are so rare that you have to take one if he's available. There may not be a guy who fits the bill in this year's draft, but Mangini wouldn't simply pass on one because the guy would play 3-4 DE.
Aloysius said:
Well, Ytown's point was about the specific type of two gap 3-4 that we run, which is distinct from the Phillips and LeBeau versions of the 3-4. One of the Steelers' reporters at Scout.com wrote a good piece a while back about how the Steelers' brand of 3-4 allows them to draft d-linemen later. I'll try to dig it up (EDIT: Posted the article here).Also, you're right about these guys not coming around often, but that's the whole point. According to Bill Parcells' "Planet Theory", guys who are both huge & freakishly athletic are so rare that you have to take one if he's available. There may not be a guy who fits the bill in this year's draft, but Mangini wouldn't simply pass on one because the guy would play 3-4 DE.
I think the only real solid 5 technique DE in this draft is Jackson. I don't think he is worth a #5. But, you are right about not passing on a super talent who can play in a 2 gap 3-4. But that's a guy who is big, strong and athletic and can use his hands to shed blocks really well. For me, that isn't Raji and it wouldn't be Rogers unless he could get down to about 295 and keep his strength.
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and this isn't a one gap scheme, it is a two gap system. Read and react. So, why would you pay a DE big bucks when he isn't in a position to be an impact palyer. LBs are the playmakers in the 3-4.
This seems reasonable at first, but it completely flies in the face of what Belichick and other 3-4 gurus have done.
Look at New England's d-line: all 1st round picks, and Belichick's drafted depth guys in Rounds 2-4. Seymour was taken with the 6th pick in the draft and is currently playing on the back end of a lucrative contract extension. NE's other starting end, Ty Warren, signed a 5 year, $36M extension two years ago.
Based on that, one can only conclude that two gap DE's are worth huge bucks. The problem is that this year's draft doesn't necessarily have a guy worth that kind of money. Next year's draft definitely does.
Aloysius said:
This seems reasonable at first, but it completely flies in the face of what Belichick and other 3-4 gurus have done.Look at New England's d-line: all 1st round picks, and Belichick's drafted depth guys in Rounds 2-4. Seymour was taken with the 6th pick in the draft and is currently playing on the back end of a lucrative contract extension. NE's other starting end, Ty Warren, signed a 5 year, $36M extension two years ago.
Based on that, one can only conclude that two gap DE's are worth huge bucks. The problem is that this year's draft doesn't necessarily have a guy worth that kind of money. Next year's draft definitely does.
True BUT NE didn't switch to a 3-4 immediately upon BB's arrival. They did so when they experienced some injury volumes along their dline and things got thin up front. Ted Johnson was their starting MLBer back when they ran the 4-3.
IMO, Richard Seymour was prolly THE most unique draft choice for NE in the sense that he was a DT at GA with the build and athleticism to be a DE or a DT at the NFL level. Talk about your ideal 3-4 guy. It doesn't get ANY better than that. I thought he was the best downlinemen in the league on the defensive side of the ball for about 4 years until wear and tear caught up with him.
I don't know what rounds Pittsburgh drafted DEs Brett Keisel and Aaron Smith in or how much megabucks they make. I DO think their role in the scheme CREATES the ideal opportunities for Harrison and Woodley when sacks are needed off the edge.
- Tom F.
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Listening to "The B-Team" on Mad Dog Radio (Sirius) today, they were firing off headlines and making comments. They got to the one about Crabtree being a "not nice" guy and they TOTALLY lambasted Mangini (let me guess guys....you DON'T like the man). They went on and on about how Mangini doesn't like anyone with personality.
Of course, Michael Crabtree did come in for his visit and basically irritate everyone in the building. I've heard from friends at Tech that he runs with a really rough crowd and his extracurricular activities may be cause for concern. (Pacman, anyone?).
Personally, I am not bothered if red flags come up and a team with the #5 pick chooses to take him off of their boards. When Pacman Jones was at WVU, people KNEW he was bad news and woe was unto those that drafted him. Does this bother anyone if the "due diligence" resulted in the team being put off by a guy who could be a pariah?
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If you need someone for defense, who cares how much you spend if you really need the guy. where is C.j. Mosley going to fit into all of this, is he just here to back up?
DE- smith, william, mosley
NT- smith, rogers
when you look at it on paper we have some depth at DE but no studs, this year in the draft also lacks that.
moving rogers probably wont work, it sounds badass though.
curry is not the answer but an upgrade
orakpo could be Great in time
please of dear lord, dont draft Sanchez and not be able to trade one of our qbs.
Take Maclin, he has great all around qualities as a player. He and Braylon would be nasty the next 2 years,
also he could spell Mr. Cribbs of some kickoff duties since he will be playing every spot on the team.
Damn im getting excited, too bad i cant watch the draft, heading to Talladega at noon.
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If you need someone for defense, who cares how much you spend if you really need the guy. where is C.j. Mosley going to fit into all of this, is he just here to back up?
DE- smith, william, mosley
NT- smith, rogers
when you look at it on paper we have some depth at DE but no studs, this year in the draft also lacks that.
moving rogers probably wont work, it sounds badass though.
curry is not the answer but an upgrade
orakpo could be Great in time
please of dear lord, dont draft Sanchez and not be able to trade one of our qbs.
Take Maclin, he has great all around qualities as a player. He and Braylon would be nasty the next 2 years,
also he could spell Mr. Cribbs of some kickoff duties since he will be playing every spot on the team.
Damn im getting excited, too bad i cant watch the draft, heading to Talladega at noon.
Damn im getting excited, too bad i cant watch the draft, heading to Talladega at noon.
Wow! You lucky dog!
That race and Daytona are my two favorite races. Have a great time and be careful.
Do you pull for any driver?
My daughter has her prom and I Have to be there for the grand march at 6:30. So I think I'll just record the draft and the nationwide race and try not to hear any news until I've watched it all.....So much to do....So little time.
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Clint Bowyer is my racer for now, i hate how this shit has turned into other sports by having free agents now. I used to like ryan newman but something happened to him and his abilities. have a great time at your daughters prom, 10 more years I will be in your shoes.
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CRABTREE DISS OF RAIDERS DISAPPEARS FROM NFL.COM CHAT
Posted by Mike Florio on April 23, 2009, 8:43 p.m.
Receiver Michael Crabtree, who is already sounding at times like a guy who at some point will be publicly thanking his hands or doing sit ups in his driveway or nudging traffic cops with a car bumper or all of the above, made another ill-advised comment on Thursday.
The remark came during a live chat on NFL.com. According to RaiderBeat.com, Crabtree had this to say when asked about whether he wants to play for the Raiders (and, apparently, about whether he’s cocky): “I’m not cocky at all,” Crabtree said. “People talk, man, but I’m a cool guy. As for playing for the Raiders, no comment.”
Hmmmmm.
But the odd thing about this one is that the live chat currently contains no such “no comment” comment. But it does, however, contain a subsequent reference to the exchange.
Q: “Why did you say no commit [sic] to playing for the raiders? Does that mean you wouldn’t like to be a raider[?]”
A: “No, I’d like to play for whoever picks me.”
Yeah, right.
We’re starting to get the feeling that, come Saturday, this guy will be sliding like Aaron Rodgers stretching a single into a double on a baseball diamond made of freshly Zambonied ice.
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That last reference was classic.
I can see it now.....Kiper will be going nuts...Crabtree isn't picked by #15 and he'll babble on and on about it.
If Maclin sees any of this stuff I'm sure he just smiles. Crabtree is making him richer with every word that comes out of his mouth.
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Masters said:
I'd never say that a guy won't come alone here and there worth it. But just as you can point to NE, I can point to PIT which does not have 1st rounders sitting a DE.Well, Ytown's point was about the specific type of two gap 3-4 that we run, which is distinct from the Phillips and LeBeau versions of the 3-4. One of the Steelers' reporters at Scout.com wrote a good piece a while back about how the Steelers' brand of 3-4 allows them to draft d-linemen later. I'll try to dig it up (EDIT: Posted the article here).
Also, you're right about these guys not coming around often, but that's the whole point. According to Bill Parcells' "Planet Theory", guys who are both huge & freakishly athletic are so rare that you have to take one if he's available. There may not be a guy who fits the bill in this year's draft, but Mangini wouldn't simply pass on one because the guy would play 3-4 DE.
Aloysius said:
Well, Ytown's point was about the specific type of two gap 3-4 that we run, which is distinct from the Phillips and LeBeau versions of the 3-4. One of the Steelers' reporters at Scout.com wrote a good piece a while back about how the Steelers' brand of 3-4 allows them to draft d-linemen later. I'll try to dig it up (EDIT: Posted the article here).Also, you're right about these guys not coming around often, but that's the whole point. According to Bill Parcells' "Planet Theory", guys who are both huge & freakishly athletic are so rare that you have to take one if he's available. There may not be a guy who fits the bill in this year's draft, but Mangini wouldn't simply pass on one because the guy would play 3-4 DE.
I'd again agree with you. I just don't see that "planet theory" guy in this draft.
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AdaM said:
Masters this was reported as being overheard from Mangini's mouth while Crabtree was in Berea working out.First Adam, I don't think anything has come out of Berea. The only people at the workouts are coaches and yeam officials. So, none of them are going to say Mangini bad mouthed the guy because he would be gone.
Please believe all this is someones speculation and opinion. I don't know if the Browns like Crabtree or not and I don't think anybody else outside of Fort Berea does either. The same about Raji and his character issues or anybody else they are looking at.
Personally, I wasn't impressed with Crabtree's interviews. He is not a Rhodes Scholar, but he is a football player and probably no more a diva then Edwards.
I think about this. What is the organization plan and where does the team need to be at this time next year with needs? I don't want to have to go into the draft next year with needs at OLB, WR, SS, RB and Center.
Personally, I wasn't impressed with Crabtree's interviews. He is not a Rhodes Scholar, but he is a football player and probably no more a diva then Edwards.
he may not be more diva but he's a billion times more thug.
I think about this. What is the organization plan and where does the team need to be at this time next year with needs? I don't want to have to go into the draft next year with needs at OLB, WR, SS, RB and Center.
i feel pretty good about what they accomplished per your list on day one. just looking to see how you felt too, YTown.
time will tell on the rooks and Elam should compete at safety (didn't they try to get him from the Jets before but they matched the Browns offer, i can't remember now).
which leaves RB and you know how i feel about Jamal the stud. they'll likely bring in a couple of those to compete as well. so far so good?
**edit** saw your approval in another thread. good enough.
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This posting began with the following statements that Crabtree was interested in the Browns but the Browns were not interested in him. I think the Browns would like to select him, and I think Sanchez is their fallback option. So in refernce to the first statement, were you a Browns GM would you put out statements about how in love you are with him (if indeed you were)? You can't trust anything out of the front office from any team at this time of year.
Endymion said:
This posting began with the following statements that Crabtree was interested in the Browns but the Browns were not interested in him. I think the Browns would like to select him, and I think Sanchez is their fallback option. So in refernce to the first statement, were you a Browns GM would you put out statements about how in love you are with him (if indeed you were)? You can't trust anything out of the front office from any team at this time of year.whatcha gotta say now?
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@inspecta said:
I agree with the Peen, having Raji and Rogers means you have 2 guys on the D-line that you have to double team, which means 4 linemen will have to be used to block two guys, I don't care how bad our linebackers are, with one free linemen to block whoever else is rushing, that leaves a lot of opportunity for the linebackers to run free to the QBBut CLE just tried this approach, and most on here pointed out last year you can't run a 3-4 with 2 guys above 320~330 sitting on the line. It doesn't work.
Masters said:
But CLE just tried this approach, and most on here pointed out last year you can't run a 3-4 with 2 guys above 320~330 sitting on the line. It doesn't work.it might if you had some decent Backers behind them.
sorry so late on the reply, it's the best i can do.
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