Heisman Trophy watch
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- Yes, right. I'm sure. You're perfect at draft analysis. I mean you listed a bunch of picks you would have supposedly gotten right and a bunch the actual analysts got wrong. Clearly you're much better at this than the people paid to do so. Nothing selective about it. Just ANOTHER fan that runs the "I know so much more than Kiper!" angle...
- You admitted you didn't like a prospect because they are from Michigan. Great start at even pretending to be unbiased.
- If a prospect is being projected a #3 overall, #4 to the Jags, getting Heisman buzz as primarily a defender, I think it is safe to use the word "elite" when describing some of his attributes.
- I was responding to both you and Gipper, honestly...
- I don't believe you when you say you have watched every Michigan game he's played in then if you're telling me you've seen him make "very fee" game changing special teams plays. I can tell you one right now, he's elite at blowing up screens, especially WR screens.
- TJ Ward is not that great in coverage. I understand those positions may mean different things depending on the scheme, that was also more of a response to Gipper. Peppers is a hybrid space player. Depending on the coach, that might mean LB, S, or NB.
- Again, the PR thing was in response to Gipper. You're right, you'd have to be Retarded to take a player top 10 for their return skills.... Cough Dolphins cough
- I was comparing them in how Peppers might be utilized in the NFL. Again, hybrid space player. I never once in this thread said Peppers would be the #3 overall pick. I was saying he's obviously getting hype and being considered an elite prospect. That was to counter your statements that you barely see him in the 1st round...
That's your opinion then. Which is an opinion different than many draft analysts at this point. You think you can just grab another Peppers level player from anywhere. I disagree. Many would. Maybe it is your Michigan biased you talked about having earlier.
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I'll run through this again
1) Let's start with this. I've been reading about Peppers since we were recruiting him in high school. I've watched every snap he's ever played in college. I still read news on him now.
2) You're also disagreeing with numerous NFL draft analysts and reporters. If you think you know more than them, then so be it. I probably can't convince you otherwise. These people have him as an elite prospect. I'm sure you've watched him play more than them though.
3) Is it impossible to be great at a lot of things? Because we have him play LB/DB/KR/PR/and some offense means he can't be good at anything? Why?
4) Woodson was a great defender in the NFL. A great CB. But you know when he was at his best? When had had a DC in GB that moved him around to get them most out of him. That led to a Defensive Player of the Year Award. What I'm saying with Peppers is that, to get the most out of him, you'll need a creative DC. That doesn't mean you can't just plug him in a SS and have a pro bowl player eventually. It means that it wouldn't be utilizing all of his talents. Get it?
5) He can't be perfect at everything. He's great/elite at a lot of things, but he could improve his coverage skills. Does that mean he's bad there? No. Does that mean he can't get better? No. I already said that is a skill we haven't been having him utilize a lot. Your making it sound like he has terrible coverage skills and can't even be a SS....
6) CBs are asked to do different thinks than FSs which are asked to do different things than SSs.
7) Do lots of safeties return punts? ESPN's stats for NFL punt returns right now, the top 40 for yardage, list no safeties. He isn't just "another" PR. He's a very good PR. He'll get a lot of positives for that in his draft grades.
This example was brought up in Michigan's last game, and it makes sense (in regards to Peppers not being an NFL LB). Deone Bucannon was originally draft by the Cardinals as a safety. He was then moved into a hybrid LB/space player role. He's been doing pretty well so far. He's 6'1" 211lbs according to ESPN. Peppers is 6'1" 205 according to ESPN. Pretty close. I'll run through this again
1) Let's start with this. I've been reading about Peppers since we were recruiting him in high school. I've watched every snap he's ever played in college. I still read news on him now.
2) You're also disagreeing with numerous NFL draft analysts and reporters. If you think you know more than them, then so be it. I probably can't convince you otherwise. These people have him as an elite prospect. I'm sure you've watched him play more than them though.
I am not the one disagreeing with the draft analyts. You are. YOU said his coverage skills are suspect (tiamati agreed with you) I WAS of the impression that his skills as a safety were top notch....until YOU chimed in and said they weren't.
3) Is it impossible to be great at a lot of things? Because we have him play LB/DB/KR/PR/and some offense means he can't be good at anything? Why?
That may be great for college....but I don't think it helps his status as a pro prospect. At 208 lbs. he ain't playing LB in the NFL...except on very rare occasion where they stack the line.
4) Woodson was a great defender in the NFL. A great CB. But you know when he was at his best? When had had a DC in GB that moved him around to get them most out of him. That led to a Defensive Player of the Year Award. What I'm saying with Peppers is that, to get the most out of him, you'll need a creative DC. That doesn't mean you can't just plug him in a SS and have a pro bowl player eventually. It means that it wouldn't be utilizing all of his talents. Get it?
I get that Woodson and Peppers are not the same person. You may not get that. Just because they both went to Michigan doesn't mean Peppers is a clone of Woodson. That is something it will take years hereafter to determine.
5) He can't be perfect at everything. He's great/elite at a lot of things, but he could improve his coverage skills. Does that mean he's bad there? No. Does that mean he can't get better? No. I already said that is a skill we haven't been having him utilize a lot. Your making it sound like he has terrible coverage skills and can't even be a SS....
Again I am NOT the one making him sound that way...YOU are. I never questioned his coverage skills until you did.
6) CBs are asked to do different thinks than FSs which are asked to do different things than SSs.
Yes, ergo you should not be comparing Woodson and Peppers that much.. One was a CB, the other a safety. Hello. Read your own words.
7) Do lots of safeties return punts? ESPN's stats for NFL punt returns right now, the top 40 for yardage, list no safeties. He isn't just "another" PR. He's a very good PR. He'll get a lot of positives for that in his draft grades.
Again, you are arguing with yourself, not me. Clearly his punt return skills is the one thing that could get him some Heisman run, like it did for Woodson. It won't be enough to get him over Jackson, Watson, Barrett, McCaffrey....but it helps.
As I said.....I had eyes on him to fill a need for the Browns.....two needs...saftey and punt returner. YOU are the one that has instilled doubt.
This example was brought up in Michigan's last game, and it makes sense (in regards to Peppers not being an NFL LB). Deone Bucannon was originally draft by the Cardinals as a safety. He was then moved into a hybrid LB/space player role. He's been doing pretty well so far. He's 6'1" 211lbs according to ESPN. Peppers is 6'1" 205 according to ESPN. Pretty close. Is that what you want for Peppers NFL career? hybrid LB/space role player? If he were to come to the Browns, I would want an All Pro Safety, not Barkevious Mingo lite. I want Ronnie Lott or Ed Reed.
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Perfect by no means at player analysis. I'm not arrogant enough to believe my word is the end all, be all. But I have made cases elsewhere against the players I mentioned and for other ones we may have drafted.
I was cool with Trent, Colt, Robiskie, Greg little (thought he'd be a RB) and to a much lesser extent, Gilbert. I mean, I didn't want Manziel period so I was happy we didnt take him at 4. Justin was not the #1CB on my list that year (Roby) but I was willing to let it ride.
As for Kiper, I AM arrogant enough to say I'm not the T.V. personality he is, but I'm a better judge of talent. Keep in mind he was the one that had Clausen #1 overall in 2011.
As for Braylon. The UM thing was a waaaaay distant second. I know a quality player when I see one and if they have the motor and talent then university goes by the way side. First and foremost his hands were unsteady before turning pro - you've seen me harp on it here. The first attribute I look at for receivers is their hands, including consistency and catch radius. Braylon didn't let me down over the course of time.
I really don't give a shit what you believe or not. Since Harbaugh has come home I've taken a keen interest in watching many of their games as I can find. You don't want to accept that? Fine. I can assure you though my thoughts on Peppers have almost nothing to do with bias. -
OK Tiamati.....give us your full thoughts on Peppers...... Yes, I want a non-biased opinion. As I said, I was thinking all along that he could be one of the 3-4 players the Browns should consider drafting.
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I think he's an above average athlete that doesn't have the instinct for deep coverage and can be a liability if you run right at him. Which isn't his fault given his size. However he's disruptive at the LOS especially in the screen, East-west running game and as a 5th man rushing/blitz. (Bucannon-esque) He's a man with hair on fire blowing up screens. However, I don't believe he's as good in space against H-backs and receivers as he's being hyped I also believe its because people, not just UM fans, want so desperately to see him as the next Woodson. If you want to trust the stat nerds on this, Peppers missed just over 20% of his tackle attempts in 2015.
I see him as a better weapon NOT on defense. A top tier return man and package/gadget player on offense. He's not even the best DB on his own team at the moment, that honor belongs to Lewis. As many people like to say, he's a good 'football player' - but a complete defensive player? Not at the moment. His reads and recognition need to be a little quicker. But this might have something to do with being moved around at too many positions. If so you can see that being a chess piece sometimes hurts your effectiveness at the specific position your asked to play for that down or alignment. Keys become instinctive over time, some of the best defenders are cerebral pre snap but after that.... its just instinct and knowing your position in your bones along with the feel for how you cover with it. I don't see Peppers having that yet.
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Unless I missed something, didn't see a single snap from Peppers back on a hash. Saw him on more designed 5th man pressures from the strong side and weak side backer with underneath coverage assignments. Basically par the course.
Sound like an elite prospect to anyone else?
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General observations on the Heisman watch after this weekend:
I personally think now that Jackson, Watson, and Barrett are the 3 leaders. Though Ward of Houston could come into play.
The RBs: Fournette, Chubb, McCaffrey, all had below par performances. Cook did OK though, but he may now be lucky to be in Top 10
Chad Kelly and Seth Russell could still be in contention.
Some are also saying that Dobbs of Tennessee and Tribusky of NC could be coming into focus. And ESPN is touting Donnel Pumphrey of San Diego St. And Jake Browning of Washington is getting some run. ( I think they are just nostalgic for Marshal Faulk with their SDSU push) Maybe they are breaking into the Top 10, but not the Top 5 where Jackson, Watson, Barrett, Ward are in place.
If you want to talk Peppers, he did not stand out. He only had like 3 tackles vs. Wisc. Other defenders on that team had better games.
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More impressions on Heisman watch after week....6? This past weekend anyway.
Lamar Jackson idle
JT Barrett did not have a good day passing..only 1 TD but did have 137 rush yards and another TD.
Watson 266 yards passing, 4 TDs vs. Boston College.
But a couple of new faces have emerged: Jake Browning Washington QB 6 TD passes, 2 more running in UW's hammering of Oregon.
Trevor Knight Texas A&M QB. Aggies are 6-0 and Knight just accounted for 300+ yards and 5 scores vs. Tennessee.
Those could be the top 5 right now.
I know that Harbaugh want to insert Peppers into the Heisman race by letting run the ball. But that is being gimmicky....while it seems that his main talent....that of a DB is diminishing. He had all of two tackles and not much else on defense (not that Rutgers gave them any sort of reason to play well.)
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Gorsh, Mickey - please refer back to my mentioning that Peppers is better at non defensive things than he is being a complete defensive player.
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Gorsh, Mickey - please refer back to my mentioning that Peppers is better at non defensive things than he is being a complete defensive player.
Gorsh, Mickey - please refer back to my mentioning that Peppers is better at non defensive things than he is being a complete defensive player.
Refer back to my mentioning that he needs to be better at his defensive position than those other things if he wants to be a high draft choice in the NFL.
He needs to play safety and return punts. Not play pattycake on offense.
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Gorsh, Mickey - please refer back to my mentioning that Peppers is better at non defensive things than he is being a complete defensive player.
Refer back to my mentioning that he needs to be better at his defensive position than those other things if he wants to be a high draft choice in the NFL.
He needs to play safety and return punts. Not play pattycake on offense.
Refer back to my mentioning that he needs to be better at his defensive position than those other things if he wants to be a high draft choice in the NFL.
He needs to play safety and return punts. Not play pattycake on offense.
I'm agreeing with you. Merely pointing out my opinion aligning with yours in hopes that Woody is still lurking.
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Perfect by no means at player analysis. I'm not arrogant enough to believe my word is the end all, be all. But I have made cases elsewhere against the players I mentioned and for other ones we may have drafted.
I was cool with Trent, Colt, Robiskie, Greg little (thought he'd be a RB) and to a much lesser extent, Gilbert. I mean, I didn't want Manziel period so I was happy we didnt take him at 4. Justin was not the #1CB on my list that year (Roby) but I was willing to let it ride.
As for Kiper, I AM arrogant enough to say I'm not the T.V. personality he is, but I'm a better judge of talent. Keep in mind he was the one that had Clausen #1 overall in 2011.
As for Braylon. The UM thing was a waaaaay distant second. I know a quality player when I see one and if they have the motor and talent then university goes by the way side. First and foremost his hands were unsteady before turning pro - you've seen me harp on it here. The first attribute I look at for receivers is their hands, including consistency and catch radius. Braylon didn't let me down over the course of time.
I really don't give a shit what you believe or not. Since Harbaugh has come home I've taken a keen interest in watching many of their games as I can find. You don't want to accept that? Fine. I can assure you though my thoughts on Peppers have almost nothing to do with bias.Perfect by no means at player analysis. I'm not arrogant enough to believe my word is the end all, be all. But I have made cases elsewhere against the players I mentioned and for other ones we may have drafted.
I was cool with Trent, Colt, Robiskie, Greg little (thought he'd be a RB) and to a much lesser extent, Gilbert. I mean, I didn't want Manziel period so I was happy we didnt take him at 4. Justin was not the #1CB on my list that year (Roby) but I was willing to let it ride.
As for Kiper, I AM arrogant enough to say I'm not the T.V. personality he is, but I'm a better judge of talent. Keep in mind he was the one that had Clausen #1 overall in 2011.
As for Braylon. The UM thing was a waaaaay distant second. I know a quality player when I see one and if they have the motor and talent then university goes by the way side. First and foremost his hands were unsteady before turning pro - you've seen me harp on it here. The first attribute I look at for receivers is their hands, including consistency and catch radius. Braylon didn't let me down over the course of time.
I really don't give a shit what you believe or not. Since Harbaugh has come home I've taken a keen interest in watching many of their games as I can find. You don't want to accept that? Fine. I can assure you though my thoughts on Peppers have almost nothing to do with bias.
Well I can say I wasn't for Robiskie, because I thought it was a reach to appease OSU fans. But I was one of the last Greg Little fans... so... it evens out. I also hated Manziel. The "good" thing there is we have months of posts on here and we can see what posters actually thought.
I never said I didn't accept that you watched Michigan games. I still would have a hard time believing you follow them more closely than I do though. WolverineHistorian does have good content though.
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I think he's an above average athlete that doesn't have the instinct for deep coverage and can be a liability if you run right at him. Which isn't his fault given his size. However he's disruptive at the LOS especially in the screen, East-west running game and as a 5th man rushing/blitz. (Bucannon-esque) He's a man with hair on fire blowing up screens. However, I don't believe he's as good in space against H-backs and receivers as he's being hyped I also believe its because people, not just UM fans, want so desperately to see him as the next Woodson. If you want to trust the stat nerds on this, Peppers missed just over 20% of his tackle attempts in 2015.
I see him as a better weapon NOT on defense. A top tier return man and package/gadget player on offense. He's not even the best DB on his own team at the moment, that honor belongs to Lewis. As many people like to say, he's a good 'football player' - but a complete defensive player? Not at the moment. His reads and recognition need to be a little quicker. But this might have something to do with being moved around at too many positions. If so you can see that being a chess piece sometimes hurts your effectiveness at the specific position your asked to play for that down or alignment. Keys become instinctive over time, some of the best defenders are cerebral pre snap but after that.... its just instinct and knowing your position in your bones along with the feel for how you cover with it. I don't see Peppers having that yet.
I think he's an above average athlete that doesn't have the instinct for deep coverage and can be a liability if you run right at him. Which isn't his fault given his size. However he's disruptive at the LOS especially in the screen, East-west running game and as a 5th man rushing/blitz. (Bucannon-esque) He's a man with hair on fire blowing up screens. However, I don't believe he's as good in space against H-backs and receivers as he's being hyped I also believe its because people, not just UM fans, want so desperately to see him as the next Woodson. If you want to trust the stat nerds on this, Peppers missed just over 20% of his tackle attempts in 2015.
I see him as a better weapon NOT on defense. A top tier return man and package/gadget player on offense. He's not even the best DB on his own team at the moment, that honor belongs to Lewis. As many people like to say, he's a good 'football player' - but a complete defensive player? Not at the moment. His reads and recognition need to be a little quicker. But this might have something to do with being moved around at too many positions. If so you can see that being a chess piece sometimes hurts your effectiveness at the specific position your asked to play for that down or alignment. Keys become instinctive over time, some of the best defenders are cerebral pre snap but after that.... its just instinct and knowing your position in your bones along with the feel for how you cover with it. I don't see Peppers having that yet.
- I would disagree with your assessment that he is an "above average athlete." I would go a step higher and say he is an elite athlete.
- I would agree he doesn't have the instinct for deep coverage, but I would add we aren't asking him to do that and he probably isn't practicing it much.
- It is worth noting that Peppers gets into a position to make a tackle on plays most players would not, therefore even if he misses those tackles, it still disrupts the offense/ball carrier.
- It is very easy to see why people make the comparison to Woodson. Michigan. Elite athlete. Plays all three phases of the game. What I've been saying though, in comparison to Woodson, is his ability to be used all across the defense. NB, CB, S, LB. Just like Woodson was in Green Bay. That could be HUGE for a more pass happy, spread NFL game.
- "He's not even the best DB on his team at the moment"
1) He's not playing DB really. He's playing LB
2) Lewis may be the best CB in the country, so...
- I do agree that having to move around at multiple positions has impeded his ability to truly be elite at one position. He's constantly being praised for his ability to quickly learn, but he's had to do a lot in his time here. CB, NB, S, LB, PR, KR, HB, WR, QB. If he does come back for another year with Don Brown, he could dominate. But then again, I think his big value in the NFL is being an elite athlete that a DC can mold as needed, not necessarily whatever he does in college.
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More impressions on Heisman watch after week....6? This past weekend anyway.
Lamar Jackson idle
JT Barrett did not have a good day passing..only 1 TD but did have 137 rush yards and another TD.
Watson 266 yards passing, 4 TDs vs. Boston College.
But a couple of new faces have emerged: Jake Browning Washington QB 6 TD passes, 2 more running in UW's hammering of Oregon.
Trevor Knight Texas A&M QB. Aggies are 6-0 and Knight just accounted for 300+ yards and 5 scores vs. Tennessee.
Those could be the top 5 right now.
I know that Harbaugh want to insert Peppers into the Heisman race by letting run the ball. But that is being gimmicky....while it seems that his main talent....that of a DB is diminishing. He had all of two tackles and not much else on defense (not that Rutgers gave them any sort of reason to play well.)
I know that Harbaugh want to insert Peppers into the Heisman race by letting run the ball. But that is being gimmicky....while it seems that his main talent....that of a DB is diminishing. He had all of two tackles and not much else on defense (not that Rutgers gave them any sort of reason to play well.)
Again, he isn't playing a true DB role on defense. He is playing LB. And either way, nothing is diminishing. You're looking at box scores and have no idea what you're talking about. He didn't play the entire second half because there was no reason to. There really wasn't much to do in the 1st half either...
I'm sure part of Harbaugh wants to help Peppers in the Heisman. But at the same time using Peppers on offense is a legitimate game strategy that has worked well. It is a package that utilizes the talent we have on this team.
Ja.brill Peppers - Cleveland Brown OldBrownsFan, on 02 Jun 2017 - 5:09PM said: "No you are not the work of the devil but you are deceived by the devil." Who's got it better than us? Nooooobody! -
Gorsh, Mickey - please refer back to my mentioning that Peppers is better at non defensive things than he is being a complete defensive player.
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Refer back to my mentioning that he needs to be better at his defensive position than those other things if he wants to be a high draft choice in the NFL.
He needs to play safety and return punts. Not play pattycake on offense.
I'm agreeing with you. Merely pointing out my opinion aligning with yours in hopes that Woody is still lurking.
I'm agreeing with you. Merely pointing out my opinion aligning with yours in hopes that Woody is still lurking.
If it makes you feel any better, I have some level of respect for your opinion. I have pretty much 0 respect for Gipper's opinion on issues like this beccause he has been repeatedly shown to not know what he is talking about in the past.
Ja.brill Peppers - Cleveland Brown OldBrownsFan, on 02 Jun 2017 - 5:09PM said: "No you are not the work of the devil but you are deceived by the devil." Who's got it better than us? Nooooobody! -
Gorsh, Mickey - please refer back to my mentioning that Peppers is better at non defensive things than he is being a complete defensive player.
Refer back to my mentioning that he needs to be better at his defensive position than those other things if he wants to be a high draft choice in the NFL.
He needs to play safety and return punts. Not play pattycake on offense.
Refer back to my mentioning that he needs to be better at his defensive position than those other things if he wants to be a high draft choice in the NFL.
He needs to play safety and return punts. Not play pattycake on offense.
Yeah? That's what he has to do to be a high draft pick? I mean, the analysts disagree with you... but hey... you must know best.
"Play pattycake"? What are you talking about? Are we not allowed to utilize one of the best athletes in the country on offense?
Ja.brill Peppers - Cleveland Brown OldBrownsFan, on 02 Jun 2017 - 5:09PM said: "No you are not the work of the devil but you are deceived by the devil." Who's got it better than us? Nooooobody! -
As of last weeks games (updated 10/10), here is ESPN Heisman Watch List:
1) Lamar Jackson
2) Deshaun Watson
3) J.T. Barrett
4) Jake Browning
5) Jabrill Peppers
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I know that Harbaugh want to insert Peppers into the Heisman race by letting run the ball. But that is being gimmicky....while it seems that his main talent....that of a DB is diminishing. He had all of two tackles and not much else on defense (not that Rutgers gave them any sort of reason to play well.)
Again, he isn't playing a true DB role on defense. He is playing LB. And either way, nothing is diminishing. You're looking at box scores and have no idea what you're talking about. He didn't play the entire second half because there was no reason to. There really wasn't much to do in the 1st half either...
I'm sure part of Harbaugh wants to help Peppers in the Heisman. But at the same time using Peppers on offense is a legitimate game strategy that has worked well. It is a package that utilizes the talent we have on this team.
Again, he isn't playing a true DB role on defense. He is playing LB. And either way, nothing is diminishing. You're looking at box scores and have no idea what you're talking about. He didn't play the entire second half because there was no reason to. There really wasn't much to do in the 1st half either...
I'm sure part of Harbaugh wants to help Peppers in the Heisman. But at the same time using Peppers on offense is a legitimate game strategy that has worked well. It is a package that utilizes the talent we have on this team.
Again, my only interest in the guy is if he could be a potential Browns choice. Browns need DBs badly.....if he is as good as he has been hyped to be in the beginning this season, I may want him.. But he ain't no NFL LB....just too light. He needs to play safety. His NFL career will be at safety. I don't give a damn for the whole state of Michigan or what he does at Michigan...playing in offensive packages.
Doing all that gimmickry may help Michigan somewhat right now....but it does not help his pro prospects. Being the best DB he can be and returning punts is where his NFL future lies. YOU may be entertained by all the rest of that stupid shit he is doing.....and whether or not it helps that team is debatable (they have been hammering opponents....so no need there).
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I'm agreeing with you. Merely pointing out my opinion aligning with yours in hopes that Woody is still lurking.
If it makes you feel any better, I have some level of respect for your opinion. I have pretty much 0 respect for Gipper's opinion on issues like this beccause he has been repeatedly shown to not know what he is talking about in the past.
If it makes you feel any better, I have some level of respect for your opinion. I have pretty much 0 respect for Gipper's opinion on issues like this beccause he has been repeatedly shown to not know what he is talking about in the past.
And I have less respect for your opinion: because: A. you are as stupid a fan of Michigan as Steeler fans are stupid for that team. B. I am thousands of times more knowledgeable than you on every aspect of football.....except being a TUN lap licker. C. I am just innately more experienced and more intelligent than you on these subjects.
You have tunnel vision when it comes to your team. That's it. That is all you know. How can anyone who is only focused on one single aspect of this sport inure any respect.
I will be glad to have any independent person test us on any aspect of this. ..except Michigan football (of which I may in fact know as much or more than you do anyway.....at least historically).
I mean, face it....if it were not for the Ohioans associated with the Michigan program, they would be like, Indiana.
Schembechler: Ohioan
Moeller: Ohioan
Harbaugh: Ohioan
Woodson: Ohioan
Des Howard: Ohioan
If you took all the players that have made the All American lists throughout history....I suggest that likely over 50% were from Ohio.
Look at yourself.....you are a feckless fuck that is also from Ohio.
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