QB Questions
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Well said! It could also be said the only times Peyton Manning won Superbowls were when he had a decent defense in Indy and a great one in Denver. Most of the years he had great stats or an MVP caliber season - his teams never made it to the Superbowl.
Meanwhile, nobody has been passing for more yardage then Drew Brees the last few years and the Saints haven't come close to making the playoffs.
It would be nice to have a great passer like Brady and the defense that gave up the fewest points in the NFL like New England.
Balance....great offense and great defense, absolutely are necessary. Those various dynasties that were outlined elsewhere all had that. But, again, they all had HOF caliber QBs...and that is where you have to start.
Balance....great offense and great defense, absolutely are necessary. Those various dynasties that were outlined elsewhere all had that. But, again, they all had HOF caliber QBs...and that is where you have to start.
2 of the best QBs of all time (Joe Montana and his biggest fan - Tom Brady) were not first round QBs. Since you love tradition, Bart Starr was not either.
More recently (2016), the 4th round Dak Prescott easily outperformed #1 overall Jared Goff and #2 overall Carson Wentz. In 2014, 2nd round QB Derek Carr has outperformed these 3 first round QBs in his draft class: Blake Bortles, Johhny Manziel and Teddy B. Just to stay consistent, a few years ago - 3rd round QB Russell Wilson has outperformed the following 1st round QBs in his draft class: RG3, Ryan Tannehill, and Brandon Weeden. Then there's the 2007 draft where Jamarcus Russell was drafted #1overall while we traded up to draft Quinn in the 20s of round 1. Let's just say I've seen a lot of 1st round picks fail at QB while our setting on offense isn't exactly favorable for an inexperienced QB.
What we can do is play much better defense while making this an easier place to play QB as well. At some point in our existence here this shouldn't be easier said than done.
I welcome the only Defensive Coordinator to earn a Superbowl Ring in New Orleans while understanding Revenge of the Nerds is a sequel. "Come get some!" -
I know people like to think the science for evaluating QB prospects outside of the film room has improved a ton; but I remain reluctant to join that thinking. From the Indy Combines to all the scripted workouts that follow it to the highly entertaining Gruden interviews/chalk talks - there's something pretty huge missing in all of them. NFL Defenses.
Let's take a guy like Ja-red Goff before he should have looked Sca-red behind the 5 Matadors upfront in LA. The kid actually showed gonads and guts in the pocket taking countless hits all the while he got very little help from teammates. Anyway, all the pre-draft workout criteria last off season showed him throwing without any of the following challenges he was about to see on a piss poor NFL offense:
1) Pass rushers in a faster league hurrying throws and invading intimate space of QB while challenging mechanics and releases.
2) Defensive backs with better closing speeds challenging accuracy in the NFL's world of tighter windows.
3) Above and beyond a much bigger NFL playbook, now let's add all the complicated Defensive Alignments and schemes with well disguised blitz packages that can confuse inexperienced QBs pre-snap. Now let's look at the rookie world according to Kessler who had 2 first year starters at WR outside with a veteran the size of Tom Thumb working in the slot. In a world where there's constant route adjustments to coverages/leverages - how do we know a lot of our QB hesitations weren't coming from the 1st year starters outside messing up their route adjustments? That's why a team like Oakland went out and got a seasoned veteran WR with route precision like Crabtree so he could be a consultant to the younger WRs there as well as the young QB in between series. Here comes that environment around QB thing again.
Exactly where and how was this Cleveland environment anything like the utopian pre-draft workout environments? I honestly find a lot of things I like about Trubisky so I compliment him in saying he's an equitable prospect to that of Derek Carr (who was the 4th QB taken all the way down into round 2 of his draft class). Having said that, he only started 13 games so the disappointing supply of QBs for our demand doesn't change my mind about preferring defense at #1 overall (knowing he'll be gone by #12). Joe Thomas gave a terrific summary of what happens when you miss on a 1st round QB vrs a 1st round pass rusher. That's why I've been hoping we could find a bargain later than round 1. Maybe Davis Webb is that guy or somebody else.
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Last year I thought Dak would be a great pickup.
This year I like Watson for the same reason I liked Dak-both perform when the game is on the line. Forget all the "looks like a pro" stuff. I saw what I needed to see at the end of the Natty game and I saw what I needed to see on the darling boy from Ohio at the end of the NC St. game. One performed under extreme game winning crunch time and the other fell apart. Give me a winner!
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Last year I thought Dak would be a great pickup.
This year I like Watson for the same reason I liked Dak-both perform when the game is on the line. Forget all the "looks like a pro" stuff. I saw what I needed to see at the end of the Natty game and I saw what I needed to see on the darling boy from Ohio at the end of the NC St. game. One performed under extreme game winning crunch time and the other fell apart. Give me a winner!
Last year I thought Dak would be a great pickup.
This year I like Watson for the same reason I liked Dak-both perform when the game is on the line. Forget all the "looks like a pro" stuff. I saw what I needed to see at the end of the Natty game and I saw what I needed to see on the darling boy from Ohio at the end of the NC St. game. One performed under extreme game winning crunch time and the other fell apart. Give me a winner!
I think Bill Walsh thought the same thing when Joe Montana got nitpicked all the way down to him in a mid round. And then much lesser QBs like Rick Mirer and the allegedly "Pro Ready" Brady Quinn were first round QBs. Make sense? It shouldn't.
Brandon Weeden and Derek Anderson had bionic arms but neither possessed what it took to be long term starters. I've seen plenty of Qbs entering the NFL that were told they needed to get stronger. According to Tom Brady after a rookie season where he wore blue jeans to about 13of his first 16 NFL games - BB informed him he needed to get stronger in the weight room if he wanted to make it in this league. Land ho! I read Drew Brees crediting his strength and conditioning program for the ability to morph from the QB who once tempted SD to draft a QB first overall into a Pro Bowl QB with 12 wins the year Philip Rivers held out the length of training camp.
I'm sure Kessler can improve his arm strength especially while he's working with a well respected QB guru this off season to do just that. Along the same line, I'm sure this draft will have guys that are ready to go to work on the same thing.
It's popular for people to rip on Watson and credit it to many of the same scouts out there that once hailed Brady Quinn as the most pro ready Qb of his/adjacent QB classes. We could pull up info to support sides as easily people do it in political debates.
The danger of crib sheeting a QB beyond his uniqueness to that of a Tedford system QB stereotype is that all of the teams except the one that already had Brett Favre starting were unwilling to draft him before #24 overall. Before that, the 2 guys that bucked the BYU system QB stereotype were Jim McMahon and Steve Young when guys like Gifford Nielson, Marc Wilson and Ty Detmer couldn't keep starting jobs. So when guys start telling me Watson can only be RG3 or one of the other black QBs that struggled - I like to ask why can't he become another Warren Moon, Steve McNair or Donovan McNabb? Who says? Remember when Moon was too short which also carried the stereotype of what kind of arm strength someone that size could only have? He wasn't any different than Joe Theisman (who also had to begin his career in the CFL). Same with Jeff Garcia who made Pro Bowls for 3 different NFL teams he led to playoffs. That said, when he played for environments like Cleveland and Detroit - he blended in with stink.
It's popular to predict Watson will suck just like it was to discount Prescott or Wilson. And why? Hardly anyone is coming from a pro style offense. I heard that nonsense when our FO/Chris Palmer explained they weren't comfortable counting on a QB (McNabb) coming our of a Veer Option. It's almost as if there was never any such thing as Brett Favre coming out of a very similar offense at So Miss prior to stardom in a WCO.
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Balance....great offense and great defense, absolutely are necessary. Those various dynasties that were outlined elsewhere all had that. But, again, they all had HOF caliber QBs...and that is where you have to start.
2 of the best QBs of all time (Joe Montana and his biggest fan - Tom Brady) were not first round QBs. Since you love tradition, Bart Starr was not either.
More recently (2016), the 4th round Dak Prescott easily outperformed #1 overall Jared Goff and #2 overall Carson Wentz. In 2014, 2nd round QB Derek Carr has outperformed these 3 first round QBs in his draft class: Blake Bortles, Johhny Manziel and Teddy B. Just to stay consistent, a few years ago - 3rd round QB Russell Wilson has outperformed the following 1st round QBs in his draft class: RG3, Ryan Tannehill, and Brandon Weeden. Then there's the 2007 draft where Jamarcus Russell was drafted #1overall while we traded up to draft Quinn in the 20s of round 1. Let's just say I've seen a lot of 1st round picks fail at QB while our setting on offense isn't exactly favorable for an inexperienced QB.
What we can do is play much better defense while making this an easier place to play QB as well. At some point in our existence here this shouldn't be easier said than done.
2 of the best QBs of all time (Joe Montana and his biggest fan - Tom Brady) were not first round QBs. Since you love tradition, Bart Starr was not either.
More recently (2016), the 4th round Dak Prescott easily outperformed #1 overall Jared Goff and #2 overall Carson Wentz. In 2014, 2nd round QB Derek Carr has outperformed these 3 first round QBs in his draft class: Blake Bortles, Johhny Manziel and Teddy B. Just to stay consistent, a few years ago - 3rd round QB Russell Wilson has outperformed the following 1st round QBs in his draft class: RG3, Ryan Tannehill, and Brandon Weeden. Then there's the 2007 draft where Jamarcus Russell was drafted #1overall while we traded up to draft Quinn in the 20s of round 1. Let's just say I've seen a lot of 1st round picks fail at QB while our setting on offense isn't exactly favorable for an inexperienced QB.
What we can do is play much better defense while making this an easier place to play QB as well. At some point in our existence here this shouldn't be easier said than done.
Sure, you have a few outliers in terms of franchise QBs.....but, in the history of the NFL, at least recently.....the better, franchise QBs generally get drafted early. Its just a fact.
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2 of the best QBs of all time (Joe Montana and his biggest fan - Tom Brady) were not first round QBs. Since you love tradition, Bart Starr was not either.
More recently (2016), the 4th round Dak Prescott easily outperformed #1 overall Jared Goff and #2 overall Carson Wentz. In 2014, 2nd round QB Derek Carr has outperformed these 3 first round QBs in his draft class: Blake Bortles, Johhny Manziel and Teddy B. Just to stay consistent, a few years ago - 3rd round QB Russell Wilson has outperformed the following 1st round QBs in his draft class: RG3, Ryan Tannehill, and Brandon Weeden. Then there's the 2007 draft where Jamarcus Russell was drafted #1overall while we traded up to draft Quinn in the 20s of round 1. Let's just say I've seen a lot of 1st round picks fail at QB while our setting on offense isn't exactly favorable for an inexperienced QB.
What we can do is play much better defense while making this an easier place to play QB as well. At some point in our existence here this shouldn't be easier said than done.
Sure, you have a few outliers in terms of franchise QBs.....but, in the history of the NFL, at least recently.....the better, franchise QBs generally get drafted early. Its just a fact.
Sure, you have a few outliers in terms of franchise QBs.....but, in the history of the NFL, at least recently.....the better, franchise QBs generally get drafted early. Its just a fact.
While true Gips, can we stop pretending the Blaine Gabberts, Matt Leinarts, Ryan Leafs, RG3s, Cade McNowns, Akili Smiths, Jake Lockers, Mike Phipps, Brandon Weedens, Brady Quinns, Jamarcus Russells, Partick Ramseys, JP Losmans, Joey Harringtons, Kyle Bollers, and countless other bad first round picks at QB do not exist?
Nobody on this board used to have as much fun as you pointing out how many QBs that were drafted after round 1 went on to very successful NFL careers inclusive of SB Sundays. That is, prior to a recent QB prospect that played high school ball in Mentor, Ohio came along to change your fondness of those takes. Am I fair or right in pointing this out to you?
I welcome the only Defensive Coordinator to earn a Superbowl Ring in New Orleans while understanding Revenge of the Nerds is a sequel. "Come get some!" -
Last year I thought Dak would be a great pickup.
This year I like Watson for the same reason I liked Dak-both perform when the game is on the line. Forget all the "looks like a pro" stuff. I saw what I needed to see at the end of the Natty game and I saw what I needed to see on the darling boy from Ohio at the end of the NC St. game. One performed under extreme game winning crunch time and the other fell apart. Give me a winner!
I think Bill Walsh thought the same thing when Joe Montana got nitpicked all the way down to him in a mid round. And then much lesser QBs like Rick Mirer and the allegedly "Pro Ready" Brady Quinn were first round QBs. Make sense? It shouldn't.
Brandon Weeden and Derek Anderson had bionic arms but neither possessed what it took to be long term starters. I've seen plenty of Qbs entering the NFL that were told they needed to get stronger. According to Tom Brady after a rookie season where he wore blue jeans to about 13of his first 16 NFL games - BB informed him he needed to get stronger in the weight room if he wanted to make it in this league. Land ho! I read Drew Brees crediting his strength and conditioning program for the ability to morph from the QB who once tempted SD to draft a QB first overall into a Pro Bowl QB with 12 wins the year Philip Rivers held out the length of training camp.
I'm sure Kessler can improve his arm strength especially while he's working with a well respected QB guru this off season to do just that. Along the same line, I'm sure this draft will have guys that are ready to go to work on the same thing.
It's popular for people to rip on Watson and credit it to many of the same scouts out there that once hailed Brady Quinn as the most pro ready Qb of his/adjacent QB classes. We could pull up info to support sides as easily people do it in political debates.
The danger of crib sheeting a QB beyond his uniqueness to that of a Tedford system QB stereotype is that all of the teams except the one that already had Brett Favre starting were unwilling to draft him before #24 overall. Before that, the 2 guys that bucked the BYU system QB stereotype were Jim McMahon and Steve Young when guys like Gifford Nielson, Marc Wilson and Ty Detmer couldn't keep starting jobs. So when guys start telling me Watson can only be RG3 or one of the other black QBs that struggled - I like to ask why can't he become another Warren Moon, Steve McNair or Donovan McNabb? Who says? Remember when Moon was too short which also carried the stereotype of what kind of arm strength someone that size could only have? He wasn't any different than Joe Theisman (who also had to begin his career in the CFL). Same with Jeff Garcia who made Pro Bowls for 3 different NFL teams he led to playoffs. That said, when he played for environments like Cleveland and Detroit - he blended in with stink.
It's popular to predict Watson will suck just like it was to discount Prescott or Wilson. And why? Hardly anyone is coming from a pro style offense. I heard that nonsense when our FO/Chris Palmer explained they weren't comfortable counting on a QB (McNabb) coming our of a Veer Option. It's almost as if there was never any such thing as Brett Favre coming out of a very similar offense at So Miss prior to stardom in a WCO.
I think Bill Walsh thought the same thing when Joe Montana got nitpicked all the way down to him in a mid round. And then much lesser QBs like Rick Mirer and the allegedly "Pro Ready" Brady Quinn were first round QBs. Make sense? It shouldn't.
Brandon Weeden and Derek Anderson had bionic arms but neither possessed what it took to be long term starters. I've seen plenty of Qbs entering the NFL that were told they needed to get stronger. According to Tom Brady after a rookie season where he wore blue jeans to about 13of his first 16 NFL games - BB informed him he needed to get stronger in the weight room if he wanted to make it in this league. Land ho! I read Drew Brees crediting his strength and conditioning program for the ability to morph from the QB who once tempted SD to draft a QB first overall into a Pro Bowl QB with 12 wins the year Philip Rivers held out the length of training camp.
I'm sure Kessler can improve his arm strength especially while he's working with a well respected QB guru this off season to do just that. Along the same line, I'm sure this draft will have guys that are ready to go to work on the same thing.
It's popular for people to rip on Watson and credit it to many of the same scouts out there that once hailed Brady Quinn as the most pro ready Qb of his/adjacent QB classes. We could pull up info to support sides as easily people do it in political debates.
The danger of crib sheeting a QB beyond his uniqueness to that of a Tedford system QB stereotype is that all of the teams except the one that already had Brett Favre starting were unwilling to draft him before #24 overall. Before that, the 2 guys that bucked the BYU system QB stereotype were Jim McMahon and Steve Young when guys like Gifford Nielson, Marc Wilson and Ty Detmer couldn't keep starting jobs. So when guys start telling me Watson can only be RG3 or one of the other black QBs that struggled - I like to ask why can't he become another Warren Moon, Steve McNair or Donovan McNabb? Who says? Remember when Moon was too short which also carried the stereotype of what kind of arm strength someone that size could only have? He wasn't any different than Joe Theisman (who also had to begin his career in the CFL). Same with Jeff Garcia who made Pro Bowls for 3 different NFL teams he led to playoffs. That said, when he played for environments like Cleveland and Detroit - he blended in with stink.
It's popular to predict Watson will suck just like it was to discount Prescott or Wilson. And why? Hardly anyone is coming from a pro style offense. I heard that nonsense when our FO/Chris Palmer explained they weren't comfortable counting on a QB (McNabb) coming our of a Veer Option. It's almost as if there was never any such thing as Brett Favre coming out of a very similar offense at So Miss prior to stardom in a WCO.
To be fair McNabb,McNair did NOT throw double digit interceptions on one of the top college teams in football for 2 consecutive years. and Moon was kinda like finding a winning lottery ticket on the ground.
Watson does not compare to these QB's
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I think Bill Walsh thought the same thing when Joe Montana got nitpicked all the way down to him in a mid round. And then much lesser QBs like Rick Mirer and the allegedly "Pro Ready" Brady Quinn were first round QBs. Make sense? It shouldn't.
Brandon Weeden and Derek Anderson had bionic arms but neither possessed what it took to be long term starters. I've seen plenty of Qbs entering the NFL that were told they needed to get stronger. According to Tom Brady after a rookie season where he wore blue jeans to about 13of his first 16 NFL games - BB informed him he needed to get stronger in the weight room if he wanted to make it in this league. Land ho! I read Drew Brees crediting his strength and conditioning program for the ability to morph from the QB who once tempted SD to draft a QB first overall into a Pro Bowl QB with 12 wins the year Philip Rivers held out the length of training camp.
I'm sure Kessler can improve his arm strength especially while he's working with a well respected QB guru this off season to do just that. Along the same line, I'm sure this draft will have guys that are ready to go to work on the same thing.
It's popular for people to rip on Watson and credit it to many of the same scouts out there that once hailed Brady Quinn as the most pro ready Qb of his/adjacent QB classes. We could pull up info to support sides as easily people do it in political debates.
The danger of crib sheeting a QB beyond his uniqueness to that of a Tedford system QB stereotype is that all of the teams except the one that already had Brett Favre starting were unwilling to draft him before #24 overall. Before that, the 2 guys that bucked the BYU system QB stereotype were Jim McMahon and Steve Young when guys like Gifford Nielson, Marc Wilson and Ty Detmer couldn't keep starting jobs. So when guys start telling me Watson can only be RG3 or one of the other black QBs that struggled - I like to ask why can't he become another Warren Moon, Steve McNair or Donovan McNabb? Who says? Remember when Moon was too short which also carried the stereotype of what kind of arm strength someone that size could only have? He wasn't any different than Joe Theisman (who also had to begin his career in the CFL). Same with Jeff Garcia who made Pro Bowls for 3 different NFL teams he led to playoffs. That said, when he played for environments like Cleveland and Detroit - he blended in with stink.
It's popular to predict Watson will suck just like it was to discount Prescott or Wilson. And why? Hardly anyone is coming from a pro style offense. I heard that nonsense when our FO/Chris Palmer explained they weren't comfortable counting on a QB (McNabb) coming our of a Veer Option. It's almost as if there was never any such thing as Brett Favre coming out of a very similar offense at So Miss prior to stardom in a WCO.
To be fair McNabb,McNair did NOT throw double digit interceptions on one of the top college teams in football for 2 consecutive years. and Moon was kinda like finding a winning lottery ticket on the ground.
Watson does not compare to these QB's
To be fair McNabb,McNair did NOT throw double digit interceptions on one of the top college teams in football for 2 consecutive years. and Moon was kinda like finding a winning lottery ticket on the ground.
Watson does not compare to these QB's
Fair enough. How many of those QBs were capable of beating the #1 ranked defense of all time the way Watson did that? In 2 Championship games vrs that Alabama defense about to stockpile the first 2 rounds of the NFL draft - how many points did the Clemson Offense average under Watson's leadership? In order to compete in 2 consecutive National Championship Games, he had to do things like light up Ohio State's defense for 31 points or whatever he did to their playoff opponent last year.
All the while McNabb's teams either tied for 1st place finishes in the Big East or finished as a close runner-up to Miami/Va Tech - it was because he could not BEAT those teams in the Big Games in conference.
I don't remember Clemson competing for National Championships back when Boyd QB'd them. They had the strong defenses back then with 1st round WRs like Sammy Watkins and DeAndre Hopkins. Interestingly enough, the Clemson WR that scored 4 TDs vrs Alabama in the last 2 National Championship Games was Renfrow.
Prior to a HOF career with 4 SB wins, Montana had a 52% completion rate his JR year with 11 TD passes to 8 INTs while sporting a 54% completion rate with 10 TD Passes to 9 INTs his final year at ND. Not exactly the kind of passing numbers advertising the NFL greatness to follow from him. On the opposite extreme, you can see a Russell Wilson's nice completion % nit-picked all the way down to dink and donksies.
I'm not advocating for us to take Watson at #1 overall or even #12 overall. I'm just saying if he goes to the right situation like Montana did back when all the same questions were being asked by the NFL scouts - someone could have the same type of steal on their hands. You can't be a trainwreck at QB to beat Ohio State by 31 points before being the only QB capable of beating that Bama D. Above all, when Watson's margin of error was all the way down to 1 error = Bama wins, who stopped him from driving his team the length of the field for the go ahead score? That doesn't sound like the loser I keep seeing portrayed.
I welcome the only Defensive Coordinator to earn a Superbowl Ring in New Orleans while understanding Revenge of the Nerds is a sequel. "Come get some!" -
Tajh Boyd last two years of college
*2012 Clemson ACC JR QB 13 287 427 67.2% 3896 9.1 9.4 36 13 165.6
*2013 Clemson ACC SR QB 13 283 413 68.5% 3851 9.3 9.8 34 11 168.7
Deshaun Watson Last Two years of college
*2015 Clemson ACC SO QB 15 333 491 67.8% 4109 8.4 8.6 35 13 156.3
*2016 Clemson ACC JR QB 15 388 579 67.0% 4593 7.9 8.0 41 17 151.1
Statisically Boyd is the superior QB but regardless you can EASILY tell that these QB's are a product of enviroment and system.
It's not that he's going to be a bad QB but to look at him as anything more than a 2nd rounder is buying into the hype machine that is NCAA football these days. He has a chance to develop into a serviceable starter but he just does not have all the tools needed to thrive in the NFL at this point. He may develop them but he needs as much work as kizer needs.
Go ahead use this same comparative as an analytic measurement with other players and you can estimate player impact a little better. -
To be fair McNabb,McNair did NOT throw double digit interceptions on one of the top college teams in football for 2 consecutive years. and Moon was kinda like finding a winning lottery ticket on the ground.
Watson does not compare to these QB's
Fair enough. How many of those QBs were capable of beating the #1 ranked defense of all time the way Watson did that? In 2 Championship games vrs that Alabama defense about to stockpile the first 2 rounds of the NFL draft - how many points did the Clemson Offense average under Watson's leadership? In order to compete in 2 consecutive National Championship Games, he had to do things like light up Ohio State's defense for 31 points or whatever he did to their playoff opponent last year.
All the while McNabb's teams either tied for 1st place finishes in the Big East or finished as a close runner-up to Miami/Va Tech - it was because he could not BEAT those teams in the Big Games in conference.
I don't remember Clemson competing for National Championships back when Boyd QB'd them. They had the strong defenses back then with 1st round WRs like Sammy Watkins and DeAndre Hopkins. Interestingly enough, the Clemson WR that scored 4 TDs vrs Alabama in the last 2 National Championship Games was Renfrow.
Prior to a HOF career with 4 SB wins, Montana had a 52% completion rate his JR year with 11 TD passes to 8 INTs while sporting a 54% completion rate with 10 TD Passes to 9 INTs his final year at ND. Not exactly the kind of passing numbers advertising the NFL greatness to follow from him. On the opposite extreme, you can see a Russell Wilson's nice completion % nit-picked all the way down to dink and donksies.
I'm not advocating for us to take Watson at #1 overall or even #12 overall. I'm just saying if he goes to the right situation like Montana did back when all the same questions were being asked by the NFL scouts - someone could have the same type of steal on their hands. You can't be a trainwreck at QB to beat Ohio State by 31 points before being the only QB capable of beating that Bama D. Above all, when Watson's margin of error was all the way down to 1 error = Bama wins, who stopped him from driving his team the length of the field for the go ahead score? That doesn't sound like the loser I keep seeing portrayed.
Fair enough. How many of those QBs were capable of beating the #1 ranked defense of all time the way Watson did that?
Not to undermine your take, but the in-game analysis by Herbie was pretty spot on... the Nat Champ was a war of attrition. Clemson as a team ground down the BAMA D... especially the DL.
Watson capitalized on the cumulative impact late to be sure, but early his play was undistinguished. I think the 21-point 4th quarter was more a case of BAMA falling as it was Watson rising.
OK... maybe undermine your take a little...
"When you have a shared vision it is a lot easier to make unpopular decisions." - Paul DePodesta "When you win, say nothing. When you lose, say less." - Paul Brown Complete 2017 Browns Board Mock: http://thebrownsboard.com/forums/index.php?showtopic=46196 -
Tajh Boyd last two years of college
*2012 Clemson ACC JR QB 13 287 427 67.2% 3896 9.1 9.4 36 13 165.6
*2013 Clemson ACC SR QB 13 283 413 68.5% 3851 9.3 9.8 34 11 168.7
Deshaun Watson Last Two years of college
*2015 Clemson ACC SO QB 15 333 491 67.8% 4109 8.4 8.6 35 13 156.3
*2016 Clemson ACC JR QB 15 388 579 67.0% 4593 7.9 8.0 41 17 151.1
Statisically Boyd is the superior QB but regardless you can EASILY tell that these QB's are a product of enviroment and system.
It's not that he's going to be a bad QB but to look at him as anything more than a 2nd rounder is buying into the hype machine that is NCAA football these days. He has a chance to develop into a serviceable starter but he just does not have all the tools needed to thrive in the NFL at this point. He may develop them but he needs as much work as kizer needs.
Go ahead use this same comparative as an analytic measurement with other players and you can estimate player impact a little better.Tajh Boyd last two years of college
*2012 Clemson ACC JR QB 13 287 427 67.2% 3896 9.1 9.4 36 13 165.6
*2013 Clemson ACC SR QB 13 283 413 68.5% 3851 9.3 9.8 34 11 168.7
Deshaun Watson Last Two years of college
*2015 Clemson ACC SO QB 15 333 491 67.8% 4109 8.4 8.6 35 13 156.3
*2016 Clemson ACC JR QB 15 388 579 67.0% 4593 7.9 8.0 41 17 151.1
Statisically Boyd is the superior QB but regardless you can EASILY tell that these QB's are a product of enviroment and system.
It's not that he's going to be a bad QB but to look at him as anything more than a 2nd rounder is buying into the hype machine that is NCAA football these days. He has a chance to develop into a serviceable starter but he just does not have all the tools needed to thrive in the NFL at this point. He may develop them but he needs as much work as kizer needs.
Go ahead use this same comparative as an analytic measurement with other players and you can estimate player impact a little better.
I appreciate your statistical comparison above Caine. You did a great job with your argument! The only thing I'll nit-pick somewhat is those stats above reflect Boyd's JR and SR year up against Watson's SOPH and JR year.
Despite our debate here - I don't think we're really that far apart. I want us using our #1 on the best Defensive Player of this draft and our #12 on O.J. Howard. I don't want any of this year's QBs up in either of our first 2 picks.
I really don't think Watson is getting overhyped all the way up to either of our first 2 draft spots. I could very well be wrong about that; but I see him getting pushed down to either round 2 or 3 where I'd find him intriguing enough for temptation. Not too much different than I now feel about Webb.
If anything looked overhyped in the last 2 Championship Games vrs Alabama - Clemson's defense gave up 45 points when Watson was a Soph (that led his offense 40 points). This last year when Watson was a Junior, Bama scored 31 points which put the pressure on Watson to lead his offense to more than 31 points vrs the highest ranked college football defense of all time (according to ESPN radio the day after). He led his offense to 35 points which was good enough to beat Bama. To average 36 points against that defense under his leadership when he was just a soph and junior QB seems like an unparalleled accomplishment worthy of praise IMO.. As much credit as Clemson's defense has received/deserved for all their other work - they didn't give their QB very much room for error vrs Alabama in the last 2 National Championship Games their defense surrendered 76 points in.
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Fair enough. How many of those QBs were capable of beating the #1 ranked defense of all time the way Watson did that?
Not to undermine your take, but the in-game analysis by Herbie was pretty spot on... the Nat Champ was a war of attrition. Clemson as a team ground down the BAMA D... especially the DL.
Watson capitalized on the cumulative impact late to be sure, but early his play was undistinguished. I think the 21-point 4th quarter was more a case of BAMA falling as it was Watson rising.
OK... maybe undermine your take a little...
Not to undermine your take, but the in-game analysis by Herbie was pretty spot on... the Nat Champ was a war of attrition. Clemson as a team ground down the BAMA D... especially the DL.
Watson capitalized on the cumulative impact late to be sure, but early his play was undistinguished. I think the 21-point 4th quarter was more a case of BAMA falling as it was Watson rising.
OK... maybe undermine your take a little...
All valid points Tour! The side of the coin I'm arguing here is if someone wasn't leading that Clemson offense to consistently move the chains and convert first downs into more time of possession against an exhausted defense unaccustomed to anybody doing this to them - there's no such thing as the ability/chance to erase such a deficit we witnessed that not too many people saw coming (besides maybe the Ohio State Defense he did that to 1 week earlier). I was very impressed with his ability to refrain from the game ending mistake while exhibiting the poise to make all the clutch plays to extend the drives. I don't think that wearing out simply happened by accident.
I don't know how to describe this college QB any better than I could sum up Joe Montana after he led his team to a National Championship. Neither had the best TD/INT ratios but there was something uniquely special about their blends of vision, poise and accuracy when their margin of error got down to zero in order to erase the late deficits that allowed them to win the National Championship. There's an it factor there I can't articulate well at all. My favorite 2 QBs in Cleveland had imperfections they consistently overcame as they erased countless deficits for our Kardiac Kids.
As I told Caine, I would be okay with us drafting Watson after round 1.
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Flug, it's been a long time, but I hope our FO knows something we don't. As in pick #1, Gregg Williams should know his missing piece in his 4-3 front & he must pick a STARTER in Garrett or Allen. 31st in total defense.31st against rush.21st against pass..My question at Pick #12 has always been "can we afford a luxury pick" as in OJ Howard or Rubin Foster if say they know Crow is likely moving on & Fournette is still on board? Also could still see a Mitch at #12. The Loser of Hooker & Adams at S/FS. all at #12. may i raise you a Dramon Williams for a missing Joe Haden? Pick #12 & #33..we can't miss..Do we feel LUCKY or Luxury?
Browns & Buffett: Got to go fishin, Down to rock bottom again, with just a few Friends -
@ghoolie said:
Out of your fucking mind. We already have Black Tarkenton. Watson is shit, pure shit.
I'd be ecstatic with a QB who frequents Pro Bowls and wins Conference Championships like Tarkenton did during his Hall of Fame career just like I'm ecstatic to have a LT who made 10 consecutive Pro Bowls.
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Flug, it's been a long time, but I hope our FO knows something we don't. As in pick #1, Gregg Williams should know his missing piece in his 4-3 front & he must pick a STARTER in Garrett or Allen. 31st in total defense.31st against rush.21st against pass..My question at Pick #12 has always been "can we afford a luxury pick" as in OJ Howard or Rubin Foster if say they know Crow is likely moving on & Fournette is still on board? Also could still see a Mitch at #12. The Loser of Hooker & Adams at S/FS. all at #12. may i raise you a Dramon Williams for a missing Joe Haden? Pick #12 & #33..we can't miss..Do we feel LUCKY or Luxury?
Flug, it's been a long time, but I hope our FO knows something we don't. As in pick #1, Gregg Williams should know his missing piece in his 4-3 front & he must pick a STARTER in Garrett or Allen. 31st in total defense.31st against rush.21st against pass..My question at Pick #12 has always been "can we afford a luxury pick" as in OJ Howard or Rubin Foster if say they know Crow is likely moving on & Fournette is still on board? Also could still see a Mitch at #12. The Loser of Hooker & Adams at S/FS. all at #12. may i raise you a Dramon Williams for a missing Joe Haden? Pick #12 & #33..we can't miss..Do we feel LUCKY or Luxury?
Interesting Gumby! Totally agree about #1 overall. #12 is going to be really interesting in terms of who is still there. If somehow Foster is still there to my surprise, I could be just as happy with us taking him as I would be with OJ Howard. I'd even be surprised if Foster slid down as far as #10. I think O.J. Howard is going to be the offensive star of round 1.
You kind of caught me off guard about Crow. Are you hearing/reading he wants to leave? I'm still not a big fan of going running back in round 1. As for Mitch, his experience volume keeps me thinking he should be drafted in an equitable draft slot to that of Derek Carr in round 2. I'd be far more excited about getting him in round 2 than at #12 overall. I don't think we're any more ready for him than LA was for Jared Goff; while this fan base and perhaps Joe Thomas will be a lot less patient with another rookie QB than LA. It's kind of like a little kid wanting a puppy mentality all the way up until he realizes part of the deal is making sure he always takes the puppy outside when he wakes up, after school and before bedtime regardless of the weather outside. Sometimes, especially in Cleveland, the reality isn't always as wonderful as the idea...
After learning about Hooker's 2 different injuries and watching Lorenzo Jerome at the Senior Bowl, I get the feeling we can land a terrific Safety up near the top of round 2 should that be necessary. There's a lot of guys at #12 I could really dig. Like I said though, I really miss having an elite TE here for the length of time Ozzie Newsome spoiled us with. We never frequented the playoffs as often as we did in the 80s enjoying his important dynamic to our passing game. I have a feeling Howard could really jumper cable our passing out of park mode...
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Flug, it's been a long time, but I hope our FO knows something we don't. As in pick #1, Gregg Williams should know his missing piece in his 4-3 front & he must pick a STARTER in Garrett or Allen. 31st in total defense.31st against rush.21st against pass..My question at Pick #12 has always been "can we afford a luxury pick" as in OJ Howard or Rubin Foster if say they know Crow is likely moving on & Fournette is still on board? Also could still see a Mitch at #12. The Loser of Hooker & Adams at S/FS. all at #12. may i raise you a Dramon Williams for a missing Joe Haden? Pick #12 & #33..we can't miss..Do we feel LUCKY or Luxury?
Interesting Gumby! Totally agree about #1 overall. #12 is going to be really interesting in terms of who is still there. If somehow Foster is still there to my surprise, I could be just as happy with us taking him as I would be with OJ Howard. I'd even be surprised if Foster slid down as far as #10. I think O.J. Howard is going to be the offensive star of round 1.
You kind of caught me off guard about Crow. Are you hearing/reading he wants to leave? I'm still not a big fan of going running back in round 1. As for Mitch, his experience volume keeps me thinking he should be drafted in an equitable draft slot to that of Derek Carr in round 2. I'd be far more excited about getting him in round 2 than at #12 overall. I don't think we're any more ready for him than LA was for Jared Goff; while this fan base and perhaps Joe Thomas will be a lot less patient with another rookie QB than LA. It's kind of like a little kid wanting a puppy mentality all the way up until he realizes part of the deal is making sure he always takes the puppy outside when he wakes up, after school and before bedtime regardless of the weather outside. Sometimes, especially in Cleveland, the reality isn't always as wonderful as the idea...
After learning about Hooker's 2 different injuries and watching Lorenzo Jerome at the Senior Bowl, I get the feeling we can land a terrific Safety up near the top of round 2 should that be necessary. There's a lot of guys at #12 I could really dig. Like I said though, I really miss having an elite TE here for the length of time Ozzie Newsome spoiled us with. We never frequented the playoffs as often as we did in the 80s enjoying his important dynamic to our passing game. I have a feeling Howard could really jumper cable our passing out of park mode...
You kind of caught me off guard about Crow. Are you hearing/reading he wants to leave? I'm still not a big fan of going running back in round 1.
Ecstatic we got a GM that worked a Collins deal perfectly & got a 4 year deal done on the Proven player in Collins. For months during the season they worked on a Pryor deal, but as late as it is, it is more than likely we use the franchise tag on Pryor shortly. A 1 year Cousins "prove it again tag". Soon after Collins deal was done. SB moved to a Crow deal that broke down quickly per cleveland.com. Crow is a Restricted FA. Crow will be given a draft tender value as Tashawn Gipson was & we can match any teams offer. As far down as we were in games Crow on Avg. got about 13 carries per game averaging over 4.5 yrds. per carry. Did the coaches get the right evaluation they were after? Crows 24 years young & not a NFL beat up RB. But he's not a L.McCoy RB either. If we build'em, let's start keep'em..(duke still gets killed running anywhere between tackles)
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To be fair McNabb,McNair did NOT throw double digit interceptions on one of the top college teams in football for 2 consecutive years. and Moon was kinda like finding a winning lottery ticket on the ground.
Watson does not compare to these QB's
Fair enough. How many of those QBs were capable of beating the #1 ranked defense of all time the way Watson did that? In 2 Championship games vrs that Alabama defense about to stockpile the first 2 rounds of the NFL draft - how many points did the Clemson Offense average under Watson's leadership? In order to compete in 2 consecutive National Championship Games, he had to do things like light up Ohio State's defense for 31 points or whatever he did to their playoff opponent last year.
All the while McNabb's teams either tied for 1st place finishes in the Big East or finished as a close runner-up to Miami/Va Tech - it was because he could not BEAT those teams in the Big Games in conference.
I don't remember Clemson competing for National Championships back when Boyd QB'd them. They had the strong defenses back then with 1st round WRs like Sammy Watkins and DeAndre Hopkins. Interestingly enough, the Clemson WR that scored 4 TDs vrs Alabama in the last 2 National Championship Games was Renfrow.
Prior to a HOF career with 4 SB wins, Montana had a 52% completion rate his JR year with 11 TD passes to 8 INTs while sporting a 54% completion rate with 10 TD Passes to 9 INTs his final year at ND. Not exactly the kind of passing numbers advertising the NFL greatness to follow from him. On the opposite extreme, you can see a Russell Wilson's nice completion % nit-picked all the way down to dink and donksies.
I'm not advocating for us to take Watson at #1 overall or even #12 overall. I'm just saying if he goes to the right situation like Montana did back when all the same questions were being asked by the NFL scouts - someone could have the same type of steal on their hands. You can't be a trainwreck at QB to beat Ohio State by 31 points before being the only QB capable of beating that Bama D. Above all, when Watson's margin of error was all the way down to 1 error = Bama wins, who stopped him from driving his team the length of the field for the go ahead score? That doesn't sound like the loser I keep seeing portrayed.
Fair enough. How many of those QBs were capable of beating the #1 ranked defense of all time the way Watson did that? In 2 Championship games vrs that Alabama defense about to stockpile the first 2 rounds of the NFL draft - how many points did the Clemson Offense average under Watson's leadership? In order to compete in 2 consecutive National Championship Games, he had to do things like light up Ohio State's defense for 31 points or whatever he did to their playoff opponent last year.
All the while McNabb's teams either tied for 1st place finishes in the Big East or finished as a close runner-up to Miami/Va Tech - it was because he could not BEAT those teams in the Big Games in conference.
I don't remember Clemson competing for National Championships back when Boyd QB'd them. They had the strong defenses back then with 1st round WRs like Sammy Watkins and DeAndre Hopkins. Interestingly enough, the Clemson WR that scored 4 TDs vrs Alabama in the last 2 National Championship Games was Renfrow.
Prior to a HOF career with 4 SB wins, Montana had a 52% completion rate his JR year with 11 TD passes to 8 INTs while sporting a 54% completion rate with 10 TD Passes to 9 INTs his final year at ND. Not exactly the kind of passing numbers advertising the NFL greatness to follow from him. On the opposite extreme, you can see a Russell Wilson's nice completion % nit-picked all the way down to dink and donksies.
I'm not advocating for us to take Watson at #1 overall or even #12 overall. I'm just saying if he goes to the right situation like Montana did back when all the same questions were being asked by the NFL scouts - someone could have the same type of steal on their hands. You can't be a trainwreck at QB to beat Ohio State by 31 points before being the only QB capable of beating that Bama D. Above all, when Watson's margin of error was all the way down to 1 error = Bama wins, who stopped him from driving his team the length of the field for the go ahead score? That doesn't sound like the loser I keep seeing portrayed.
Yeah Tom - Watson no higher than second round- you know how I feel about him. You're totally in love with his playoff run- he wasn't so hot before that. And I will say this- Clemson only won that game against 'Bama because they ran a pick play- for the second time- that didn't get called. Put Trubisky on that Clemson team- he'd beat 'Bama too.
I appreciate your statistical comparison above Caine. You did a great job with your argument! The only thing I'll nit-pick somewhat is those stats above reflect Boyd's JR and SR year up against Watson's SOPH and JR year.
Despite our debate here - I don't think we're really that far apart. I want us using our #1 on the best Defensive Player of this draft and our #12 on O.J. Howard. I don't want any of this year's QBs up in either of our first 2 picks.
I really don't think Watson is getting overhyped all the way up to either of our first 2 draft spots. I could very well be wrong about that; but I see him getting pushed down to either round 2 or 3 where I'd find him intriguing enough for temptation. Not too much different than I now feel about Webb.
If anything looked overhyped in the last 2 Championship Games vrs Alabama - Clemson's defense gave up 45 points when Watson was a Soph (that led his offense 40 points). This last year when Watson was a Junior, Bama scored 31 points which put the pressure on Watson to lead his offense to more than 31 points vrs the highest ranked college football defense of all time (according to ESPN radio the day after). He led his offense to 35 points which was good enough to beat Bama. To average 36 points against that defense under his leadership when he was just a soph and junior QB seems like an unparalleled accomplishment worthy of praise IMO.. As much credit as Clemson's defense has received/deserved for all their other work - they didn't give their QB very much room for error vrs Alabama in the last 2 National Championship Games their defense surrendered 76 points in.
Dabo thinks he's the second coming- miss that one? Not accurate deep, and he's another helicopter McCown.
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You know who else had a lot of interceptions in his last season? Jameis Winston. More than Watson to be exact, and that was with one less game. Watson also threw for 16 more TDs. And whaddya know, Watson had a better completion percentage too over 110 more passes.
All this statistical analysis means nothing sometimes.
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Fair enough. How many of those QBs were capable of beating the #1 ranked defense of all time the way Watson did that? In 2 Championship games vrs that Alabama defense about to stockpile the first 2 rounds of the NFL draft - how many points did the Clemson Offense average under Watson's leadership? In order to compete in 2 consecutive National Championship Games, he had to do things like light up Ohio State's defense for 31 points or whatever he did to their playoff opponent last year.
All the while McNabb's teams either tied for 1st place finishes in the Big East or finished as a close runner-up to Miami/Va Tech - it was because he could not BEAT those teams in the Big Games in conference.
I don't remember Clemson competing for National Championships back when Boyd QB'd them. They had the strong defenses back then with 1st round WRs like Sammy Watkins and DeAndre Hopkins. Interestingly enough, the Clemson WR that scored 4 TDs vrs Alabama in the last 2 National Championship Games was Renfrow.
Prior to a HOF career with 4 SB wins, Montana had a 52% completion rate his JR year with 11 TD passes to 8 INTs while sporting a 54% completion rate with 10 TD Passes to 9 INTs his final year at ND. Not exactly the kind of passing numbers advertising the NFL greatness to follow from him. On the opposite extreme, you can see a Russell Wilson's nice completion % nit-picked all the way down to dink and donksies.
I'm not advocating for us to take Watson at #1 overall or even #12 overall. I'm just saying if he goes to the right situation like Montana did back when all the same questions were being asked by the NFL scouts - someone could have the same type of steal on their hands. You can't be a trainwreck at QB to beat Ohio State by 31 points before being the only QB capable of beating that Bama D. Above all, when Watson's margin of error was all the way down to 1 error = Bama wins, who stopped him from driving his team the length of the field for the go ahead score? That doesn't sound like the loser I keep seeing portrayed.
Yeah Tom - Watson no higher than second round- you know how I feel about him. You're totally in love with his playoff run- he wasn't so hot before that. And I will say this- Clemson only won that game against 'Bama because they ran a pick play- for the second time- that didn't get called. Put Trubisky on that Clemson team- he'd beat 'Bama too.
I appreciate your statistical comparison above Caine. You did a great job with your argument! The only thing I'll nit-pick somewhat is those stats above reflect Boyd's JR and SR year up against Watson's SOPH and JR year.
Despite our debate here - I don't think we're really that far apart. I want us using our #1 on the best Defensive Player of this draft and our #12 on O.J. Howard. I don't want any of this year's QBs up in either of our first 2 picks.
I really don't think Watson is getting overhyped all the way up to either of our first 2 draft spots. I could very well be wrong about that; but I see him getting pushed down to either round 2 or 3 where I'd find him intriguing enough for temptation. Not too much different than I now feel about Webb.
If anything looked overhyped in the last 2 Championship Games vrs Alabama - Clemson's defense gave up 45 points when Watson was a Soph (that led his offense 40 points). This last year when Watson was a Junior, Bama scored 31 points which put the pressure on Watson to lead his offense to more than 31 points vrs the highest ranked college football defense of all time (according to ESPN radio the day after). He led his offense to 35 points which was good enough to beat Bama. To average 36 points against that defense under his leadership when he was just a soph and junior QB seems like an unparalleled accomplishment worthy of praise IMO.. As much credit as Clemson's defense has received/deserved for all their other work - they didn't give their QB very much room for error vrs Alabama in the last 2 National Championship Games their defense surrendered 76 points in.
Dabo thinks he's the second coming- miss that one? Not accurate deep, and he's another helicopter McCown.
Yeah Tom - Watson no higher than second round- you know how I feel about him. You're totally in love with his playoff run- he wasn't so hot before that. And I will say this- Clemson only won that game against 'Bama because they ran a pick play- for the second time- that didn't get called. Put Trubisky on that Clemson team- he'd beat 'Bama too.
Very interesting since I seem to remember a "Fail for Cardale" chorus in harmony back when he was only 3 starts old punctuating a playoff run. A bigger body of work took care of that one. Which guy in this debate keeps cautioning why a small body of work may be telling us more than you want it to?
I'm not totally in love with anyone I want us to wait until round 2 to consider taking. I believe I posted the same thing about where I'd prefer us to take Trubisky in round 2 when I compared him to Derek Carr. So please inform me how I'm being unfair to 1 of those guys only. If you want to take that as a personal insult, that's a guilt trip I'm not taking. I'm just merely trying to encourage people to keep more of an open mind about Watson if he falls where I expect him to. Expecting Watson to fall out of round 1 means I'm cognizant of imperfections.
If Trubisky didn't choose Ohio State because he didn't think he was as good as Barrett, you don't have to blame Watson, me or Barrett for that one. In fact, he didn't even beat out whoever played QB at North Carolina - which confined him to only starting 1 year in the ACC. I have zero to do with all that. I'm just the one willing to wonder how any QB that will be the answer to all our prayers could possibly be held hostage to such things I mentioned. You're stuck on pause with he's from Mentor, Ohio so you're here to slap a tuxedo and cologne on his shit after you give it a thorough polish.
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