QB Questions
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I'll answer you with this Tom
I'm 100% with Ghoolie on this one- Watson will suck as an NFL qb
My qb pecking order as of today-
Mitch
Kizer
Mahomes
Watson
Kelly
You didn't answer me. How many QBs that could only start 1 year in the ACC went on to become NFL franchise saviors?
Ghoolie's franchise QB of choice last year was Paxton Lynch so he'll be thrilled to see 1 Cleveland fan still takes his draft advice very serious. I don't want any QB 1st in this draft. I want defense but I'm trying to keep somewhat of an open mind for one maybe at #12 overall or later. I'm not wild about this QB draft class so I run hot and cold with the open mind thing.
Now to answer your question. The AFC Champions gave up the fewest points in the NFL this year, which helped them go 3-1 without Brady. The previous AFC Champions beat NE 20-18 before Von Miller and Co beat down Cam Newton 24-10 in the Superbowl. Green Bay lost 44-21 because they didn't play defense while Atlanta pressured Rodgers, caused turnovers and stopped the run.
Our defense finished ranked 31st in our 1-15 season.
You didn't answer me. How many QBs that could only start 1 year in the ACC went on to become NFL franchise saviors?
Ghoolie's franchise QB of choice last year was Paxton Lynch so he'll be thrilled to see 1 Cleveland fan still takes his draft advice very serious. I don't want any QB 1st in this draft. I want defense but I'm trying to keep somewhat of an open mind for one maybe at #12 overall or later. I'm not wild about this QB draft class so I run hot and cold with the open mind thing.
Now to answer your question. The AFC Champions gave up the fewest points in the NFL this year, which helped them go 3-1 without Brady. The previous AFC Champions beat NE 20-18 before Von Miller and Co beat down Cam Newton 24-10 in the Superbowl. Green Bay lost 44-21 because they didn't play defense while Atlanta pressured Rodgers, caused turnovers and stopped the run.
Our defense finished ranked 31st in our 1-15 season.
Sure, and Garrett is gonna miraculously make us a top 10 defense? Just add Allen, Foster, Hooker, and a few others to the list, and I'll believe it. Garrett will make the Browns good enough this coming season so we'll have NO CHANCE of drafting that super stud qb in the 2018 draft short of doing a Rams\Eagles sell the ranch to get him- and even that may not be enough if an Andrew Luck level prospect surfaces. Gip pointed out by that line of thinking, the rest of the defense is complete doo-doo, and needs replacing. Thanks for agreeing when you pointed out Von Miller AND Co. To win it all you better have a TEAM of defensive studs. Miller compliments the rest of the great players they have- he's not the whole defense. He's also getting paid like a franchise qb. Yup, and Denver got knocked out of the playoffs because their qb sucks. New England's D is greater than the sum of it's parts- so until I see proof Sashi and Depodesta can draft like the Patriots- I'm not going to hold my breath.
Regarding your qb protest- One and IIRC it was Newton. There's a second time for everything. To be fair- the grades on Watson are all over the map- remind you of our former party boy qb? Third round talent per some playoff teams? Walter Football shares my opinion that predates this little blurb.
"In this draft analyst's opinion, I would grade Watson as a third-round pick for the 2017 NFL Draft. 1) Watson has been off with his accuracy this year, displaying poor ball placement, especially when going downfield. He has missed a lot of potential touchdowns as a result. Watson's performance against Louisville confirmed the accuracy and ball-placement problems we've seen all season. He hasn't dominated, and his play is not that of a top quarterback prospect. 2) All of this illustrates that Watson still has room for improvement with his field vision, ball placement, and accuracy. He did finish the regular season playing better, but that doesn't make up for the struggles in the first two-thirds of the season.Read more at http://walterfootball.com/nfldraftrumormill#hkfDrsSaRzWlXDC5.99"
If you think Watson's performance in the playoffs is something special- go look up Vince Young's terrific run in the BCS. -
You didn't answer me. How many QBs that could only start 1 year in the ACC went on to become NFL franchise saviors?
Ghoolie's franchise QB of choice last year was Paxton Lynch so he'll be thrilled to see 1 Cleveland fan still takes his draft advice very serious. I don't want any QB 1st in this draft. I want defense but I'm trying to keep somewhat of an open mind for one maybe at #12 overall or later. I'm not wild about this QB draft class so I run hot and cold with the open mind thing.
Now to answer your question. The AFC Champions gave up the fewest points in the NFL this year, which helped them go 3-1 without Brady. The previous AFC Champions beat NE 20-18 before Von Miller and Co beat down Cam Newton 24-10 in the Superbowl. Green Bay lost 44-21 because they didn't play defense while Atlanta pressured Rodgers, caused turnovers and stopped the run.
Our defense finished ranked 31st in our 1-15 season.
Sure, and Garrett is gonna miraculously make us a top 10 defense? Just add Allen, Foster, Hooker, and a few others to the list, and I'll believe it. Garrett will make the Browns good enough this coming season so we'll have NO CHANCE of drafting that super stud qb in the 2018 draft short of doing a Rams\Eagles sell the ranch to get him- and even that may not be enough if an Andrew Luck level prospect surfaces. Gip pointed out by that line of thinking, the rest of the defense is complete doo-doo, and needs replacing. Thanks for agreeing when you pointed out Von Miller AND Co. To win it all you better have a TEAM of defensive studs. Miller compliments the rest of the great players they have- he's not the whole defense. He's also getting paid like a franchise qb. Yup, and Denver got knocked out of the playoffs because their qb sucks. New England's D is greater than the sum of it's parts- so until I see proof Sashi and Depodesta can draft like the Patriots- I'm not going to hold my breath.
Regarding your qb protest- One and IIRC it was Newton. There's a second time for everything. To be fair- the grades on Watson are all over the map- remind you of our former party boy qb? Third round talent per some playoff teams? Walter Football shares my opinion that predates this little blurb.
"In this draft analyst's opinion, I would grade Watson as a third-round pick for the 2017 NFL Draft. 1) Watson has been off with his accuracy this year, displaying poor ball placement, especially when going downfield. He has missed a lot of potential touchdowns as a result. Watson's performance against Louisville confirmed the accuracy and ball-placement problems we've seen all season. He hasn't dominated, and his play is not that of a top quarterback prospect. 2) All of this illustrates that Watson still has room for improvement with his field vision, ball placement, and accuracy. He did finish the regular season playing better, but that doesn't make up for the struggles in the first two-thirds of the season.Read more at http://walterfootball.com/nfldraftrumormill#hkfDrsSaRzWlXDC5.99"
If you think Watson's performance in the playoffs is something special- go look up Vince Young's terrific run in the BCS.Sure, and Garrett is gonna miraculously make us a top 10 defense?
You STILL didn't answer my question so I'll ask you a 3rd time. How many QBs that could only start 1 year in the ACC went on to become NFL franchise saviors?
I don't want a QB at #1 overall. You do. I've been looking for alternatives to that.
While I agree we need a franchise QB - I don't have enough evidence this draft has one at #1 overall. Therefore, I think we should take advantage of our ideal chance(s) to address our 31st ranked defense (which included us ranking last at sacking the QB). We cannot afford to flush the 1st overall pick down the toilet.
I welcome the only Defensive Coordinator to earn a Superbowl Ring in New Orleans while understanding Revenge of the Nerds is a sequel. "Come get some!" -
If we go with MT at number 1 then you keep Kessler as the backup and Josh McCown as the player coach third string.
WSS
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"This situation is very similar to what the Bears are in right now. They have a lot of needs, quarterback being one of them. Like the 2014 group, this year doesn’t have a QB that screams “future star”. Neither Mitch Trubisky, DeShone Kizer nor Deshaun Watson are close enough to being “sure-things”. All three have enough drawbacks that make them not worthy of being a true value pick in the top five. With the roster they have right now, the Bears cannot afford to reach for a position. They need to go with the best available value in every round. That strategy does not involve picking a quarterback in the first round. Instead, they need an elite defensive prospect."
That pretty well sums it up for Cleveland. Reach and be Jax or take that 2nd chance to get immediate defensive pressure.
That pretty well sums it up for Cleveland. Reach and be Jax or take that 2nd chance to get immediate defensive pressure.
Yes, a choice between Courtney Brown and Aaron Rodgers.
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I'll answer you with this Tom
I'm 100% with Ghoolie on this one- Watson will suck as an NFL qb
My qb pecking order as of today-
Mitch
Kizer
Mahomes
Watson
Kelly
You didn't answer me. How many QBs that could only start 1 year in the ACC went on to become NFL franchise saviors?
Ghoolie's franchise QB of choice last year was Paxton Lynch so he'll be thrilled to see 1 Cleveland fan still takes his draft advice very serious. I don't want any QB 1st in this draft. I want defense but I'm trying to keep somewhat of an open mind for one maybe at #12 overall or later. I'm not wild about this QB draft class so I run hot and cold with the open mind thing.
Now to answer your question. The AFC Champions gave up the fewest points in the NFL this year, which helped them go 3-1 without Brady. The previous AFC Champions beat NE 20-18 before Von Miller and Co beat down Cam Newton 24-10 in the Superbowl. Green Bay lost 44-21 because they didn't play defense while Atlanta pressured Rodgers, caused turnovers and stopped the run.
Our defense finished ranked 31st in our 1-15 season.
You didn't answer me. How many QBs that could only start 1 year in the ACC went on to become NFL franchise saviors?
Ghoolie's franchise QB of choice last year was Paxton Lynch so he'll be thrilled to see 1 Cleveland fan still takes his draft advice very serious. I don't want any QB 1st in this draft. I want defense but I'm trying to keep somewhat of an open mind for one maybe at #12 overall or later. I'm not wild about this QB draft class so I run hot and cold with the open mind thing.
Now to answer your question. The AFC Champions gave up the fewest points in the NFL this year, which helped them go 3-1 without Brady. The previous AFC Champions beat NE 20-18 before Von Miller and Co beat down Cam Newton 24-10 in the Superbowl. Green Bay lost 44-21 because they didn't play defense while Atlanta pressured Rodgers, caused turnovers and stopped the run.
Our defense finished ranked 31st in our 1-15 season.
I don't think anyone is saying that the Browns defense should not be given a huge talent boost.
That is why using as many as 3 of our first 4 picks on defense should not be out of the realm of contemplation.
But, the fact is, QB is THE most important on a football team.....and is the position on the Browns that has perhaps the biggest dearth of talent.
And, give the fact, in my opinion, that the guy I am wanting them to take, is to me, the best QB prospect that has come out in the last 2 years....and likely will also be that in a 3 year period, given what may be available next year.
So....you go with the best prospect....at the position of greatest need.
This is clearly NOT a reach in my mind. To me, there are other players of potentially equal value to the guy many here seem to be advocating for (Garrett)....that we can get a bit later. There is NO ONE of potential equal value that will come out over a 3 year period than the guy I want.
So there is your choice.
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Sure, and Garrett is gonna miraculously make us a top 10 defense?
You STILL didn't answer my question so I'll ask you a 3rd time. How many QBs that could only start 1 year in the ACC went on to become NFL franchise saviors?
I don't want a QB at #1 overall. You do. I've been looking for alternatives to that.
While I agree we need a franchise QB - I don't have enough evidence this draft has one at #1 overall. Therefore, I think we should take advantage of our ideal chance(s) to address our 31st ranked defense (which included us ranking last at sacking the QB). We cannot afford to flush the 1st overall pick down the toilet.
You STILL didn't answer my question so I'll ask you a 3rd time. How many QBs that could only start 1 year in the ACC went on to become NFL franchise saviors?
Maybe the answer is simply: We don't know. I don't know the college careers of every QB. But maybe this: Russell Wilson, played at NC St. and Wisc. How about Phillip Rivers, also NC St. Or, how about Teddy Twatwater...he played in the ACC. Or how about Matt Ryan. Jameis Winston. all ACC guys. You want to go back in history? Sonny Jurgenson, Duke guy. Marino played at Pitt...currently ACC, but not then, Boomer Esiason...ACC then....but not now. Michael Vick....Va. Tech is ACC.
Pick who you like.
I don't want a QB at #1 overall. You do. I've been looking for alternatives to that.
While I agree we need a franchise QB - I don't have enough evidence this draft has one at #1 overall. Therefore, I think we should take advantage of our ideal chance(s) to address our 31st ranked defense (which included us ranking last at sacking the QB). We cannot afford to flush the 1st overall pick down the toilet.
If you want to take that tact Tom,...then I think that you need to advocate that the Browns use all four of their picks in rounds 1 and 2 on defense. It WILL take that many to give this defense the talent and improvement that you want to see it given.
You will have to eschew any interest in improving the offense...unless we get lucky in the lower rounds. You will have to settle on another year of RG and Kessler.
Is that what you want? If so, say so.
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Against the Ravens, it seemed like Kessler was playing a different game than the week before. I remember he seemed more rattled and trying to force the ball to get some of the "chunk" plays instead of taking what was there like he did the previous week. But, this could be biased because I don't want to spend the first overall pick on a QB and I'm trying to justify that
Also, a whole offseason working with the receivers should help out with that.I just had the chance to watch the NC vs. Pitt game. There's good and bad with Trubisky. Good: he does have a big arm and made some very nice throws. He did great in the 4th quarter for the comeback victory, impressive the way he was able to march the team downfield. Bad: he tends to lock on to receivers, I didn't see him move his head as much as I would like and he took some sacks as a result of waiting for his locked-on target to get open. He also gets inaccurate when he's under pressure, not a good trait for a Browns QB to have. Switzer looked great in that game though. In any case, that was one game, I'll try watching the others that were suggested to see if I can see what others see, but so far I'm still skeptical that he's worth a #1. I don't see a franchise savior yet. Another point, Gipper said it himself: NC is not a football powerhouse. The fact that Trubisky couldn't win the starting job until his senior year in a non-football powerhouse is worrisome, what makes you think he can be an NFL starter on a team not stacked in his favor?
Against the Ravens, it seemed like Kessler was playing a different game than the week before. I remember he seemed more rattled and trying to force the ball to get some of the "chunk" plays instead of taking what was there like he did the previous week. But, this could be biased because I don't want to spend the first overall pick on a QB and I'm trying to justify that
Also, a whole offseason working with the receivers should help out with that.The fact that Trubisky couldn't win the starting job until his senior year in a non-football powerhouse is worrisome, what makes you think he can be an NFL starter on a team not stacked in his favor?
... and the week before Kess led us to 10 whole points vs. the 'Boys with a YPA right at 8. I guarantee you shots were missed in that game as well. The emphasis on chunks did not start during the first half of the Ravens game.
Not sure if your closing question was aimed at me as I have been more than a little skeptical of Mitch's pro-potential. I have yet to put in a lot of work on him (or most 2017 prospects for that matter), so there's still a chance that I might end up being an advocate for him, but it'll be a long, steep climb to #1...
We're due to get lucky.Oh... my... Lord...
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You STILL didn't answer my question so I'll ask you a 3rd time. How many QBs that could only start 1 year in the ACC went on to become NFL franchise saviors?
Maybe the answer is simply: We don't know. I don't know the college careers of every QB. But maybe this: Russell Wilson, played at NC St. and Wisc. How about Phillip Rivers, also NC St. Or, how about Teddy Twatwater...he played in the ACC. Or how about Matt Ryan. Jameis Winston. all ACC guys. You want to go back in history? Sonny Jurgenson, Duke guy. Marino played at Pitt...currently ACC, but not then, Boomer Esiason...ACC then....but not now. Michael Vick....Va. Tech is ACC.
Pick who you like.
I don't want a QB at #1 overall. You do. I've been looking for alternatives to that.
While I agree we need a franchise QB - I don't have enough evidence this draft has one at #1 overall. Therefore, I think we should take advantage of our ideal chance(s) to address our 31st ranked defense (which included us ranking last at sacking the QB). We cannot afford to flush the 1st overall pick down the toilet.
If you want to take that tact Tom,...then I think that you need to advocate that the Browns use all four of their picks in rounds 1 and 2 on defense. It WILL take that many to give this defense the talent and improvement that you want to see it given.
You will have to eschew any interest in improving the offense...unless we get lucky in the lower rounds. You will have to settle on another year of RG and Kessler.
Is that what you want? If so, say so.
You STILL didn't answer my question so I'll ask you a 3rd time. How many QBs that could only start 1 year in the ACC went on to become NFL franchise saviors?
Maybe the answer is simply: We don't know. I don't know the college careers of every QB. But maybe this: Russell Wilson, played at NC St. and Wisc. How about Phillip Rivers, also NC St. Or, how about Teddy Twatwater...he played in the ACC. Or how about Matt Ryan. Jameis Winston. all ACC guys. You want to go back in history? Sonny Jurgenson, Duke guy. Marino played at Pitt...currently ACC, but not then, Boomer Esiason...ACC then....but not now. Michael Vick....Va. Tech is ACC.
Pick who you like.
I don't want a QB at #1 overall. You do. I've been looking for alternatives to that.
While I agree we need a franchise QB - I don't have enough evidence this draft has one at #1 overall. Therefore, I think we should take advantage of our ideal chance(s) to address our 31st ranked defense (which included us ranking last at sacking the QB). We cannot afford to flush the 1st overall pick down the toilet.
If you want to take that tact Tom,...then I think that you need to advocate that the Browns use all four of their picks in rounds 1 and 2 on defense. It WILL take that many to give this defense the talent and improvement that you want to see it given.
You will have to eschew any interest in improving the offense...unless we get lucky in the lower rounds. You will have to settle on another year of RG and Kessler.
Is that what you want? If so, say so.
Tom is getting nit-picky Gip. And being a smartass about it. The correct answer to an ACC !!! Quarterback starting ONE year AND making it big in the NFL is zero.
We can refresh his memory about defensive players drafted #1 overall who have busted (as you mentioned starting with Courtney Brown) there are others. Or a guy like Dan Wilkinson who was as highly touted a "can't miss" prospect as Garrett, and never lived up to his #1 draft status. Houston went Clowney first, and reached like crazy for Osweiler. Probably need to go bargain shopping in this draft for a qb again. Do we want to be in their situation? I think not. We see it exactly the same way. If we draft a QB @ #1, we still have three top picks to improve the defense. Let's not forget the Raiders busted big time on Jamarcus Russell and got to Scotland (the playoffs) before ye.
I'll take Mitch, Solomon Thomas or Hooker + two other defensive players over Garrett and any other option.
So Flugs is scared if we pass on Garrett, we're passing on the next Von Miller, and Trubisky is going to be a bust, or at best another Blake Bortles. This is our one unimpeded shot at the pick of the litter franchise qb, Now some guys want to convince themselves they're all mongrels.
PS Flugs- I started the Trubisky Train, Ghoolie jumped on board later.
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You STILL didn't answer my question so I'll ask you a 3rd time. How many QBs that could only start 1 year in the ACC went on to become NFL franchise saviors?
Maybe the answer is simply: We don't know. I don't know the college careers of every QB. But maybe this: Russell Wilson, played at NC St. and Wisc. How about Phillip Rivers, also NC St. Or, how about Teddy Twatwater...he played in the ACC. Or how about Matt Ryan. Jameis Winston. all ACC guys. You want to go back in history? Sonny Jurgenson, Duke guy. Marino played at Pitt...currently ACC, but not then, Boomer Esiason...ACC then....but not now. Michael Vick....Va. Tech is ACC.
Pick who you like.
I don't want a QB at #1 overall. You do. I've been looking for alternatives to that.
While I agree we need a franchise QB - I don't have enough evidence this draft has one at #1 overall. Therefore, I think we should take advantage of our ideal chance(s) to address our 31st ranked defense (which included us ranking last at sacking the QB). We cannot afford to flush the 1st overall pick down the toilet.
If you want to take that tact Tom,...then I think that you need to advocate that the Browns use all four of their picks in rounds 1 and 2 on defense. It WILL take that many to give this defense the talent and improvement that you want to see it given.
You will have to eschew any interest in improving the offense...unless we get lucky in the lower rounds. You will have to settle on another year of RG and Kessler.
Is that what you want? If so, say so.
Tom is getting nit-picky Gip. And being a smartass about it. The correct answer to an ACC !!! Quarterback starting ONE year AND making it big in the NFL is zero.
We can refresh his memory about defensive players drafted #1 overall who have busted (as you mentioned starting with Courtney Brown) there are others. Or a guy like Dan Wilkinson who was as highly touted a "can't miss" prospect as Garrett, and never lived up to his #1 draft status. Houston went Clowney first, and reached like crazy for Osweiler. Probably need to go bargain shopping in this draft for a qb again. Do we want to be in their situation? I think not. We see it exactly the same way. If we draft a QB @ #1, we still have three top picks to improve the defense. Let's not forget the Raiders busted big time on Jamarcus Russell and got to Scotland (the playoffs) before ye.
I'll take Mitch, Solomon Thomas or Hooker + two other defensive players over Garrett and any other option.
So Flugs is scared if we pass on Garrett, we're passing on the next Von Miller, and Trubisky is going to be a bust, or at best another Blake Bortles. This is our one unimpeded shot at the pick of the litter franchise qb, Now some guys want to convince themselves they're all mongrels.
PS Flugs- I started the Trubisky Train, Ghoolie jumped on board later.
Tom is getting nit-picky Gip. And being a smartass about it. The correct answer to an ACC !!! Quarterback starting ONE year AND making it big in the NFL is zero.
We can refresh his memory about defensive players drafted #1 overall who have busted (as you mentioned starting with Courtney Brown) there are others. Or a guy like Dan Wilkinson who was as highly touted as a "can't miss" prospect as Garrett, and never lived up to his #1 draft status. Houston went Clowney first, and reached like crazy for Osweiler. Probably need to go bargain shopping in this draft for a qb again. Do we want to be in their situation? I think not. We see it exactly the same way. If we draft a QB @ #1, we still have three top picks to improve the defense. Let's not forget the Raiders busted big time on Jamarcus Russell and got to Scotland (the playoffs) before ye.
I'll take Mitch, Solomon Thomas or Hooker + two other defensive players over Garrett and any other option.
So Flugs is all scared if we pass on Garrett, we're passing on the next Von Miller, and Trubisky is going to be a bust, or at best another Blake Bortles. This is our one unimpeded shot at the pick of the litter franchise qb, Now some guys want to convince themselves they're all mongrels.
PS Flugs- I started the Trubisky Train, Ghoolie jumped on board later. PPS Gip, I had some extra thoughts after you posted.
Well, as I have been saying all along.......passing up Garrett for MT still means that the Browns can get a fairly equal talent at DE if they go Barnett, Soloman Thomas, or OLBs Zach Cunningham or Takkarist McKinley or some such. In my opinion there is a far, far greater talent gap between MT and the other QBs out there including Watson/Kizer.
It would be nice if the Browns owned the top 5 picks of the draft. Then all would be happy. we could get MT, Garrett, Hooker, Adams, and Allen. But we don't. We are doing well with two of the top 12. So we have to pick and choose.
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The super bowl will be played between two 6'4" QB's that can sling it hard.
I'd like to put in an order for a tall drink of water QB that can throw it hard please.
BEING A BROWNS FAN IS A TEST TO SEE HOW MUCH YOU CAN TAKE -
The super bowl will be played between two 6'4" QB's that can sling it hard.
I'd like to put in an order for a tall drink of water QB that can throw it hard please.
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The super bowl will be played between two 6'4" QB's that can sling it hard.
I'd like to put in an order for a tall drink of water QB that can throw it hard please.
The super bowl will be played between two 6'4" QB's that can sling it hard.
I'd like to put in an order for a tall drink of water QB that can throw it hard please.
Is 6'3" OK?
Rodgers and Favre are 6'2". Ditto Joe Montana. That shrimp Drew Brees is 6'0" . General rule of thumb for good\great qbs- 6'2" or taller. Brees is the notable outlier. -
Before I address some of your points - it's important to understand if Cleveland honored your wish of Trubisky it would need to be done at #1 overall which turns down the pick of the litter at immediate defensive impact. If QB will be inevitable early somewhere, my alternative recommendation for Watson would be 1) after we drafted our defensive guy at #1 overall and 2) no queer eye for any other guy within a supply and demand that concerns me or 3) or not taking Watson in lieu of drafting more sic em, sock em and sack em.
To your points. So after Watson aced the challenges of defenses like Ohio State and Alabama with vision and poise, you've church moused him down into if he dares to show up to the combines? Just out of curiosity, what will the combines assure me? He'll have all day to throw against no pass rushes and no corners to wide open receivers running the right routes? Yeah, because that's exactly the utopian perks our QBs have been enjoying in Cleveland since 1999. I'd rather watch film that includes defenses challenging mechanics, time to throw, accuracy, poise and vision so I can see how he handles the types of situations he'll see plenty of at the next level.
Now we're back to the same arm strength issues that made Joe Montana an early round no no? A bunch of teams gift wrapped a Hall of Fame QB to SF in a mid round with some really pretty bows and ribbons.
The only MVP we've witnessed here in Cleveland over the last 50 years was supposed to have arm strength issues. Do I need to pretend Brian Sipe never existed? He threw for over 4000 yards when that was unheard of. Seems to me vision and poise has been very helpful to QBs like Sipe and Montana especially when it was time to erase a deficit late in the game. I've been hearing about bionic arms and prototypical QBs since we traded Paul Warfield to draft Mike Phipps at #3 overall. The only time we've aced the first round at QB was in the 85 and it required a supplemental draft to do so. Today, we have a t-shirt featuring a bunch of QBs that weren't keepers inclusive of some bionic arms like Weeden and Anderson.
Throughout countless Dalton rainbows before/after he improved his arm strength up to snuff, his team won the AFC North a few times because there have been very tall pot of gold targets like Eifert and Green seemingly at the end of every rainbow in the end zone.
Have you ever wondered why there's still QBs showing up to be successful every decade without bionic arms? Could it be they have the vision (beginning at pre-snap diagnosis) up until their release so that their throws are on time enough to fit the NFL's smaller windows. If you add poise to that it's easy to see why some of these guys consistently erased 4th quarter deficits when the margin of error was all the way down to 1 mistake = no dice.
Trubisky doesn't have the big body of work for me to share your comfort with. I also asked Gipper if he could give me any signature wins of him beating a more talented team like say a Rodgers over USC or Kosar over Nebraska or Montana over Texas but I never got an answer. Trubisky gave Stanford a great big almost but he threw a pick 6 locking onto his primary target - so guess who got the W? If this happens against your better opponents in college, what makes you think it gets any easier at the next level when he has to read progressions against more complex defenses on a bad team with less time to throw in a faster league vrs better closing speeds?
Now let me ask you this - how many QBs that could only start 1 year in the ACC went on to become NFL franchise saviors?
My logic here is if he was slow to catch on and emerge in college - what makes the gig in Cleveland even easier for him after the tiny body of work? You better make sure you remember this if we end up turning down immediate defensive impact at #1 overall to take Trubisky. You know as well as I do that some years the supply and demand of football messiahs at QB in round 1 became absolute stinkers and franchise sinkers. While many (including me) argue Couch wasn't a bust - McNabb was drafted #2 overall by the team coming off the worst record in football. Which guy frequented post seasons and Conference Championship Games? Our franchise had Tim Couch and Akili Smith rated ahead of McNabb while we chose Scott Milanovich over Kurt Warner in our expansion draft. Man, did that ever set the precedent ahead. I'm willing to look past unpopularity of Watson as an NFL prospect here today like we should have looked at McNabb more so than the veer option he played in. Does he see the field at the speed of the game? What college defenses have more NFL prospects than Alabama and Ohio State so you tell me... I've been wrong before though (especially with QBs)...
I'll answer you with this Tom. And you don't need to write a novel- I'm not going to change my mind. Who won the AFC- NFC Championships? It sure as hell wasn't the teams with superior defenses. That studly Texans defense is at home too. FWIW, I like Garrett- but franchise qb trumps edge rusher. If there's a qb you think can be "the guy" but gee if we wait until #12 and hope he'll still be there because we"ll miss out on Garrett or Allen is chickenshit thinking.
It starts and ends with a franchise qb. You think Watson is going to magically learn how to be accurate deep? Go watch the tape. Learn how to not throw all those interceptions? Learn how not to get killed? Deshawn is no more "NFL Ready" than any of the other prospects.
NFL Retweet@NFLRTDeshaun Watson tried to fly a helicopter for a 1st downI was talking about THROWING at the combine, doubtless he'll show up. I'm 100% with Ghoolie on this one- Watson will suck as an NFL qb, and plenty of scouts share that position. Though this has been debated in another thread, if Watson REALLY wanted the Browns to draft hm- MHO is he wouldn't have skipped the Senior Bowl. If you don't realize, (and I've said elsewhere) we already have his bum clone on the roster by the name of RG III, and Griffin even has a better (though not more accurate) arm than Watson. Don't see the similarities? Can't help you.
Yada, yada, so he won a lot of games in college- so did Vince Young.
My qb pecking order as of today-
Mitch
Kizer
Mahomes
Watson
Kelly
I'll answer you with this Tom. And you don't need to write a novel- I'm not going to change my mind. Who won the AFC- NFC Championships? It sure as hell wasn't the teams with superior defenses. That studly Texans defense is at home too. FWIW, I like Garrett- but franchise qb trumps edge rusher. If there's a qb you think can be "the guy" but gee if we wait until #12 and hope he'll still be there because we"ll miss out on Garrett or Allen is chickenshit thinking.
It starts and ends with a franchise qb. You think Watson is going to magically learn how to be accurate deep? Go watch the tape. Learn how to not throw all those interceptions? Learn how not to get killed? Deshawn is no more "NFL Ready" than any of the other prospects.
https://twitter.com/NFLRT/status/818671083805175808
I was talking about THROWING at the combine, doubtless he'll show up. I'm 100% with Ghoolie on this one- Watson will suck as an NFL qb, and plenty of scouts share that position. Though this has been debated in another thread, if Watson REALLY wanted the Browns to draft hm- MHO is he wouldn't have skipped the Senior Bowl. If you don't realize, (and I've said elsewhere) we already have his bum clone on the roster by the name of RG III, and Griffin even has a better (though not more accurate) arm than Watson. Don't see the similarities? Can't help you.
Yada, yada, so he won a lot of games in college- so did Vince Young.
My qb pecking order as of today-
Mitch
Kizer
Mahomes
Watson
Kelly
The problem with this argument as I've noted before is that it really is a "no shit" argument to have. No one who watches football for more than two seconds is going to argue against the fact you need to have a top-tier QB to play for a Super Bowl.
However, 2 of the last Super Bowls have been won by the #1 defense in the NFL. If the Patriots win, they are #8 this year and were #1 in scoring defense as well. Look at Atlanta, they've had the franchise guy for YEARS, Julio Jones for YEARS and had Roddy White for YEARS. The reason they made it finally to the SB is because they brought in a defensive minded HC and drafted defensive players early and often.
The point is, they took Matt Ryan in a year where he clearly was the dude. This year, Myles Garrett is clearly the dude for the Browns at #1, and none of those QBs you've listed are. I'm tired of the Browns overthinking this crap year in and year out when this year the choice is about as obvious as it gets. There's still plenty of time to trade up to get the franchise guy if they so choose.
-
The super bowl will be played between two 6'4" QB's that can sling it hard.
I'd like to put in an order for a tall drink of water QB that can throw it hard please.
Is 6'3" OK?
Rodgers and Favre are 6'2". Ditto Joe Montana. That shrimp Drew Brees is 6'0" . General rule of thumb for good\great qbs- 6'2" or taller. Brees is the notable outlier. -
I'll answer you with this Tom. And you don't need to write a novel- I'm not going to change my mind. Who won the AFC- NFC Championships? It sure as hell wasn't the teams with superior defenses. That studly Texans defense is at home too. FWIW, I like Garrett- but franchise qb trumps edge rusher. If there's a qb you think can be "the guy" but gee if we wait until #12 and hope he'll still be there because we"ll miss out on Garrett or Allen is chickenshit thinking.
It starts and ends with a franchise qb. You think Watson is going to magically learn how to be accurate deep? Go watch the tape. Learn how to not throw all those interceptions? Learn how not to get killed? Deshawn is no more "NFL Ready" than any of the other prospects.
https://twitter.com/NFLRT/status/818671083805175808
I was talking about THROWING at the combine, doubtless he'll show up. I'm 100% with Ghoolie on this one- Watson will suck as an NFL qb, and plenty of scouts share that position. Though this has been debated in another thread, if Watson REALLY wanted the Browns to draft hm- MHO is he wouldn't have skipped the Senior Bowl. If you don't realize, (and I've said elsewhere) we already have his bum clone on the roster by the name of RG III, and Griffin even has a better (though not more accurate) arm than Watson. Don't see the similarities? Can't help you.
Yada, yada, so he won a lot of games in college- so did Vince Young.
My qb pecking order as of today-
Mitch
Kizer
Mahomes
Watson
Kelly
The problem with this argument as I've noted before is that it really is a "no shit" argument to have. No one who watches football for more than two seconds is going to argue against the fact you need to have a top-tier QB to play for a Super Bowl.
However, 2 of the last Super Bowls have been won by the #1 defense in the NFL. If the Patriots win, they are #8 this year and were #1 in scoring defense as well. Look at Atlanta, they've had the franchise guy for YEARS, Julio Jones for YEARS and had Roddy White for YEARS. The reason they made it finally to the SB is because they brought in a defensive minded HC and drafted defensive players early and often.
The point is, they took Matt Ryan in a year where he clearly was the dude. This year, Myles Garrett is clearly the dude for the Browns at #1, and none of those QBs you've listed are. I'm tired of the Browns overthinking this crap year in and year out when this year the choice is about as obvious as it gets. There's still plenty of time to trade up to get the franchise guy if they so choose.
The problem with this argument as I've noted before is that it really is a "no shit" argument to have. No one who watches football for more than two seconds is going to argue against the fact you need to have a top-tier QB to play for a Super Bowl.
However, 2 of the last Super Bowls have been won by the #1 defense in the NFL. If the Patriots win, they are #8 this year and were #1 in scoring defense as well. Look at Atlanta, they've had the franchise guy for YEARS, Julio Jones for YEARS and had Roddy White for YEARS. The reason they made it finally to the SB is because they brought in a defensive minded HC and drafted defensive players early and often.
The point is, they took Matt Ryan in a year where he clearly was the dude. This year, Myles Garrett is clearly the dude for the Browns at #1, and none of those QBs you've listed are. I'm tired of the Browns overthinking this crap year in and year out when this year the choice is about as obvious as it gets. There's still plenty of time to trade up to get the franchise guy if they so choose.
-
The super bowl will be played between two 6'4" QB's that can sling it hard.
I'd like to put in an order for a tall drink of water QB that can throw it hard please.
The super bowl will be played between two 6'4" QB's that can sling it hard.
I'd like to put in an order for a tall drink of water QB that can throw it hard please.
You rang?
"When you have a shared vision it is a lot easier to make unpopular decisions." - Paul DePodesta "When you win, say nothing. When you lose, say less." - Paul Brown Complete 2017 Browns Board Mock: http://thebrownsboard.com/forums/index.php?showtopic=46196 -
The super bowl will be played between two 6'4" QB's that can sling it hard.
I'd like to put in an order for a tall drink of water QB that can throw it hard please.
Is 6'3" OK?
Rodgers and Favre are 6'2". Ditto Joe Montana. That shrimp Drew Brees is 6'0" . General rule of thumb for good\great qbs- 6'2" or taller. Brees is the notable outlier. Rodgers and Favre are 6'2". Ditto Joe Montana. That shrimp Drew Brees is 6'0" .Sure, I'd be ok with one of those.
But if not, I'd like the big guy with a cannon please.
If he's not there in the early rounds....then look for a later round flyer....please.
(Kosar was a big guy, Sipe was a little guy. I'd take either...but I'd pick Kosar)
-
You STILL didn't answer my question so I'll ask you a 3rd time. How many QBs that could only start 1 year in the ACC went on to become NFL franchise saviors?
Maybe the answer is simply: We don't know. I don't know the college careers of every QB. But maybe this: Russell Wilson, played at NC St. and Wisc. How about Phillip Rivers, also NC St. Or, how about Teddy Twatwater...he played in the ACC. Or how about Matt Ryan. Jameis Winston. all ACC guys. You want to go back in history? Sonny Jurgenson, Duke guy. Marino played at Pitt...currently ACC, but not then, Boomer Esiason...ACC then....but not now. Michael Vick....Va. Tech is ACC.
Pick who you like.
I don't want a QB at #1 overall. You do. I've been looking for alternatives to that.
While I agree we need a franchise QB - I don't have enough evidence this draft has one at #1 overall. Therefore, I think we should take advantage of our ideal chance(s) to address our 31st ranked defense (which included us ranking last at sacking the QB). We cannot afford to flush the 1st overall pick down the toilet.
If you want to take that tact Tom,...then I think that you need to advocate that the Browns use all four of their picks in rounds 1 and 2 on defense. It WILL take that many to give this defense the talent and improvement that you want to see it given.
You will have to eschew any interest in improving the offense...unless we get lucky in the lower rounds. You will have to settle on another year of RG and Kessler.
Is that what you want? If so, say so.
You STILL didn't answer my question so I'll ask you a 3rd time. How many QBs that could only start 1 year in the ACC went on to become NFL franchise saviors?- Flugel
Maybe the answer is simply: We don't know. I don't know the college careers of every QB. But maybe this: Russell Wilson, played at NC St. and Wisc. How about Phillip Rivers, also NC St. Or, how about Teddy Twatwater...he played in the ACC. Or how about Matt Ryan. Jameis Winston. all ACC guys. You want to go back in history? Sonny Jurgenson, Duke guy. Marino played at Pitt...currently ACC, but not then, Boomer Esiason...ACC then....but not now. Michael Vick....Va. Tech is ACC. - Gips
Pick who you like.
All the QBs you named started more than 1 year as college QBs. - Flugel
I don't want a QB at #1 overall. You do. I've been looking for alternatives to that. While I agree we need a franchise QB - I don't have enough evidence this draft has one at #1 overall. Therefore, I think we should take advantage of our ideal chance(s) to address our 31st ranked defense (which included us ranking last at sacking the QB). We cannot afford to flush the 1st overall pick down the toilet. - Flugel
If you want to take that tact Tom,...then I think that you need to advocate that the Browns use all four of their picks in rounds 1 and 2 on defense. It WILL take that many to give this defense the talent and improvement that you want to see it given. - Gips
I'd feel great if we used 3 of our first 4 picks toward our 31 ranked defense so whoever does play QB isn't always down 7-0 about 3 minutes into every game. This draft can make things easier on whoever plays QB like limiting what the other team scores better than 2016. We're also getting Des Bryant back upfront with fresh legs who used to be the highest paid guy in our front 7. He can play inside or outside in a 4-3 so that should help us too. - Flugel
You will have to eschew any interest in improving the offense...unless we get lucky in the lower rounds. You will have to settle on another year of RG and Kessler. Is that what you want? If so, say so. - Gips
Who says we have to totally boycott offensive help in free agency or rounds 3-7 of the draft? For example, Tour's mock had us adding a Center like Tyler Orlosky from WVU and a TE like David Njoku from Miami in some of those rounds. Didn't he also have us taking a QB at the top of round 2? Kizer may already be gone there but since a lot of guys are climbing at the QB position - maybe we take Mahomes (that many guys like). - Flugel
I welcome the only Defensive Coordinator to earn a Superbowl Ring in New Orleans while understanding Revenge of the Nerds is a sequel. "Come get some!" -
You STILL didn't answer my question so I'll ask you a 3rd time. How many QBs that could only start 1 year in the ACC went on to become NFL franchise saviors?
Maybe the answer is simply: We don't know. I don't know the college careers of every QB. But maybe this: Russell Wilson, played at NC St. and Wisc. How about Phillip Rivers, also NC St. Or, how about Teddy Twatwater...he played in the ACC. Or how about Matt Ryan. Jameis Winston. all ACC guys. You want to go back in history? Sonny Jurgenson, Duke guy. Marino played at Pitt...currently ACC, but not then, Boomer Esiason...ACC then....but not now. Michael Vick....Va. Tech is ACC.
Pick who you like.
I don't want a QB at #1 overall. You do. I've been looking for alternatives to that.
While I agree we need a franchise QB - I don't have enough evidence this draft has one at #1 overall. Therefore, I think we should take advantage of our ideal chance(s) to address our 31st ranked defense (which included us ranking last at sacking the QB). We cannot afford to flush the 1st overall pick down the toilet.
If you want to take that tact Tom,...then I think that you need to advocate that the Browns use all four of their picks in rounds 1 and 2 on defense. It WILL take that many to give this defense the talent and improvement that you want to see it given.
You will have to eschew any interest in improving the offense...unless we get lucky in the lower rounds. You will have to settle on another year of RG and Kessler.
Is that what you want? If so, say so.
Tom is getting nit-picky Gip. And being a smartass about it. The correct answer to an ACC !!! Quarterback starting ONE year AND making it big in the NFL is zero.
We can refresh his memory about defensive players drafted #1 overall who have busted (as you mentioned starting with Courtney Brown) there are others. Or a guy like Dan Wilkinson who was as highly touted a "can't miss" prospect as Garrett, and never lived up to his #1 draft status. Houston went Clowney first, and reached like crazy for Osweiler. Probably need to go bargain shopping in this draft for a qb again. Do we want to be in their situation? I think not. We see it exactly the same way. If we draft a QB @ #1, we still have three top picks to improve the defense. Let's not forget the Raiders busted big time on Jamarcus Russell and got to Scotland (the playoffs) before ye.
I'll take Mitch, Solomon Thomas or Hooker + two other defensive players over Garrett and any other option.
So Flugs is scared if we pass on Garrett, we're passing on the next Von Miller, and Trubisky is going to be a bust, or at best another Blake Bortles. This is our one unimpeded shot at the pick of the litter franchise qb, Now some guys want to convince themselves they're all mongrels.
PS Flugs- I started the Trubisky Train, Ghoolie jumped on board later.
Tom is getting nit-picky Gip. And being a smartass about it. The correct answer to an ACC !!! Quarterback starting ONE year AND making it big in the NFL is zero.
We can refresh his memory about defensive players drafted #1 overall who have busted.
Dan Wilkinson who was as highly touted a "can't miss" prospect as Garrett, and never lived up to his #1 draft status.
Let's not forget the Raiders busted big time on Jamarcus Russell and got to Scotland (the playoffs) before ye.
So Flugs is scared if we pass on Garrett, we're passing on the next Von Miller, and Trubisky is going to be a bust, or at best another Blake Bortles. This is our one unimpeded shot at the pick of the litter franchise qb, Now some guys want to convince themselves they're all mongrels.
For a guy that doesn't like novels - you wrote a ton of them in this thread. Way to take all your comparisons way out of context. The 13 year NFL career of DT Dan Wilkinson may not have been terrific the entire time; but he was a reliable starter that was named All Pro in 2003. How is he pertinent to Myles Garrett at all? Different build, different position, different era. And your carefully selected QB comparisons are always black QBs that failed rather than Russell Wilson, Steve McNair, Donovan McNabb, Dak Prescott, Cam Newton, Warren Moon after the CFL. The guy Watson resembled the most in college was Joe Montana. Arm strength questioned, completion % was average at best, ran a lot, 6'2" tall, great vision and poise when game was on the line; and it was a no no to rank him with elite QBs pre-draft. Scouts weren't that nice to him either.
I didn't start this thread with an aim to twist your nipples. You just showed up in tantrum mode acting like you just drank a vineyard. Are you going to spend the next 3 months like a little yap dog nipping at everyone's ankles that doesn't want us to use our first overall pick on a QB that only started 1 year in the ACC? It doesn't mean I hate the kid. I just don't see a big enough body of work to trust. I've posted things I liked about him as well as concerns. Didn't I mention a month or so ago I understood why you and Gipper liked him regardless of who I want us to draft first? That said, watching only 2 of his games doesn't make me or you an expert on the kid.
I never asked/demanded you to like Watson. Do you even know what the subject heading of this thread is? You clearly didn't read the OP or you would have realized the intentions of the thread weren't to be a smart ass. You should see how you act any time someone doesn't agree with you about Trubisky.
When did I ever say Garrett is the next Von Miller? I haven't read 1 of our A&M fans that watch him every single week even say that either. All the way up until Gregg Williams got hired, my first choice has been Jonathan Allen to which I typed a bunch of times. I've kept an open mind for Garrett though. I'm actually excited about this draft and all the options we have.
I think Trubisky is a 2nd round talent like Derek Carr was; but it's such a weak QB class in a year several teams need to draft a QB that he'll be thrown all the way up to where franchise QBs are usually taken. I'm not describing a bust. I'm describing unreasonable expectations ahead for somebody that could end up in an offensive environment as bad as Cleveland or SF. None of this means I hate the kid. At least Gipper gave me a signature win he had vrs Florida State in another thread which I liked seeing. If we draft him, you know how I am to a fault. I'll root like Hell for him.
I welcome the only Defensive Coordinator to earn a Superbowl Ring in New Orleans while understanding Revenge of the Nerds is a sequel. "Come get some!" -
to whom it may concern from NC. Stanford & Virginia Tech was the best Defense Mitch has faced. In the Acc Clemson was ranked #1 in defense, which Mitch never played. In ACC total Defense which Mitch played against---FSU ranked 9th. Pitt 8th. Ga.Tech #7. Miami was #2 which Mitch threw for 2 TD's & 300yrds..Illinois ranked 12th in Big 10..Hope this helps your gametape viewing.
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