Orchard moving to DE Kirksey to OLB

Tour2ma

Cleveland Browns have Terry Talkin' (Kirksey) -- Terry Pluto (photos)

Posted on May 27, 2017 at 7:42 AM

ABOUT KIRKSEY AND CROWELL

The Browns believe these two players are ready to make a significant step forward.

Christian Kirksey became a starting linebacker in 2016 and impressed with his energy and toughness. The Browns love his attitude.

While Kirksey declined to discuss his contract situation, I hear the Browns are making progress in signing him to an extension. It's not done. But Kirksey does want to stay. He has one more year on his 2014 rookie contract.

The Browns starting linebackers in the 4-3 defense look like Jamie Collins and Kirksey at the outside linebackers, Demario Davis as the middle linebacker. At least, that's how Gregg Williams opened his defense at the OTA.

LondonBrown

An article on the struggle Orchard faces has been released today

http://nflspinzone.com/2017/05/27/cleveland-browns-nate-orchard-difficult-road/

Tour2ma

@londonbrown said:

An article on the struggle Orchard faces has been released today

http://nflspinzone.com/2017/05/27/cleveland-browns-nate-orchard-difficult-road/

I did not think Holmes was that big of a threat... We shall see.

Tour2ma

Speaking of Des Bryant... and we were somewhere here...

Also note embedded links to the same question of Greco and Orchard's position change...

Is Desmond Bryant the next veteran on the Browns endangered list?
by Thomas Moore
17 hours ago

The Cleveland Browns continue to go young in their latest rebuild. Does that put defensive lineman Desmond Bryant on the veteran endangered list?

The Cleveland Browns have spent the better part of two years now working to create a young roster that, if everything goes according to plan, will grow together into a dominant presence.

That is evident across the roster, but no more so than along the defensive line. The Browns added Danny Shelton and Xavier Cooper in 2015, Emmanuel Ogbah, Carl Nassib and Tyrone Holmes in 2016, and Myles Garrett, Larry Ogunjobi and Caleb Brantley in this year’s draft.

Along the way, the club has also purged itself of numerous veteran players — most notably those over the age of 30 – to the point where there are currently just four players on the roster who are 30 or older.

Related: Is John Greco the next veteran on the endangered list?

That quartet includes left tackle Joe Thomas and punter Britton Colquitt, who are not going anywhere, right guard John Greco, who may see his roster spot slipping away, and defensive lineman Desmond Bryant, who could be next in line to see his time in Cleveland come to an end.

Bryant has been a solid, of unspectacular player, for the Browns since joining the team as an unrestricted free agent in 2013. He has made 41 starts for the Browns and totaled 14.4 sacks, not stellar numbers, but good enough for a team that has lacked a pass rush during his time in town.

His six sacks in 2015 was good enough to lead the team, which pretty much tells you all you need to know about Cleveland’s pass rush.

The nine-year veteran missed all of last season after suffering a torn pectoral muscle, however, and will be heading into training camp looking to grab what is quickly becoming a dwindling number of roster spots.

Related: Can a position switch save Nate Orchard’s career?

The Browns only kept eight defensive lineman on the 53-man roster when they broke training camp last year, and outside of an injury Shelton, Ogbah, Nassib, Garrett, Ogunjobi and Jamie Meder have roster spots locked up. If the Browns like what they see from Brantley, who they selected in the sixth round of this year’s draft, he will likely make the final roster as well.

So that is seven players right there, meaning that Bryant will be up against Cooper, Holmes and Nate Orchard – who is moving to defensive end in a bid to save his career — for what very well could be just one roster spot.

Bryant is not a bad player by any stretch and he has been a good person to have on the roster as he brings traits to the field that coaches like.

But the landscape is clearly changing on the Browns roster and Bryant could be caught up in a numbers game that does not favor him in any way.

https://dawgpounddaily.com/2017/05/27/cleveland-browns-desmond-bryant/

tiamat63

@clevfan4life said:
Thats what i thought the over meant, one gapping the bigger DT, between guard annd center like u said. Is that wrong?

Actually an over call is where Danny would align over the center. I didn't parse up my response enough.

You asked how he'd play as a traditional nose...that's it.

Clevfan4life

@tiamat63 said:

Actually an over call is where Danny would align over the center. I didn't parse up my response enough.

You asked how he'd play as a traditional nose...that's it.

Hmm, ok...i didnt think the over or under ever put a DT directly over center.

Clevfan4life

http://dawgpounddaily.com/2017/05/21/cleveland-browns-nate-orchard/

Orchard has his work cut out for him to make the roster imo. Unless nassib literally did no work in the offseason i dont see them retaining an underschieving 3-4 holdover rven if he did play DE in college

tiamat63

@clevfan4life said:
Hmm, ok...i didnt think the over or under ever put a DT directly over center.

I fought for a while to think of a game where the call was used more... of course, just so happens to be one of my favorites.

Best example @ 3:48 Heads up on the center, strong side G and T/TE. Now the weakside end can 2 gap in some calls/schemes/ coaches. However what is more 'traditional' is a playing contain at a 7 tech with the backer walked up in the hole taking on the T.

edit: Similar to an odd front/call - your backside/weakside end is actually a plus size player and not necessarily your primary pass rusher. He's going to be a bit more stout. Think somebody that would end up as a 5tech in a base 3 man front. Leonard Williams might be the best name I can think of. He 2 gapped quite at bit at USC.

Tour2ma

I thought "over" the Center was in the name...

TopDawg31

@clevfan4life said:

http://dawgpounddaily.com/2017/05/21/cleveland-browns-nate-orchard/

Orchard has his work cut out for him to make the roster imo. Unless nassib literally did no work in the offseason i dont see them retaining an underschieving 3-4 holdover rven if he did play DE in college

18.5 sacks as a DE his senior season, way too soon to give up on him.

Clevfan4life

@topdawg31 said:
18.5 sacks as a DE his senior season, way too soon to give up on him.

He's got .5 more sacks than nassib over 2 years. Plus he's undersized in williams system imo. Look i dont mind keeping him as depth if the roster permits it. But if they dont want to carry a bunch of DE's, well....if i had to choose right now, orch would be on the block. That may change come training camp, we'll see

Mudfly

@clevfan4life said:
He's got .5 more sacks than nassib over 2 years.

Do you realize that, because he missed most of last season, he has actually played fewer snaps than Nassib??....and those snaps were at a position he was just learning?.....

So...even with fewer snaps AND having to learn a new position he has more sacks and more tackles than Nassib...?

Edit/add: and if we compare "rookie" seasons......

Orchard: 470 snaps....36 com tackles.....3.0 sacks...

Nassib : 540 snaps....20 com tackles......2.5 sacks...

and if we compare their jr/sr years of college.....at the same position....

Orchard : 133 tackles.....21,5 sacks...

Nassib : 52 tackles.....16.5 sacks....

So...based only on the numbers....everyone of them indicates a better performance from Orchard(in my world, at least)....

tiamat63

@clevfan4life said:
He's got .5 more sacks than nassib over 2 years. Plus he's undersized in williams system imo. Look i dont mind keeping him as depth if the roster permits it. But if they dont want to carry a bunch of DE's, well....if i had to choose right now, orch would be on the block. That may change come training camp, we'll see

6'4 255 isn't undersized in a 4 man front.

Clevfan4life

@tiamat63 said:
6'4 255 isn't undersized in a 4 man front.

It is in clevfans 4-3. ?

Flugel

@mudfly said:

Do you realize that, because he missed most of last season, he has actually played fewer snaps than Nassib??....and those snaps were at a position he was just learning?.....

So...even with fewer snaps AND having to learn a new position he has more sacks and more tackles than Nassib...?

All I know is when Orchard finally got the chance to play, he closed his rookie year strong.

No reason a fresh set of eyes like Gregg Williams, different scheme, plus a return to sic em on the edge (without coverage responsibility) - cannot reproduce the relentless pass rusher he was in college. Getting him back in a 3 point should remove all that paralysis from over-analysis Horton's D was slowing people up with.

This may be just a coincidence especially since Dick LeBeau was the guy who Horton got his zone blitz schemes from; but the TN Titans went from 2-14 the last time Horton was their DC to 9-7 the year he was replaced by LeBeau. Having said that, players indicated LeBeau tweaked it and made it less complicated so there was less thinking and more sic em helping them play faster. He realized this isn't the type of era where they had 1-3 years to train the Joey Porters, Jason Gildons, Chad Browns, and Greg Lloyd's watching Pro Bowl OLB/Edge rushers in front of them role modeling the position before they cracked into the starting lineup. Not only that, he realized a team that was bad enough to earn the right to draft 1st overall in 2016 (traded to LA) didn't have the same amount of defensive talent from top to bottom Pittsburgh used to have in order to pull off such a complicated set-up. Apparently Horton never figured that out so he squared pegged the round hole all the way back to Cleveland and did whatever he did with a depth deprived defense that counted on a lot of 1st and 2nd year players experience-wise to pull it off.

Clevfan4life

@mudfly said:

Do you realize that, because he missed most of last season, he has actually played fewer snaps than Nassib??....and those snaps were at a position he was just learning?.....

So...even with fewer snaps AND having to learn a new position he has more sacks and more tackles than Nassib...?

Edit/add: and if we compare "rookie" seasons......

Orchard: 470 snaps....36 com tackles.....3.0 sacks...

Nassib : 540 snaps....20 com tackles......2.5 sacks...

and if we compare their jr/sr years of college.....at the same position....

Orchard : 133 tackles.....21,5 sacks...

Nassib : 52 tackles.....16.5 sacks....

So...based only on the numbers....everyone of them indicates a better performance from Orchard(in my world, at least)....

Based on their college output ill take nassibs big 10 dpoty performance over orchards pac 12 career. Not shitting on the pac 12, but nassib got dpoty while u know who was at you know where

Mudfly

Well, no matter what.....I dont see this coming down to Nassib vs Orchard, when it comes to a roster spot....personally, I see them both well above the 53 man cutoff line....

Here's how Id like to see it go....last year we kept 15 LB's and DL's.......basically 7 LB's and 8 Dl....

Considering we are going 4-3 and will be in a nickle much of the time(2 LB), I say we flip flop our #'s and keep only 6 LB's and 9 up front.....if we do this, it should easily create a role(and space) for Orchard, who can play both sides of that equation and THAT would afford the Browns an opportunity to evaluate a second round pick who's only played a hand full of games....

Stunned that so many people feel Orchard has so little to offer and can easily let him go, w/o even giving him the opportunity to show it...

calfoxwc

@flugel said:

All I know is when Orchard finally got the chance to play, he closed his rookie year strong.

No reason a fresh set of eyes like Gregg Williams, different scheme, plus a return to sic em on the edge (without coverage responsibility) - cannot reproduce the relentless pass rusher he was in college. Getting him back in a 3 point should remove all that paralysis from over-analysis Horton's D was slowing people up with.

This may be just a coincidence especially since Dick LeBeau was the guy who Horton got his zone blitz schemes from; but the TN Titans went from 2-14 the last time Horton was their DC to 9-7 the year he was replaced by LeBeau. Having said that, players indicated LeBeau tweaked it and made it less complicated so there was less thinking and more sic em helping them play faster. He realized this isn't the type of era where they had 1-3 years to train the Joey Porters, Jason Gildons, Chad Browns, and Greg Lloyd's watching Pro Bowl OLB/Edge rushers in front of them role modeling the position before they cracked into the starting lineup. Not only that, he realized a team that was bad enough to earn the right to draft 1st overall in 2016 (traded to LA) didn't have the same amount of defensive talent from top to bottom Pittsburgh used to have in order to pull off such a complicated set-up. Apparently Horton never figured that out so he squared pegged the round hole all the way back to Cleveland and did whatever he did with a depth deprived defense that counted on a lot of 1st and 2nd year players experience-wise to pull it off.

That's excellent ! Football is like a game of chess - and horton hears a who? wasn't a smart coach at it.

Williams sees the way to play - aggressive, kick ass even in practice football. It's been missing for so long -

"read and react"... who is the (*&^)(&*_) who figured that was a safe way to play defense? How in the heck would

that cover for a lack of talent/depth/experience on the roster?

Oh, the Browns are going to be a very different team this season, and the talent across the board, the SMART

and AGGRESSIVE coaching... I can't wait for the first game.

Flugel

@mudfly said:

Well, no matter what.....I dont see this coming down to Nassib vs Orchard, when it comes to a roster spot....personally, I see them both well above the 53 man cutoff line....

Here's how Id like to see it go....last year we kept 15 LB's and DL's.......basically 7 LB's and 8 Dl....

Considering we are going 4-3 and will be in a nickle much of the time(2 LB), I say we flip flop our #'s and keep only 6 LB's and 9 up front.....if we do this, it should easily create a role(and space) for Orchard, who can play both sides of that equation and THAT would afford the Browns an opportunity to evaluate a second round pick who's only played a hand full of games....

Stunned that so many people feel Orchard has so little to offer and can easily let him go, w/o even giving him the opportunity to show it...

Good stuff. Like you, I think Orchard has a lot of exactly what we need so I'm glad Greg Williams pov will count most in this one.

TexasAg1969

I agree with all of you above. Orchard into the DE slot provides the depth we need with speed, which is what Williams wants in order to put quick pressure on QB's. It's gonna be a fun year to watch this D come together as a far better functioning unit than has been in Cleveland for many years. As ole Shaky once said, "Cry havoc and let slip the dogs of war." Woof Woof!