Is Brock a keeper?
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Good take...
Experience-wise, however, he is a "3rd-year guy". So the question is how many 3rd year guys who have only "flashed" to the point in their careers suddenly "get it"? Without checking I'm going to guess that's a pretty short list....
How many do you need?.....cause there are a lot of em.....
Romo, Young, Kreig, Montana, Fouts, Sipe, Hasselbeck, Garcia, Cousins, Stafford, Bradshaw, Gannon, Jaworski, Smith, Johnson, Thiesman, and on and on and on.....
How many do you need?.....cause there are a lot of em.....
Romo, Young, Kreig, Montana, Fouts, Sipe, Hasselbeck, Garcia, Cousins, Stafford, Bradshaw, Gannon, Jaworski, Smith, Johnson, Thiesman, and on and on and on.....
Most of those guys weren't "experience-wise" 3rd year guys when they flashed, but that is my point too. Usually when guys that have sat the bench for 2-3 years come in and they have what it takes to make it in the league they flash pretty early and often. Can't think of too many guys that sat the bench for 3 years and then spent another 2 years getting their feet wet and then flashed.
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Lots of em.....here's more....Matt Schaub found his game in year 6, Gannon found his in year 11, Jaworski = year 6, Alex Smith 8 years, Joe Thiesman 8 years, Brad Johnson 6 years, Steve Young 8 years.....plenty of examples of guys who sat...bounced around....had the 3 year experience tjingy....only did ok(or worse)....then, suddenly, became quality NFL QB's......
and, with only 2 exceptions, all these guys were on their second or third teams before the light came on....
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they'll be a QB that was picked someowhere in this year's draft that will turn out to be good freshman year in NFL and we'll all be like '##!!%##&@%"!!!!!
i'm guessing if this year's team shows no improvement ( i mean 5 win season) 2018 will be the last of the analytics in cleveland even if they pull a cou in the draft next year.
tiresome and myopic with no advancement equal no dollars in jimmah's pockets = see ya!
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Lots of em.....here's more....Matt Schaub found his game in year 6, Gannon found his in year 11, Jaworski = year 6, Alex Smith 8 years, Joe Thiesman 8 years, Brad Johnson 6 years, Steve Young 8 years.....plenty of examples of guys who sat...bounced around....had the 3 year experience tjingy....only did ok(or worse)....then, suddenly, became quality NFL QB's......
and, with only 2 exceptions, all these guys were on their second or third teams before the light came on....
Lots of em.....here's more....Matt Schaub found his game in year 6, Gannon found his in year 11, Jaworski = year 6, Alex Smith 8 years, Joe Thiesman 8 years, Brad Johnson 6 years, Steve Young 8 years.....plenty of examples of guys who sat...bounced around....had the 3 year experience tjingy....only did ok(or worse)....then, suddenly, became quality NFL QB's......
and, with only 2 exceptions, all these guys were on their second or third teams before the light came on....
Schaub was behind Vick in Atlanta and was a preseason all-star so the Texans traded for him IIRC. Smith I am not sure when he has flashed, he is decent. He has been on a slow trajectory of crap->mediocre->slightly above average but your team is still looking to replace you. Young I suppose but he was on a horrible team prior to going to the 49ers. Johnson was what I meant by guys that were one year wonders although he had a couple of good seasons.
I am not rooting against Brock (I did that last year). Hope he finds his groove and does well for you guys. I just have never seen the IT factor from him other than a couple plays here and there.
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Lots of em.....here's more....Matt Schaub found his game in year 6, Gannon found his in year 11, Jaworski = year 6, Alex Smith 8 years, Joe Thiesman 8 years, Brad Johnson 6 years, Steve Young 8 years.....plenty of examples of guys who sat...bounced around....had the 3 year experience tjingy....only did ok(or worse)....then, suddenly, became quality NFL QB's......
and, with only 2 exceptions, all these guys were on their second or third teams before the light came on....
Schaub was behind Vick in Atlanta and was a preseason all-star so the Texans traded for him IIRC. Smith I am not sure when he has flashed, he is decent. He has been on a slow trajectory of crap->mediocre->slightly above average but your team is still looking to replace you. Young I suppose but he was on a horrible team prior to going to the 49ers. Johnson was what I meant by guys that were one year wonders although he had a couple of good seasons.
I am not rooting against Brock (I did that last year). Hope he finds his groove and does well for you guys. I just have never seen the IT factor from him other than a couple plays here and there.
I am not rooting against Brock (I did that last year). Hope he finds his groove and does well for you guys. I just have never seen the IT factor from him other than a couple plays here and there.
Thats cool....I haven't seen it either.....hence, the list of successful QB's who didnt show early....the list is not a prediction, just history
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@ghoolie said:
THESE COCKSUCKERS ARE GONNA WIN THE LOMBARDI.
Who said anything about winning the Lombardi, Ghoolie? I did say he would play better, but didn't indicate how many games he would win. We need to see improvement for this team going forward.
If we don't need to draft a QB next year, then we can use the next picks on needs areas of need: WR, CB, LB, and perhaps a QB later in the draft. You can never have too many.
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Lots of em.....here's more....Matt Schaub found his game in year 6, Gannon found his in year 11, Jaworski = year 6, Alex Smith 8 years, Joe Thiesman 8 years, Brad Johnson 6 years, Steve Young 8 years.....plenty of examples of guys who sat...bounced around....had the 3 year experience tjingy....only did ok(or worse)....then, suddenly, became quality NFL QB's......
and, with only 2 exceptions, all these guys were on their second or third teams before the light came on....
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Terry Pluto has published his usual, level-headed take... the man is a breath of fresh air with his Browns coverage.
Cleveland Browns have Terry Talkin' Brock Osweiler, impressions from OTAs -- Terry Pluto (photos)
Posted on May 27, 2017 at 7:42 AM
CLEVELAND, Ohio -- Is the proof in the film?
That question lingered after Brock Osweiler gave his first press conference as a member of the Cleveland Browns.
I was there and was impressed with how the former Houston quarterback handled the questions. It's a tough spot. He is viewed as a throw-in as part of a deal that brought a 2018 second-round pick to the Browns.
Cleveland.com's Doug Lesmerises has taken some heat for pressing Osweiler about why he "absolutely" believes he can be a starting quarterback.
"I think the proof is in the film for the past two years," he said.
As Lesmerises correctly said, others doubt that. It's a fair point.
Osweiler simply replied, "It's OK."
But the big question about Osweiler being a starter and the film is this: Which film?
The film for 2016, when he led the NFL with 16 interceptions and had all kinds of problems adapting to Bill O'Brien's offense in Houston? He was a mess for much of the season. Houston fans were glad to see him go.
Or how about the film from 2015, when he played eight games for Denver? He threw 10 TD passes compared to six interceptions. He completed 62 percent of his throws. He started seven of those games and had a 5-2 record.
What film?
The film in 2016 led most of the NFL to write him off at the age of 26.
The film in 2015 not only inspired Houston to give him a four-year, $72 million deal ($36 million guaranteed), but other teams wanted him.
The film in 2015, along with having him on the team, inspired Denver general manager John Elway to offer Osweiler a three-year, $45 million contract ($20 million guaranteed) for three years.
The film and what happened on the field in 2015 tells Osweiler he can start for some teams. He surely looks at the Browns and believes he can beat out Cody Kessler and rookie DeShone Kizer.
He didn't say that exactly. He did say no one comes to training camp with the goal of being a backup.
If the only existing film on Osweiler came from 2016, I'd agree with his critics. He's probably a lost cause. But at the end of the 2015 season, Osweiler was considered a good pro prospect who'd had some success in Denver's offense.
A LITTLE HISTORY
O'Brien has been the head coach in Houston for three seasons.
He has had eight different starting quarterbacks ... that's right, eight!
Injuries dictated some of the switches. But it's also clear O'Brien can't find a quarterback. Nor has he been able to develop one.
Here's his Big Eight: Ryan Fitzpatrick, Brian Hoyer, Brandon Weeden, Case Keenum, Ryan Mallet, T.J. Yates, Tom Savage and Osweiler.
In three years, he's had three opening day starters: Fitzpatrick (2014), Hoyer (2015) and Osweiler (2016). He pulled Hoyer at the end of three quarters in the 2015 opener.
Rookie Deshaun Watson will probably be the fourth starter in four years.
Osweiler clashed with O'Brien.
While Houston has won a lot more games than the Browns in the last three years, the quarterback situation has been just as chaotic. Very few Houston quarterbacks under O'Brien produced good film.
My view is let's see what Osweiler can do.
Having Kessler open practices as a starter makes sense. He knows the system. Coach Hue Jackson said, "They have to take it from Cody."
But Osweiler deserves the chance to see if he can grab the job, or at least be a very viable backup. It was only a year ago several NFL teams (including Elway in Denver) thought he was much more than that.
http://www.cleveland.com/pluto/index.ssf/2017/05/cleveland_browns_have_terry_ta_120.html
I'm going to post other sections of the article in the appropriate threads.
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@ghoolie said:
The future's so bright I gotta wear night vision goggles.
Like in "Silence of the Lambs?"
I have my doubts about Osweiler too, but he's here so the hope is that he's able to shake off his Houston experience. IF he can do that, he should win the job. IF not, it's Kessler until Kizer gets a clue.
I'm not an expert on the Texans situation, but Osweiler reminded me of Weeden...a big arm who struggles to throw a 5 yard touch screen pass.
Just start winning, especially at home, starting September 10th. Whomever is under center will have my support.
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I tend to think if Brock was the answer Houston would have held on to him for themselves instead of parting company. I got to watch a couple of Notre Dame games this past year and I thought Kizer looked really good at times particularly when ND played Clemson and he led ND back from a 21- 3 deficit in the second half and they almost pulled it off against Clemson finally losing 24-22. Time will tell if Kizer can develop into an NFL quarterback but he has the potential for sure.
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I don't think he will be any worse than suckler or suckzer.
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I tend to think if Brock was the answer Houston would have held on to him for themselves instead of parting company. I got to watch a couple of Notre Dame games this past year and I thought Kizer looked really good at times particularly when ND played Clemson and he led ND back from a 21- 3 deficit in the second half and they almost pulled it off against Clemson finally losing 24-22. Time will tell if Kizer can develop into an NFL quarterback but he has the potential for sure.
I tend to think if Brock was the answer Houston would have held on to him for themselves instead of parting company. I got to watch a couple of Notre Dame games this past year and I thought Kizer looked really good at times particularly when ND played Clemson and he led ND back from a 21- 3 deficit in the second half and they almost pulled it off against Clemson finally losing 24-22. Time will tell if Kizer can develop into an NFL quarterback but he has the potential for sure.
Of course, someone said that Bill O'Brien has not been able to do shit with the 8 QBs he has had in his system. Is it the QBs? All those 26 names of CLE starting QBs since 1999...and not one went on to anywhere else to perform any better than they did here. So in that case it was the QBs. Or is it O'Brien's system? Or is it O'Brien himself that can't seem to do all that much at coaching QBs well enough to get anything really positive out of them.
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they'll be a QB that was picked someowhere in this year's draft that will turn out to be good freshman year in NFL and we'll all be like '##!!%##&@%"!!!!!
i'm guessing if this year's team shows no improvement ( i mean 5 win season) 2018 will be the last of the analytics in cleveland even if they pull a cou in the draft next year.
tiresome and myopic with no advancement equal no dollars in jimmah's pockets = see ya!
they'll be a QB that was picked someowhere in this year's draft that will turn out to be good freshman year in NFL and we'll all be like '##!!%##&@%"!!!!!
i'm guessing if this year's team shows no improvement ( i mean 5 win season) 2018 will be the last of the analytics in cleveland even if they pull a cou in the draft next year.
tiresome and myopic with no advancement equal no dollars in jimmah's pockets = see ya!
I certainly hope you are correct about the Analytic fuckheads being shown the door after this seasons inevitable failure.
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I only see Brock staying if he wins the #1 position....and I think Kessler will hold that.....its a simple money ball decision....
You take the equal talent who is cheaper.....the value player.....and that is Kess......
I still see us trading him and absorbing part of the contract to make him more attractive...or cutting him.....
what I dont see is a $16m back up with Depo in the house......
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I only see Brock staying if he wins the #1 position....and I think Kessler will hold that.....its a simple money ball decision....
You take the equal talent who is cheaper.....the value player.....and that is Kess......
I still see us trading him and absorbing part of the contract to make him more attractive...or cutting him.....
what I dont see is a $16m back up with Depo in the house......
I only see Brock staying if he wins the #1 position....and I think Kessler will hold that.....its a simple money ball decision....
You take the equal talent who is cheaper.....the value player.....and that is Kess......
I still see us trading him and absorbing part of the contract to make him more attractive...or cutting him.....
what I dont see is a $16m back up with Depo in the house......
The problem though is that we are on the hook for that $16 no matter what we do with the guy. The trade to another team with taking some salary could be a viable option, but cutting him still puts us $16 mil in the hole.
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I only see Brock staying if he wins the #1 position....and I think Kessler will hold that.....its a simple money ball decision....
You take the equal talent who is cheaper.....the value player.....and that is Kess......
I still see us trading him and absorbing part of the contract to make him more attractive...or cutting him.....
what I dont see is a $16m back up with Depo in the house......
I only see Brock staying if he wins the #1 position....and I think Kessler will hold that.....its a simple money ball decision....
You take the equal talent who is cheaper.....the value player.....and that is Kess......
I still see us trading him and absorbing part of the contract to make him more attractive...or cutting him.....
what I dont see is a $16m back up with Depo in the house......
This season.. Brady & Glennon both 14M. A.Dalton 15.7M. Alex Smith 16.9M...Talk about a one year prove it season for Brock..Great point Mud,Brock wins the starting job or it's ghum bye ya (No doubt the Texans don't know the true value of a OJ-less Ex-White Bronco)
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I only see Brock staying if he wins the #1 position....and I think Kessler will hold that.....its a simple money ball decision....
You take the equal talent who is cheaper.....the value player.....and that is Kess......
I still see us trading him and absorbing part of the contract to make him more attractive...or cutting him.....
what I dont see is a $16m back up with Depo in the house......
The problem though is that we are on the hook for that $16 no matter what we do with the guy. The trade to another team with taking some salary could be a viable option, but cutting him still puts us $16 mil in the hole.
Pretty much agree with Mud... only thing I'd add is that we will be building his trade value thru TC. Basically attempting a Philly-like move with Bradford.
I look forward to seeing folks here cry if we trade Brock even after he looks the part in preseason...
The problem though is that we are on the hook for that $16 no matter what we do with the guy. The trade to another team with taking some salary could be a viable option, but cutting him still puts us $16 mil in the hole.
And? It's Jimmah's money, if he's cool with it, then so am I. Either way we're still ~$50mm under the cap.
"When you have a shared vision it is a lot easier to make unpopular decisions." - Paul DePodesta "When you win, say nothing. When you lose, say less." - Paul Brown Complete 2017 Browns Board Mock: http://thebrownsboard.com/forums/index.php?showtopic=46196 -
Pretty much agree with Mud... only thing I'd add is that we will be building his trade value thru TC. Basically attempting a Philly-like move with Bradford.
I look forward to seeing folks here cry if we trade Brock even after he looks the part in preseason...
The problem though is that we are on the hook for that $16 no matter what we do with the guy. The trade to another team with taking some salary could be a viable option, but cutting him still puts us $16 mil in the hole.
And? It's Jimmah's money, if he's cool with it, then so am I. Either way we're still ~$50mm under the cap.
Pretty much agree with Mud... only thing I'd add is that we will be building his trade value thru TC. Basically attempting a Philly-like move with Bradford.
I look forward to seeing folks here cry if we trade Brock even after he looks the part in preseason...
And? It's Jimmah's money, if he's cool with it, then so am I. Either way we're still ~$50mm under the cap.
I promise I wont cry....
Agree about the money too.....dont care one iota about how much of Jimmys money we spend.....until he runs out and then we are trapped with a bunch of over paid under performers.....which is a long way off(if ever)
The problem though is that we are on the hook for that $16 no matter what we do with the guy. The trade to another team with taking some salary could be a viable option, but cutting him still puts us $16 mil in the hole.
By cutting him, we open the opportunity for another team to sign him.....and one will.....then we only pay the difference......
It will still be a lot.....but not the full tab......even a couple/few mil savings is a lot if your the one paying the tab....
I guess the best possible option is for him to light it up....but if he does, do we keep him?.....considering that monster contract is for 4 years?......doubt it.....
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Pretty much agree with Mud... only thing I'd add is that we will be building his trade value thru TC. Basically attempting a Philly-like move with Bradford.
I look forward to seeing folks here cry if we trade Brock even after he looks the part in preseason...
And? It's Jimmah's money, if he's cool with it, then so am I. Either way we're still ~$50mm under the cap.
I promise I wont cry....
Agree about the money too.....dont care one iota about how much of Jimmys money we spend.....until he runs out and then we are trapped with a bunch of over paid under performers.....which is a long way off(if ever)
The problem though is that we are on the hook for that $16 no matter what we do with the guy. The trade to another team with taking some salary could be a viable option, but cutting him still puts us $16 mil in the hole.
By cutting him, we open the opportunity for another team to sign him.....and one will.....then we only pay the difference......
It will still be a lot.....but not the full tab......even a couple/few mil savings is a lot if your the one paying the tab....
I guess the best possible option is for him to light it up....but if he does, do we keep him?.....considering that monster contract is for 4 years?......doubt it.....
I guess the best possible option is for him to light it up....but if he does, do we keep him?.....considering that monster contract is for 4 years?......doubt it.....If you mean by lights it up he proves to be a franchise QB, then why wouldn't you pay him? Why would we then get rid of the guy the Browns have wanted for decades?
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I guess the best possible option is for him to light it up....but if he does, do we keep him?.....considering that monster contract is for 4 years?......doubt it.....
If you mean by lights it up he proves to be a franchise QB, then why wouldn't you pay him? Why would we then get rid of the guy the Browns have wanted for decades?
If you mean by lights it up he proves to be a franchise QB, then why wouldn't you pay him? Why would we then get rid of the guy the Browns have wanted for decades?
I dont know if he can establish that he is a "franchise QB" in just one season.....my take is something like that would take a couple/few years, at best, and the Browns would prefer to pay their developmental guys less and let the high dollar players go elsewhere to develop......I could be wrong tho
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