It's confirmed ... Sashi Sucked
-
Fair enough. I'm going to assume that there's more weight on the parcel of picks they accumulated than the free agents they signed or players they drafted or cut because we won't know for a year. At least?
Do you think the team was meant to go 0 and 16 last season or was that just bad luck? Meaning they expected to suck maybe 2 and 14 but were caught off guard as to how bad it actually was?
WSS
You didn't ask me but I don't think anyone anticipated Kizer being as bad as he was... anyone inside the Browns' org at least. Joe T getting hurt wasn't really planned for either, since it had literally never happened before. Lots of variables, but I do think the team knew it was going to be terrible and team lockerroom leadership didn't do much to inspire the troops.
You didn't ask me but I don't think anyone anticipated Kizer being as bad as he was... anyone inside the Browns' org at least. Joe T getting hurt wasn't really planned for either, since it had literally never happened before. Lots of variables, but I do think the team knew it was going to be terrible and team lockerroom leadership didn't do much to inspire the troops.
Your take is always interesting Mike. I didn't want him in the first place but I can't imagine how any rookie would be successful thrown into the fire with the worst team in the league.
As far as the draft I'm less impressed by Myles Garrett than I think I should be. Benefit of the doubt that could change. I kind of like David Njoku who seems like a value pick and the book is still out on peppers. Kizer even though he was mishandled looks like a strike out. If the idea was to sabotage him and the team to rise in the draft order then I guess cutting Josh McCown was a good idea. Not, however, if at least be competitive last year was a goal.
WSS
-
Sashi did a lot of positive things for the Browns. The way he approached everything was all about building value and flexibility, but he isn't an evaluator and wasn't able to satisfy organizational goals of doing so while also keeping the team competitive. Haslam's idiotic involvement and empowering Jackson didn't help. There was a natural divide b/t "football minds" and more objective viewers who have to think on a macro level--Hue Jackson and most coaches are micro guys. Jackson may have undermined Sashi as well, but I can't prove that.
I wrote about the process ad nauseum here and Sashi's unique role among GMs. It was a bold experiment in developing an FO in parallel with "the team". Developing an FO that was not dependent upon any one "guy". An experiment that Jimmah simply lacked the fortitude to see thru to the end. Sashi, in the GM role, was the key. I suspect Jackson was in Jimmah's ear looking out for #1, but it was when "consultant" Dorsey got in Jimmah's other ear that Sashi's end was inevitable.
I wrote about the process ad nauseum here and Sashi's unique role among GMs. It was a bold experiment in developing an FO in parallel with "the team". Developing an FO that was not dependent upon any one "guy". An experiment that Jimmah simply lacked the fortitude to see thru to the end. Sashi, in the GM role, was the key. I suspect Jackson was in Jimmah's ear looking out for #1, but it was when "consultant" Dorsey got in Jimmah's other ear that Sashi's end was inevitable.
Never underestimate the power of the intentional/unintentional screwup of the McCarron deal. That would be a major part of Hue in one ear for sure.
-
You didn't ask me but I don't think anyone anticipated Kizer being as bad as he was... anyone inside the Browns' org at least. Joe T getting hurt wasn't really planned for either, since it had literally never happened before. Lots of variables, but I do think the team knew it was going to be terrible and team lockerroom leadership didn't do much to inspire the troops.
Your take is always interesting Mike. I didn't want him in the first place but I can't imagine how any rookie would be successful thrown into the fire with the worst team in the league.
As far as the draft I'm less impressed by Myles Garrett than I think I should be. Benefit of the doubt that could change. I kind of like David Njoku who seems like a value pick and the book is still out on peppers. Kizer even though he was mishandled looks like a strike out. If the idea was to sabotage him and the team to rise in the draft order then I guess cutting Josh McCown was a good idea. Not, however, if at least be competitive last year was a goal.
WSS
Your take is always interesting Mike. I didn't want him in the first place but I can't imagine how any rookie would be successful thrown into the fire with the worst team in the league.
As far as the draft I'm less impressed by Myles Garrett than I think I should be. Benefit of the doubt that could change. I kind of like David Njoku who seems like a value pick and the book is still out on peppers. Kizer even though he was mishandled looks like a strike out. If the idea was to sabotage him and the team to rise and the draft order then I guess cutting Josh McCown was a good idea. Not, however, if at least be competitive last year was a goal.
WSS
Steve I think all 3 will look less like rookies and more like second year players now that Garrett is 100%, hopefully Ogbah is too, Njoku has a true slot player to team up with now and Peppers switches to his real position of SS now that Randal has been added to go to his real position of FS. Add a great CB or two and we are ready to R&R.
EDIT: I am really torn between Chubb and Fitzpatrick @ #4. Either would be a great addition to this team. If Ogbah is back to form I'd go Fitzpatrick as a CB.
-
I know that passing on Carson Wentz and ending up with Corey Coleman is the gift that keeps on giving, and for that, thank you Sashi, thank you.
-
Zombo said:
He had a bold plan, a good plan ... but he didn't get the QB and that is why he is gone.
Two years of drafting high with multiple picks got him a qb room that Dorsey traded for a safety and a box of Cracker Jacks.
Meanwhile Jimmy is watching Wentz and Watson, both drafted with our picks, tearing up the league. That will get you fired everytime.
He did do a great job of setting us with picks and cap aplenty, and here's to Dorsey taking the ball and spiking it in the end zone.
Doesn't matter to me who gets the glory .. Just win.
Zombo
Actually if the number 1 and number 4 pic as well as all the others were the goal he did exactly what he should have done.
I would have kept Josh McCown and not drafted Deshawn Kizer, preferring another kid to possibly groom, but without the destruction of the team we might have one for games and probably knocked us out of the running for the Blue Chip players. Choose your poison I guess. Now the goal is to not blow the opportunity we suffered for.
PS Carson Wentz is only Carson Wentz because he was on a team good enough to win a Superbowl with a journeyman. And Watson would have been laying in a room at the University Hospital instead of SMU.
WSS
PS Carson Wentz is only Carson Wentz because he was on a team good enough to win a Superbowl with a journeyman. And Watson would have been laying in a room at the University Hospital instead of SMU.
How dare you question the God-like status of Wentz and Watson. Blasphemer!
Fair enough. I'm going to assume that there's more weight on the parcel of picks they accumulated than the free agents they signed or players they drafted or cut because we won't know for a year. At least?
No... it's what Dorsey does starting Thursday and how what he did there and in FA looks alongside Sashi & Co.'s work
Do you think the team was meant to go 0 and 16 last season or was that just bad luck? Meaning they expected to suck maybe 2 and 14 but were caught off guard as to how bad it actually was?
You didn't ask me but I don't think anyone anticipated Kizer being as bad as he was... anyone inside the Browns' org at least. Joe T getting hurt wasn't really planned for either, since it had literally never happened before. Lots of variables, but I do think the team knew it was going to be terrible and team lockerroom leadership didn't do much to inspire the troops.
I think everyone expected the team to be better in 2017. I still think the key failure, the primary reason it was not better lies with Kessler, not Kizer. Remember... Kess was handed the starting job going into Camp and lost it. We were depending on him to be good enough to keep the rookie on the sideline at least for a while. No proof, but going into FA, I suspect Hue told the FO that he could win with Kess while Kizer learned.
Of course we were also depending on Hue to develop both QBs... while acting as HC and coordinating the Offense. What could go wrong?
I know there are far smarter people here
Are you sure you are not going into politics?
-
PS Carson Wentz is only Carson Wentz because he was on a team good enough to win a Superbowl with a journeyman. And Watson would have been laying in a room at the University Hospital instead of SMU.
How dare you question the God-like status of Wentz and Watson. Blasphemer!
Fair enough. I'm going to assume that there's more weight on the parcel of picks they accumulated than the free agents they signed or players they drafted or cut because we won't know for a year. At least?
No... it's what Dorsey does starting Thursday and how what he did there and in FA looks alongside Sashi & Co.'s work
Do you think the team was meant to go 0 and 16 last season or was that just bad luck? Meaning they expected to suck maybe 2 and 14 but were caught off guard as to how bad it actually was?
You didn't ask me but I don't think anyone anticipated Kizer being as bad as he was... anyone inside the Browns' org at least. Joe T getting hurt wasn't really planned for either, since it had literally never happened before. Lots of variables, but I do think the team knew it was going to be terrible and team lockerroom leadership didn't do much to inspire the troops.
I think everyone expected the team to be better in 2017. I still think the key failure, the primary reason it was not better lies with Kessler, not Kizer. Remember... Kess was handed the starting job going into Camp and lost it. We were depending on him to be good enough to keep the rookie on the sideline at least for a while. No proof, but going into FA, I suspect Hue told the FO that he could win with Kess while Kizer learned.
Of course we were also depending on Hue to develop both QBs... while acting as HC and coordinating the Offense. What could go wrong?
I know there are far smarter people here
Are you sure you are not going into politics?
-
I find it hard to blame project QB Kessler just because somebody other than Kessler decided to can Josh McCown, a journeyman but at least someone who could have held the reins until Kizer learned to ride.
I don't blame anybody for the Coleman pic because no amount of raid will keep away the injury bug if it wants to bite.
WSS
-
I find it hard to blame project QB Kessler just because somebody other than Kessler decided to can Josh McCown, a journeyman but at least someone who could have held the reins until Kizer learned to ride.
I don't blame anybody for the Coleman pic because no amount of raid will keep away the injury bug if it wants to bite.
WSS
I find it hard to blame project QB Kessler just because somebody other than Kessler decided to can Josh McCown, a journeyman but at least someone who could have held the reins until Kizer learned to ride.
I don't blame anybody for the Coleman pic because no amount of raid will keep away the injury bug if it wants to bite.
Someone banned McCown? McC was simply told that he wasn't going to start for us in 2017. While I'm sure that was consistent with the FO's wishes, ultimately that's a coach's decision. Then came the offer to be the QB Coach, which McC declined.
I blamed Kessler? I blamed Hue for believing Kessler could be a functional QB1.
-
I find it hard to blame project QB Kessler just because somebody other than Kessler decided to can Josh McCown, a journeyman but at least someone who could have held the reins until Kizer learned to ride.
I don't blame anybody for the Coleman pic because no amount of raid will keep away the injury bug if it wants to bite.
Someone banned McCown? McC was simply told that he wasn't going to start for us in 2017. While I'm sure that was consistent with the FO's wishes, ultimately that's a coach's decision. Then came the offer to be the QB Coach, which McC declined.
I blamed Kessler? I blamed Hue for believing Kessler could be a functional QB1.
Someone banned McCown? McC was simply told that he wasn't going to start for us in 2017. While I'm sure that was consistent with the FO's wishes, ultimately that's a coach's decision. Then came the offer to be the QB Coach, which McC declined.
I blamed Kessler? I blamed Hue for believing Kessler could be a functional QB1.
You said the primary fault lies with Kesler not Kizer.
Not sure what you mean by banned.
He was cut, right?
WSS
-
Someone banned McCown? McC was simply told that he wasn't going to start for us in 2017. While I'm sure that was consistent with the FO's wishes, ultimately that's a coach's decision. Then came the offer to be the QB Coach, which McC declined.
I blamed Kessler? I blamed Hue for believing Kessler could be a functional QB1.
You said the primary fault lies with Kesler not Kizer.
Not sure what you mean by banned.
He was cut, right?
WSS
You said the primary fault lies with Kesler not Kizer.
Not sure what you mean by banned.
He was cut, right?
WSS
He was released.
Kessler was named the starter. Then he blew and Osweisler was named the starter. Then he blew and Kizer was named the starter. Then he blew and Hogan was named the starter. Then he blew and Kizer was named the starter. Then he blew some more.
Zombo
-
You said the primary fault lies with Kesler not Kizer.
Not sure what you mean by banned.
He was cut, right?
WSS
He was released.
Kessler was named the starter. Then he blew and Osweisler was named the starter. Then he blew and Kizer was named the starter. Then he blew and Hogan was named the starter. Then he blew and Kizer was named the starter. Then he blew some more.
Zombo
Zombo said:
He was released.
Kessler was named the starter. Then he blew and Osweisler was named the starter. Then he blew and Kizer was named the starter. Then he blew and Hogan was named the starter. Then he blew and Kizer was named the starter. Then he blew some more.
Zombo
And Josh McCown won more games than the rest of them combined in 2017. That's my point.
WSS
-
Zombo said:
He was released.
Kessler was named the starter. Then he blew and Osweisler was named the starter. Then he blew and Kizer was named the starter. Then he blew and Hogan was named the starter. Then he blew and Kizer was named the starter. Then he blew some more.
Zombo
And Josh McCown won more games than the rest of them combined in 2017. That's my point.
WSS
And Josh McCown won more games than the rest of them combined in 2017. That's my point.
WSS
Yes, he did.
He is better than all of them, no argument there.
He was also 1-10 in Cleveland and 38 years old, so you can't blame them for taking a shot on someone else that year. Gotta keep taking shots until you find your guy.
With Taylor and the #1 pick, we should be light years ahead of any recent QB rooms from the get go.
Zombo
-
And Josh McCown won more games than the rest of them combined in 2017. That's my point.
WSS
Yes, he did.
He is better than all of them, no argument there.
He was also 1-10 in Cleveland and 38 years old, so you can't blame them for taking a shot on someone else that year. Gotta keep taking shots until you find your guy.
With Taylor and the #1 pick, we should be light years ahead of any recent QB rooms from the get go.
Zombo
Zombo said:
Yes, he did.
He is better than all of them, no argument there.
He was also 1-10 in Cleveland and 38 years old, so you can't blame them for taking a shot on someone else that year. Gotta keep taking shots until you find your guy.
With Taylor and the #1 pick, we should be light years ahead of any recent QB rooms from the get go.
Zombo
Again we're talking about 2017. By the way in 2017 1 + 10 looks pretty good in hindsight.
5 + 11 looks even better.
Of course at 5 and 11 we wouldn't have the number one pick.
WSS
-
I don’t see the point in having kept McCown to increase wins by one or two. Failure is failure. The team was a failure from its GM to its HC to its QB, and Josh, as good as he can be, wasn’t going to win more than 1 or 2 games, either.
I don’t see the point in having kept McCown to increase wins by one or two. Failure is failure. The team was a failure from its GM to its HC to its QB, and Josh, as good as he can be, wasn’t going to win more than 1 or 2 games, either.
That's not really the point I'm trying to make. Just drawing the distinction of two plans of action for 2017. Aim for a modicum of respectability mentor Deshone Kizer or just tank the season for the number one pick.
No matter what the plan was the second scenario is what we got. Now it's time to do what we need to do going forward. That's it.
WSS
-
I don’t see the point in having kept McCown to increase wins by one or two. Failure is failure. The team was a failure from its GM to its HC to its QB, and Josh, as good as he can be, wasn’t going to win more than 1 or 2 games, either.
That's not really the point I'm trying to make. Just drawing the distinction of two plans of action for 2017. Aim for a modicum of respectability mentor Deshone Kizer or just tank the season for the number one pick.
No matter what the plan was the second scenario is what we got. Now it's time to do what we need to do going forward. That's it.
WSS
That's not really the point I'm trying to make. Just drawing the distinction of two plans of action for 2017. Aim for a modicum of respectability mentor Deshone Kizer or just tank the season for the number one pick.
No matter what the plan was the second scenario is what we got. Now it's time to do what we need to do going forward. That's it.
WSS
I think probably the idea that Hue Jackson would be all Kizer needed was relied on too heavily when weighing whether to retain McCown.
-
Zombo said:
Yes, he did.
He is better than all of them, no argument there.
He was also 1-10 in Cleveland and 38 years old, so you can't blame them for taking a shot on someone else that year. Gotta keep taking shots until you find your guy.
With Taylor and the #1 pick, we should be light years ahead of any recent QB rooms from the get go.
Zombo
Again we're talking about 2017. By the way in 2017 1 + 10 looks pretty good in hindsight.
5 + 11 looks even better.
Of course at 5 and 11 we wouldn't have the number one pick.
WSS
Again we're talking about 2017. By the way in 2017 1 + 10 looks pretty good in hindsight.
5 + 11 looks even better.
Of course at 5 and 11 we wouldn't have the number one pick.
WSS
Ya, I know we are talking about 2017, and I am a fan of McCown ... but I understand the process that led them to release him.
They figured they were going to take another shot at QB in the draft. And they had Kessler from the 3rd round the year before who had started half the season. So they let the 38 yo oft-injured McCown go and took a stab at Brock Osweiler (netting a second rounder in the meantime) to come in and be the "veteran" while the rookie got his feet wet. It didn't work out, because Oz was awful. And Kess was awful. And then the rookie turned out to be awful. Not good personnel decisions ... but they were taking a shot. I think the real criticism lies in who they drafted, and when they drafted him, and who they passed up in the draft ... not that they might have won three games with McCown and still be in the same boat this year anyway.
Zombo
-
That's not really the point I'm trying to make. Just drawing the distinction of two plans of action for 2017. Aim for a modicum of respectability mentor Deshone Kizer or just tank the season for the number one pick.
No matter what the plan was the second scenario is what we got. Now it's time to do what we need to do going forward. That's it.
WSS
I think probably the idea that Hue Jackson would be all Kizer needed was relied on too heavily when weighing whether to retain McCown.
-
McCarron always did suck - and always will. Sashi was correct to find anything, everything to deep-six that trade.
I don't want my job performance review based on opinions of people I have to fight -- because of course those people "Don't Like" someone who holds the line against them. Sashi was absolutely not working with these people... Sashi was entirely against them, as he should have been. Agents see Browns purely as leverage against other teams and as money trains for their clients who don't get offers from "The Good" teams.... period. Betcha if I ask 20 GM's regarding their opinion of Drew Rosenhaus that they'll unanimously hate Drew. So that means Drew sucks?
The "revelation" that Sashi was unanimously disliked by agents suggests to me that Sashi was in reality GOOD at his job.
-
They are also NOT real fans. REAL Fans would not embarass, belittle, & make fun of their "alleged" team. That isn't support.
Just one old guy's opinion.
Mike
Those "fans" are cork soakers.
WSS
Either of you boys season ticket holders? Seeing as how it appears a good lot of the parade go-ers were - not sure it's entirely right to question "fanhood" here.
Either of you boys season ticket holders? Seeing as how it appears a good lot of the parade go-ers were - not sure it's entirely right to question "fanhood" here.
Season ticket holders aren't the only ones that pay money to watch the Browns T. Those of us that don't live in Ohio pay DirecTV to sustain their NFL Monopoly in order to watch Cleveland play all 16 weeks. And if people congregate at Browns Backers bars to watch - they usually pay for the meals and the beverages and tip the hotties waiting on them every Sunday. It all adds up. I read where NFL owners are actually getting significantly more revenue via the profit sharing from the television contract than they are bringing in from home attendance for whatever that's worth.
All that being the case, there's a difference between being frustrated with losing and shitting on this franchise because it's happening. Players, coaches and FO staff put so much time into their football careers that I can't imagine any of them being happy they went the 0-16 they will have to wear like a scarlet letter for the rest of their careers. I don't see as much wrong with fans sharing their frustration with the Browns as I do with them taking frustration out on the Browns. I think that parade was a very bad reflection of a VERY loyal, devoted and passionate fan base that has been here through thick and thin for whatever my 2 cents means.
Hello! It looks like you're interested in this conversation, but you don't have an account yet.
Getting fed up of having to scroll through the same posts each visit? When you register for an account, you'll always come back to exactly where you were before, and choose to be notified of new replies (either via email, or push notification). You'll also be able to save bookmarks and upvote posts to show your appreciation to other community members.
With your input, this post could be even better 💗
Register Login