Jonathan Paul Manziel
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@everlastingxxx said:
I didnt read the article, i think Ulrich is a Manziel hater.
lol... and the above is all I read of your post...
Good, level-headed article, but nothing really original or earth shattering.
The one point I think it missed is that Defensive-minded HCs like QBs that are game managers, i.e., QBs that avoid unforced errors. At this point I think BH is that QB.
One JM comment in the article was about his "inconsistency" throwing the ball. One comment made about his work with Whitfield in prep for his pro day was about how he was now getting his pinky on the laces and how much it tightened his spiral and improved his control.
Yet in about half of what is now "stock footage" of JM throwing the pinky is not on the laces. Still a work in progress apparently, but it raises questions about JM's focus when he displays a lack of attention to this fundamental detail... one that's impact JM himself called amazing.
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So I'm wondering when we see JFF in a commercial. Subway? McD's? Who knows. It should happen real soon.
He was in a McD's commercial with Lebron.
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Bottom line is the best Quarterback in the view of the coaching staff will start. Don't matter what we or the writers think.
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@everlastingxxx said:
It wasnt a knock on Joe Thomas. BTW, you dont have to read and respond to everything i post.
I only respond to really interesting stuff and really, really stupid stuff. Guess which category you fit in?
Saying the 22nd pick in the draft is the best player on our offense is beyond comprehension, considering four guys in this offense were Pro Bowlers last year and Manziel hasn't even had a training camp.
I don't even remember a QB being the best player on his offense before he even played with any of them, let alone won his position battle.
John Elway, Peyton Manning, Andrew Luck ... no-brainer first overall picks ... were not the best players on their offenses to begin their career.
Just a dumb statement.
The guy gets passed over 21 times by NFL execs, but he can walk on to the field and be better than a 29 year old 7 time Pro Bowler?
Zombo
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you mean sniggers.
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A 1st round QB "should" be able to beat out a career backup... if not, that either says Hoyer is better than a career backup or Manziel is not as good as we hoped,he would be.
I think it would be hard to have a competition between these two in camp because you may never see what Manziel can do until you see him in a game situation. In a structured/simulated practice setting, if Manziel is even close to Hoyer I would give him the nod because of what he is capable of in real situations
So Weeden and Quinn should still be on the team then?
As for the thread, I think it will be a heated compitition. Those who go to training camp will get to see first hand if it is going to be a fair one.
Is that what I said? Wow, could've fooled me. Did they beat out the career backups in camp to start? Just because they were the best we had doesn't mean success. Same goes for the two we have right now...So Weeden and Quinn should still be on the team then?
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@everlastingxxx said:
I didnt read the article, i think Ulrich is a Manziel hater.
That said, i think Manziel starts on opening day because:
1. Offense is tailor made for a double threat QB.
2. Lack of WR talent will need more time to get open and a mobile QB can do that.
3. Hoyer is over rated and coming off a serious knee injury. Takes 2 years to fully recover.
4. Manziel is the best player on the offense
I do think the competition will drag on till the end because i think the evaluation is tricky and they want to keep the Steelers guessing. Manziel will throw more INTs but also make more big plays. Hoyer is safer and more of a game manager. I also think Shanny wont show the real offense during the preseason, much like he did with Washington. On opening day he caught the Saints off guard with an offensive system the NFL hadnt seen before.
To your points 1.) The offense will be tailored to whomever they feel should start. 2) I think Hoyer is adequately mobile to extend plays 3) part one is purely opinion based, recovery times are getting shorter and shorter with better medical technology and athletes dedicated to rehab. 4) Absolute pure speculation. Neither you or anyone else has a clue how well or poorly Manziel will play in this offense and in the NFL.
I am no Manziel hater and hope it was a good draft pick. Having said that at this point Hoyer is far more of a professional athlete than JFF>
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@everlastingxxx said:
My comment is predicated on the future and what he will be this season. Besides, i thought Manziel was the best player on the Texas A&M offense and two other players were picked before him! I think he makes everyone better and is the fuel that keeps the offense running. Its an opinion obviously. Thomas, Cameron and Mack are great. Had i said Manziel was the 4th best player on the offense would that have made you feel better?
I don't know, I haven't seen him play against an NFL defense yet. No one has.
Let's see him be the best best QB on the roster first.
Baby steps.
Zombo
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at this point i wished we had drafted WR @22 a waited another year for a QB.
what a bunch of bullshit.
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nissan of middletown heights.
how much you think he got for that $250k if?
well, i guess that's one good weekend in vegas.
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nissan of middletown heights.
how much you think he got for that $250k if?
well, i guess that's one good weekend in vegas.
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A 1st round QB "should" be able to beat out a career backup... if not, that either says Hoyer is better than a career backup or Manziel is not as good as we hoped,he would be.
I think it would be hard to have a competition between these two in camp because you may never see what Manziel can do until you see him in a game situation. In a structured/simulated practice setting, if Manziel is even close to Hoyer I would give him the nod because of what he is capable of in real situations
A 1st round QB "should" be able to beat out a career backup... if not, that either says Hoyer is better than a career backup or Manziel is not as good as we hoped,he would be.
I think it would be hard to have a competition between these two in camp because you may never see what Manziel can do until you see him in a game situation. In a structured/simulated practice setting, if Manziel is even close to Hoyer I would give him the nod because of what he is capable of in real situations
For the majority of his career- Hoyer was backing up a certain first ballot HOFer in Brady. He learned from one of the best. There's more than one great qb that got cut by multiple teams, just sayin'. BUT- if the Browns thought Hoyer was the long term answer, they certainly wouldn't have drafted Manziel either.
@everlastingxxx said:
I didnt read the article, i think Ulrich is a Manziel hater.
I do think the competition will drag on till the end because i think the evaluation is tricky and they want to keep the Steelers guessing. Manziel will throw more INTs but also make more big plays. Hoyer is safer and more of a game manager. I also think Shanny wont show the real offense during the preseason, much like he did with Washington. On opening day he caught the Saints off guard with an offensive system the NFL hadnt seen before.
Say what? Anyone who doesn't walk up and kiss JFF's ass is a hatah?
@everlastingxxx said:
2. & 3. RG3 was not the same player last season after this knee injury. Yes the treatment allows players to get back onto the field, but can they play at that same level?
Manziel obviously has some growing up to do but you cant deny what he can do on the field. I think this QB battle is going to be very interesting and exciting to watch.
Re #2. Hoyer has had months (three if you want to count) longer than RG III to rehab. Everyone and their grandmother thought Griffin was trying to push it way too fast coming back.
Yes the battle will be interesting. I've seriously mellowed of late in my stance on Manziel- but I think Ullrich is dead on. No reason to not let Hoyer start- at least until the bye- he's earned it, IMO. I don't care how confident JF is- he's not seen any college defense even close to the sophistication and speed of the Steelers D. (Brandon Wee-done found that out in a hurry in his first start against the Eagles). And don't give me any crap about Alabama. The Tide has a few guys from that D he faced in the pros- and they're now rookies just like Johnny. We're talking a bunch of seasoned veterans. If someone's going to toss 3 picks and lose in the opener- let it be Hoyer- (we're sort of used to getting beat by them). Then you can have Manziel ride in the new White Nissan in October to save the season.
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NEWS
With Brian Hoyer healthy, QB competition on level playing field; London looms for NFLPosted Jul 18, 2014
Vic CarucciSenior Editor@viccarucci Facebook
ClevelandBrowns.com takes you around the NFL with the Daily Kickoff.
Brian Hoyer
, Big Ben, Ryan Mathews
It wasn’t exactly a big revelation, but by confirming to reporters covering Joe Haden
’s celebrity softball game Thursday that he is fully healthy to participate in training camp, Brian Hoyer removed a question that had lingered during the offseason.Would the Cleveland Browns’ quarterback competition truly be on a level playing field?
As he continued to recover from the season-ending knee injury he suffered last year, Hoyer had some limitations during offseason workouts. He didn’t participate fully in team drills, and when he did drop back to throw, he didn’t face the same pass rush that Johnny Manziel
and the Browns’ other quarterbacks faced (although no quarterback was subjected to contact, and that will also be true in training camp).The biggest differences for Hoyer were that he didn’t have to throw against as close a well of front-seven defenders nor was faced with having to run full throttle to escape pressure, as Manziel, Tyler Thigpen
, andConnor Shaw did.When Hoyer said “it’s exciting for me” to be able to practice “full go,” he isn’t only referring to the fact that all of his hard work in rehabilitation has paid off.
It also means that he will be able to display the full extent of his physical skills and give the coaches a complete picture in their evaluation of who should be the Browns’ starter on Sept. 7.
ROGER GOODELL CAN SEE NFL TEAM IN LONDON WITHIN FIVE OR 10 YEARS
The NFL’s increasing success with regular-season games played in London has convinced the league that a franchise based there could become a reality soon.
And during an interview with NFL Network, NFL Commissioner Roger Goodell defined soon as within five or 10 years.
“We couldn’t be happier with what we’re seeing,” Goodell said. “We actually couldn’t be more surprised by the tremendous demand for NFL football in London, in the UK in general, and frankly in Europe. So it’s not something that I think is 15 or 20 years away. It could be five or 10 years away.”
Since 1986, when the NFL began staging preseason games overseas, the league has become more aggressive with promoting its brand globally. And since it began playing regular-season games in London in 2007, the league has gone from playing one, to two, to now, this year, three regular-season contests there.
“The fans want to see more NFL football, and they want to see the real thing,” Goodell said. “They don’t want to see the ‘friendlies’ as they call them over there, which is preseason games. So we changed our strategy eight years ago and said, ‘Let’s play regular season games.’ And our clubs have responded very favorably. They’ve enjoyed the experience. So we’re anxious to do more of it. I see us continuing to play more games there, to focus on our television coverage there and expanding that, our other business efforts including licensing and sponsorship.”
Goodell did not say whether the NFL team that would be based in London would be relocated from an existing league city or an expansion club.
FEWER UNDERCLASSMEN WILL BE ENCOURAGED TO ENTER NFL DRAFT
Last May saw a record 98 underclassmen eligible for the NFL Draft.
That set off an alarm for the league, and, according to Pro Football Talk, the NFL’s College Advisory Committee has revised its policies in an effort to reduce that number.
The committee’s policy used to say that players who projected as third-round picks or later would be advised to remain in school. Now, PFT reports, that advice will be given to players who don’t project as a first- or second-round pick.
The league also plans to limit requests for evaluations of underclassmen to five per college team, but that will be done on a case-by-case basis.
RYAN MATHEWS STILL STRIVING TO FULLY COMPETE FOR THE CHARGERS
Running back Ryan Mathews took a big step last season, playing in all 16 games on the San Diego Chargers’ schedule and rushing for 1,255 yards.
But a sprained ankle limited Mathews in the Chargers’ two playoff games, giving him a new goal for this season: stay healthy until the season ends.
“I played a full season, but I didn’t really get to contribute in the games after the season – the real games when it really counts,” Mathews was quoted as saying on ESPN.com. “That’s my expectation this season. I’ve got to do more and do better, so I can be there with my guys to be able to help them out as much as I can when we get there again.”
>>Be sure to tune in Monday through Friday, 1 p.m. to 3 p.m. ET, for “Cleveland Browns Daily, Driven by Liberty Ford” on ESPN 850 WKNR or catch the live stream right here on ClevelandBrowns.com. We take your questions at 216-578-0850 and via Twitter @Browns_Daily. -
@everlastingxxx said:
You stopped at my first sentence but then you referenced Hoyer being a game manager, something i mentioned later in my post?
I think moble QBs give defensive coordinators nightmares vs guys who check the ball down endlessly. Although i do think Hoyer isnt afraid to sling it and throw a few picks (see Minni game last year). I also think you can reduce the risk by using high percentage throws. Example: the quick WR screens, something Manziel is excellent at.
Yes, I stopped. I wrote about BH being a game manager long before the Browns picked JM and you in the 2014 draft.
Any HC would prefer a QB that goes thru his read progressions (because he can) to a QB pulls the ball down when his primary is not there and goes "mobile". If the QB of choice ends up swinging the ball to a RB... then fine. Better a RB carrying the rock than a QB.
Yes, in his first start BH failed to account for underneath coverage and suffered 2 INTs by LBs early. He was not taking chances with those throws.
You can't hide a QB's inexperience using "high percentage" throws. If we wanted a WR screen QB, then we'd have taken Carr.
@everlastingxxx said:
1. Maybe, but i think with a Shanahan system, its better to find players that have strengths for that style. Example getting Tate a one cut zone running back. I think when you look at what Kyle did in Washington you see a system that would be perfect for a guy like Johnny Manziel.
2. & 3. RG3 was not the same player last season after this knee injury. Yes the treatment allows players to get back onto the field, but can they play at that same level?
Manziel obviously has some growing up to do but you cant deny what he can might do on the field. I think this QB battle is going to be very interesting and exciting to watch.
Perfect? Just like it was perfect for RG3? I simply cannot comprehend the eagerness with which JM fans await his running in the NFL. Besides... Pettine has stated time and time again that his core philosophy is adapting systems to the strengths of his players, not the other way around.
On knee recovery... The more a QB relies upon speed and elusiveness to be effective, the more likely it is that a knee injury will drop the level of his play. RG3 dropped. Tom Brady not so much.
Fixed your next to last point. And QB "battles" to often become QB controversies... and those are neither fun nor interesting.
"When you have a shared vision it is a lot easier to make unpopular decisions." - Paul DePodesta "When you win, say nothing. When you lose, say less." - Paul Brown Complete 2017 Browns Board Mock: http://thebrownsboard.com/forums/index.php?showtopic=46196 -
@everlastingxxx said:
You stopped at my first sentence but then you referenced Hoyer being a game manager, something i mentioned later in my post?
I think moble QBs give defensive coordinators nightmares vs guys who check the ball down endlessly. Although i do think Hoyer isnt afraid to sling it and throw a few picks (see Minni game last year). I also think you can reduce the risk by using high percentage throws. Example: the quick WR screens, something Manziel is excellent at.
Yes, I stopped. I wrote about BH being a game manager long before the Browns picked JM and you in the 2014 draft.
Any HC would prefer a QB that goes thru his read progressions (because he can) to a QB pulls the ball down when his primary is not there and goes "mobile". If the QB of choice ends up swinging the ball to a RB... then fine. Better a RB carrying the rock than a QB.
Yes, in his first start BH failed to account for underneath coverage and suffered 2 INTs by LBs early. He was not taking chances with those throws.
You can't hide a QB's inexperience using "high percentage" throws. If we wanted a WR screen QB, then we'd have taken Carr.
@everlastingxxx said:
1. Maybe, but i think with a Shanahan system, its better to find players that have strengths for that style. Example getting Tate a one cut zone running back. I think when you look at what Kyle did in Washington you see a system that would be perfect for a guy like Johnny Manziel.
2. & 3. RG3 was not the same player last season after this knee injury. Yes the treatment allows players to get back onto the field, but can they play at that same level?
Manziel obviously has some growing up to do but you cant deny what he can might do on the field. I think this QB battle is going to be very interesting and exciting to watch.
Perfect? Just like it was perfect for RG3? I simply cannot comprehend the eagerness with which JM fans await his running in the NFL. Besides... Pettine has stated time and time again that his core philosophy is adapting systems to the strengths of his players, not the other way around.
On knee recovery... The more a QB relies upon speed and elusiveness to be effective, the more likely it is that a knee injury will drop the level of his play. RG3 dropped. Tom Brady not so much.
Fixed your next to last point. And QB "battles" to often become QB controversies... and those are neither fun nor interesting.
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I've said it 100 times to friends, but I've thought for a good while that Hoyer has a three game opportunity to be the starter in Cleveland. The early bye affords the chance for Hoyer to either go 3-0, 2-1 and keep playing or struggle and the reigns be handed to Manziel. Frankly, I think that's a great way to go about the whole thing too. At that point Hoyer will have a decent body of work. If the guy goes 3-0 as much as I like Manziel he can be the flashiest backup in the NFL for all I care.
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@everlastingxxx said:
I didnt read the article, i think Ulrich is a Manziel hater.
That said, i think Manziel starts on opening day because:
1. Offense is tailor made for a double threat QB.
What makes you think you know what kind of an offense this team is going to run. You think just because they had RGIII in Wash that Shanahan is going to run that zone read thing...whatever it is called? I think he will tailor his offense to the guy running it....the guy he and Pettine choose to start.
2. Lack of WR talent will need more time to get open and a mobile QB can do that.
Better yet: play a QB that can throw to a less than absolutely wide open receiver. Hoyer seemed to have that knack last year.
3. Hoyer is over rated and coming off a serious knee injury. Takes 2 years to fully recover.
Over rated by who? No one has Hoyer rated very high at all, because he has just never been a full time starter in this league. I don't know, but I suspect that any one who does "rate" QBs probably does not have him rated anywhere higher than 25th at best in this league. He very may end up to be proven underrated.
4. Manziel is the best player on the offense
The Texas A&M offense?....and even that was a maybe give that both Evans and Matthews.....guys drafted above him, we his teammates.
Now he is in the NFL....and NO ONE knows if this guy is any good at all really. That includes you.
I do think the competition will drag on till the end because i think the evaluation is tricky and they want to keep the Steelers guessing. Manziel will throw more INTs but also make more big plays. Hoyer is safer and more of a game manager. I also think Shanny wont show the real offense during the preseason, much like he did with Washington. On opening day he caught the Saints off guard with an offensive system the NFL hadnt seen before.
We shall see.
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@everlastingxxx said:
My comment is predicated on the future and what he will be this season. Besides, i thought Manziel was the best player on the Texas A&M offense and two other players were picked before him! I think he makes everyone better and is the fuel that keeps the offense running. Its an opinion obviously. Thomas, Cameron and Mack are great. Had i said Manziel was the 4th best player on the offense would that have made you feel better?
OK, what you should have said is "I hope he proves to be the best player on the offense". Sure, we hope so too.
But, a hope and a wish is not a fact.....evidenced by the fact that I have not won the lottery yet, nor had the opportunity to bed Kaley Cuocco.
Your statement is tantamount to me saying "I have bedded Kaley Cuocco".
(The only good thing: your wish has slightly more chance of becoming fact than mine).
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