Jonathan Paul Manziel
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It does nothing to the value of the top 3. They're the top 3 for a reason.
A strong Combine performance will certainly boost the stock of the "undesirables", as I like to call them, but it won't do anything to affect Bridgewater, Bortles or Manziel.
Fales, Garopollo and Carr could be perfect in the Combine, but it doesn't change the fact that they played against bottom barrel talent for the entirety of their careers. It also won't change the fact that Carr's numbers were the product of a system offense that has never had any sort of success in the NFL, or that Fales and Garopollo lack elite arm strength.
Each has their own advantages. For Carr, it's his physical attributes. For Garopollo, it's his quick release. For Fales, it's his ball placement and anticipation throws. But they've yet to do anything on a big stage, and the NFL Draft history books are full of smaller name quarterbacks with a few great qualities that did nothing with their careers.
A good Combine performance will certainly improve their stock. We might even see Garopollo pull a Ponder and crack the first round. But to think that it will, in any way, ruin the stock of the Big 3 is just absurd.
All fair points TCPO. The only thing I would say as a counter however is that the NFL history books are also pretty full of big name high draft guys that were also busts. At the end of the day its part science and part luck I think. From 1990 forward major first round (mostly high first round) disappointments include:
Mark Sanchez, Jamarcus Russel, Vince Young , Matt Leinart, Byron Leftwich, David Carr, Joey Harrington, Tim Couch, Akili Smith, Cade McNown, Ryan Leaf, Heath Shuler, Rick Mirer, David Klingler, Andre Ware.
I know that's not a huge list spanning 24 years but it does indicate that things aren't always as good as they look,Lets hope this year we get it right wherever we decide to take one.
All fair points TCPO. The only thing I would say as a counter however is that the NFL history books are also pretty full of big name high draft guys that were also busts. At the end of the day its part science and part luck I think. From 1990 forward major first round (mostly high first round) disappointments include:
Mark Sanchez, Jamarcus Russel, Vince Young , Matt Leinart, Byron Leftwich, David Carr, Joey Harrington, Tim Couch, Akili Smith, Cade McNown, Ryan Leaf, Heath Shuler, Rick Mirer, David Klingler, Andre Ware.
I know that's not a huge list spanning 24 years but it does indicate that things aren't always as good as they look,Lets hope this year we get it right wherever we decide to take one.
That's a fair point, but I'd make the claim that the big name bust list is nowhere near the list of mid round small school prospect bust list.
Big name prospects from big name programs can be just as bad as someone from anywhere else, I agree. But in a game of odds such as drafting, taking a guy who's routinely made plays against better competition is just a higher percentage play.
In the end, however, it comes down to scheme fit.
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All fair points TCPO. The only thing I would say as a counter however is that the NFL history books are also pretty full of big name high draft guys that were also busts. At the end of the day its part science and part luck I think. From 1990 forward major first round (mostly high first round) disappointments include:
Mark Sanchez, Jamarcus Russel, Vince Young , Matt Leinart, Byron Leftwich, David Carr, Joey Harrington, Tim Couch, Akili Smith, Cade McNown, Ryan Leaf, Heath Shuler, Rick Mirer, David Klingler, Andre Ware.
I know that's not a huge list spanning 24 years but it does indicate that things aren't always as good as they look,Lets hope this year we get it right wherever we decide to take one.
That's a fair point, but I'd make the claim that the big name bust list is nowhere near the list of mid round small school prospect bust list.
Big name prospects from big name programs can be just as bad as someone from anywhere else, I agree. But in a game of odds such as drafting, taking a guy who's routinely made plays against better competition is just a higher percentage play.
In the end, however, it comes down to scheme fit.
And in Manziels case, its gonna take a coach almost inventing a new scheme just for him.That's a fair point, but I'd make the claim that the big name bust list is nowhere near the list of mid round small school prospect bust list.
Big name prospects from big name programs can be just as bad as someone from anywhere else, I agree. But in a game of odds such as drafting, taking a guy who's routinely made plays against better competition is just a higher percentage play.
In the end, however, it comes down to scheme fit.
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And in Manziels case, its gonna take a coach almost inventing a new scheme just for him.That's a fair point, but I'd make the claim that the big name bust list is nowhere near the list of mid round small school prospect bust list.
Big name prospects from big name programs can be just as bad as someone from anywhere else, I agree. But in a game of odds such as drafting, taking a guy who's routinely made plays against better competition is just a higher percentage play.
In the end, however, it comes down to scheme fit.
XxDaBuckeyexX said:
And in Manziels case, its gonna take a coach almost inventing a new scheme just for him.
I think that can be overblown, whoever the QB is going to be you are going to have to adjust your scheme to take advantage of what that guy does best.
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@mike-h said:
Crickets.
Also count how many times he gets a pre-snap adjustment from the sidelines, since Albright knocked him for that. I didn't see once.
Still don't like how he "Fades away" unnecessarily like Michael Jordan on some of his passes.
Nobody wants to play
1st Ezekiel Ansah, DE, BYU 3rd Darius Slay, CB, Mississippi State4th Landry Jones, QB, Oklahoma5th Earl Wolff, S, N.C. State6th Lucas Reed, TE, New Mexico -
@walterwhite said:
The people who hate Johnny Manziel will be the first assholes to buy his jersey when he turns into a mega star.
You might need a little more of your blue ice to stabilize Walter. Most people don't "hate" Johnny Manziel. Some of us do question whether his skill set will translate well to the NFL.Most of us just hope we get this draft right. I just might buy a Manziel jersey if he comes to Cleveland and shows he can compete in the NFL. On the other hand if he comes and flops are you going to buy a "I'm a loudmouth douchebag" Tshirt? I think Mik could hook you up.
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I'd love to know why a new scheme has to be invented for Manziel. Please elaborate. Why is he incapable of running a WCO? Why is he incapable of running an Air Coryell influenced vertical attack. Why is he incapable of running an Erhardt-Perkins spread?
I'm awesome, and I fuck dolphins. Ghoolie 12/2/2012: I have absolutely no skills, training or pride -
I'd love to know why a new scheme has to be invented for Manziel. Please elaborate. Why is he incapable of running a WCO? Why is he incapable of running an Air Coryell influenced vertical attack. Why is he incapable of running an Erhardt-Perkins spread?
I never said he couldn't learn any scheme and be successful. I guess I should have been more specific. I feel like he is a different breed of QB unlike anything the NFL has ever seen. To get the most out of his talents, a new style of offense could be developed for his strengths.I'd love to know why a new scheme has to be invented for Manziel. Please elaborate. Why is he incapable of running a WCO? Why is he incapable of running an Air Coryell influenced vertical attack. Why is he incapable of running an Erhardt-Perkins spread?
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now now. i think the only people here that can't open their minds to new ideas are 2 and a few.
yes. JF could come in here and LEARN a system and try to run it the best he could. so can hoyer. so can campbell. or so could carr, fales or garroppollo.
the key is you don't draft an adonis and be so enamored with them that you have to build around that one person.
that is just plain dumb and i think farmer being a scout first and foremost probably sees a lot of the same and if not better in qualities of some QBs in the later rounds.
like i said. let's see what the combine brings. and if all you brought was your agent and a dvd, shame on you. i wouldn't touch you for shit.
there ARE other key positions we need to fill or add depth to SO...............
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@walterwhite said:
The people who hate Johnny Manziel will be the first assholes to buy his jersey when he turns into a mega star.
HA!!
you are such a little boy. i hope we draft sams so you go out and buy his jersey. then you can be the person you really wanna be............
an xbox 360 little queef eating cocoa puffs in your grandma's basement while jerkin off to highlight of JF.
I WILL CRUSH YOU.
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now now. i think the only people here that can't open their minds to new ideas are 2 and a few.
yes. JF could come in here and LEARN a system and try to run it the best he could. so can hoyer. so can campbell. or so could carr, fales or garroppollo.
the key is you don't draft an adonis and be so enamored with them that you have to build around that one person.
that is just plain dumb and i think farmer being a scout first and foremost probably sees a lot of the same and if not better in qualities of some QBs in the later rounds.
like i said. let's see what the combine brings. and if all you brought was your agent and a dvd, shame on you. i wouldn't touch you for shit.
there ARE other key positions we need to fill or add depth to SO...............
now now. i think the only people here that can't open their minds to new ideas are 2 and a few.
yes. JF could come in here and LEARN a system and try to run it the best he could. so can hoyer. so can campbell. or so could carr, fales or garroppollo.
the key is you don't draft an adonis and be so enamored with them that you have to build around that one person.
that is just plain dumb and i think farmer being a scout first and foremost probably sees a lot of the same and if not better in qualities of some QBs in the later rounds.
like i said. let's see what the combine brings. and if all you brought was your agent and a dvd, shame on you. i wouldn't touch you for shit.
there ARE other key positions we need to fill or add depth to SO...............
I agree. That's not what I'm saying. I'm saying that, if JM's skill set is better suited for our offensive system than any of the other QB's available, why wouldn't he be a good pick?
Keep in mind, I'm not a fanboy. I'm still leaning towards Bortles over Manziel. I think this is a good year to be picking QB, simply because each QB possesses a completely different skill set and physical attributes. It's not like there's three statuesque pocket passers or three read option QB's available. We can decide which, in our FO's eyes, will fit our system and then pull the trigger.
All in all, we're in a pretty solid spot.
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now now. i think the only people here that can't open their minds to new ideas are 2 and a few.
yes. JF could come in here and LEARN a system and try to run it the best he could. so can hoyer. so can campbell. or so could carr, fales or garroppollo.
the key is you don't draft an adonis and be so enamored with them that you have to build around that one person.
that is just plain dumb and i think farmer being a scout first and foremost probably sees a lot of the same and if not better in qualities of some QBs in the later rounds.
like i said. let's see what the combine brings. and if all you brought was your agent and a dvd, shame on you. i wouldn't touch you for shit.
there ARE other key positions we need to fill or add depth to SO...............
I agree. That's not what I'm saying. I'm saying that, if JM's skill set is better suited for our offensive system than any of the other QB's available, why wouldn't he be a good pick?
Keep in mind, I'm not a fanboy. I'm still leaning towards Bortles over Manziel. I think this is a good year to be picking QB, simply because each QB possesses a completely different skill set and physical attributes. It's not like there's three statuesque pocket passers or three read option QB's available. We can decide which, in our FO's eyes, will fit our system and then pull the trigger.
All in all, we're in a pretty solid spot.
I agree. That's not what I'm saying. I'm saying that, if JM's skill set is better suited for our offensive system than any of the other QB's available, why wouldn't he be a good pick?
Keep in mind, I'm not a fanboy. I'm still leaning towards Bortles over Manziel. I think this is a good year to be picking QB, simply because each QB possesses a completely different skill set and physical attributes. It's not like there's three statuesque pocket passers or three read option QB's available. We can decide which, in our FO's eyes, will fit our system and then pull the trigger.
All in all, we're in a pretty solid spot.
hey TC i agree. i'm not downing the guy i'm downing the love fest.
in this forum we get to state our opinions. and for a while now i've been stating mine. yes some might agree, some might meet me halfway and others can just call me an asshole. who gives a shit? not me.
if we were to pick a QB with our first pick IMO it should be bortles. yes his skillset is equal if not surpassing some rated above him BUT my reasoning for him other than the others is his physique. he's big and strong enough to take what might be coming to him (being a rookie and all) and getting the shit knocked out of you compared to midget manziel and thin branches bridgewater.
imagine suggs pile driving bridgewater? or manziel on his roll out to the right and hightower flings him into the 3rd row?
trade down, get a number one for next year, get the BPA, then trade our 3rd rounders and move up for a WR or CB. evans or dennard.
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@mike-h said:
Crickets.
Also count how many times he gets a pre-snap adjustment from the sidelines, since Albright knocked him for that. I didn't see once.
Still don't like how he "Fades away" unnecessarily like Michael Jordan on some of his passes.
Nobody wants to play
Nobody wants to play
In a game where Duke could rarely get pressure, Manziel didn't do his usual routine.
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I am not even that big of a hater of JM. I think he could just as easily learn to play within the confines of whatever system he ends up in. I just don't dig any circle jerk about a college prospect. There have been too many busts.
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Todays game is all about the mobile, make plays with your feet QB. JM is the next QB up that fits that bill. So run with it if he's there. Move up to get him if we have to. It really only cost us our 4th pick and 26 which was a windfall pick anyway.
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Nobody wants to play
In a game where Duke could rarely get pressure, Manziel didn't do his usual routine.
In a game where Duke could rarely get pressure, Manziel didn't do his usual routine.
Pick any game you want from 2013
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Does JM ever go under center or is it all out of the shotgun?
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I'd love to know why a new scheme has to be invented for Manziel. Please elaborate. Why is he incapable of running a WCO? Why is he incapable of running an Air Coryell influenced vertical attack. Why is he incapable of running an Erhardt-Perkins spread?
I'd love to know why a new scheme has to be invented for Manziel. Please elaborate. Why is he incapable of running a WCO? Why is he incapable of running an Air Coryell influenced vertical attack. Why is he incapable of running an Erhardt-Perkins spread?
I'd love to know why he takes off running at every opportunity.
@mike-h said:
The only problem I have with that dude, is you can't take a guy just because he looks the part. Bortles has risen quickly because of that, but there are definitely a couple concerns.
I'm drunk, and this guy is far smarter than I am.. would highly recommend reading if you have 15-20 minutes:
Yes Mike I took the time, and Bortels does have accuracy issues. If they're related to footwork, they're correctable. As Mik said he does have the frame to take a pounding in the NFL. At times looked like a poor man's Andrew Luck.
No one is debating Manziel isn't a terrific athlete- can he be a great NFL qb is the question. Lots of happy feet in that video. If Bortles footwork is sloppy at times, Manziel's is about nonexistent. If that's a highlight reel, a couple of bad decisions stood out- throwing 50\50 balls that by all rights should have been intercepted, but his receivers made terrific plays on the ball.
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I'd love to know why a new scheme has to be invented for Manziel. Please elaborate. Why is he incapable of running a WCO? Why is he incapable of running an Air Coryell influenced vertical attack. Why is he incapable of running an Erhardt-Perkins spread?
I'd love to know why he takes off running at every opportunity.
@mike-h said:
The only problem I have with that dude, is you can't take a guy just because he looks the part. Bortles has risen quickly because of that, but there are definitely a couple concerns.
I'm drunk, and this guy is far smarter than I am.. would highly recommend reading if you have 15-20 minutes:
Yes Mike I took the time, and Bortels does have accuracy issues. If they're related to footwork, they're correctable. As Mik said he does have the frame to take a pounding in the NFL. At times looked like a poor man's Andrew Luck.
No one is debating Manziel isn't a terrific athlete- can he be a great NFL qb is the question. Lots of happy feet in that video. If Bortles footwork is sloppy at times, Manziel's is about nonexistent. If that's a highlight reel, a couple of bad decisions stood out- throwing 50\50 balls that by all rights should have been intercepted, but his receivers made terrific plays on the ball.
I'd love to know why he takes off running at every opportunity.
Yes Mike I took the time, and Bortels does have accuracy issues. If they're related to footwork, they're correctable. As Mik said he does have the frame to take a pounding in the NFL. At times looked like a poor man's Andrew Luck.
No one is debating Manziel isn't a terrific athlete- can he be a great NFL qb is the question. Lots of happy feet in that video. If Bortles footwork is sloppy at times, Manziel's is about nonexistent. If that's a highlight reel, a couple of bad decisions stood out- throwing 50\50 balls that by all rights should have been intercepted, but his receivers made terrific plays on the ball.
So you can't logically answer the question.
That says all it needs to.
I'm awesome, and I fuck dolphins. Ghoolie 12/2/2012: I have absolutely no skills, training or pride
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