Jonathan Paul Manziel
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Irrelevant to the point we're discussing. Browns fans, despite your claims, proved beyond a shadow of a doubt that they wanted to be fans of a bad boy QB.
Maybe lots of 12 year olds bought jerseys.
I run a Browns fan website and am president of Browns Backer chapter of 300 or so fans.
Never got the indication that Browns fans want a "bad boy" QB.
Starving for a good one ... yes. Hoping he's a 5'11 elf that flips people off ... no.
But we will take that if he's good.
Pretty simple, really.
Zombo
Your memory is worse than mine...
Zombo said:
I run a Browns fan website and am president of Browns Backer chapter of 300 or so fans.
Never got the indication that Browns fans want a "bad boy" QB.
Starving for a good one ... yes. Hoping he's a 5'11 elf that flips people off ... no.
But we will take that if he's good.
Pretty simple, really.
Zombo
Just my opinion, but I think the above trumps your Austin chapter example.
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Someone else specifically said "what's he going to do when he's blitzed?" or something to that effect.
Your post that I asked you about came right after mine IIRC and since I'm carrying the flag on the "it'd be fun to be a fan of a bad boy Browns quarterback (AKA BBBQB)," I thought it was fair to assume you were talking to me.
So who said that jersey sales and a bad attitude now equaled a good QB?
Someone else specifically said "what's he going to do when he's blitzed?" or something to that effect.
Your post that I asked you about came right after mine IIRC and since I'm carrying the flag on the "it'd be fun to be a fan of a bad boy Browns quarterback (AKA BBBQB)," I thought it was fair to assume you were talking to me.
So who said that jersey sales and a bad attitude now equaled a good QB?
Well you quoted me, so Id assume you were replying to me....see how that works?....but fine....you quoted me but were responding to someone else...ok...
Like me just quoting someone else and you responding as if I was talking to you.....(seems backwards to me).
But if it makes you happy and you seem to LOVE arguing stupid stupid shit, then you never said it....happy?...got a boner now?
bottom line, Im just tired with your none stop multi paragraph argumentative bullshit and pointless diversions from seemingly every single topic......it's tiring.....
And Ive had WAY too much of the Texas Johnny Manlove flooding the boards with gay johnny shit.....and videos of his bad assness...makes me want to puke.....
So....no you didnt say it made him a good QB....
Now go find someone else to argue your stupid bullshit with, cause I aint the one.......
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All I said was it will be really fun to be a fan of his if he's a good pro.
How people get their panties in a wad in response isn't my problem. And make no mistake, they did.
I only posted the videos AFTER Zombo asserted that Johnny was NOT a "bad boy" to prove that he was. But to someone that hasn't been following the debate, that appears as my "Texas Johnny Manlove flooding the boards with gay Johnny shit and videos of his badassness." I only posted that stuff for a very specific purpose.
You're right I did quote you so my bad.
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All is well in Brownsville. Season can't get started soon enough.
And if you don't agree with that then all, including Tour, don't have a clue.
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Your memory is worse than mine...
Zombo said:
I run a Browns fan website and am president of Browns Backer chapter of 300 or so fans.
Never got the indication that Browns fans want a "bad boy" QB.
Starving for a good one ... yes. Hoping he's a 5'11 elf that flips people off ... no.
But we will take that if he's good.
Pretty simple, really.
Zombo
Just my opinion, but I think the above trumps your Austin chapter example.
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Ya'll should have been here during the DA/Quinn era. This is peaceful by comparison.
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Definitely. And no that's not sarcasm.
His future is at least somewhat of a win-win for me either way. Not having to listen to the "you're only here because of Johnny" garbage will be nice.
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Against Rice when some kid was mouthing off to him, he mouthed off right back and pointed at the scoreboard, almost getting ejected IIRC.
Nowhere near getting ejected as I recall... but Summerlin chewed on his ass, but good and IIRC threatened to pull him.
He could be on any NFL teams roster right now.
Ummm... no. I'll bet half the league would not take him for free. Which half is right is still TBD, but it's not looking good for our half.
1. They're not wrong, they are just in the minority.
2. Game managers only work if you have a top 5 defense, a top 10 rushing attack, and great special teams play. If one of those go to shit, you can't rely on your "game manager" to do anything more than manage to lose.
3. This is just people rooting for a guy to fail with no heir apparent currently on the roster.
3. I know you know the difference between "rooting for someone to fail" and performance appraisal whether objective or subjective.
2. It's like you have a copy of Pet's and Farm's blueprint.
1. On the great jersey debate, the only one to cite any relevant data to this point is Z.
I hear you on the FO's willingness to gamble a draft pick, but there are good gambles and bad gambles.
3. I know you know the difference between "rooting for someone to fail" and performance appraisal whether objective or subjective.
2. It's like you have a copy of Pet's and Farm's blueprint.
1. On the great jersey debate, the only one to cite any relevant data to this point is Z.
I hear you on the FO's willingness to gamble a draft pick, but there are good gambles and bad gambles.
His performance has been garbage. I'm not saying anything otherwise, and you'd be hardpressed to find me applauding any of his peformances thus far - with the exception of a few throws in the Buffalo game.
2. I'm not going by their gameplan, I'm going by the general sentiment that seems to be floating around this board. I can't keep track of how many times I've read "strong defense, great running game, game manager at QB" as a rebuttal to the idea of having a franchise quarterback. Fact of the matter is that many posters in here are longing for days long past. You certainly need a strong defense, you definitely need a strong running game...but you also have to have a strong quarterback.
Rex Grossman, Colin Kaepernick and maybe Matt Hasselbeck are the only three non-franchise QB's to make it to the Super Bowl in the past 10 years. It's highly unlikely to make it to the big dance if you don't have a talented guy behind center. Plain and simple.
1. Here's relevant stats related to jersey sales: https://www.nflpa.com/players/news/russell-wilson-defends-retail-crown-on-nfl-players-inc-top-50-player-sales-year-end-list
Top Jersey Sales by player 2014-2015
1. Russell Wilson, Seattle Seahawks
2. Peyton Manning, Denver Broncos
3. Tom Brady, New England Patriots
4. Colin Kaepernick, San Francisco 49ers
5. Aaron Rodgers, Green Bay Packers
6. Dez Bryant, Dallas Cowboys
7. Richard Sherman, Seattle Seahawks
8. J.J. Watt, Houston Texans
9. Marshawn Lynch, Seattle Seahawks
10. Johnny Manziel, Cleveland Browns
11. Jason Witten, Dallas Cowboys
12. Drew Brees, New Orleans Saints
13. Rob Gronkowski, New England Patriots
14. LeSean McCoy, Philadelphia Eagles
15. Andrew Luck, Indianapolis Colts
16. Clay Matthews, Green Bay Packers
17. Tony Romo, Dallas Cowboys
18. Brandon Marshall, Chicago Bears
19. Calvin Johnson, Detroit Lions
20. Odell Beckham Jr., New York Giants
21. Jordy Nelson, Green Bay Packers
22. Eli Manning, New York Giants
23. DeMarco Murray, Dallas Cowboys
24. Cam Newton, Carolina Panthers
25. Robert Griffin III, Washington Redskins
26. Nick Foles, Philadelphia Eagles
27. Adrian Peterson, Minnesota Vikings
28. Jamaal Charles, Kansas City Chiefs
29. Earl Thomas, Seattle Seahawks
30. Kam Chancellor, Seattle Seahawks
31. Eddie Lacy, Green Bay Packers
32. Ryan Tannehill, Miami Dolphins
33. Victor Cruz, New York Giants
34. Luke Kuechly, Carolina Panthers
35. Matt Forte, Chicago Bears
36. Joe Flacco, Baltimore Ravens
37. Patrick Willis, San Francisco 49ers
38. Ben Roethlisberger, Pittsburgh Steelers
39. Troy Polamalu, Pittsburgh Steelers
40. Demaryius Thomas, Denver Broncos
41. Julian Edelman, New England Patriots
42. Antonio Brown, Pittsburgh Steelers
43. LeβVeon Bell, Pittsburgh Steelers
44. Philip Rivers, San Diego Chargers
45. Larry Fitzgerald, Arizona Cardinals
46. Devon Still, Cincinnati Bengals
47. Frank Gore, San Francisco 49ers
48. A.J. Green, Cincinnati Bengals
49. Teddy Twatwater, Minnesota Vikings
50. Wes Welker, Denver Broncos
Not only is Manziel in the top 10, he's the only Brown in the top 50.
I'm awesome, and I fuck dolphins. Ghoolie 12/2/2012: I have absolutely no skills, training or pride -
Troll alert.
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too bad jersey sales don't translate to on-field performance.
my bet is the only way he sees the field this year would be due to injury to mccown.
but until then you and PoG can hold hands and walk down the manziel dirt trail.
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All is well in Brownsville. Season can't get started soon enough.
And if you don't agree with that then all, including Tour, don't have a clue.
All is well in Brownsville. Season can't get started soon enough.
And if you don't agree with that then all, including Tour, don't have a clue.
There's the Ag we all love...
Ok I'll grant you that but it's not exactly checkmate kind of info.
Agree... just check.
2. I'm not going by their gameplan, I'm going by the general sentiment that seems to be floating around this board. I can't keep track of how many times I've read "strong defense, great running game, game manager at QB" as a rebuttal to the idea of having a franchise quarterback. Fact of the matter is that many posters in here are longing for days long past. You certainly need a strong defense, you definitely need a strong running game...but you also have to have a strong quarterback.
Top Jersey Sales by player 2014-2015
10. Johnny Manziel, Cleveland Browns
Not only is Manziel in the top 10, he's the only Brown in the top 50.
Which tells me that Manziel fans and not Browns fans made the difference. All we heard after the draft from "the influx" was how JM Browns' jerseys were hard to keep in stock in Texas. While there is an intersection of the two circles of fans (remember your set theory or Boolean algebra?) I do not think it is that large. Not yet anyway... and it has not exactly been growing.
Without regional data we are both hand-waving.
On the QB... I don't think it is so much a rebuttal as it is the available path. As we've agreed before:
D+RunningGame+FranchiseQB > D+RunningGame+GameManagaingPlaceholder
And someday we will get a Franchise QB.
But until then we build what we can in the other two areas.
Simple...
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3. I know you know the difference between "rooting for someone to fail" and performance appraisal whether objective or subjective.
2. It's like you have a copy of Pet's and Farm's blueprint.
1. On the great jersey debate, the only one to cite any relevant data to this point is Z.
I hear you on the FO's willingness to gamble a draft pick, but there are good gambles and bad gambles.
His performance has been garbage. I'm not saying anything otherwise, and you'd be hardpressed to find me applauding any of his peformances thus far - with the exception of a few throws in the Buffalo game.
2. I'm not going by their gameplan, I'm going by the general sentiment that seems to be floating around this board. I can't keep track of how many times I've read "strong defense, great running game, game manager at QB" as a rebuttal to the idea of having a franchise quarterback. Fact of the matter is that many posters in here are longing for days long past. You certainly need a strong defense, you definitely need a strong running game...but you also have to have a strong quarterback.
Rex Grossman, Colin Kaepernick and maybe Matt Hasselbeck are the only three non-franchise QB's to make it to the Super Bowl in the past 10 years. It's highly unlikely to make it to the big dance if you don't have a talented guy behind center. Plain and simple.
1. Here's relevant stats related to jersey sales: https://www.nflpa.com/players/news/russell-wilson-defends-retail-crown-on-nfl-players-inc-top-50-player-sales-year-end-list
Top Jersey Sales by player 2014-2015
1. Russell Wilson, Seattle Seahawks
2. Peyton Manning, Denver Broncos
3. Tom Brady, New England Patriots
4. Colin Kaepernick, San Francisco 49ers
5. Aaron Rodgers, Green Bay Packers
6. Dez Bryant, Dallas Cowboys
7. Richard Sherman, Seattle Seahawks
8. J.J. Watt, Houston Texans
9. Marshawn Lynch, Seattle Seahawks
10. Johnny Manziel, Cleveland Browns
11. Jason Witten, Dallas Cowboys
12. Drew Brees, New Orleans Saints
13. Rob Gronkowski, New England Patriots
14. LeSean McCoy, Philadelphia Eagles
15. Andrew Luck, Indianapolis Colts
16. Clay Matthews, Green Bay Packers
17. Tony Romo, Dallas Cowboys
18. Brandon Marshall, Chicago Bears
19. Calvin Johnson, Detroit Lions
20. Odell Beckham Jr., New York Giants
21. Jordy Nelson, Green Bay Packers
22. Eli Manning, New York Giants
23. DeMarco Murray, Dallas Cowboys
24. Cam Newton, Carolina Panthers
25. Robert Griffin III, Washington Redskins
26. Nick Foles, Philadelphia Eagles
27. Adrian Peterson, Minnesota Vikings
28. Jamaal Charles, Kansas City Chiefs
29. Earl Thomas, Seattle Seahawks
30. Kam Chancellor, Seattle Seahawks
31. Eddie Lacy, Green Bay Packers
32. Ryan Tannehill, Miami Dolphins
33. Victor Cruz, New York Giants
34. Luke Kuechly, Carolina Panthers
35. Matt Forte, Chicago Bears
36. Joe Flacco, Baltimore Ravens
37. Patrick Willis, San Francisco 49ers
38. Ben Roethlisberger, Pittsburgh Steelers
39. Troy Polamalu, Pittsburgh Steelers
40. Demaryius Thomas, Denver Broncos
41. Julian Edelman, New England Patriots
42. Antonio Brown, Pittsburgh Steelers
43. LeβVeon Bell, Pittsburgh Steelers
44. Philip Rivers, San Diego Chargers
45. Larry Fitzgerald, Arizona Cardinals
46. Devon Still, Cincinnati Bengals
47. Frank Gore, San Francisco 49ers
48. A.J. Green, Cincinnati Bengals
49. Teddy Twatwater, Minnesota Vikings
50. Wes Welker, Denver Broncos
Not only is Manziel in the top 10, he's the only Brown in the top 50.
His performance has been garbage. I'm not saying anything otherwise, and you'd be hardpressed to find me applauding any of his peformances thus far - with the exception of a few throws in the Buffalo game.
2. I'm not going by their gameplan, I'm going by the general sentiment that seems to be floating around this board. I can't keep track of how many times I've read "strong defense, great running game, game manager at QB" as a rebuttal to the idea of having a franchise quarterback. Fact of the matter is that many posters in here are longing for days long past. You certainly need a strong defense, you definitely need a strong running game...but you also have to have a strong quarterback.
Rex Grossman, Colin Kaepernick and maybe Matt Hasselbeck are the only three non-franchise QB's to make it to the Super Bowl in the past 10 years. It's highly unlikely to make it to the big dance if you don't have a talented guy behind center. Plain and simple.
1. Here's relevant stats related to jersey sales: https://www.nflpa.com/players/news/russell-wilson-defends-retail-crown-on-nfl-players-inc-top-50-player-sales-year-end-list
Top Jersey Sales by player 2014-2015
1. Russell Wilson, Seattle Seahawks
2. Peyton Manning, Denver Broncos
3. Tom Brady, New England Patriots
4. Colin Kaepernick, San Francisco 49ers
5. Aaron Rodgers, Green Bay Packers
6. Dez Bryant, Dallas Cowboys
7. Richard Sherman, Seattle Seahawks
8. J.J. Watt, Houston Texans
9. Marshawn Lynch, Seattle Seahawks
10. Johnny Manziel, Cleveland Browns
11. Jason Witten, Dallas Cowboys
12. Drew Brees, New Orleans Saints
13. Rob Gronkowski, New England Patriots
14. LeSean McCoy, Philadelphia Eagles
15. Andrew Luck, Indianapolis Colts
16. Clay Matthews, Green Bay Packers
17. Tony Romo, Dallas Cowboys
18. Brandon Marshall, Chicago Bears
19. Calvin Johnson, Detroit Lions
20. Odell Beckham Jr., New York Giants
21. Jordy Nelson, Green Bay Packers
22. Eli Manning, New York Giants
23. DeMarco Murray, Dallas Cowboys
24. Cam Newton, Carolina Panthers
25. Robert Griffin III, Washington Redskins
26. Nick Foles, Philadelphia Eagles
27. Adrian Peterson, Minnesota Vikings
28. Jamaal Charles, Kansas City Chiefs
29. Earl Thomas, Seattle Seahawks
30. Kam Chancellor, Seattle Seahawks
31. Eddie Lacy, Green Bay Packers
32. Ryan Tannehill, Miami Dolphins
33. Victor Cruz, New York Giants
34. Luke Kuechly, Carolina Panthers
35. Matt Forte, Chicago Bears
36. Joe Flacco, Baltimore Ravens
37. Patrick Willis, San Francisco 49ers
38. Ben Roethlisberger, Pittsburgh Steelers
39. Troy Polamalu, Pittsburgh Steelers
40. Demaryius Thomas, Denver Broncos
41. Julian Edelman, New England Patriots
42. Antonio Brown, Pittsburgh Steelers
43. LeβVeon Bell, Pittsburgh Steelers
44. Philip Rivers, San Diego Chargers
45. Larry Fitzgerald, Arizona Cardinals
46. Devon Still, Cincinnati Bengals
47. Frank Gore, San Francisco 49ers
48. A.J. Green, Cincinnati Bengals
49. Teddy Twatwater, Minnesota Vikings
50. Wes Welker, Denver Broncos
Not only is Manziel in the top 10, he's the only Brown in the top 50.
So? When can we expect these jersey sales to translate into victories?
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too bad jersey sales don't translate to on-field performance.
my bet is the only way he sees the field this year would be due to injury to mccown.
but until then you and PoG can hold hands and walk down the manziel dirt trail.
too bad jersey sales don't translate to on-field performance.
my bet is the only way he sees the field this year would be due to injury to mccown.
but until then you and PoG can hold hands and walk down the manziel dirt trail.
So? When can we expect these jersey sales to translate into victories?
Pointed, but utterly meaningless in relation to the argument. The argument was that his jersey sales drastically dropped, which was indicative of him falling out of favor. I merely countered with proof that he's still a top-10 jersey seller and outsells all other Browns by far.
At no point in these discussions have I been excusing his play or calling for him to become the starter. Nothing I've said in the past few days has had any relation to on-field Johnny. On-field Johnny is still hot garbage and will be hot garbage until he isn't...or until he's released.
But off-field Johnny is, at least, showing signs of improvement. And if off-field Johnny is improving, there's hope that on-field Johnny can.
Tour, you said my bar for him was low. You're right. My bar is as low for him as it is for any person who blows down in a Vegas bathroom, gets smashed and rides an inflatable swan, gets into a fight in his own apartment's lobby, and goes to rehab for months all before the age of 23. Because you set the bar low for disappointments and then raise it as they get better over time. It's no different than physical rehabilitation, special education, or child behavioral therapy. Attainable goals build confidence which, in turn, lower the chance of a relapse.
So, as I've said before, I'm not going to stomp around and be a pathetic old grumpy gus like a lot of people on here want to be in relation to Manziel.
As an aside, I'd also love to take a straw poll of Johnny fans/haters in here as well as age. I think you'd see a clear line in the sand deliniated at a particular age.
I'm awesome, and I fuck dolphins. Ghoolie 12/2/2012: I have absolutely no skills, training or pride -
Look, I'm not one way or the other on Manziel but this is literally just an opinion piece. They don't quote any sources that are relevant-I could start a blog and write the same thing as this. Not a shot at you there Gip but stuff like this is just fodder.
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If you guys aren't going to follow the flow of the debate then don't just come in the middle and expect to be abreast of why certain information was brought up. The original statement was mine, and it was that we would all really enjoy having Johnny as our QB if A. He was good and B. He kept his edge. I cited the jersey sales to prove that people love a bad boy QB. If you're coming here and saying "he sold a lot of jerseys but he still sucks!!!" and thinking you've made an original or insightful point or contributed to the discussion in any meaningful way, you're wrong.
I don't quarrel with the idea that IF all of those jerseys were not purchased by Browns fans, then that citation is worthless and my statement is that much less supported. But I think you have to look at the delta between his sales and those of Weeden or McCoy. They didn't quite have the national hype that Johnny did, but they did have hordes of fans from their college that would have jumped to purchase their jersey.
But lets say the sales were made up of 3 groups:
1. Browns fans
2. A&M fans
3. Non-A&M Johnny fans
You can throw the sales from group 2 out the window. Again, I'll give you that. But even though group 3 aren't Browns fans, they still represent the idea that people in general like a bad boy QB (or whatever Johnny is).
People are operating from the prism of disliking Johnny. That's what they're predisposed to. That's fine. We all get impressions of people and they're hard to turn around. Once Johnny's play on the field changes that predisposition (if his play is every worthy of as much), I suspect people will start to enjoy his edge on the field.
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Looks like Pettine disagrees......so Ill take Pettines word.....actually says this type of report is "irresponsible"
Here's the Espn piece on his Johnny comments from today
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