Jonathan Paul Manziel
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You want him to hold his own or try to ignore the kid? Because people have claimed both in this very thread. So people will always be unhappy one way or the other. That's why I'm with Mik on this, he shouldn't be going to big events.
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Looks like Pettine disagrees......so Ill take Pettines word.....actually says this type of report is "irresponsible"
Here's the Espn piece on his Johnny comments from today
I agree. It is way too early to write off Manziel. I posted a "Browns moving on" article in another thread because I believe this club can win with McCown not that I believe we have moved past Manziel. The article listed a number of reasons why McCown was brought here and how we can win if he is the qb. That is not the best. The best would be for Manziel to win the starting qb position and do well. But if that does not happen I see the wisdom of Pettine and Farmer of keeping a number of options open. One of them is McCown but some people can't get past his 1-10 record at Tampa.
My question would be is if McCown would start and we are not going to be asking a lot out of him why wouldn't that apply to Manziel as well? Manziel could hand the ball off just as well, make the safe passes and even have the ability to scramble if the pocket collapses and make plays with his feet which is something McCown does not have near the agility to do. McCown has the experience but Manziel has more raw talent. It is going to be an interesting year but however it goes this team has the talent to win.
I agree. It is way too early to write off Manziel. I posted a "Browns moving on" article in another thread because I believe this club can win with McCown not that I believe we have moved past Manziel. The article listed a number of reasons why McCown was brought here and how we can win if he is the qb. That is not the best. The best would be for Manziel to win the starting qb position and do well. But if that does not happen I see the wisdom of Pettine and Farmer of keeping a number of options open. One of them is McCown but some people can't get past his 1-10 record at Tampa.
My question would be is if McCown would start and we are not going to be asking a lot out of him why wouldn't that apply to Manziel as well? Manziel could hand the ball off just as well, make the safe passes and even have the ability to scramble if the pocket collapses and make plays with his feet which is something McCown does not have near the agility to do. McCown has the experience but Manziel has more raw talent. It is going to be an interesting year but however it goes this team has the talent to win.
McCown is (gulp) a more polished NFL QB. And don't write off his athleticism, McCown is plenty athletic as well. He very well may be the best basketball player on the team, according to some.
McCown can read defenses quicker, make safer throws and distribute the ball to soft spots in the defense, whereas Manziel may be a half second behind on those reads.
But Manziel certainly has a much higher ceiling. Whoever gives the Browns the best chance to win -THATS who should be the starter. Even if it's Shaw (which I would love).
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We're really just arguing out of our own experience, which is pretty pointless (although I actually have experience being a fan of Johnny when he was good).Zombo said:
12 year olds. Heisman trophy. Social media whore ... hence jersey sales
None of my friends want a "bad boy" ... not even a wannabe bottle-tossing badboy.
Just shut up and win or we move on to the next one.
Zombo
McCoy was the winningest college quarterback of all time, fresh off a 13-1 season with a team that had been top 2 or 3 in national branding for about a decade, but I suppose no 12 year olds wanted his jersey and the delta between his and Manziel's sales is strictly due to little kids? This makes no sense.
We're really just arguing out of our own experience, which is pretty pointless (although I actually have experience being a fan of Johnny when he was good).
McCoy was the winningest college quarterback of all time, fresh off a 13-1 season with a team that had been top 2 or 3 in national branding for about a decade, but I suppose no 12 year olds wanted his jersey and the delta between his and Manziel's sales is strictly due to little kids? This makes no sense.
Colt was a third round pick and not seen as a "savior" by hardly anyone,
Weeden was not a popular pick,
Quinn would be the comparison.
Z
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The president of the Austin Browns Backers is a UT grad and I saw him in a Manziel jersey at the draft party. But he's just another 12 year old and/or Aggie, apparently.
The president of the Austin Browns Backers is a UT grad and I saw him in a Manziel jersey at the draft party. But he's just another 12 year old and/or Aggie, apparently.
I said half the jerseys were 12 year old boys and the other half were in Texas. I assume the Prez of the Austin BB lives in Texas.
Z
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The president of the Austin Browns Backers is a UT grad and I saw him in a Manziel jersey at the draft party. But he's just another 12 year old and/or Aggie, apparently.
I said half the jerseys were 12 year old boys and the other half were in Texas. I assume the Prez of the Austin BB lives in Texas.
Z
Zombo said:
I said half the jerseys were 12 year old boys and the other half were in Texas. I assume the Prez of the Austin BB lives in Texas.
Z
I see plenty of adult males at the Charlotte Backer bar wearing Manziel jerseys.
But I'm sure theyre all gay. Or Retarded. Or adopted. Or anything else you think to be lesser than an able-bodied white adult male.
I'm awesome, and I fuck dolphins. Ghoolie 12/2/2012: I have absolutely no skills, training or pride -
Zombo said:
I said half the jerseys were 12 year old boys and the other half were in Texas. I assume the Prez of the Austin BB lives in Texas.
Z
I see plenty of adult males at the Charlotte Backer bar wearing Manziel jerseys.
But I'm sure theyre all gay. Or Retarded. Or adopted. Or anything else you think to be lesser than an able-bodied white adult male.
I see plenty of adult males at the Charlotte Raw Backer bar `
and they see you.
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The president of the Austin Browns Backers is a UT grad and I saw him in a Manziel jersey at the draft party. But he's just another 12 year old and/or Aggie, apparently.
I said half the jerseys were 12 year old boys and the other half were in Texas. I assume the Prez of the Austin BB lives in Texas.
Z
Zombo said:
I said half the jerseys were 12 year old boys and the other half were in Texas. I assume the Prez of the Austin BB lives in Texas.
Z
Ok I thought you were referring to Aggies.
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The Only Team in the State of Ohio That has no QB issues "THE Ohio State Buckeyes".. Just Wait
The Only Team in the State of Ohio That has no QB issues "THE Ohio State Buckeyes".. Just Wait
You've got to be kidding me. At least if you meant OSU. You have three quarterbacks and only one football. In order of pro potential- at this point it's clearly 1) Jones, 2) Barrett, 3) Miller. MHO is Miller was out of his mind not to transfer, he's got about zero chance of beating out the other two. Regarding zero, that's about his potential as a NFL quarterback. Shoulda switched to wr while he had the chance.
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I see plenty of adult males at the Charlotte Raw Backer bar `
and they see you.
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Zombo said:
I said half the jerseys were 12 year old boys and the other half were in Texas. I assume the Prez of the Austin BB lives in Texas.
Z
I see plenty of adult males at the Charlotte Backer bar wearing Manziel jerseys.
But I'm sure theyre all gay. Or Retarded. Or adopted. Or anything else you think to be lesser than an able-bodied white adult male.
I see plenty of adult males at the Charlotte Backer bar wearing Manziel jerseys.
But I'm sure theyre all gay. Or Retarded. Or adopted. Or anything else you think to be lesser than an able-bodied white adult male.
So now you think I'm a bigot?
Because I said his biggest fans were Texas men and young kids?
Zombo
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At least there are a lot of good QBs worth watching this year in college football. Here are some of the guys who might just end up being NFL-type QBs that come out in 2016:
Connor Cook, Michigan State - needs a good season to prove he is worth an early 1st
Christian Hackenberg, Penn State - if he has a good year, he could very well go #1 overall
Cardale Jones, Ohio State - needs to show he can produce for an entire season, and be consistent
Jonathan Goff, Cal - great size, and a good pocket-passer. Looks like he could be a potential starter
Dak Prescott, Mississippi State - needs to become a better passer, but I'm not sure we'll see that
Cody Kessler, USC - needs to show good arm strength and accuracy to overcome his small size
Patrick Towles, Kentucky - may not come out until 2017
Gunner Kiel, Cincinnati - what a great name for a QB. He's got a shot at a great season
Kevin Hogan, Stanford - very disappointing in 2014. Hopefully, this year he flashes some of the potential everybody seems to think he has
Jacoby Brissett, NC State - he may not come out until 2017, unless he lights it up. Good size and arm strength
Travis Wilson, Utah - needs to become more consistent.
Looks like we could potentially have 4 1st round QBs coming out next year... but, there's a long way to go. It will be fun to watch Big 10 games knowing 3 top QBs will be competing for draft position.
My prediction as to who becomes the best prospect - Christian Hackenberg
My prediction as a sleeper, who could be taken in the 1st - Kevin Hogan
The guy I just like, and I'm hoping he improves - Travis Wilson
I think we'll be QB shopping next year in the draft, so we might as well start looking at the names that might pop up...
At least there are a lot of good QBs worth watching this year in college football. Here are some of the guys who might just end up being NFL-type QBs that come out in 2016:
Connor Cook, Michigan State - needs a good season to prove he is worth an early 1st
Christian Hackenberg, Penn State - if he has a good year, he could very well go #1 overall
Cardale Jones, Ohio State - needs to show he can produce for an entire season, and be consistent
Jonathan Goff, Cal - great size, and a good pocket-passer. Looks like he could be a potential starter
Dak Prescott, Mississippi State - needs to become a better passer, but I'm not sure we'll see that
Cody Kessler, USC - needs to show good arm strength and accuracy to overcome his small size
Patrick Towles, Kentucky - may not come out until 2017
Gunner Kiel, Cincinnati - what a great name for a QB. He's got a shot at a great season
Kevin Hogan, Stanford - very disappointing in 2014. Hopefully, this year he flashes some of the potential everybody seems to think he has
Jacoby Brissett, NC State - he may not come out until 2017, unless he lights it up. Good size and arm strength
Travis Wilson, Utah - needs to become more consistent.
Looks like we could potentially have 4 1st round QBs coming out next year... but, there's a long way to go. It will be fun to watch Big 10 games knowing 3 top QBs will be competing for draft position.
My prediction as to who becomes the best prospect - Christian Hackenberg
My prediction as a sleeper, who could be taken in the 1st - Kevin Hogan
The guy I just like, and I'm hoping he improves - Travis Wilson
I think we'll be QB shopping next year in the draft, so we might as well start looking at the names that might pop up...
Cardale may still end up being third string.
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The Only Team in the State of Ohio That has no QB issues "THE Ohio State Buckeyes".. Just Wait
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too bad jersey sales don't translate to on-field performance.
my bet is the only way he sees the field this year would be due to injury to mccown.
but until then you and PoG can hold hands and walk down the manziel dirt trail.
So? When can we expect these jersey sales to translate into victories?
Pointed, but utterly meaningless in relation to the argument. The argument was that his jersey sales drastically dropped, which was indicative of him falling out of favor. I merely countered with proof that he's still a top-10 jersey seller and outsells all other Browns by far.
At no point in these discussions have I been excusing his play or calling for him to become the starter. Nothing I've said in the past few days has had any relation to on-field Johnny. On-field Johnny is still hot garbage and will be hot garbage until he isn't...or until he's released.
But off-field Johnny is, at least, showing signs of improvement. And if off-field Johnny is improving, there's hope that on-field Johnny can.
Tour, you said my bar for him was low. You're right. My bar is as low for him as it is for any person who blows down in a Vegas bathroom, gets smashed and rides an inflatable swan, gets into a fight in his own apartment's lobby, and goes to rehab for months all before the age of 23. Because you set the bar low for disappointments and then raise it as they get better over time. It's no different than physical rehabilitation, special education, or child behavioral therapy. Attainable goals build confidence which, in turn, lower the chance of a relapse.
So, as I've said before, I'm not going to stomp around and be a pathetic old grumpy gus like a lot of people on here want to be in relation to Manziel.
As an aside, I'd also love to take a straw poll of Johnny fans/haters in here as well as age. I think you'd see a clear line in the sand deliniated at a particular age.
Pointed, but utterly meaningless in relation to the argument. The argument was that his jersey sales drastically dropped, which was indicative of him falling out of favor. I merely countered with proof that he's still a top-10 jersey seller and outsells all other Browns by far.
Pray tell how a single year's sales data proves that sales have not fallen?
I don't quarrel with the idea that IF all of those jerseys were not purchased by Browns fans, then that citation is worthless and my statement is that much less supported. But I think you have to look at the delta between his sales and those of Weeden or McCoy. They didn't quite have the national hype that Johnny did, but they did have hordes of fans from their college that would have jumped to purchase their jersey.
Can't speak to Colt's arrival as it predated me, but I was here for Wheezy's and if there was an influx of fans, then I must have blinked and missed it. On the other hand Manziel's influx was barely tolerable.
"Did not quite have" might be the understatement of the YTD. Johnny's celebrity fueled by style of play and a Heisman jacked his celebrity to heights Colt never achieved. But that's just my opinion vs yours.
It's the fact that you invoke Wheezy that shows how desperate you are to support your argument.
My question would be is if McCown would start and we are not going to be asking a lot out of him why wouldn't that apply to Manziel as well? Manziel could hand the ball off just as well, make the safe passes and even have the ability to scramble if the pocket collapses and make plays with his feet which is something McCown does not have near the agility to do. McCown has the experience but Manziel has more raw talent. It is going to be an interesting year but however it goes this team has the talent to win.
You came close to answering your own question... raw. JM simply has neither the game knowledge to fill a game manager role. Play calling and reads are critical to that role. But even more importantly JM has not displayed the personality, the temperament, the patience to stay in that role.
If he had both of those critical elements, then for the second year in a row we would not be looking to a journeyman for leadership who has had only one stretch where he displayed both of those elements.
"When you have a shared vision it is a lot easier to make unpopular decisions." - Paul DePodesta "When you win, say nothing. When you lose, say less." - Paul Brown Complete 2017 Browns Board Mock: http://thebrownsboard.com/forums/index.php?showtopic=46196 -
Any Aggie that said Johnny was just going to coast to NFL success was delusional. Very few people are knowledgeable about both the college game and the pro game and when people try to comment on the other they generally sound really dumb. So I apologize to you on behalf of any Aggies that tried to shove Johnny down your throat like that.
I was always bearish on him as an NFL QB. I was excited when the Browns drafted him just because I knew the opportunity for success was here. But as a guy who wants the best for the Browns, I was mum on the idea of picking him, but thought we got solid value at 22.
But once he was in the fold it was what it was. I'm certainly not going to crap on the kid at every opportunity, just as I wouldn't with anyone else, especially another Brown.
Any Aggie that said Johnny was just going to coast to NFL success was delusional. Very few people are knowledgeable about both the college game and the pro game and when people try to comment on the other they generally sound really dumb. So I apologize to you on behalf of any Aggies that tried to shove Johnny down your throat like that.
Thanks... could have used you a year ago. Closest thing to an objective JM fan we had was Ag69... not coincidentally he's the only one still here.
And we wished it was simply down our throats... mostly it was up our asses... which might help explain what you see as JM overreactions from time to time.
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Pointed, but utterly meaningless in relation to the argument. The argument was that his jersey sales drastically dropped, which was indicative of him falling out of favor. I merely countered with proof that he's still a top-10 jersey seller and outsells all other Browns by far.
Pray tell how a single year's sales data proves that sales have not fallen?
I don't quarrel with the idea that IF all of those jerseys were not purchased by Browns fans, then that citation is worthless and my statement is that much less supported. But I think you have to look at the delta between his sales and those of Weeden or McCoy. They didn't quite have the national hype that Johnny did, but they did have hordes of fans from their college that would have jumped to purchase their jersey.
Can't speak to Colt's arrival as it predated me, but I was here for Wheezy's and if there was an influx of fans, then I must have blinked and missed it. On the other hand Manziel's influx was barely tolerable.
"Did not quite have" might be the understatement of the YTD. Johnny's celebrity fueled by style of play and a Heisman jacked his celebrity to heights Colt never achieved. But that's just my opinion vs yours.
It's the fact that you invoke Wheezy that shows how desperate you are to support your argument.
My question would be is if McCown would start and we are not going to be asking a lot out of him why wouldn't that apply to Manziel as well? Manziel could hand the ball off just as well, make the safe passes and even have the ability to scramble if the pocket collapses and make plays with his feet which is something McCown does not have near the agility to do. McCown has the experience but Manziel has more raw talent. It is going to be an interesting year but however it goes this team has the talent to win.
You came close to answering your own question... raw. JM simply has neither the game knowledge to fill a game manager role. Play calling and reads are critical to that role. But even more importantly JM has not displayed the personality, the temperament, the patience to stay in that role.
If he had both of those critical elements, then for the second year in a row we would not be looking to a journeyman for leadership who has had only one stretch where he displayed both of those elements.
Pray tell how a single year's sales data proves that sales have not fallen?
They've fallen huge.....that 10th place is where he finished for all of 2014....not where his sales are now.....so he started as #1 and finished at tenth(which, by average, means his sales were well below tenth by year end.....
In fact....IN CLEVELAND......Hoyer outsold Manziel and overtook him by October(which was pretty fast).....here's the link....
So....based upon this.....Id say Cleveland Fans are more into winners than bad boys....
Not only is Manziel in the top 10, he's the only Brown in the top 50.
That is Nationally and not where he is now(10th in sales).....he is waaaaaay down from that.....but in Cleveland??....Local CLEVELAND jersey sales have Haden as #1....Whitner as #2.....Thomas #3....
Last year, in Cleveland only.....Hoyer was #1....Haden #2....Whitner #3.....Thomas #4......Manziel #5
Here's a "current link" showing he's not even top 25 right now.....
http://7online.com/sports/marcus-mariota-edges-jameis-winston-in-monthly-nfl-jersey-sales/763907/
But lets say the sales were made up of 3 groups:
1. Browns fans
2. A&M fans
3. Non-A&M Johnny fans
You can throw the sales from group 2 out the window. Again, I'll give you that. But even though group 3 aren't Browns fans, they still represent the idea that people in general like a bad boy QB (or whatever Johnny is).
Honestly not trying to be a dick.....but just because you like his bad guy image AND he sold some jerseys, it doesnt mean that evrybody is buying the jerseys because they like bad guys....thats a flawed premise......Rookie 1st round QB's lead the league in jersey sales EVERY year.....
This year #1 is already Mariota....so is that because he's a bad boy?.....cause here's an article that says exactly the opposite...that he's selling jerseys because he's "squeaky clean"....(I dont buy either premise really).....
http://bleacherreport.com/articles/2474225-marcus-mariota-reportedly-tops-nfls-jersey-sales-for-may
Honestly, using "your" premise......I love Subway.....RG3 broke records selling jerseys and Hoyer passed JFF.....so therefore jersey buyers MUST love QB's who eat at Subway.....
Bottom line......1st round QB's sell jerseys.....Heisman winners sell jerseys......and you cant just say it's because of this or that.....it happens every single year....whether they are a Good guy, bad guy or Subway guy....
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Here's another interesting link to Dicks....a Cleveland Sporting Goods retailer.......and they rank their current jersey sales(with graphs and everything)......Id think this is a GREAT indicator for CLEVELAND fans buying habits.....JFF is currently #31, btw......
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Browns fans buying habits? Wow I knew we had that one nun who was an Indians fan. Im glad to see the Browns fans reciprocating to the fine women of the Catholic Church.
WSS
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and if you look at the national map, which shows sales by state, you'll see Johnny was #1 in 3 states.....OK, KY and OH.....and considering he was 5th in Cleveland, it's pretty apparent his sales were vastly inflated by "new Browns fans".....
Using the map, it's obvious almost ALL areas are buying jerseys for their local players(closest teams)...except OK.....
http://www.dsg.com/pages/best-selling-nfl-jerseys-by-state
and if you use the map and go by TEAM sales, you'll see OK is unique as one of only 2 states who favor a team far far away (as arkansas likes the Stoolers)....
http://www.dsg.com/pages/best-selling-nfl-jerseys-by-state
So, if OK has JFF as #1 and the Browns as #1, we can assume that they sold a HUGE amount of JFF jerseys.....
And KY sold more Cinn jerseys, yet had JFF as #1 too......so.....more PROOF that JFF's jerseys sold more elsewhere...
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just think (!)
if he stays out of the spotlight all this peripheral talk will fade away into nothingness...................................................
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Pointed, but utterly meaningless in relation to the argument. The argument was that his jersey sales drastically dropped, which was indicative of him falling out of favor. I merely countered with proof that he's still a top-10 jersey seller and outsells all other Browns by far.
Pray tell how a single year's sales data proves that sales have not fallen?
I don't quarrel with the idea that IF all of those jerseys were not purchased by Browns fans, then that citation is worthless and my statement is that much less supported. But I think you have to look at the delta between his sales and those of Weeden or McCoy. They didn't quite have the national hype that Johnny did, but they did have hordes of fans from their college that would have jumped to purchase their jersey.
Can't speak to Colt's arrival as it predated me, but I was here for Wheezy's and if there was an influx of fans, then I must have blinked and missed it. On the other hand Manziel's influx was barely tolerable.
"Did not quite have" might be the understatement of the YTD. Johnny's celebrity fueled by style of play and a Heisman jacked his celebrity to heights Colt never achieved. But that's just my opinion vs yours.
It's the fact that you invoke Wheezy that shows how desperate you are to support your argument.
My question would be is if McCown would start and we are not going to be asking a lot out of him why wouldn't that apply to Manziel as well? Manziel could hand the ball off just as well, make the safe passes and even have the ability to scramble if the pocket collapses and make plays with his feet which is something McCown does not have near the agility to do. McCown has the experience but Manziel has more raw talent. It is going to be an interesting year but however it goes this team has the talent to win.
You came close to answering your own question... raw. JM simply has neither the game knowledge to fill a game manager role. Play calling and reads are critical to that role. But even more importantly JM has not displayed the personality, the temperament, the patience to stay in that role.
If he had both of those critical elements, then for the second year in a row we would not be looking to a journeyman for leadership who has had only one stretch where he displayed both of those elements.
Pray tell how a single year's sales data proves that sales have not fallen?
Can't speak to Colt's arrival as it predated me, but I was here for Wheezy's and if there was an influx of fans, then I must have blinked and missed it. On the other hand Manziel's influx was barely tolerable.
"Did not quite have" might be the understatement of the YTD. Johnny's celebrity fueled by style of play and a Heisman jacked his celebrity to heights Colt never achieved. But that's just my opinion vs yours.
It's the fact that you invoke Wheezy that shows how desperate you are to support your argument.
You came close to answering your own question... raw. JM simply has neither the game knowledge to fill a game manager role. Play calling and reads are critical to that role. But even more importantly JM has not displayed the personality, the temperament, the patience to stay in that role.
If he had both of those critical elements, then for the second year in a row we would not be looking to a journeyman for leadership who has had only one stretch where he displayed both of those elements.
Only invoked Weeden because they were drafted in the same spot.
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