***Jets VS Browns Gameday Thread***
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Baker isn't getting the ball out on time and to the open guy. In fact, it looks like he regressed into the same exact guy he was under Hue and Haley. Holding the ball, taking sacks, and missing high. Baker is NOT comfortable, and this is a bigger problem than people are saying.
This is a GREAT observation. Had not been able to put my finger on it. Last season at his best Baker played loose. Good call.
This is a GREAT observation. Had not been able to put my finger on it. Last season at his best Baker played loose. Good call.
Bingo...
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Game Summary: We were underwhelming victors over a significantly diminished team... but...
... there were some things to build upon. Namely:
- hustling D...
- "better" discipline... especially on Offense and STs... and in our 2ndary...
- Chubb...
- the threat that is OBJ realized...
- A FG kicker... and a Punter...
Concerns remain however...
- Baker's inconsistency... more on this below...
- Njoku's brain... face it... he's our only TE "threat"... our only athlete at the position...
- Higgins' knee... going to need him as the #3 next week...
- Roughing the passer... just give him a big hug, twist and make him fall on you, Myles...
On Baker...
The good news is that when he cut the ball loose, he was by and large on target. Examples abound including the deep ball to OBJ's one-hander and, although it was a tad behind him, the quick slant to BJ that put the game away.
The bad news was that many other throws were aimed, not "cut loose", and nearly every one was off target... most often high. Not sure if this is Baker being "cautious" or if he's unsure of want he sees... or the weight of team expectations getting to him, but.... it's gotta stop.
We need the Baker of 2018... the QB that lead a team with no hope of playoff contention with abandon.
Easier to say than to do, but he he doesn't loosen/lighten up, then we aren't going anywhere.
We need the Baker of 2018... the QB that lead a team with no hope of playoff contention with abandon.
Easier to say than to do, but he he doesn't loosen/lighten up, then we aren't going anywhere.
True, but I think Baker is playing different because he knows there are more limitations with his offensive line. Every qb that gets big pressure has it usually affect his play. I think Kitchens needs to call more short throws and Baker needs to not force the big long gains that he's used to.
Depends on the defense they face, I suppose. Williams' defense is pretty good and stopping the rush....?
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Tried to sign up for the new Tavern........... makes me wish we had the old shitty one instead. Guess I'll artificially up my post count on this thread so I really look like I know what I'm talking about.
I finally got it. What a pain.
I did urge everyone to register and check it out EARLY...
Some people are simply uncoachable...
I did urge everyone to register and check it out EARLY...
Some people are simply uncoachable...
I was busy coaching some players half my age and less on the finer points of racquetball for about 3 1/2 hours up until about an hour before gametime. Had to refuel first before eventually finding my way on. That salty small bag of popcorn you recommended at halftime hit the spot on recharging the salt water levels.??
️
EDIT: Oh yeah and some Venezuelan chocolate from El Rey Chocolates in Stonewall, Texas. They sell only Venezuelan chocolate there. But it's right in the heart of the wine district along the Pedernales River.
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This is a GREAT observation. Had not been able to put my finger on it. Last season at his best Baker played loose. Good call.
Baker hasn't regressed, the defenses and game planning have advanced. And the oline isn't the same at center. Didn't Baker play in an air raid type offense in college? He looks for the longer throws, and then if he chooses (throwing into double coverage is fixable...) he can check down/throw for a shorter gain. Baker is brilliant - he'll learn quickly. Of course, Williams knows him and tried to mess with him with aggressive defense. How about that play that gave Williams a week of indigestion - the pass to OBJ who took it for a TD?
Williams will be one hateful dude all this next week. Baker and OBJ made him pay dearly.
Baker hasn't regressed, the defenses and game planning have advanced. And the oline isn't the same at center.
He has regressed... in his effectiveness... as I see it as well because is playing "tighter".
And Tretter was the Center last season... started all 16 games. Only OL change is Zeitler's missing at RG.
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Or a stud corner/safety came on to the market that they scouted heavily who is in his second year with plenty of years left. The steeler defense is immediately better.
While this is true....he was, perhaps is, considered a stud; and he does make that defensive backfield better imo. They were bad, but now they are better. Still does not help with the QB situation....which remains to be seen....and only helps a bit with the talent deficit now from prior years.
And what is the status of the Conner injury?
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Baker hasn't regressed, the defenses and game planning have advanced. And the oline isn't the same at center.
He has regressed... in his effectiveness... as I see it as well because is playing "tighter".
And Tretter was the Center last season... started all 16 games. Only OL change is Zeitler's missing at RG.
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Baker seemed hesitant and indecisive at times, especially when he tried rolling out. There were constantly issues with getting the play in on time and getting the play off before the clock struck -0-. It greatly disallowed him from reading the defenses properly. Why is this? Freddie being indecisive in his play calling?
IMO being both HC and OC doesn't work....we have seen it fail here before, most recently with Hue. Maybe it will just take Freddie time since he has only 2 games under his belt......but the upcoming schedule does not give him time.
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We need the Baker of 2018... the QB that lead a team with no hope of playoff contention with abandon.
Easier to say than to do, but he he doesn't loosen/lighten up, then we aren't going anywhere.
True, but I think Baker is playing different because he knows there are more limitations with his offensive line. Every qb that gets big pressure has it usually affect his play. I think Kitchens needs to call more short throws and Baker needs to not force the big long gains that he's used to.
Depends on the defense they face, I suppose. Williams' defense is pretty good and stopping the rush....?
True, but I think Baker is playing different because he knows there are more limitations with his offensive line. Every qb that gets big pressure has it usually affect his play. I think Kitchens needs to call more short throws and Baker needs to not force the big long gains that he's used to.
Depends on the defense they face, I suppose. Williams' defense is pretty good and stopping the rush....?
I think your cause and effect are disjointed...
Last season Baker was great at getting the ball out quickly with only the occasional deep shot... I really don't see a major difference in the playcalling this season so far excepting fewer snaps under Center which is the key to an effective PAP attack.
Plus so far our rushing attack has been good... certainly was in Game 2. Game 1? Not that much less so, but we were playing behind the sticks so much due to penalties that we couldn't go to it as much.
Otherwise what is different is that Baker is not getting the ball out quickly???
- Could be better coverage, but Given the upgrade of our WR crew, I doubt it.
- Could be rust... but rust more explains "bad" than inconsistent...
- Is he not reading the D as effectively? Maybe, but again, I doubt it.
- Is he turning down windows he threw into last year? I think so... and the only reason he would is that he's gotten "cautious"...
That's my theory and I'm stickin' to it....
Freddie!!! More snaps under Center, PLEASE... Set up that PAP game!
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I did urge everyone to register and check it out EARLY...
Some people are simply uncoachable...
I was busy coaching some players half my age and less on the finer points of racquetball for about 3 1/2 hours up until about an hour before gametime. Had to refuel first before eventually finding my way on. That salty small bag of popcorn you recommended at halftime hit the spot on recharging the salt water levels.??
️
EDIT: Oh yeah and some Venezuelan chocolate from El Rey Chocolates in Stonewall, Texas. They sell only Venezuelan chocolate there. But it's right in the heart of the wine district along the Pedernales River.
@tour2ma said:
I urge all that plan to enter The Browns Board Tavern (TBBT) to do so well in advance of kickoff. This will include registering (free) and verifying your email addy, a requirement I have been able to set.
I was busy coaching some players half my age and less on the finer points of racquetball for about 3 1/2 hours up until about an hour before gametime. ??
️
Peddle it somewhere else, Gramps...
I "urged" last Thursday! ?
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@tour2ma said:
I urge all that plan to enter The Browns Board Tavern (TBBT) to do so well in advance of kickoff. This will include registering (free) and verifying your email addy, a requirement I have been able to set.
I was busy coaching some players half my age and less on the finer points of racquetball for about 3 1/2 hours up until about an hour before gametime. ??
️
Peddle it somewhere else, Gramps...
I "urged" last Thursday! ?
Peddle it somewhere else, Gramps...
I "urged" last Thursday! ?
I don't recall that-Gramps Ag?
BTW my grandkids gave me a T-shirt that reads:
GRAMPS.
THE MAN.
THE MYTH.
THE LEGEND.
?
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True, but I think Baker is playing different because he knows there are more limitations with his offensive line. Every qb that gets big pressure has it usually affect his play. I think Kitchens needs to call more short throws and Baker needs to not force the big long gains that he's used to.
Depends on the defense they face, I suppose. Williams' defense is pretty good and stopping the rush....?
I think your cause and effect are disjointed...
Last season Baker was great at getting the ball out quickly with only the occasional deep shot... I really don't see a major difference in the playcalling this season so far excepting fewer snaps under Center which is the key to an effective PAP attack.
Plus so far our rushing attack has been good... certainly was in Game 2. Game 1? Not that much less so, but we were playing behind the sticks so much due to penalties that we couldn't go to it as much.
Otherwise what is different is that Baker is not getting the ball out quickly???
- Could be better coverage, but Given the upgrade of our WR crew, I doubt it.
- Could be rust... but rust more explains "bad" than inconsistent...
- Is he not reading the D as effectively? Maybe, but again, I doubt it.
- Is he turning down windows he threw into last year? I think so... and the only reason he would is that he's gotten "cautious"...
That's my theory and I'm stickin' to it....
Freddie!!! More snaps under Center, PLEASE... Set up that PAP game!
I think your cause and effect are disjointed...
Last season Baker was great at getting the ball out quickly with only the occasional deep shot... I really don't see a major difference in the playcalling this season so far excepting fewer snaps under Center which is the key to an effective PAP attack.
Plus so far our rushing attack has been good... certainly was in Game 2. Game 1? Not that much less so, but we were playing behind the sticks so much due to penalties that we couldn't go to it as much.
Otherwise what is different is that Baker is not getting the ball out quickly???
- Could be better coverage, but Given the upgrade of our WR crew, I doubt it.
- Could be rust... but rust more explains "bad" than inconsistent...
- Is he not reading the D as effectively? Maybe, but again, I doubt it.
- Is he turning down windows he threw into last year? I think so... and the only reason he would is that he's gotten "cautious"...
That's my theory and I'm stickin' to it....
Freddie!!! More snaps under Center, PLEASE... Set up that PAP game!
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I saw the same as Tour did. I cannot tell if the playcalling was that different (I'm not an expert) but the sense for me was that Baker didn't want to force the ball.
I'm OK with it for a few reasons: 1. There are games like last night in which the only thing that the offense is required to do is scoring some points and not making mistakes. I'd take a boring win before a rollercoaster of losses and wins all season through.
2. I'd rather see Baker being "overcautious" some games in order to learn when to take risks than him not changing one bit. Jameis Winston comes to mind. He ALWAYS takes risks and I haven't seen a calm game by him ever. Smart people learn to tune their instincts and change their habbits. Probaboy Baker was a bit overcautious and not "loose" but him being able to changing his playstyle a bit shows me that he is able to change and progress. In any case, you always can count on him "loosening up" in some laser throws every once in a while, as we saw yesterday.
I have always been afraid of Baker turning into an INT machine due to his aggresiveness, so watching him being calm yesterday is not that bad for me.
EDIT: I don't expect him to end up becoming a cerebral Tom Brady, but I don't want a Favre either.
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I don't recall that-Gramps Ag?
BTW my grandkids gave me a T-shirt that reads:
GRAMPS.
THE MAN.
THE MYTH.
THE LEGEND.
ALL IN HIS OWN MIND
?
fify
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I saw the same as Tour did. I cannot tell if the playcalling was that different (I'm not an expert) but the sense for me was that Baker didn't want to force the ball.
I'm OK with it for a few reasons: 1. There are games like last night in which the only thing that the offense is required to do is scoring some points and not making mistakes. I'd take a boring win before a rollercoaster of losses and wins all season through.
2. I'd rather see Baker being "overcautious" some games in order to learn when to take risks than him not changing one bit. Jameis Winston comes to mind. He ALWAYS takes risks and I haven't seen a calm game by him ever. Smart people learn to tune their instincts and change their habbits. Probaboy Baker was a bit overcautious and not "loose" but him being able to changing his playstyle a bit shows me that he is able to change and progress. In any case, you always can count on him "loosening up" in some laser throws every once in a while, as we saw yesterday.
I have always been afraid of Baker turning into an INT machine due to his aggresiveness, so watching him being calm yesterday is not that bad for me.
EDIT: I don't expect him to end up becoming a cerebral Tom Brady, but I don't want a Favre either.
1. There are games like last night in which the only thing that the offense is required to do is scoring some points and not making mistakes. I'd take a boring win before a rollercoaster of losses and wins all season through.
2. I'd rather see Baker being "overcautious" some games in order to learn when to take risks than him not changing one bit. Jameis Winston comes to mind. He ALWAYS takes risks and I haven't seen a calm game by him ever. Smart people learn to tune their instincts and change their habbits. Probaboy Baker was a bit overcautious and not "loose" but him being able to changing his playstyle a bit shows me that he is able to change and progress. In any case, you always can count on him "loosening up" in some laser throws every once in a while, as we saw yesterday.
I have always been afraid of Baker turning into an INT machine due to his aggresiveness, so watching him being calm yesterday is not that bad for me.
EDIT: I don't expect him to end up becoming a cerebral Tom Brady, but I don't want a Favre either.
- Agree... but (see below)...
- "Overcautious(ness)" has no place in football... sorry. Not trying to go all semantical on ya (even tho I prolly am), but the word is "conservative"... and it should reside on the sideline with the playcaller.... not on the field.
Yes, Freddie should have been relatively conservative all nite... and even more with us up 10 and our D dominating the depleted Jets Offense. Even the quick slant to OBJ for the gamebreaker was a conservative call. That said...
Whatever route combination is in a call Freddie phones into Baker, it is then Baker's job to select the best possible target based upon the reads he gets pre- and post-snap... and then cut it loose to that target. And "cut it loose" is the operative phrase... you can't guide the ball... you can't aim it... you cut it loose. It's the same for a frozen rope as it is a touch pass. Same as it is for an MLB pitcher... fast ball or change up or curve... you cut it loose and trust your body to remember the thousands of times you've thrown that pitch before. I'm sure there are analogous futbol examples as well.
IF you cut it loose and have been fooled and it leads to a pick, then you tip your hat to the opposing DC and get busy learning how you were fooled so We don't Get Fooled again... No NO!
This is the NFL... windows are more often than not tight even for open targets.
We know Baker can do this... we saw it last year and we saw it in Game 1 and we saw it last nite. It's just that we're seeing "something else" we've not seen before this season.
"When you have a shared vision it is a lot easier to make unpopular decisions." - Paul DePodesta "When you win, say nothing. When you lose, say less." - Paul Brown Complete 2017 Browns Board Mock: http://thebrownsboard.com/forums/index.php?showtopic=46196 -
Myles racking up the yards
Jurassic Myles. Hey, you're a smart guy. After you get a penalty for the first QB crush, I would hope you wouldn't do it again a second time. WRONG.
Also acquired Minkah Fitzpatrick from MIA via 1st rounder
Go figure that one Vag. Sure, you got a great player- but don't tell me he's the one piece that gets you to the Super Bowl this year. Serious upgrade to the Steelers piss poor secondary? Sure. and if Goodell had a ethical bone in his body, he'd block the Dolphins from essentially dismantling their team. Haven't looked, but I'll bet the odds in Vegas are pretty short now for the 'Fins replicating 0-16.
This might possibly be the least exciting win I've seen in a long while. More questions than answers for me. Still 1-1 is a whole lot better than 0-2.
I'll take a relatively ugly win over an artistic loss anytime. Baker was distinctly "off". Wonder if the wrist is bothering him more than he's letting on.... And Williams more than any D- coordinator in the NFL knew exactly how to mess with Baker.
the question was if the Browns could dominate- and they did. case closed, get ready for the Rams....
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1. There are games like last night in which the only thing that the offense is required to do is scoring some points and not making mistakes. I'd take a boring win before a rollercoaster of losses and wins all season through.
2. I'd rather see Baker being "overcautious" some games in order to learn when to take risks than him not changing one bit. Jameis Winston comes to mind. He ALWAYS takes risks and I haven't seen a calm game by him ever. Smart people learn to tune their instincts and change their habbits. Probaboy Baker was a bit overcautious and not "loose" but him being able to changing his playstyle a bit shows me that he is able to change and progress. In any case, you always can count on him "loosening up" in some laser throws every once in a while, as we saw yesterday.
I have always been afraid of Baker turning into an INT machine due to his aggresiveness, so watching him being calm yesterday is not that bad for me.
EDIT: I don't expect him to end up becoming a cerebral Tom Brady, but I don't want a Favre either.
- Agree... but (see below)...
- "Overcautious(ness)" has no place in football... sorry. Not trying to go all semantical on ya (even tho I prolly am), but the word is "conservative"... and it should reside on the sideline with the playcaller.... not on the field.
Yes, Freddie should have been relatively conservative all nite... and even more with us up 10 and our D dominating the depleted Jets Offense. Even the quick slant to OBJ for the gamebreaker was a conservative call. That said...
Whatever route combination is in a call Freddie phones into Baker, it is then Baker's job to select the best possible target based upon the reads he gets pre- and post-snap... and then cut it loose to that target. And "cut it loose" is the operative phrase... you can't guide the ball... you can't aim it... you cut it loose. It's the same for a frozen rope as it is a touch pass. Same as it is for an MLB pitcher... fast ball or change up or curve... you cut it loose and trust your body to remember the thousands of times you've thrown that pitch before. I'm sure there are analogous futbol examples as well.
IF you cut it loose and have been fooled and it leads to a pick, then you tip your hat to the opposing DC and get busy learning how you were fooled so We don't Get Fooled again... No NO!
This is the NFL... windows are more often than not tight even for open targets.
We know Baker can do this... we saw it last year and we saw it in Game 1 and we saw it last nite. It's just that we're seeing "something else" we've not seen before this season.
- Agree... but (see below)...
- "Overcautious(ness)" has no place in football... sorry. Not trying to go all semantical on ya (even tho I prolly am), but the word is "conservative"... and it should reside on the sideline with the playcaller.... not on the field.
Yes, Freddie should have been relatively conservative all nite... and even more with us up 10 and our D dominating the depleted Jets Offense. Even the quick slant to OBJ for the gamebreaker was a conservative call. That said...
Whatever route combination is in a call Freddie phones into Baker, it is then Baker's job to select the best possible target based upon the reads he gets pre- and post-snap... and then cut it loose to that target. And "cut it loose" is the operative phrase... you can't guide the ball... you can't aim it... you cut it loose. It's the same for a frozen rope as it is a touch pass. Same as it is for an MLB pitcher... fast ball or change up or curve... you cut it loose and trust your body to remember the thousands of times you've thrown that pitch before. I'm sure there are analogous futbol examples as well.
IF you cut it loose and have been fooled and it leads to a pick, then you tip your hat to the opposing DC and get busy learning how you were fooled so We don't Get Fooled again... No NO!
This is the NFL... windows are more often than not tight even for open targets.
We know Baker can do this... we saw it last year and we saw it in Game 1 and we saw it last nite. It's just that we're seeing "something else" we've not seen before this season.
True that. Though there are some factors that may have affected his performance last night.
First, I wouldn't say the Jets have a bad defense and second and foremost, Njoku and other receivers have got pretty big hits on 50/50 passes that Baker had made, so he might have been thinking on not risking another receiver.
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Or a stud corner/safety came on to the market that they scouted heavily who is in his second year with plenty of years left. The steeler defense is immediately better.
Me and Tour addressed this in another thread- Sure, as with the Browns "drafting" OBJ with our first round pick, you "drafted" Minkah with your first round pick next year. Great- probably better than you could have done, unless the Steeler train derails this year- and if you don't think that's a distinct possibility, you have your rose colored homer glasses on. What I'm seeing for the Steelers in 2020 is what we're going to see from them in 2019, going to be mighty tough to upgrade. Now if by another stroke of Steeler luck, Rudolph turns out to be another third round QB Russell Wilson good, it might be another story. I will say right now I'm taking the Steelers to go 0-3 when they travel to the West coast to play the 49ers this week.
Did you just call me Vag or are you referring to the actual vag?
?
LOL, see above...
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1. There are games like last night in which the only thing that the offense is required to do is scoring some points and not making mistakes. I'd take a boring win before a rollercoaster of losses and wins all season through.
2. I'd rather see Baker being "overcautious" some games in order to learn when to take risks than him not changing one bit. Jameis Winston comes to mind. He ALWAYS takes risks and I haven't seen a calm game by him ever. Smart people learn to tune their instincts and change their habbits. Probaboy Baker was a bit overcautious and not "loose" but him being able to changing his playstyle a bit shows me that he is able to change and progress. In any case, you always can count on him "loosening up" in some laser throws every once in a while, as we saw yesterday.
I have always been afraid of Baker turning into an INT machine due to his aggresiveness, so watching him being calm yesterday is not that bad for me.
EDIT: I don't expect him to end up becoming a cerebral Tom Brady, but I don't want a Favre either.
- Agree... but (see below)...
- "Overcautious(ness)" has no place in football... sorry. Not trying to go all semantical on ya (even tho I prolly am), but the word is "conservative"... and it should reside on the sideline with the playcaller.... not on the field.
Yes, Freddie should have been relatively conservative all nite... and even more with us up 10 and our D dominating the depleted Jets Offense. Even the quick slant to OBJ for the gamebreaker was a conservative call. That said...
Whatever route combination is in a call Freddie phones into Baker, it is then Baker's job to select the best possible target based upon the reads he gets pre- and post-snap... and then cut it loose to that target. And "cut it loose" is the operative phrase... you can't guide the ball... you can't aim it... you cut it loose. It's the same for a frozen rope as it is a touch pass. Same as it is for an MLB pitcher... fast ball or change up or curve... you cut it loose and trust your body to remember the thousands of times you've thrown that pitch before. I'm sure there are analogous futbol examples as well.
IF you cut it loose and have been fooled and it leads to a pick, then you tip your hat to the opposing DC and get busy learning how you were fooled so We don't Get Fooled again... No NO!
This is the NFL... windows are more often than not tight even for open targets.
We know Baker can do this... we saw it last year and we saw it in Game 1 and we saw it last nite. It's just that we're seeing "something else" we've not seen before this season.
- Agree... but (see below)...
- "Overcautious(ness)" has no place in football... sorry. Not trying to go all semantical on ya (even tho I prolly am), but the word is "conservative"... and it should reside on the sideline with the playcaller.... not on the field.
Yes, Freddie should have been relatively conservative all nite... and even more with us up 10 and our D dominating the depleted Jets Offense. Even the quick slant to OBJ for the gamebreaker was a conservative call. That said...
Whatever route combination is in a call Freddie phones into Baker, it is then Baker's job to select the best possible target based upon the reads he gets pre- and post-snap... and then cut it loose to that target. And "cut it loose" is the operative phrase... you can't guide the ball... you can't aim it... you cut it loose. It's the same for a frozen rope as it is a touch pass. Same as it is for an MLB pitcher... fast ball or change up or curve... you cut it loose and trust your body to remember the thousands of times you've thrown that pitch before. I'm sure there are analogous futbol examples as well.
IF you cut it loose and have been fooled and it leads to a pick, then you tip your hat to the opposing DC and get busy learning how you were fooled so We don't Get Fooled again... No NO!
This is the NFL... windows are more often than not tight even for open targets.
We know Baker can do this... we saw it last year and we saw it in Game 1 and we saw it last nite. It's just that we're seeing "something else" we've not seen before this season.
I'm noticing Baker not seeing guys who are wide open, and His accuracy is nowhere near as consistent as last year. I posited elsewhere that you can't discount the supposed minor wrist injury has something to do with it. And at least in the Jets game, Williams had an entire week to figure out how to confuse a QB he knew better than any other one in the NFL.
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As soon as Baker and Offensive Coaching staff understand that OBJ, Landry, Chubb and Hunt in a couple months are YAC maniacs and you don’t need to feed the ball to them 20-30 yards down the field. Things will look better. Right now Baker is attempting 20 tough throws a game probably 10-12 more than most QBs in the NFL
food for thought
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