Don't Bet Against Quinn
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Other than trying to check Shep against the boards (which is futile as you know), what's your point Z?
The article paints a Cleveland Brown player in a positive light with some pretty good foundational points as support.
Good stuff.
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@shepwrite said:
Quinn can throw the ball as far or farther than Peyton Manning. I'd bet on it.okay. bet on it.
bet the farm.
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@shepwrite said:
Consider it betten.Unless it's the biggest hoax ever, it's been oft reported that Quinn can throw 70 yards to an actual receiver. Doerschuck called it his "trick."
yeah you've been trying to say that forever.
problem is, we don't need your "oft reported" bullshit. we actually saw him try to go deep. and it wasn't pretty.
Quinn couldn't throw a baseball 70 yds.
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Haven't even read the article yet
Read it. Its a good article.
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I've watched Notre Dame religiously since I played for them my first time ever playing football - 6 yrs old.
I am not saying Quinn is the guy, but I will tell you that playing those good teams and coming up short was a team deal, not a Quinn thing. He did everything he could in those games against better teams, much more than DA did last season when things fell apart. When Quinn was getting no support in those games and his defense couldn't stop anyone, he never gave up or made stupid play after stupid play, like DA did last season.
That is not an endorsement of Quinn, but at least you know he won't give the game away - like DA does 1/2 the time.
But you are comparing what DA did in the Pros against what BQ did in college and that is not a fair comparision. DA won all of his bowl games in college aand DA beat the great USC and their defense and only lost at Number 1 LSU because the kicker missed 3 extra points (lost by one). So if you are only looking at college then DA did not give away the big game and though he did throw allot of ints he usually was the reason that Oregon State won its big games (including ND).
This is not an endorsement of DA, but does go to show that college does not really translate into the pros and that hopefully when BQ plays a full year he has a better year than DA did at a year younger than BQ is this year (basically same experiance coming in)10 wins, 3700 yards and 29TDs and most importantly I hope to see growth out of BQ and not regression.
And if you want to talk about hanging on to what people did in college then please go talk to allot of the BQ people, that is all they have at this point. I don't disagree that BQ should start this year but he is NO Peyton Manning. If he was RAC could not had kept him off the field last year. People act as if BQ did not have his chance to shine when DA was out with a head injury in the preseason. What did he show? Did he show he was ready to start and without out question he was a can't miss QB? I don't think so. He showed that he might be able to lead a team, that although he was pron to some bad throws and decisions that he could make some pretty good throws (like the 20 yard out to steptoe I believe). BQ is not WINNING the QB position battle he is basically getting it handed to him because DA did not take advantage of his chance to start last year (though you could say that in DA's healthy starts that he did pretty good). Niether QB has looked good so far in this preseason, BQ has looked a little less bad.
BQ will start this year, of that I have no doubt. I also think that the Browns will win 8 or 9 games this year because of better coaching and a improved defense. Stop trying to make it seem like BQ is the second coming of Peyton Manning or Joe Montana or even Tom Brady. I am just hoping he is not the second coming of Charlie Frye. BQ is not and I repeat IS NOT a can't miss QB. He has the skill set and brains to be a very productive QB in the NFL but please stop with this all time greatest stuff. I am hoping he can be a Drew Brees type of QB, one that can carry your team if needed and is really good but is not going to go to the hall of fame.
Let BQ put a few starts together before we really try and decide what he is. After all if you look at DA and BQ at the same times in their careers(age, starts and situation) they are basically the same as far as production goes with DA having a slight advantage in most catergories including completion percentage. That is by comparing both of their NFL stats vs each other at similar points in their careers. As far as the golden arm Maxwell trophy goes from college, not having looked it up but I can bet there are a number of QBs that totally floped in the NFL that won that trophy.
Oh and just a point, Ty Willingham got fired for having a better record than Charlie Weiss. Charlie won his games with Ty Willinghams players. Charlie Wiess is one hell of a OC but as a head coach he blows. He will win allot of games this year because of his schedule not because ND is a good team. If he played a Big 12, Big 10, ACC, SEC, Pac 10 or even a Big East schedule he would be near 500 win percentage at best.
But you are comparing what DA did in the Pros against what BQ did in college and that is not a fair comparision. DA won all of his bowl games in college aand DA beat the great USC and their defense and only lost at Number 1 LSU because the kicker missed 3 extra points (lost by one). So if you are only looking at college then DA did not give away the big game and though he did throw allot of ints he usually was the reason that Oregon State won its big games (including ND).
This is not an endorsement of DA, but does go to show that college does not really translate into the pros and that hopefully when BQ plays a full year he has a better year than DA did at a year younger than BQ is this year (basically same experiance coming in)10 wins, 3700 yards and 29TDs and most importantly I hope to see growth out of BQ and not regression.
Not completely accurate I'm afraid... DA never beat USC, got real close and nearly single-handedly beat them his senior year, lost on a Reggie Bush punt return, also lost his first bowl game to Pittsburgh. On the other hand... DA took a team that had been to 1 bowl game in 30 years to three straight bowls, winning his last two... DA nearly beat USC and LSU despite OSU having the worst rushing attack in the NCAA (70 yards a game, #117 in D1 ball) his senior year...
And to the guy from Arizona who keeps insisting DA never improved in college... his completion percentage went from 46.4 to 54.7 over the course of his starting years, his TD/Int ratio went from 1/1 his junior year under a new coach and offense to almost 2/1 his senior year.... All this while going through 2 coaches and 2 offenses in 3 years and playing a schedule Sagarin rated as the #2 toughest schedule in the nation his senior year. Not saying his numbers were tremendous, but he definitely had improvement even though he had no running game around him and was working in a system he'd only been in for a year. If Leinart had been in the same situation he'd have people saying he sucked as a college QB too, rather than winning the Heisman that year.
I'd say both of these kids that are vying for the Browns' QB job have a shot at starting in the league for a while.
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Eric Murtaugh said:
From 2004 to 2006 Notre Dame lost 12 games while Brady Quinn was under center for the Fighting Irish. Given how he has been portrayed as the guy who couldn't win the big game (remind you of a certain player with a blue #18 on his jersey?) you would think Brady Quinn wouldn't have played very well in these losses.But over these 12 losses Quinn amassed the following statistics:
261 for 478 (54.6 %), 3,199 yards, 23 TD—12 INT
Of course, that excludes his first year starting, over which he accumulated the following losing game stats:
- 115 for 245 (46.9 %), 1,328 yards, 6 TD—12 INT
- 61 for 128 (47.7 %), 656 yards, 8 TD—5 INT
- that he didn't always appear composed when facing pressure
- concerns about his accuracy, especially on deep throws (some didn't think this was an issue, but Todd McShay clearly did)
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Thanks Drunk, you are correct I was wrong. Went back and double checked what I thought and you are correct. 2 - 1 in bowl games and no wins VS USC. But did play one of the hardest schedules in the country every year. Out of curiosity what was ND's schedule ranked during BQs reign?
Either way this has nothing to do with how they will do as pros, which is actually my point. But sorry for the misrepresentation.
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But you are comparing what DA did in the Pros against what BQ did in college and that is not a fair comparision. DA won all of his bowl games in college aand DA beat the great USC and their defense and only lost at Number 1 LSU because the kicker missed 3 extra points (lost by one). So if you are only looking at college then DA did not give away the big game and though he did throw allot of ints he usually was the reason that Oregon State won its big games (including ND).
This is not an endorsement of DA, but does go to show that college does not really translate into the pros and that hopefully when BQ plays a full year he has a better year than DA did at a year younger than BQ is this year (basically same experiance coming in)10 wins, 3700 yards and 29TDs and most importantly I hope to see growth out of BQ and not regression.
Not completely accurate I'm afraid... DA never beat USC, got real close and nearly single-handedly beat them his senior year, lost on a Reggie Bush punt return, also lost his first bowl game to Pittsburgh. On the other hand... DA took a team that had been to 1 bowl game in 30 years to three straight bowls, winning his last two... DA nearly beat USC and LSU despite OSU having the worst rushing attack in the NCAA (70 yards a game, #117 in D1 ball) his senior year...
And to the guy from Arizona who keeps insisting DA never improved in college... his completion percentage went from 46.4 to 54.7 over the course of his starting years, his TD/Int ratio went from 1/1 his junior year under a new coach and offense to almost 2/1 his senior year.... All this while going through 2 coaches and 2 offenses in 3 years and playing a schedule Sagarin rated as the #2 toughest schedule in the nation his senior year. Not saying his numbers were tremendous, but he definitely had improvement even though he had no running game around him and was working in a system he'd only been in for a year. If Leinart had been in the same situation he'd have people saying he sucked as a college QB too, rather than winning the Heisman that year.
I'd say both of these kids that are vying for the Browns' QB job have a shot at starting in the league for a while.
And to the guy from Arizona who keeps insisting DA never improved in college... his completion percentage went from 46.4 to 54.7 over the course of his starting years, his TD/Int ratio went from 1/1 his junior year under a new coach and offense to almost 2/1 his senior year.... All this while going through 2 coaches and 2 offenses in 3 years and playing a schedule Sagarin rated as the #2 toughest schedule in the nation his senior year. Not saying his numbers were tremendous, but he definitely had improvement even though he had no running game around him and was working in a system he'd only been in for a year. If Leinart had been in the same situation he'd have people saying he sucked as a college QB too, rather than winning the Heisman that year.
I guess you can consider that an improvement, but it's really not a significant one. In fact, his TD:INT ratio DECREASED from his sophomore to junior year, only to spike in his senior year. That shows me nothing but inconsistency and mediocrity.
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And to the guy from Arizona who keeps insisting DA never improved in college... his completion percentage went from 46.4 to 54.7 over the course of his starting years, his TD/Int ratio went from 1/1 his junior year under a new coach and offense to almost 2/1 his senior year.... All this while going through 2 coaches and 2 offenses in 3 years and playing a schedule Sagarin rated as the #2 toughest schedule in the nation his senior year. Not saying his numbers were tremendous, but he definitely had improvement even though he had no running game around him and was working in a system he'd only been in for a year. If Leinart had been in the same situation he'd have people saying he sucked as a college QB too, rather than winning the Heisman that year.
I guess you can consider that an improvement, but it's really not a significant one. In fact, his TD:INT ratio DECREASED from his sophomore to junior year, only to spike in his senior year. That shows me nothing but inconsistency and mediocrity.
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@shepwrite said:
Consider it betten.Unless it's the biggest hoax ever, it's been oft reported that Quinn can throw 70 yards to an actual receiver. Doerschuck called it his "trick."
yeah you've been trying to say that forever.
problem is, we don't need your "oft reported" bullshit. we actually saw him try to go deep. and it wasn't pretty.
Quinn couldn't throw a baseball 70 yds.
yeah you've been trying to say that forever.
problem is, we don't need your "oft reported" bullshit. we actually saw him try to go deep. and it wasn't pretty.
Quinn couldn't throw a baseball 70 yds.
Ok I can give you that,
But remember, we've seen DA try to throw the ball five yards - which is thrown a lot more than the 70 yard ball in the NFL -- and it wasn't pretty.
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yeah you've been trying to say that forever.
problem is, we don't need your "oft reported" bullshit. we actually saw him try to go deep. and it wasn't pretty.
Quinn couldn't throw a baseball 70 yds.
Ok I can give you that,
But remember, we've seen DA try to throw the ball five yards - which is thrown a lot more than the 70 yard ball in the NFL -- and it wasn't pretty.
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And to the guy from Arizona who keeps insisting DA never improved in college... his completion percentage went from 46.4 to 54.7 over the course of his starting years, his TD/Int ratio went from 1/1 his junior year under a new coach and offense to almost 2/1 his senior year.... All this while going through 2 coaches and 2 offenses in 3 years and playing a schedule Sagarin rated as the #2 toughest schedule in the nation his senior year. Not saying his numbers were tremendous, but he definitely had improvement even though he had no running game around him and was working in a system he'd only been in for a year. If Leinart had been in the same situation he'd have people saying he sucked as a college QB too, rather than winning the Heisman that year.
I guess you can consider that an improvement, but it's really not a significant one. In fact, his TD:INT ratio DECREASED from his sophomore to junior year, only to spike in his senior year. That shows me nothing but inconsistency and mediocrity.
I guess you can consider that an improvement, but it's really not a significant one. In fact, his TD:INT ratio DECREASED from his sophomore to junior year, only to spike in his senior year. That shows me nothing but inconsistency and mediocrity.
The coaches and the offense changed after his sophomore year.
If you take a look at the history of quaterback performances under coach Riley at OSU, you'll find... DA was one of the leaders in the nation for Ints his first year in the offense and led the nation the first few weeks the next year then improved. He's in the NFL now. His immediate replacement, Matt Moore, led the nation in Int's his first year in the offense, and also the first few weeks of his second year in the system. He's in the NFL now. His immediate replacements, Sean Canfield and Lyle Moevao, combined to lead the nation in Ints their first year (even though Canfield had been in the system for a year or two) and again led the nation for the first couple weeks of the next year... yet to be seen if one of these guys goes on to the NFL.
High risk, high reward. Apparently it's a tough O to break into. One thing each of the newer kids have that DA did not get the benefit of is a very good offensive line and a very decent to great running game every year they've played. DA did have a great running game, but a poor line by all accounts, his junior year. His senior year he was on his own, behind a weak line and no running help, yet he did improve. I'd have loved to see him play behind the line the Beavers have now, even one more year in the system would have made a huge difference in many people's perception of him.
When you look at a QB, you need to look at the hand their dealt. Even the best QB is going to have a tough time without a solid team around him.
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Thanks Drunk, you are correct I was wrong. Went back and double checked what I thought and you are correct. 2 - 1 in bowl games and no wins VS USC. But did play one of the hardest schedules in the country every year. Out of curiosity what was ND's schedule ranked during BQs reign?
Either way this has nothing to do with how they will do as pros, which is actually my point. But sorry for the misrepresentation.
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I guess you can consider that an improvement, but it's really not a significant one. In fact, his TD:INT ratio DECREASED from his sophomore to junior year, only to spike in his senior year. That shows me nothing but inconsistency and mediocrity.
The coaches and the offense changed after his sophomore year.
If you take a look at the history of quaterback performances under coach Riley at OSU, you'll find... DA was one of the leaders in the nation for Ints his first year in the offense and led the nation the first few weeks the next year then improved. He's in the NFL now. His immediate replacement, Matt Moore, led the nation in Int's his first year in the offense, and also the first few weeks of his second year in the system. He's in the NFL now. His immediate replacements, Sean Canfield and Lyle Moevao, combined to lead the nation in Ints their first year (even though Canfield had been in the system for a year or two) and again led the nation for the first couple weeks of the next year... yet to be seen if one of these guys goes on to the NFL.
High risk, high reward. Apparently it's a tough O to break into. One thing each of the newer kids have that DA did not get the benefit of is a very good offensive line and a very decent to great running game every year they've played. DA did have a great running game, but a poor line by all accounts, his junior year. His senior year he was on his own, behind a weak line and no running help, yet he did improve. I'd have loved to see him play behind the line the Beavers have now, even one more year in the system would have made a huge difference in many people's perception of him.
When you look at a QB, you need to look at the hand their dealt. Even the best QB is going to have a tough time without a solid team around him.
The coaches and the offense changed after his sophomore year.
When you look at a QB, you need to look at the hand their dealt. Even the best QB is going to have a tough time without a solid team around him.
You do understand that both of those sentences apply to Quinn's tenure at Notre Dame, right?
"I will not insult your intelligence by suggesting you really believe what you just said." William F Buckley -
@shepwrite said:
Consider it betten.Unless it's the biggest hoax ever, it's been oft reported that Quinn can throw 70 yards to an actual receiver. Doerschuck called it his "trick."
yeah you've been trying to say that forever.
problem is, we don't need your "oft reported" bullshit. we actually saw him try to go deep. and it wasn't pretty.
Quinn couldn't throw a baseball 70 yds.
yeah you've been trying to say that forever.
problem is, we don't need your "oft reported" bullshit. we actually saw him try to go deep. and it wasn't pretty.
Quinn couldn't throw a baseball 70 yds.
I am going to make this easy...in 2008 Joyner did a mid year analysis between Romo and E.Manning to determine who was the better QB. Follow along and you will understand how this is important...patience!!!
At that point in the season, E.Manning had thrown 219 times and Romo 191 times.
Here is the key:
Short passes
Manning: 139 (63.5% of his passes)
Romo: 132 (69.1% of his passes)
Add in the intermediate routes
Manning: 48 (21.9%)
Romo: 35 (19.3%)
And you get
Manning: 187/219 (85.4%)
Romo: 167/191 (87.4%)
So, two QB's that are pretty decent and get their teams to the playoffs pretty consistently are throwing OVER 85% OF THEIR PASSES LESS THAN 20 YARDS
In contrast, the threw the ball over 30 yards:
Manning: 13 (5.9%)
Romo: 10 (5.2%)
Romo is considered a gunslinger by many....so try to tell me now why it is important for Quinn to throw the ball over 70 yards again....no, please....tell me why that is important!!!
When 85% of your success is determined by your short to intermediate passing game, I think the fact a guy can lob it the length of the field is pretty much a moot point!
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The coaches and the offense changed after his sophomore year.
When you look at a QB, you need to look at the hand their dealt. Even the best QB is going to have a tough time without a solid team around him.
You do understand that both of those sentences apply to Quinn's tenure at Notre Dame, right?
You do understand that both of those sentences apply to Quinn's tenure at Notre Dame, right?
Brady Quinn did get a new coach.
The second sentence stands. Nearly every lineman and several receivers Brady Quinn played behind his last two years got drafted, a free agent signing, or a strong sniff from the NFL within a year of his leaving Notre Dame. Several were on team rosters last year. DA had 1 lineman and two receivers that got NFL sniffs within a year of his leaving OSU. I looked it up last year.
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Eric Murtaugh said:
From 2004 to 2006 Notre Dame lost 12 games while Brady Quinn was under center for the Fighting Irish. Given how he has been portrayed as the guy who couldn't win the big game (remind you of a certain player with a blue #18 on his jersey?) you would think Brady Quinn wouldn't have played very well in these losses.But over these 12 losses Quinn amassed the following statistics:
261 for 478 (54.6 %), 3,199 yards, 23 TD—12 INT
Of course, that excludes his first year starting, over which he accumulated the following losing game stats:
- 115 for 245 (46.9 %), 1,328 yards, 6 TD—12 INT
- 61 for 128 (47.7 %), 656 yards, 8 TD—5 INT
- that he didn't always appear composed when facing pressure
- concerns about his accuracy, especially on deep throws (some didn't think this was an issue, but Todd McShay clearly did)
Aloysius said:
So the win/loss rubric may not be all that helpful. You'd be better off looking at Quinn's stats in games where he faced a lot of pressure, like the '06 opener against Georgia Tech. Or just ditching the college stats & judging him based on his play this year.ND faced a dual ground threat in GT's RB (Tashard Choice) & QB not to mention some bum of a NCAA receiver Calvin Johnson. GT ran all over the Irish that game. So what does Quinn do? Runs one in in the final moments of the half to knot it up.
The difference in those "intangibles" (that have become such a bad word for some reason) for me, as a fan, is that I've watched Quinn hate to lose. I have yet to see that from Derek Anderson. I hate to lose too.
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Aloysius said:
So the win/loss rubric may not be all that helpful. You'd be better off looking at Quinn's stats in games where he faced a lot of pressure, like the '06 opener against Georgia Tech. Or just ditching the college stats & judging him based on his play this year.ND faced a dual ground threat in GT's RB (Tashard Choice) & QB not to mention some bum of a NCAA receiver Calvin Johnson. GT ran all over the Irish that game. So what does Quinn do? Runs one in in the final moments of the half to knot it up.
The difference in those "intangibles" (that have become such a bad word for some reason) for me, as a fan, is that I've watched Quinn hate to lose. I have yet to see that from Derek Anderson. I hate to lose too.
ND faced a dual ground threat in GT's RB (Tashard Choice) & QB not to mention some bum of a NCAA receiver Calvin Johnson. GT ran all over the Irish that game. So what does Quinn do? Runs one in in the final moments of the half to knot it up.
The difference in those "intangibles" (that have become such a bad word for some reason) for me, as a fan, is that I've watched Quinn hate to lose. I have yet to see that from Derek Anderson. I hate to lose too.
Hmmmm... apparently you didn't watch DA lead a come from behind win, including the longest run from the line of scrimmage by a Brown that year, in his first NFL game. Add to that the other last minute drives he put together in a few games his first full season, I don't think he's a quitter at any rate.
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You do understand that both of those sentences apply to Quinn's tenure at Notre Dame, right?
Brady Quinn did get a new coach.
The second sentence stands. Nearly every lineman and several receivers Brady Quinn played behind his last two years got drafted, a free agent signing, or a strong sniff from the NFL within a year of his leaving Notre Dame. Several were on team rosters last year. DA had 1 lineman and two receivers that got NFL sniffs within a year of his leaving OSU. I looked it up last year.
Nearly every lineman and several receivers Brady Quinn played behind his last two years got drafted, a free agent signing, or a strong sniff from the NFL within a year of his leaving Notre Dame. Several were on team rosters last year. DA had 1 lineman and two receivers that got NFL sniffs within a year of his leaving OSU. I looked it up last year.
And tell me - which player is still on a roster, and who is starting? Carlson the TE?
"I will not insult your intelligence by suggesting you really believe what you just said." William F Buckley -
ND faced a dual ground threat in GT's RB (Tashard Choice) & QB not to mention some bum of a NCAA receiver Calvin Johnson. GT ran all over the Irish that game. So what does Quinn do? Runs one in in the final moments of the half to knot it up.
The difference in those "intangibles" (that have become such a bad word for some reason) for me, as a fan, is that I've watched Quinn hate to lose. I have yet to see that from Derek Anderson. I hate to lose too.
Hmmmm... apparently you didn't watch DA lead a come from behind win, including the longest run from the line of scrimmage by a Brown that year, in his first NFL game. Add to that the other last minute drives he put together in a few games his first full season, I don't think he's a quitter at any rate.
Hmmmm... apparently you didn't watch DA lead a come from behind win..... I don't think he's a quitter at any rate.
He is not quitter, but damn if he doesn't make stupid ass mistakes.
He does come from behind so infrequently, and has just as many games where he blows it, that it is very hard to give him any more chances. If we didn't have an unknown in Quinn to take a look at, we'd be waiting for the chance that the rookie we just drafted would get in.
Why is it so hard to understand that some Browns fans are fed up with his boneheaded plays game after game.
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