Martinez trade talks
-
this is getting rediculous i cant belive we are trading victor who are we going to have next year to come and see besides sizemore if he dont get traded in the off season which at this rate i wouldnt put it past the front office this is just stupid and i dont plan on going to a game next year either now
this is getting rediculous i cant belive we are trading victor who are we going to have next year to come and see besides sizemore if he dont get traded in the off season which at this rate i wouldnt put it past the front office this is just stupid and i dont plan on going to a game next year either now
Again, 31yr old catcher. While he's shown solid control of the pitching staff behind the plate and he manages the game well, his defense is nowhere near his offense. And as he ages, it will not only get worse, but take a serious toll on his offense.
Couldn't even trade Sizemore for acceptable value now so you don't have to worry.
If Victor moved to 1B full time, he would be a solid AL 1B. Defensively he can play the position, but now you're looking at a team that has well below average power numbers at every IF position and probably one corner OF.
And people can get upset about why Victor didn't land Bucholz, Bard, Bowden. but that's pretty unrealistic. Lee and Martinez MIGHT have pulled that off.
Shapiro and his staff have been good to great at evaluating talent, and bringing in hauls of prospects via trade that have greatly improved the team. They just have not drafted very well. Too conservative in my opinion. But I never have, nor will I ever say a nice thing about Wedge. Since day 1, I wasn't a believer. That said, finding a GM that is as efficient and effective as Shapiro is damn near impossible. One of the best GMs in baseball, again, in my opinion.
Let's not act like because some talking heads on the TV yap about what should or could have been, the minute a trade is completed, that the Indians got hosed. If an organization has a unique way of evaluating players, which points them in a different direction than what Baseball America or the MLB network says, this can be a huge advantage. You're able to land more players that you value higher than the usual generic top 10 rankings of some website.
-
Just one thing since I don't want to re-do my whole deal from yesterday.
We weren't going to re-sign him. We weren't going to win this year certainly. We probably weren't going to win next year. The key to the roster AS IT WAS, with Cliff and Victor, was getting guys like LaPorta and Rondon and Santana up in Cleveland. Obviously we weren't going to re-sign these guys because Cliff will get too much money and Victor is old, banged up, and we have elite prospects at his position(...s. C and 1B). The plan is to make 2011 as good as possible, and the window of contention as long as possible, where we have great young players all coming up at the same time.
Basically, we were going to have to wait to win anyway. We weren't going to have Cliff or Victor past 2010. Might as well get what we could.
I am starting to come around. I do agree with you on Victor, just not about Lee. I think we are just pissed because we were so close in 07 and and this year with the Cavs and smelt blood. Dude Cleveland needs a title, it's like the whole city hasn't f'cked in 35 years and are horny as shit.
I say we go an sign Sal Fasano for fun.
p.s. CIMO you need to change your Avitar to Tony Sipp.
-signed Blue Balls
I am starting to come around. I do agree with you on Victor, just not about Lee. I think we are just pissed because we were so close in 07 and and this year with the Cavs and smelt blood. Dude Cleveland needs a title, it's like the whole city hasn't f'cked in 35 years and are horny as shit.
I say we go an sign Sal Fasano for fun.
p.s. CIMO you need to change your Avitar to Tony Sipp.
-signed Blue Balls
Yep, we got into it yesterday but I see your points, too. For me it's just a matter of....even if we made some dumb moves in past...there's nothing we can do about it now. You see years of getting rid of star players, I see no chance of winning in '09 and a very unlikely chance of winning in '10....and we weren't going to re-sign these guys past then so you have to make sure 2011 and beyond is as good as possible.
I'm actually pretty much the opposite in terms of Lee/Vic.....basically just because I liked Vic a hell of a lot more than Lee. Lee's really only had 2 and half years of all-star performance, and I still can't get over how different '07 could've been with the 2008 Lee. I know he wasn't trying to pitch as bad as he did...but still. Vic's been our man for years, it's a punch to the gut to see him leave and I'm probably going to get teary eyed when I see his press conference.
-
Just one thing since I don't want to re-do my whole deal from yesterday.
We weren't going to re-sign him. We weren't going to win this year certainly. We probably weren't going to win next year. The key to the roster AS IT WAS, with Cliff and Victor, was getting guys like LaPorta and Rondon and Santana up in Cleveland. Obviously we weren't going to re-sign these guys because Cliff will get too much money and Victor is old, banged up, and we have elite prospects at his position(...s. C and 1B). The plan is to make 2011 as good as possible, and the window of contention as long as possible, where we have great young players all coming up at the same time.
Basically, we were going to have to wait to win anyway. We weren't going to have Cliff or Victor past 2010. Might as well get what we could.
I am starting to come around. I do agree with you on Victor, just not about Lee. I think we are just pissed because we were so close in 07 and and this year with the Cavs and smelt blood. Dude Cleveland needs a title, it's like the whole city hasn't f'cked in 35 years and are horny as shit.
I say we go an sign Sal Fasano for fun.
p.s. CIMO you need to change your Avitar to Tony Sipp.
-signed Blue Balls
I say we go an sign Sal Fasano for fun.
That's so awesome, you've won the Internets!
Beanpot
-
I am starting to come around. I do agree with you on Victor, just not about Lee. I think we are just pissed because we were so close in 07 and and this year with the Cavs and smelt blood. Dude Cleveland needs a title, it's like the whole city hasn't f'cked in 35 years and are horny as shit.
I say we go an sign Sal Fasano for fun.
p.s. CIMO you need to change your Avitar to Tony Sipp.
-signed Blue Balls
Yep, we got into it yesterday but I see your points, too. For me it's just a matter of....even if we made some dumb moves in past...there's nothing we can do about it now. You see years of getting rid of star players, I see no chance of winning in '09 and a very unlikely chance of winning in '10....and we weren't going to re-sign these guys past then so you have to make sure 2011 and beyond is as good as possible.
I'm actually pretty much the opposite in terms of Lee/Vic.....basically just because I liked Vic a hell of a lot more than Lee. Lee's really only had 2 and half years of all-star performance, and I still can't get over how different '07 could've been with the 2008 Lee. I know he wasn't trying to pitch as bad as he did...but still. Vic's been our man for years, it's a punch to the gut to see him leave and I'm probably going to get teary eyed when I see his press conference.
-
I am starting to come around. I do agree with you on Victor, just not about Lee. I think we are just pissed because we were so close in 07 and and this year with the Cavs and smelt blood. Dude Cleveland needs a title, it's like the whole city hasn't f'cked in 35 years and are horny as shit.
I say we go an sign Sal Fasano for fun.
p.s. CIMO you need to change your Avitar to Tony Sipp.
-signed Blue Balls
Yep, we got into it yesterday but I see your points, too. For me it's just a matter of....even if we made some dumb moves in past...there's nothing we can do about it now. You see years of getting rid of star players, I see no chance of winning in '09 and a very unlikely chance of winning in '10....and we weren't going to re-sign these guys past then so you have to make sure 2011 and beyond is as good as possible.
I'm actually pretty much the opposite in terms of Lee/Vic.....basically just because I liked Vic a hell of a lot more than Lee. Lee's really only had 2 and half years of all-star performance, and I still can't get over how different '07 could've been with the 2008 Lee. I know he wasn't trying to pitch as bad as he did...but still. Vic's been our man for years, it's a punch to the gut to see him leave and I'm probably going to get teary eyed when I see his press conference.
Yep, we got into it yesterday but I see your points, too. For me it's just a matter of....even if we made some dumb moves in past...there's nothing we can do about it now. You see years of getting rid of star players, I see no chance of winning in '09 and a very unlikely chance of winning in '10....and we weren't going to re-sign these guys past then so you have to make sure 2011 and beyond is as good as possible.
I'm actually pretty much the opposite in terms of Lee/Vic.....basically just because I liked Vic a hell of a lot more than Lee. Lee's really only had 2 and half years of all-star performance, and I still can't get over how different '07 could've been with the 2008 Lee. I know he wasn't trying to pitch as bad as he did...but still. Vic's been our man for years, it's a punch to the gut to see him leave and I'm probably going to get teary eyed when I see his press conference.
You know, it's all good, CIMO, you know your shit, bro, even if you live in Texas you hillbilly, jk. We have a common place for our team here and fights are going to happen. In a Steelers chat room they are taking about meeting each other downtown for a blow. Here, we are passionate, which is why the lowly Browns have sold out for 10 years straight with shit ass teams. I like a lot of players but Lee was a CY Young period. The ONLY reason we did as well at the end of last season as we did was Lee (well not including Garko, who I think had 35 RBI's in 40 games). It's almost like losing a family, but not one family member at a time, it's the whole family in a car wreak.
-
after this season i am turning in my indians fan card, i cant take us selling our team down the river. I knew i didnt like Shapiro the minute he took over. That idiot needs to be fired he has run our team into the ground from the time he took over until now.
-
Here is the new t-shirt they are going to be selling at Tribe games.
-
Bottom line for me is the tribe wasn't going to go anywhere with the make up of that team.
We just picked up 11 top prospects.
In the big picture, this was a good move. If half of these guys come close to their projected value, we will be solid for years to come.
You have to think the big picture.
I like it.
-
Bottom line for me is the tribe wasn't going to go anywhere with the make up of that team.
We just picked up 11 top prospects.
In the big picture, this was a good move. If half of these guys come close to their projected value, we will be solid for years to come.
You have to think the big picture.
I like it.
Bottom line for me is the tribe wasn't going to go anywhere with the make up of that team.
We just picked up 11 top prospects.
In the big picture, this was a good move. If half of these guys come close to their projected value, we will be solid for years to come.
You have to think the big picture.
I like it.
It's sort of the chicken or the egg.
I agree somewhat, but the real big picture is the Dolan's are not spending money no matter how many fans there were in the seat. We backed a Dolan run team for what, 13 years with 2 playoff seasons. Which 3 million+ were in attendance for many years and made them a bunch of money. Small market team my ass (now they are but they didn't use to be). It was a good move trading Victor, but it shouldn't be the question of "we weren't going to sign him anyway, let's start over". They should spend the money we gave them on players, Victor or not. Lee is a prime example. It's his fault he didn't put money away to sign players. I just can't get behind that type of Economics. If the Dolan's sign some real talent, I'll get my ticket pack back. I love the Indians like a family but sorry I have thought about it, I am done. I am NOT giving them my money anymore.
Watch I am going to eat crow here, watch the tribe win 20 in a row.
-
after this season i am turning in my indians fan card, i cant take us selling our team down the river. I knew i didnt like Shapiro the minute he took over. That idiot needs to be fired he has run our team into the ground from the time he took over until now.
after this season i am turning in my indians fan card, i cant take us selling our team down the river. I knew i didnt like Shapiro the minute he took over. That idiot needs to be fired he has run our team into the ground from the time he took over until now.
Victor was a good trade. But like I said, it's not about trading these players, it's the fact they are going to sign ANYONE after trading these players.
Wait sorry they will go out and sign a Jason Michaels or Ronnie Belliard. Never mind.
-
after this season i am turning in my indians fan card, i cant take us selling our team down the river. I knew i didnt like Shapiro the minute he took over. That idiot needs to be fired he has run our team into the ground from the time he took over until now.
Victor was a good trade. But like I said, it's not about trading these players, it's the fact they are going to sign ANYONE after trading these players.
Wait sorry they will go out and sign a Jason Michaels or Ronnie Belliard. Never mind.
Victor was a good trade. But like I said, it's not about trading these players, it's the fact they are going to sign ANYONE after trading these players.
Wait sorry they will go out and sign a Jason Michaels or Ronnie Belliard. Never mind.
The reality is Cleveland is a small mkt team. We just picked up 11 top prospects without giving bonus money. That is the way the Clevelands of the world have to operate. Support for teams isn't just fans in the seats..a big chunk of the revenue flow is TV dollars, and Cleveland just doesn't generate what a NY, LA, or Chicago will...simply a fact.
I don't fear Dolan and think he will spend money when it makes sense....and really, the team we have...or had...it didn't make sense...signing a big name wasn't going to turn that team around.
Now we have a core that hopefully develops...I see it similar to when we traded guys like Joe Carter and started to bring in prospects like Baerga, Alomar, Thome etc...
Baseball is funny...it's easy to get stuck in the mud, and more often than not the best way out is to back out rather than push through.
-
Victor was a good trade. But like I said, it's not about trading these players, it's the fact they are going to sign ANYONE after trading these players.
Wait sorry they will go out and sign a Jason Michaels or Ronnie Belliard. Never mind.
The reality is Cleveland is a small mkt team. We just picked up 11 top prospects without giving bonus money. That is the way the Clevelands of the world have to operate. Support for teams isn't just fans in the seats..a big chunk of the revenue flow is TV dollars, and Cleveland just doesn't generate what a NY, LA, or Chicago will...simply a fact.
I don't fear Dolan and think he will spend money when it makes sense....and really, the team we have...or had...it didn't make sense...signing a big name wasn't going to turn that team around.
Now we have a core that hopefully develops...I see it similar to when we traded guys like Joe Carter and started to bring in prospects like Baerga, Alomar, Thome etc...
Baseball is funny...it's easy to get stuck in the mud, and more often than not the best way out is to back out rather than push through.
Cleveland just doesn't generate what a NY, LA, or Chicago will...simply a fact.
Ball, the Tribe did generate close to what NY and LA in the 90's before Cablevision was sold. Those cities' teams own the cable station they play on. I was close to one in the Dolan's ring and this is the single reason we don't have the money to spend. He sells Cablevision for like 2 billion, puts it in his pocket and doesn't spend it on his other business, the Cleveland Indians.
-
I really enjoy Christina Kahrl and hope she's right when she says:
Baseball Prospectus: Is Cleveland back in the Cory Snyder era?
Let's give Mark Shapiro and his crew some credit. They rebuilt an Indians team on the downswing in relatively short order and made a couple of runs at the American League pennant while also swinging some impressive deals despite coming up short -- especially last year's additions of Matt LaPorta in the CC Sabathia trade and catcher Carlos Santana in a stone steal from the Dodgers. (Santana has a .280 batting average with a .398 on-base percentage and .537 slugging percentage at Double-A.) The team's player development program also is doing better but has been favoring sluggers for the corners such as Nick Weglarz. There's hope the crew of position-playing prospects will add balance in terms of better athleticism up the middle, and that their pitching prospects will help replace Sabathia and Cliff Lee. Lots of mistakes have been made near Lake Erie in recent years, and a teardown of the big league club was necessary after so many serial disappointments. There's no need to party like it's 1989. --Christina Kahrl
Still, her (their) relationship with Woolner should be taken into account here.
I was following a chat with Sickles throughout the deadline and he offers his take on the Martinez trade here:
Victor Martinez from the Indians to the Red Sox for Justin Masterson, Bryan Price, and Nick Hagadone. I do understand this one. The Indians have a great young catcher coming up in Carlos Santana, so trading Martinez makes sense.. Masterson looks like a number three sinkerball starter to me, Price has a live arm and could be good in the pen eventually. Hagadone is a breakthrough candidate once he is further down the road for Tommy John. From Boston's perspective, they add another strong veteran bat, but didn't trade any of their truly elite prospects. Win for both teams.
http://www.minorleagueball.com/2009/8/1/97...dline-reactions
Beanpot
-
Here's Buchholz's statline for today
That's a 6.05 ERA for a guy turning 25 in a couple weeks, who made it to the majors in 2007 and still hasn't become a fixture in Boston. Yet he would've made everything right if we landed him straight up for Victor.
Here's Bill Simmons on him, via twiter
sportsguy33 Watching Sox with @jacoby_ - decided Theo Epstein is DeNiro in Casino + Buchholz is Sharon Stone .
-
Here's Buchholz's statline for today
That's a 6.05 ERA for a guy turning 25 in a couple weeks, who made it to the majors in 2007 and still hasn't become a fixture in Boston. Yet he would've made everything right if we landed him straight up for Victor.
Here's Bill Simmons on him, via twiter
sportsguy33 Watching Sox with @jacoby_ - decided Theo Epstein is DeNiro in Casino + Buchholz is Sharon Stone .
That's a 6.05 ERA for a guy turning 25 in a couple weeks, who made it to the majors in 2007 and still hasn't become a fixture in Boston. Yet he would've made everything right if we landed him straight up for Victor.
But people have heard of Buchholz. The same can't be said for Hagadone. Hence, it was an awful trade and I'm going to stop supporting a team I've only casually supported. In addition to that, I'm going to scream on the internet that I'm really, really pissed. Ownership so sucks and they do everything wrong.
After that, I'm going to go back to the football portion of this site and rationally talk about my love for the Browns and their chances this season. Fingers crossed that all goes well!
Beanpot
-
Here's Buchholz's statline for today
That's a 6.05 ERA for a guy turning 25 in a couple weeks, who made it to the majors in 2007 and still hasn't become a fixture in Boston. Yet he would've made everything right if we landed him straight up for Victor.
Here's Bill Simmons on him, via twiter
sportsguy33 Watching Sox with @jacoby_ - decided Theo Epstein is DeNiro in Casino + Buchholz is Sharon Stone .
Here's Bill Simmons on him, via twiter
Simmons is pretty much the awesome when it comes to Twitter. Along with Schefter - http://twitter.com/Adam_Schefter - and Windhorst - http://twitter.com/PDcavsinsider - Law too - http://twitter.com/keithlaw
Still, my favorite is http://twitter.com/rainnwilson - all sorts of goodness there.
Beanpot
-
Martinez had a career-high tying five hits and four RBIs. Sounds about right.
-
That's a 6.05 ERA for a guy turning 25 in a couple weeks, who made it to the majors in 2007 and still hasn't become a fixture in Boston. Yet he would've made everything right if we landed him straight up for Victor.
But people have heard of Buchholz. The same can't be said for Hagadone. Hence, it was an awful trade and I'm going to stop supporting a team I've only casually supported. In addition to that, I'm going to scream on the internet that I'm really, really pissed. Ownership so sucks and they do everything wrong.
After that, I'm going to go back to the football portion of this site and rationally talk about my love for the Browns and their chances this season. Fingers crossed that all goes well!
Beanpot
But people have heard of Buchholz. The same can't be said for Hagadone. Hence, it was an awful trade and I'm going to stop supporting a team I've only casually supported. In addition to that, I'm going to scream on the internet that I'm really, really pissed. Ownership so sucks and they do everything wrong.
After that, I'm going to go back to the football portion of this site and rationally talk about my love for the Browns and their chances this season. Fingers crossed that all goes well!
Beanpot
LOL, very well put.
The only thing that worries me, since I'm a pretty big Shapiro fan, is the talk that he even offered Victor for Buchholz straight up...and Lastoria is saying he offered Lee for him straight up. I know the rest of the world is much higher on Buchholz than I am, but that Lee trade would probably make me vomit. I just can't see the hype with that guy at almost 25 years old, especially seeing a guy like Clayton Kershaw dominating after just turning 21 before the season...and even more especially when so many other top prospects are getting thrust into the rotation at 20 or 21 years old whereas he's been given plenty of time to slowly develop his game. Even someone like Joba Chamberlain who seems custom made for the bullpen is turning into a reliable starter.
I'm obviously no scout, but it seems like so much is made of his arsenal of pitches, but it doesn't make much of a difference what you throw when you're walking guys and giving up home runs. Maybe I'm wrong. Maybe he's a late bloomer (or as late a bloomer as you can be with a no-hitter at 22) and will be a Cy Young candidate for years to come. He's just a guy I can't get excited about.
Simmons is pretty much the awesome when it comes to Twitter. Along with Schefter - http://twitter.com/Adam_Schefter - and Windhorst - http://twitter.com/PDcavsinsider - Law too - http://twitter.com/keithlaw
Still, my favorite is http://twitter.com/rainnwilson - all sorts of goodness there.
Beanpot
I was slow to come around...but I'm definitely on the twitter wagon these days...I just can't stand to use any of its terminology out loud. I still don't get all the athletes or celebrities with tens of thousands of followers when all they talk about is what kind of sandwich they're eating (check out Matt LaPorta's http://twitter.com/gator4god), but it's great for news. I pretty much just stick to the local guys with a few nationals...Law and Stark for my baseball, Bucher and Stein for basketball, Simmons for everything. Haven't bothered with football yet but I guess I should with camp starting...
-
But people have heard of Buchholz. The same can't be said for Hagadone. Hence, it was an awful trade and I'm going to stop supporting a team I've only casually supported. In addition to that, I'm going to scream on the internet that I'm really, really pissed. Ownership so sucks and they do everything wrong.
After that, I'm going to go back to the football portion of this site and rationally talk about my love for the Browns and their chances this season. Fingers crossed that all goes well!
Beanpot
LOL, very well put.
The only thing that worries me, since I'm a pretty big Shapiro fan, is the talk that he even offered Victor for Buchholz straight up...and Lastoria is saying he offered Lee for him straight up. I know the rest of the world is much higher on Buchholz than I am, but that Lee trade would probably make me vomit. I just can't see the hype with that guy at almost 25 years old, especially seeing a guy like Clayton Kershaw dominating after just turning 21 before the season...and even more especially when so many other top prospects are getting thrust into the rotation at 20 or 21 years old whereas he's been given plenty of time to slowly develop his game. Even someone like Joba Chamberlain who seems custom made for the bullpen is turning into a reliable starter.
I'm obviously no scout, but it seems like so much is made of his arsenal of pitches, but it doesn't make much of a difference what you throw when you're walking guys and giving up home runs. Maybe I'm wrong. Maybe he's a late bloomer (or as late a bloomer as you can be with a no-hitter at 22) and will be a Cy Young candidate for years to come. He's just a guy I can't get excited about.
Simmons is pretty much the awesome when it comes to Twitter. Along with Schefter - http://twitter.com/Adam_Schefter - and Windhorst - http://twitter.com/PDcavsinsider - Law too - http://twitter.com/keithlaw
Still, my favorite is http://twitter.com/rainnwilson - all sorts of goodness there.
Beanpot
I was slow to come around...but I'm definitely on the twitter wagon these days...I just can't stand to use any of its terminology out loud. I still don't get all the athletes or celebrities with tens of thousands of followers when all they talk about is what kind of sandwich they're eating (check out Matt LaPorta's http://twitter.com/gator4god), but it's great for news. I pretty much just stick to the local guys with a few nationals...Law and Stark for my baseball, Bucher and Stein for basketball, Simmons for everything. Haven't bothered with football yet but I guess I should with camp starting...
I was slow to come around...but I'm definitely on the twitter wagon these days..
Sorry bro, Twitter is gay. They boast their millions of users, but what their marketing team fails to disclose is 60%, yes 60%, of all users quit using it after 30 days. There is a reason for that. That number will continue to rise.
Hello! It looks like you're interested in this conversation, but you don't have an account yet.
Getting fed up of having to scroll through the same posts each visit? When you register for an account, you'll always come back to exactly where you were before, and choose to be notified of new replies (either via email, or push notification). You'll also be able to save bookmarks and upvote posts to show your appreciation to other community members.
With your input, this post could be even better 💗
Register Login