2023 Browns NFL Draft Prospects
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2022 season/ DL vs The Run Stat Study
https://steelersdepot.com/2023/02/2023-nfl-draft-prospects-dl-run-defense-stat-study/
2022 season/ DL vs The Run Stat Study
https://steelersdepot.com/2023/02/2023-nfl-draft-prospects-dl-run-defense-stat-study/
My issue with raw data like this is the same beef I've had with sites like PFF since Corey Coleman - I need context on assignment vs offensive design. Without it, numbers can be incredibly misleading.
Example, if Im playing closed end and spilling, my raw tackle numbers or TFL might look REAL bad compared to another edge not playing the same role.
Or if I'm getting someone like Benton who is averaging a better negative tackle depth, I want and need to know the why? Is he doing that from a shade or is he 2 gapping? 2 gapping would lead me to believe he's being a disruptive force well above most college NTs. If he's playing a shade and putting up average numbers, then I also go into relative competition, game script, scores, etc etc.
These are nice attempts, first layer metrics at trying to get a handle on production. But at the end of the day it's still a narrow snapshot of a MUCH larger picture.
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I wouldn't mind that unfolding for the Browns at all. Seems pretty easy on the scouting dept too if you get 2 guys from Ohio State, 1 from Cincy and 1 from The School Up North. We'll need to a Safety to take John Johnson's spot too; and this one seems to be a pretty solid tackler (unless I just jinxed him).
We assume Johnson is leaving, but i am not so sure.
I think a lot of his problems were related to Woods. I don't understand how a guy can go from one of the better safeties in the league to a guy who was pretty bad once he came to Cleveland. I didn't see the dreaded lead shoe syndrome. You remember how Hanford Dixson looked to be Hanford, and then in a week he looked like Paul Zukaskis could beat him in a race.
For those who don't remember Zuk, he may have been the biggest clod to ever play for the Browns. He was ok until he had to move his feet more than a few feet.
We assume Johnson is leaving, but i am not so sure.
I think a lot of his problems were related to Woods. I don't understand how a guy can go from one of the better safeties in the league to a guy who was pretty bad once he came to Cleveland.
Aaron Donald, Greg Gaines, SJD, Troy Hill, Jalen Ramsey, Jordan Fuller and Leonard Floyd. Coming from a loaded defense that had him play more limited assignments while Jordan Fuller took over as your MFS.
Johnny J is still a pretty good DB and I'd hate to see him go. But business is business, and at the moment he costs a bit too much.
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I wouldn't mind that unfolding for the Browns at all. Seems pretty easy on the scouting dept too if you get 2 guys from Ohio State, 1 from Cincy and 1 from The School Up North. We'll need to a Safety to take John Johnson's spot too; and this one seems to be a pretty solid tackler (unless I just jinxed him).
We assume Johnson is leaving, but i am not so sure.
I think a lot of his problems were related to Woods. I don't understand how a guy can go from one of the better safeties in the league to a guy who was pretty bad once he came to Cleveland. I didn't see the dreaded lead shoe syndrome. You remember how Hanford Dixson looked to be Hanford, and then in a week he looked like Paul Zukaskis could beat him in a race.
For those who don't remember Zuk, he may have been the biggest clod to ever play for the Browns. He was ok until he had to move his feet more than a few feet.
We assume Johnson is leaving, but i am not so sure.
I think a lot of his problems were related to Woods. I don't understand how a guy can go from one of the better safeties in the league to a guy who was pretty bad once he came to Cleveland. I didn't see the dreaded lead shoe syndrome. You remember how Hanford Dixson looked to be Hanford, and then in a week he looked like Paul Zukaskis could beat him in a race.
For those who don't remember Zuk, he may have been the biggest clod to ever play for the Browns. He was ok until he had to move his feet more than a few feet.
This is only my opinion so it doesn't mean I'm right and you're wrong. I don't think there was a person in the fanbase that wasn't excited about him coming here. Unfortunately, that wasn't the same guy that came here. I think the FO should get just as much credit as you're giving Woods considering how much their chosen ones on the IDL didn't make life easy on the back tiers of the defense.@tiamat63 gives a good explanation of it all in the previous post.
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We assume Johnson is leaving, but i am not so sure.
I think a lot of his problems were related to Woods. I don't understand how a guy can go from one of the better safeties in the league to a guy who was pretty bad once he came to Cleveland. I didn't see the dreaded lead shoe syndrome. You remember how Hanford Dixson looked to be Hanford, and then in a week he looked like Paul Zukaskis could beat him in a race.
For those who don't remember Zuk, he may have been the biggest clod to ever play for the Browns. He was ok until he had to move his feet more than a few feet.
This is only my opinion so it doesn't mean I'm right and you're wrong. I don't think there was a person in the fanbase that wasn't excited about him coming here. Unfortunately, that wasn't the same guy that came here. I think the FO should get just as much credit as you're giving Woods considering how much their chosen ones on the IDL didn't make life easy on the back tiers of the defense.@tiamat63 gives a good explanation of it all in the previous post.
This is only my opinion so it doesn't mean I'm right and you're wrong. I don't think there was a person in the fanbase that wasn't excited about him coming here. Unfortunately, that wasn't the same guy that came here. I think the FO should get just as much credit as you're giving Woods considering how much their chosen ones on the IDL didn't make life easy on the back tiers of the defense.@tiamat63 gives a good explanation of it all in the previous post.
I understand, and that may be true. I just don't see any real physical evidence that would explain the drop in play.
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NFL Combine Snubs https://withthefirstpick.com/2023/02/09/10-biggest-nfl-combine-snubs-2023/ ?
Browns & Buffett: Got to go fishin, Down to rock bottom again, with just a few Friends -
Watching Ojomo from Texas and Keondre Coburn is starting to look VERY promising as well.
Edit:. Watching the Horns almost reminds me of a couple of their dlines from back in the day with Rod Wright, Frank Okam, Tim Crowder and Roy Miller. They've got some big boys up front.
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Defensive Tackles.. My Pre-Combine hype rankings
1. Jalen Carter, Georgia2 . Mazi Smith, Michigan3. Calijah Kancey, Pitt4. Bryan Bresee, Clemson (medical slide)5. Siaki Ika, Baylor6. Keeanu Benton, Wisconsin7. Byron Young, Alabama8 Zacch Pickens South Carolina9 Gervon Dexter Fla.10. Toss Up! Still look'inBrowns & Buffett: Got to go fishin, Down to rock bottom again, with just a few Friends -
NFL Combine Snubs https://withthefirstpick.com/2023/02/09/10-biggest-nfl-combine-snubs-2023/ ?
NFL Combine Snubs https://withthefirstpick.com/2023/02/09/10-biggest-nfl-combine-snubs-2023/ ?
Thanks for sharing that Gumbs! Looks like quite a few promising young men in that group. That Mafi kid sounds like he'd be an ideal fit for the Bills Mafia.
You know who the biggest draft snub of all time was? It was actually a guy that got invited. Poor Orlando Brown at least allegedly. I had Hoorta all over me because I dared to say just because he can't bench press more than girl scouts or move as fast as parked cars he'll continue to be a damn good football player. Today he's been to a bunch of Pro Bowls at Right and Left Tackle. Even worse, when I watched Jedrick Wills doing a lot of the drills at the combines - he looked like he had the feet, hips and agility to give us what we needed if interested. What assessments measured inner chest and football comprehension though? In his 3rd NFL season, Wills looked like a lost rookie (after what seemed to be a promising rookie season 2 years ago).
Having said all that, I still enjoy watching Indy's Underwear Olympics in early March every year. Make sense? It shouldn't. The only assessment I'd change is that guys shouldn't be allowed to run the 40 out of a sprinters stance they won't ever line up in. This is supposed to evaluate how quick somebody can be on the football field. They SHOULD do a stances and start assessment that goes about 10 or 15 yards. By the end of the day, you'll still know who the quick guys are. Today, the length of the average play doesn't even last as long as the average combine 40 times. That said, Anthony Schwartz can run REALLY fast straight ahead especially when there isn't a defense in front of him.
Good news for some of the snubs is they recently held the HBCU Combines. I hope Andrew Berry sent more than the Broom Closet Coordinator to watch them. Did anyone hear Andy Reid's comment as to why they drafted Mizzou's Nick Bolton a couple years ago? Because we wanted a great tackler and the film didn't lie. Wait a minute! First, you didn't cate if he preferred kittens or puppies Andy? Second, you wanted somebody that was great at tackling for your defense? Third, you used film instead of spread sheets? No wonder why they chased you out of Philly! What have you done lately? Oh yeah, you BEAT Philly in the Super Bowl. Coincidentally, Nick Bolton was around the football long enough to scoop the loose ball and score a TD. You don't say...
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I am sure we have the info on them.
Between our own scouts, and the independent scouting services which we buy info from, we have it covered.
If everybody had like minds, we would never learn. -
Defensive Tackles.. My Pre-Combine hype rankings
1. Jalen Carter, Georgia2 . Mazi Smith, Michigan3. Calijah Kancey, Pitt4. Bryan Bresee, Clemson (medical slide)5. Siaki Ika, Baylor6. Keeanu Benton, Wisconsin7. Byron Young, Alabama8 Zacch Pickens South Carolina9 Gervon Dexter Fla.10. Toss Up! Still look'inDefensive Tackles.. My Pre-Combine hype rankings
1. Jalen Carter, Georgia2 . Mazi Smith, Michigan3. Calijah Kancey, Pitt4. Bryan Bresee, Clemson (medical slide)5. Siaki Ika, Baylor6. Keeanu Benton, Wisconsin7. Byron Young, Alabama8 Zacch Pickens South Carolina9 Gervon Dexter Fla.10. Toss Up! Still look'inEvery time I watched Georgia play, Jalen Carter didn't jump off the screen at me nearly as much as Jordan Davis did last year. I haven't looked up his stats or anything but I'll bet Vanderbilt volunteered plenty of tackles for losses and sacks. I know Richard Seymour went to the same football program and had a similar frame; but this guy isn't on that level at all even thought he'll get drafted higher. The most impressive thing about Seymore was the ideal pad height he consistently was able to out-leverage and over-power offensive linemen with in spite of the height. Carter didn't show me that. I will confess I don't waste tine watching many of Georgia's mismatches. I DID Georgia play the day they were praying Ohio State would miss a potential game winning FG.
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I am sure we have the info on them.
Between our own scouts, and the independent scouting services which we buy info from, we have it covered.
I am sure we have the info on them.
Between our own scouts, and the independent scouting services which we buy info from, we have it covered.
It's been great seeing you back in the mix this frequently again because you post a lot of good stuff and challenge a lot of comments that lead to good discussions Peens. That said, we have what covered? The Browns are a 7-10 football team that didn't have very many productive starters drafted by Andrew Berry on the offensive or defensive lines. Who is the most criticized starter on the offensive line? The 10th overall pick from 2020 who has one of the best Offensive Line coaches in the league today. If he doesn't pan out - are we going to fire another Coach for how badly this FO is drafting?
Getting the information for the draft and using the information are 2 different things. Berry was an All Conference Cornerback at Harvard, which is a good thing. Looking at what he's done best with in the draft is the Cornerback position the last 2 drafts. There's his comfort zone IMO. He needs to step it up everywhere else; and I'm hoping he does. We've had a lot of really passionate fans that passed away in recent years waiting for this FO to get their shit together.
In a world that says you are what your record says you are, the Browns are in last place because the draft has said so.
I welcome the only Defensive Coordinator to earn a Superbowl Ring in New Orleans while understanding Revenge of the Nerds is a sequel. "Come get some!" -
Having good scouting doesn't mean you will get good players.
In the end I think all the teams work pretty much with the same intel. How they pick is a different matter. My comment was directed more towards scouting and being aware of various players as was mentioned when talking about the combine snubbed players.
I don't think Berry has done all that badly in selecting players. I am of the opinion that if you get 1-2 good players a draft you are doing a decent job.
I do think we are stronger at evaluating some positions over others, but if we really looked at other teams and their selected players, I don't think the Browns lag all that far behind.
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Having good scouting doesn't mean you will get good players.
In the end I think all the teams work pretty much with the same intel. How they pick is a different matter. My comment was directed more towards scouting and being aware of various players as was mentioned when talking about the combine snubbed players.
I don't think Berry has done all that badly in selecting players. I am of the opinion that if you get 1-2 good players a draft you are doing a decent job.
I do think we are stronger at evaluating some positions over others, but if we really looked at other teams and their selected players, I don't think the Browns lag all that far behind.
Having good scouting doesn't mean you will get good players.
In the end I think all the teams work pretty much with the same intel. How they pick is a different matter. My comment was directed more towards scouting and being aware of various players as was mentioned when talking about the combine snubbed players.
I don't think Berry has done all that badly in selecting players. I am of the opinion that if you get 1-2 good players a draft you are doing a decent job.
I do think we are stronger at evaluating some positions over others, but if we really looked at other teams and their selected players, I don't think the Browns lag all that far behind.
Fair enough. I'm just getting impatient; and this is an important draft in the sense we don't have a lot of cap room to keep up the mentality we can just keep solving things with FAs that have proven themselves on other NFL rosters first. Drafting better than we have, would set up a healthier cap in the future and get us to the playoffs far more frequently than we have done so IMO.
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I agree. It is very important for all you mention. That is why I mentioned somewhere that I wouldn't mind if we made some "safe' picks, so to speak. Center would be one of those picks. I don't think it is that hard to identify and select a serviceable center in the mid rounds. Harris, if you are sold on that guy is entering the final year of his deal. It will cost to extend him, and we aren't signing Pocic for cap reasons, so we need to draft a guy to take over, if not immediately, the following year.
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When all is said and done it reverts back to BPA year over after year. What has been accomplished with glamour picks and need picks the last 10 years? Only one I recall also just happened to be BPA and that was Garrett. Any others anyone recalls?
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I am sure we have the info on them.
Between our own scouts, and the independent scouting services which we buy info from, we have it covered.
It's been great seeing you back in the mix this frequently again because you post a lot of good stuff and challenge a lot of comments that lead to good discussions Peens. That said, we have what covered? The Browns are a 7-10 football team that didn't have very many productive starters drafted by Andrew Berry on the offensive or defensive lines. Who is the most criticized starter on the offensive line? The 10th overall pick from 2020 who has one of the best Offensive Line coaches in the league today. If he doesn't pan out - are we going to fire another Coach for how badly this FO is drafting?
Getting the information for the draft and using the information are 2 different things. Berry was an All Conference Cornerback at Harvard, which is a good thing. Looking at what he's done best with in the draft is the Cornerback position the last 2 drafts. There's his comfort zone IMO. He needs to step it up everywhere else; and I'm hoping he does. We've had a lot of really passionate fans that passed away in recent years waiting for this FO to get their shit together.
In a world that says you are what your record says you are, the Browns are in last place because the draft has said so.
It's been great seeing you back in the mix this frequently again because you post a lot of good stuff and challenge a lot of comments that lead to good discussions Peens. That said, we have what covered? The Browns are a 7-10 football team that didn't have very many productive starters drafted by Andrew Berry on the offensive or defensive lines. Who is the most criticized starter on the offensive line? The 10th overall pick from 2020 who has one of the best Offensive Line coaches in the league today. If he doesn't pan out - are we going to fire another Coach for how badly this FO is drafting?
Getting the information for the draft and using the information are 2 different things. Berry was an All Conference Cornerback at Harvard, which is a good thing. Looking at what he's done best with in the draft is the Cornerback position the last 2 drafts. There's his comfort zone IMO. He needs to step it up everywhere else; and I'm hoping he does. We've had a lot of really passionate fans that passed away in recent years waiting for this FO to get their shit together.
In a world that says you are what your record says you are, the Browns are in last place because the draft has said so.
...... " Getting the information for the draft and using the information are 2 different things. Berry was an All Conference Cornerback at Harvard, which is a good thing. Looking at what he's done best with in the draft is the Cornerback position the last 2 drafts. There's his comfort zone IMO. He needs to step it up everywhere else; and I'm hoping he does. We've had a lot of really passionate fans that passed away in recent years waiting for this FO to get their shit together.
In a world that says you are what your record says you are, the Browns are in last place because the draft has said so." ......
Interesting point of view in a "Bill Parcells way" same with the Harvard comment can he carry that through more in his results.
GO BUCKEYES, BROWNS, INDIANS, CAVS, YSU, NAVY and yes I like ND! -
No doubt using the information is key.
I also think you sometimes just get lucky with players, and there is no accounting for that. Was our information so good we selected DPJ, or did we just get lucky in selecting him? Obviously a little of both.
I think we try to manufacture players. An example would be along the D line. The model we use is Aaron Donald. We can look for all of Donalds traits, but in the end you aren't going to get Aaron Donald, you end up with Tommy Togiai. I just used him as an example. I don't know how close any of their traits might be, my point is it is impossible to measure heart and desire.
Always has been, always will be. Add in that being a task master coach doesn't work with modern players and it makes it all the much harder.
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When all is said and done it reverts back to BPA year over after year. What has been accomplished with glamour picks and need picks the last 10 years? Only one I recall also just happened to be BPA and that was Garrett. Any others anyone recalls?
When all is said and done it reverts back to BPA year over after year. What has been accomplished with glamour picks and need picks the last 10 years? Only one I recall also just happened to be BPA and that was Garrett. Any others anyone recalls?
I am not going to try to name names and do research, but I agree.
In the end you almost always need to go with the best player you can find. Obviously you aren't going to keep drafting 1st round QB's if you have a good QB, but needs extend past more than the next season.
You can project needs 3-4 years ahead, so you need to take the best players you can.
That said, in any draft with nearly any pick you end up with a group of players who are similar in ability, so at that point you can direct your attention a bit more towards immediate needs.
As an example, we probably don't need a RB this draft, but who knows about next year? That is why if a good back is available in the right sport, we need to take him.
Sometimes the picks don't make any sense to us fans, but we tend to think in the here and now and aren't thinking 2-3 years down the road. Good GM's are thinking 2-3, maybe even more years down the road.
When the window is open you try to take advantage, but when it starts to close, you want it to close some, not just slam shut.
FA is for fixing immediate needs. The draft is for the long term health of the team.
I don't know if any of you play chess. It has been a long time hobby of mine. Good players are thinking 5-6 moves ahead. If you find yourself in the position of making the immediate fix to block some attack on your queen or king, and you are stuck in that position time after time, you might as well turn over your king, you are going to lose a slow painful death. It was all planned 10 moves in the past.
If everybody had like minds, we would never learn. -
When all is said and done it reverts back to BPA year over after year. What has been accomplished with glamour picks and need picks the last 10 years? Only one I recall also just happened to be BPA and that was Garrett. Any others anyone recalls?
I am not going to try to name names and do research, but I agree.
In the end you almost always need to go with the best player you can find. Obviously you aren't going to keep drafting 1st round QB's if you have a good QB, but needs extend past more than the next season.
You can project needs 3-4 years ahead, so you need to take the best players you can.
That said, in any draft with nearly any pick you end up with a group of players who are similar in ability, so at that point you can direct your attention a bit more towards immediate needs.
As an example, we probably don't need a RB this draft, but who knows about next year? That is why if a good back is available in the right sport, we need to take him.
Sometimes the picks don't make any sense to us fans, but we tend to think in the here and now and aren't thinking 2-3 years down the road. Good GM's are thinking 2-3, maybe even more years down the road.
When the window is open you try to take advantage, but when it starts to close, you want it to close some, not just slam shut.
FA is for fixing immediate needs. The draft is for the long term health of the team.
I don't know if any of you play chess. It has been a long time hobby of mine. Good players are thinking 5-6 moves ahead. If you find yourself in the position of making the immediate fix to block some attack on your queen or king, and you are stuck in that position time after time, you might as well turn over your king, you are going to lose a slow painful death. It was all planned 10 moves in the past.
I am not going to try to name names and do research, but I agree.
In the end you almost always need to go with the best player you can find. Obviously you aren't going to keep drafting 1st round QB's if you have a good QB, but needs extend past more than the next season.
You can project needs 3-4 years ahead, so you need to take the best players you can.
That said, in any draft with nearly any pick you end up with a group of players who are similar in ability, so at that point you can direct your attention a bit more towards immediate needs.
As an example, we probably don't need a RB this draft, but who knows about next year? That is why if a good back is available in the right sport, we need to take him.
Sometimes the picks don't make any sense to us fans, but we tend to think in the here and now and aren't thinking 2-3 years down the road. Good GM's are thinking 2-3, maybe even more years down the road.
When the window is open you try to take advantage, but when it starts to close, you want it to close some, not just slam shut.
FA is for fixing immediate needs. The draft is for the long term health of the team.
I don't know if any of you play chess. It has been a long time hobby of mine. Good players are thinking 5-6 moves ahead. If you find yourself in the position of making the immediate fix to block some attack on your queen or king, and you are stuck in that position time after time, you might as well turn over your king, you are going to lose a slow painful death. It was all planned 10 moves in the past.
Browns play checkers settling for the occasional hit or miss King while the chess players sacrifice a queen to build up massive pawn structure properly to develop a real team. I still wonder about whether giving up all those draft choices is really going to just keep the Browns/Clowns or a decent team. Hence one of my favorite Bobby Fisher games. ?
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It's been great seeing you back in the mix this frequently again because you post a lot of good stuff and challenge a lot of comments that lead to good discussions Peens. That said, we have what covered? The Browns are a 7-10 football team that didn't have very many productive starters drafted by Andrew Berry on the offensive or defensive lines. Who is the most criticized starter on the offensive line? The 10th overall pick from 2020 who has one of the best Offensive Line coaches in the league today. If he doesn't pan out - are we going to fire another Coach for how badly this FO is drafting?
Getting the information for the draft and using the information are 2 different things. Berry was an All Conference Cornerback at Harvard, which is a good thing. Looking at what he's done best with in the draft is the Cornerback position the last 2 drafts. There's his comfort zone IMO. He needs to step it up everywhere else; and I'm hoping he does. We've had a lot of really passionate fans that passed away in recent years waiting for this FO to get their shit together.
In a world that says you are what your record says you are, the Browns are in last place because the draft has said so.
...... " Getting the information for the draft and using the information are 2 different things. Berry was an All Conference Cornerback at Harvard, which is a good thing. Looking at what he's done best with in the draft is the Cornerback position the last 2 drafts. There's his comfort zone IMO. He needs to step it up everywhere else; and I'm hoping he does. We've had a lot of really passionate fans that passed away in recent years waiting for this FO to get their shit together.
In a world that says you are what your record says you are, the Browns are in last place because the draft has said so." ......
Interesting point of view in a "Bill Parcells way" same with the Harvard comment can he carry that through more in his results.
...... " Getting the information for the draft and using the information are 2 different things. Berry was an All Conference Cornerback at Harvard, which is a good thing. Looking at what he's done best with in the draft is the Cornerback position the last 2 drafts. There's his comfort zone IMO. He needs to step it up everywhere else; and I'm hoping he does. We've had a lot of really passionate fans that passed away in recent years waiting for this FO to get their shit together.
In a world that says you are what your record says you are, the Browns are in last place because the draft has said so." ......
Interesting point of view in a "Bill Parcells way" same with the Harvard comment can he carry that through more in his results.
Dom gummit, you even spelled Parcells right. I look like Dumb Ass using his name and spelling it wrong.
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