2023 Browns NFL Draft Prospects

[Flugel]

Here's Lindy's Draft Guide's 11th ranked WR Andrei Josivas at 6'3" 201 lbs projected for round 3 - they list his 40 time as 4.39. (They have Parker Washington from the previous post ranked 12th).  Who knows how accurate the Guide is at this point? But it provides some draft research with strengths and weaknesses for each.  It goes over all the position groups and gives each group a grade for 2023.  The WRs were given a B-.

[Flugel]

Lindy's 10th ranked WR Xavier Hutchinson, Iowa State WR 6'2" 207 lbs. 4.44 40 time. 2nd-3rd round projection.

[Flugel]

Lindy's #7 - #9 ranked WRs

#7 Josh Downs, North Carolina, 5'10" 171 lbs. 4.46 40 time. 2nd round projection.

# 8 Marvin Mims, Oklahoma WR, 5'11" 182 lbs, 4.37 40 time, 2nd round projection.

#9 Rakim Jarrett, Maryland WR, 6'0" 190 lbs, 4.37 40 time, 2nd round projection.

[Flugel]

Lindy's #6 ranked WR - Rashee Rice, SMU WR, 6'1" 200 lbs, 4.48 40 time, 2nd round projection

[gumby73]

@flugel said:

Here's some highlights for the guy (Parker Washington) that caught Dutch's eye against Ohio State. This guy definitely has some goodies for our passing game.  Looks like he's a good punt returner as well... 

Agreed! The Factory of Cornerbacks of Columbus.Ohio had a rough day vs Parker Washington that day..

The Factory faces a youth overhaul into 2023 in the secondary... Recruited a nice class of now sophomores.. Hope to see them back to Buckeye balling soon 

[gumby73]

• Cleveland Browns

  Round 2, Pick 42

  LB

  Jack Campbell *

  Trenton Simpson *

   Drew Sanders 

  Dalyan Henley

  DL 

  Mazi Smith *

  Keeanu Benton 

  Calijah Kancey *

  Bryan Bresee

  Siaki Ika

  Tuli Tuipulotu

  member edit-Zach Pickens

  member edit-Gervon Dexter

   

  EDGE 

  Keion White

  Will McDonald IV 

  Felix Anudike-Uzomah

  Adetomiwa Adebawore  

  B.J. Ojulari 

  Isaiah Foskey

  Zach Harrison 

   

  S 

  Antonio Johnson

  Sydney Brown

  Chris Smith II

  Jordan Battle

  OT

  Anton Harrison

  Dawand Jones *

  Darnell Wright *

  TE

  Darnell Washington 

  Luke Musgrave

   

  WR 

  Josh Downs 

  Zay Flowers *

  Jalin Hyatt

  Marvin Mims *

   

  Pool of 30 that may get to #42.. but may not get to pick #98

   

    like 10 & 7 are real iffy they get to #43  *

   

   

  Whom you want to add? or Delete ?

[Dutch Oven]

At this moment, I'm very much on the Jack Campbell or Mazi Smith bandwagons for the 2nd round pick. 

A WR or DE would be super and/or duper there too. 

I'm sure best player available and need can converge for the Browns there. They could use help all over the roster. 

[calfoxwc]

@flugel said:

They should have an easier time, however, finding a speedy receiver at this point of the draft who can immediately be inserted into the lineup and help them stretch opposing defenses.

ok, I have a question. With all the talk about wide receiver desperation to help you know who, I see mock drafts saying draft a wide receiver desperately to stretch the field, etc etc, like the Bengals did for Joe Burrow, etc etc etc, ....

    a lot of folks said Baker - was the problem. His wr's were fine, he just sucked. Now, even after adding a fine wr like Cooper, the big glaring need is for a star wr?

  but Baker, who took the Browns to the playoffs with a so so cast of wr's..... didn't need it? but we desperately have to upgrade at wr NOW?

  What happened with all the hostile hate towards upgrading with a field stretching star wr .....by some folks?

But mock drafts are right. It's just too late. I'm not getting the refusal to admit that wr WAS a huge problem that was helping make the offense not function.

[Dutch Oven]

@calfoxwc said:

ok, I have a question. With all the talk about wide receiver desperation to help you know who, I see mock drafts saying draft a wide receiver desperately to stretch the field, etc etc, like the Bengals did for Joe Burrow, etc etc etc, ....

    a lot of folks said Baker - was the problem. His wr's were fine, he just sucked. Now, even after adding a fine wr like Cooper, the big glaring need is for a star wr?

  but Baker, who took the Browns to the playoffs with a so so cast of wr's..... didn't need it? but we desperately have to upgrade at wr NOW?

  What happened with all the hostile hate towards upgrading with a field stretching star wr .....by some folks?

But mock drafts are right. It's just too late. I'm not getting the refusal to admit that wr WAS a huge problem that was helping make the offense not function.

I have no idea why people accuse you of being obsessed with Baker Mayfield. 

So completely unwarranted.

[calfoxwc]

the same can be said for Jacoby Brissett. I liked his play, too - but he didn't have the wr that people are talking about now,  either. Announcers were talking about it during games.

Sure, once in a while one was open, UNEXPECTEDLY. I said it a lot - the Browns needed a legit deep threat that opened things up for other wr's and the TE. I said look at the difference between the Bengals before and after Jamarr Chase.  Same qb, albeit a more experienced one. I would have been delighted to go with Brissett - and add that "Jamarr Chase" to the wr group - and see if he could light it up and get to the playoffs again.

[Unsympathetic]

Baker's biggest problem is that when he knows what's going on, he sucks.  He's on TB now, so don't pick Mike Evans before round 4 in next season's FF drafts.

I'll be very happy if Mazi Smith fell in the draft. But he'll likely get picked late in the first.. unless someone watches no tape of Brian Bresee and somehow picks BB instead in round1.

Keion White is an intriguing 280# DE who won't go much further than our spot in round 2 - but I'm tired of drafting Toolsy Prospects Who Can Cover RB's On Wheel Routes.

Zach Pickens is someone I'd think about if we trade back from our spot in round 2 into something later round 2 / first few in round 3.

RAS.football@MathBomb

Zacch Pickens is a DT prospect in the 2023 draft class. He scored a 9.16 RAS out of a possible 10.00. This ranked 125 out of 1478 DT from 1987 to 2023. ras.football/ras-informatio… #RAS

Mar 15, 2023 44 0View on X

[TexasAg1969]

@unsympathetic said:

Baker's biggest problem is that when he knows what's going on, he sucks.  He's on TB now, so don't pick Mike Evans before round 4 in next season's FF drafts.

Zach Pickens is someone I'd think about if we trade back from our spot in round 2 into something later round 2 / first few in round 3.

I'd be more interested in Gervon Dexter DT Florida who is coming out early. https://floridagators.com/sports/football/roster/gervon-dexter/15186  Drafttek has him around spot 59 overall.

[gumby73]

added both in above DT list..thanks, missed both

member edit-Zach Pickens

member edit-Gervon Dexter

[tiamat63]

Morning, boys.  Feels good to be back to a place with wifi. 

Just going to get ahead of you both there, initial assessment on Pickens and Dex isn't good, if my word means anything.  Dex especially.  His first step is a real problem.  Good arm extension and leg drive, tends to forget his pad level quite a bit.  But I have real concerns about him facing NFL IOL who are going to fire off the ball fast and low. 

 Pickens is still sort of 'meh' for me. Watched him against Arkansas.   Came across a couple nice splash plays, one in particular where the center tried to fold him, he beat the center back over the top and all but shut down a short yardage situation.  That was nice, but there were other times he was too easily moved in the hole or didn't flow laterally + vertically with the inside zone.   For anyone who follows my stuff, the latter is something that tommy Togiai is probably the worst in the NFL at.  Which is why he's effective for us against heavy gap power teams like Baltimore, but so trash against heavy zone teams like ATL.   

 Although Pickens doesn't have the physical limitations such as height and wingspan that hold double T back.  So there's a good bit more raw material there to work with.  I just felt like he disappeared for long stretches for a kid being looked at as a top 100 pick. On the bright side, no rookie is going to come in and be first on the field barring absolute disaster in training camp. 

Edit: been scratching my head wondering who Gervon reminds me of, finally hit me - Javon Kinlaw. Only, not really the good parts. 

[tiamat63]

Early assessment on two linebackers.

Daiyan Henley - I like this kid. Gave all of Wazzou vs Oregon a watch.   Really triggers downhill and fly's.  Also does a good job using his first step quickness to setup free blockers headed to the 2nd level and make them miss while he's on his way to the ball carrier.   Excited to watch more.  

 Jack Campbell - I'm.... I'm not so sure.  I have questions on how Iowa structures their fronts AND their coverages.  Reminds me of back in the day with Norm Parker.   I mean that as both a compliment and a 'WTF?'.    Their tape against *ichigan and how they play their conflict linebackers in their 2 high shells reminds me of the mid 2000's.  I was just a kid, but I really began to understand and see the horizontal to vertical stress offenses would put on those teams and their cover 2 designs.   The Iowa coaches likely did this because their DB's were sort of .... 'meh' this past season.    So there are times it's difficult for me to get a read on JC. 

 I like some of the fluidity of his lateral movement, not many wasted steps.   But I question process/pursuit at the same time.    When he is the conflict linebacker, he can be a bit late back into any action on the interior running game for fear of leaving his horizontal assignment too early.  Questionable effectiveness on blitz assignments.  But the Hawks would tend to telegraph their 5 man pressures depending on the front they ran.    When *ichigan ran classic speed option his side with him as a read, he completely shut it down with disciplined eyes, body positioning, good angle of attack and wingspan to track down the RB.   So that was nice to see.    His height and build are going to get him some Urlacher comparisons, I'm absolutely sure of it.      I don't know, I wouldn't hate the pick.  But at this very moment I sure wouldn't love it either.   More on him as well at a later date.

[Dutch Oven]

@tiamat63 said:

 Jack Campbell - I'm.... I'm not so sure.  I have questions on how Iowa structures their fronts AND their coverages.  Reminds me of back in the day with Norm Parker.   I mean that as both a compliment and a 'WTF?'.    Their tape against *ichigan and how they play their conflict linebackers in their 2 high shells reminds me of the mid 2000's.  I was just a kid, but I really began to understand and see the horizontal to vertical stress offenses would put on those teams and their cover 2 designs.   The Iowa coaches likely did this because their DB's were sort of .... 'meh' this past season.    So there are times it's difficult for me to get a read on JC. 

 I like some of the fluidity of his lateral movement, not many wasted steps.   But I question process/pursuit at the same time.    When he is the conflict linebacker, he can be a bit late back into any action on the interior running game for fear of leaving his horizontal assignment too early.  Questionable effectiveness on blitz assignments.  But the Hawks would tend to telegraph their 5 man pressures depending on the front they ran.    When *ichigan ran classic speed option his side with him as a read, he completely shut it down with disciplined eyes, body positioning, good angle of attack and wingspan to track down the RB.   So that was nice to see.    His height and build are going to get him some Urlacher comparisons, I'm absolutely sure of it.      I don't know, I wouldn't hate the pick.  But at this very moment I sure wouldn't love it either.   More on him as well at a later date.

Well this is an interesting turn of events...

I re-read this thread today, and you were the first to bring Campbell up. 

[tiamat63]

@dutch-oven said:

Well this is an interesting turn of events...

I re-read this thread today, and you were the first to bring Campbell up. 

 I was.  There were things I saw a full speed, especially against the Buckeyes, that I liked.   Going back over and combing for details, going through the layers of the Iowa defense to understand the 'how' and 'why'...      I feel like he's one of those players I'm going to have to watch damn near every snap from not only this season, but then go back to 2021 to try and see/project the growth from the previous year before I become more settled on my finality of him.   As of right now, it's very up and down, very tepid.  

edit: And with the history of how this front office drafts in relation to RAS and Athletic score, I can see Campbell being near the very top of their board.    It's a good and bad thing.

[Dutch Oven]

@tiamat63

If Campbell and DT Mazi Smith are both available at #42, who would you take of the two?

[tiamat63]

@dutch-oven said:

@tiamat63

If Campbell and DT Mazi Smith are both available at #42, who would you take of the two?

I'm looking at this two ways. 

1st - with the information and (limited) film viewing I have now.  Been on vacation the last week, and then very busy the previous couple.  So I haven't had the time to put in the work I would like to.  

2nd - with the idea that I'm looking to pair a potential IDL and LB combo in the 2nd & 3rd.

(Then dip back into skill players with my 4th rounders, possible bundling one of them to move back up late day 2. But that's a conversation for another time)

With that said, if you gave me the option of taking...

Campbell at #42 and IDL at 3rd round (let's say Benton possibly?)

- OR- 

Mazi at #42 and Daiyan Henley 3rd round (LB) 

Then I'm going the Mazi and DH combo over Campbell at #42 and a TBD IDL 3rd round.

Edit: For now, that's my answer.   Always subject to change depending on what else film helps me dig up.  

[tiamat63]

@calfoxwc said:

ok, I have a question. With all the talk about wide receiver desperation to help you know who, I see mock drafts saying draft a wide receiver desperately to stretch the field, etc etc, like the Bengals did for Joe Burrow, etc etc etc, ....

   Im not getting the refusal to admit that wr WAS a huge problem that was helping make the offense not function.

@calfoxwc said:

the same can be said for Jacoby Brissett. I liked his play, too - but he didn't have the wr that people are talking about now,  either. Announcers were talking about it during games.

Sure, once in a while one was open, UNEXPECTEDLY. I said it a lot - the Browns needed a legit deep threat that opened things up for other wr's and the TE. I said look at the difference between the Bengals before and after Jamarr Chase.  Same qb, albeit a more experienced one. I would have been delighted to go with Brissett - and add that "Jamarr Chase" to the wr group - and see if he could light it up and get to the playoffs again.

I'm going to unpack and tear down all of this.  Not for you, not at all.  No response from you will be read by myself.  This is for anyone who would believe that you have anything to contribute worth reading (spoiler alert, you don't).    Let's begin...

 Nobody has mentioned WR as a desperation or even a need.  It has been a mutual discussion on BPA and depth.  With Coop the pressing "need" for a WR isn't there.  You'll notice that's also why Njoku and Bryant are being talked about, with a lesser extent Bell and Felton.  Because the collective of pass catchers as a whole is the topic.  You didn't see a soup advocating for WR at 42 before Dalvin Tomlinson was brought on board. This is strictly BPA talk. 

 Watson is currently set to walk into the 2023 season with the exact same pass catchers Jacoby had in 2022.  Anyone drafted likely won't be slotted in for starting barring a miracle or a disaster. 

And you keep bringing up Jamarr and Burrow. So we'll deep dive into that one. 

During his injury shortened 2020 season, Burrow's stats looked like this. 

10 GS 

404 attempts

2,688 yards 

268.8 avg 

6.8 YPC 

13 TD's 

5 INT's. 

89.8 RTG. 

 Keep in mind, that's his rookie season alone.  The one where you're implying the Bengals receivers weren't very good, hence why they drafted Chase. Using the same volume passing and over a 16 game season, Joey's numbers play out to around...

4,288 yards 

6.8 YPC 

21 TD's 

8 INT's 

65.3% comp 

-------------------

 Let's go a step further. We'll throw out the rookie season high and low games and work to find our true median. That brings us to numbers that look like. 

 262.3 YPG 

 10 TDs 

 3 INTs 

64.5% comp 

1.25 TDs per game to .3int.  So 4.15x more TDs per game than picks thrown. 

 All of those numbers best any 10 game stretch from Bakers career 2018-2020.  I checked.   That is with an offensive line that has graded out worse than the Browns over that same season and receivers, as you put it, needed Jamarr chase to "open things up".  Looking at personnel and Oline grades, the Browns 2019 team compares favorably to the Bengals 2020 group. (again, without Chase)   That was Baker's worst season. Where, even in his best, he still falls criminally short of numbers Burrow was approaching as a rook. 

The Bengals added Jamarr because, as a rookie, Joe Burrow was already better than a 3rd year Baker. Hell, senior season at LSU Joe was better than 3rd year NFL Baker.  They also went for a position for two reasons - BPA dictated as much, and CIN knew they had a QB who could maximize the skill set of said receiver.   Did they "need" him? No, it was luxury they have the QB ability to show off with. 

  If I give Tom Brady Randy Moss, then you're going to get 2007.   If I give Jacoby Brissett Randy Moss, yes your team will be better for it and so will your QB.  But you aren't going to be 2007 special.  Not even close.  

 Because the handicap, the bottleneck on your team, is your QB.  Who won't maximize the talent he has been handed.  You cannot have the most important position in the entire sport being the player that holds the offense under the glass ceiling.  Which was Baker's problem.  With that means you'll be overpaying and not getting equivalent value in return.    

Joey Buckets is still going to be great with an average group of receivers, we've seen some of that.  Baker will not be great with an average group of receivers, and we've seen that as well. 

Now, do I know for certain Watson is going to be THAT QB?  No.  But I hope to God he is.  But still, this is an evidence based game in a QB driven league.  Any and all evidence, from how defensive coaches structure and call their game, to how the stats look on the sheet, points in a direction that highly favored Deshaun. 

 Cal, I preferred it when you just came out of the closet as a Baker lover and nothing else.  Because I know I'm not even replying to a Browns fan, which is tragic.  But you only serve to embarrass yourself when you chime in with this nonsense.    You'll notice, aside from Dutch trolling you a bit, not a person besides myself bothered to respond.   Move on.  

Edit: something else I hadn't considered. 

Jacoby's stats projected over a 16 game season look like. 

3792 yards 

237ypg 

19 TDs 

8ints  

64% comp 

7.1 YPA 

High water mark of 2020. 

3563 yards 

222.8 YPG 

26TDs 

8ints 

62.8% comp 

7.3 YPA 

The high water mark again being Baker.  Why would I hand him $35+ mil a year for a 7 TD difference?   We understand Jacoby to be a journeyman QB.  Capable, completely unspectacular, and unable to elevate the talent around him.  

 So if the results are so comparable, then why all the hand-wringing about Baker?  It's white noise at this point. Best to let it go. ️