Let the DA vs. Quinn debate begin
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we pay the bonus or the cap hit (which is about the same) so we spend the 5 mil regardless, right?\ said:
It's 5M + 1.45M or to the tune of 6.45M to be a back up. No just 1.45M or just 5M, its a total of both. That is the issue at hand.is there a way for the team to get around paying one or the other?
if not it's a wash ........they spend almost 5 mil and possibly gain a (low?) draft pick (if anything- basically spending 5 mil for nothing and still losing a starting caliber QB)
or spend 6.45 mil and add a starting caliber QB with 24 starts in Chud's offense, basically adding a QB for 1.45 mil. i dunno. maybe we're missing something. how many years left on BQ's deal? enough, right? and BE and S. Jones are due this year. any others?
if the Browns don't keep DA in '09 i seriously doubt it's because they couldn't afford him. well managed teams seem like they can afford the things they want, and this team has gone after many a few already.
in general, this team seems to like to rule out possibilities, make certain it's sure before turning any corners. it sees what it wants and goes and gets it. these ventures don't always pan out but if this is any indication for the future, if they want DA, odds are it'll happen.
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we pay the bonus or the cap hit (which is about the same) so we spend the 5 mil regardless, right?\ said:
It's 5M + 1.45M or to the tune of 6.45M to be a back up. No just 1.45M or just 5M, its a total of both. That is the issue at hand.is there a way for the team to get around paying one or the other?
if not it's a wash ........they spend almost 5 mil and possibly gain a (low?) draft pick (if anything- basically spending 5 mil for nothing and still losing a starting caliber QB)
or spend 6.45 mil and add a starting caliber QB with 24 starts in Chud's offense, basically adding a QB for 1.45 mil. i dunno. maybe we're missing something. how many years left on BQ's deal? enough, right? and BE and S. Jones are due this year. any others?
if the Browns don't keep DA in '09 i seriously doubt it's because they couldn't afford him. well managed teams seem like they can afford the things they want, and this team has gone after many a few already.
in general, this team seems to like to rule out possibilities, make certain it's sure before turning any corners. it sees what it wants and goes and gets it. these ventures don't always pan out but if this is any indication for the future, if they want DA, odds are it'll happen.
I see your point and where you are going.
I have to do some digging, but I think also keeping him will hurt more on the cap in 2010. On top of that, the escelators in BQs contract kick in if he is the starter, so that has to be factored in. That extra 2M in keeping DA might hurt more than it looks right now. Especially with BE's contract coming up, Jones's contract coming up, and KW looking to redo his deal.
Like I said to JADBF, there is a lot of fuzzy math when it comes to the cap and such. But you certainy don't move or cut DA unless there is no doubts on Quinn.
Me personally, I'd be just as content with Dorsey at back up instead of DA (in the world where we assume Quinn is indeed the real deal). He knows the O, can make the throws, and has starting experience.
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Foolish.
You absolutely DO NOT KEEP him.
Why? Because if Quinn hits a rough spot in his development (and he will, he is human and the Browns don't cheat a la the Patriots*) you don't want someone calling for D.A. to come back in. That is why you let him go, recover the cap space, and then go find a decent journeyman QB for a backup. If you already have that guy in Dorsey, then draft a Qb in the 6th or 7th round to come in and get pounded by the D during practice.
At this point, through good or bad, up or down, you keep B.Q. on the field unless he is injured or the team gives up on him.
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\ said:
Foolish.You absolutely DO NOT KEEP him.
Why? Because if Quinn hits a rough spot in his development (and he will, he is human and the Browns don't cheat a la the Patriots*) you don't want someone calling for D.A. to come back in. That is why you let him go, recover the cap space, and then go find a decent journeyman QB for a backup. If you already have that guy in Dorsey, then draft a Qb in the 6th or 7th round to come in and get pounded by the D during practice.
At this point, through good or bad, up or down, you keep B.Q. on the field unless he is injured or the team gives up on him.
My thoughts exactly Preacher. The only way DA gets back in this season is if Quinn gets injured, they're not going to flip flop starting QB's for the rest of the year. This is Quinn's team now so you have to cut ties with DA and get what you can for him and look for a free agent back up in the offseason if Dorsey isn't the answer. It was going to come to this sooner or later and it looks like sooner has arrived.
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From Pro Football weekly
http://www.profootballweekly.com/PFW/NF ... 110708.htm
Browns' QB controversy ended by Quinn's strong debut
By Mike Wilkening
Nov. 7, 2008
Say this for the sliding Browns: They won’t have to endure any talk of a QB controversy for the time being.
Brady Quinn was impressive in his first career start on Nov. 6, completing 23-of-35 passes for 239 yards with two touchdowns and no interceptions in a 34-30 loss to Denver. Quinn was not sacked, and he was more effective evading pressure than predecessor Derek Anderson. Short of an injury or significant and sustained regression from Quinn, we hear Anderson’s days as Cleveland’s starter are over for this season, and likely for the long term as well. Anderson, who is signed for two more seasons, now faces an uncertain future with the club.
Anderson’s supporters will claim the offense’s problems were hardly all on him, and their point was rather well-illustrated in Week 10, even in Quinn’s relatively smooth starting debut. For example, TE Kellen Winslow caught 10 passes for 111 yards and two touchdowns, but he also made three big mistakes in the fourth quarter: an offensive pass-interference penalty that zapped one Cleveland drive, a fumble that led to a Denver touchdown and a drop on Cleveland’s final offensive play.
The timing of the switch from Anderson to Quinn caught some by surprise. The Browns announced the move one day after the Week Nine loss to Baltimore, a game in which Anderson’s play fell off considerably after Edwards dropped a deep ball early in the fourth quarter. However, at his weekly Monday press conference, Romeo Crennel did not indicate he was going to change quarterbacks. The move was announced later in the day, giving rise to speculation the decision was not Crennel’s, as he later claimed it was. However, a source close to the club notes it shouldn’t be all that surprising Crennel would make a change at quarterback. He benched Charlie Frye in favor of Anderson in Week One of the 2007 season, and he indicated he had considered pulling Anderson during Week Four at Cincinnati before Anderson rebounded to lead a comeback win.
No matter how the Anderson-Quinn swap went down, the ramifications on this season — and the Browns’ future — are clear. Quinn will get the rest of the regular season to learn on the job, a job that is unquestionably his in 2009. That looks to be one of the few certainties in Cleveland as the Browns fade from contention earlier than could have been expected after such a promising ’07 campaign.
Sorry Lum's. Maybe if you pull those Savage and Crennel quotes from before the season's start, and wish real hard, they will be more than what people told you they were, GM/Coach speak.
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As I know the debate is only going to start to go even more, I am gonna put this up now as an apple to apple.DA in his first NFL start (which I will acknowlede was againt PIT in 2006):
21/37, 276 yards, 7.5 Y/A, 1 TD, 1 INT, 0 sacks, 1 FUM, 1 FUM Lost
CLE scored a total of 7 points.
BQ in his first NFL start (against DEN in 2008):
23/35, 239 yards, 6.9 Y/A, 2 TD, 0 INT, 0 sacks, 0 FUM, 0 FUM lost
CLE scored a total of 30 points.
Well put Masters!!!
Just wait until we can compare their 3rd start when you can repost the day DA had vrs a TB team only capable of 4 wins that season.
Folks, for ONLY 1 practice with a brand new unit of receivers he hadn't been working with in practice all year - leading us to 30 points and LONGER time of possession (32 min to 28 min) SHOULD have been a winning formula if our defense had shown up.
- Tom F. (Isn't it refreshing not to have to stress out hoping our QB knows what color jerseys we're wearing this week? BTW, if we subtracted Cribbs' TD vrs Balt - was that even a LITTLE interesting in the 2nd half?)
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there's still a cap hit--what's the difference? they committed to the 10 mil guaranteed, whether it's on the front or the back, regardless of how the contract is layed out.The difference it is still 5 million you have to pay him.
I don't know about you, but even billionaires don't like to waste money.
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JADBF I do believe that 4.5M is not in addition, because it would still be spread (along with that 5M in March) through the life of the contract, unless DA is dumped. When you dump, that's when the pro rated goes to one year. As long as a guy is still under contract you can continue to spread it across the life.
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Makes sense, but a part of it would still count against this year though correct?Yes, I do believe a part would. If I am not mistaken (which I very well could be), if he were to play out his contract, in 2009 the second third of his signing bonus (2.3M) would count against the cap.
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If you are a Browns fan you don't care who the starting QB is, you just want a good one in their, if you are a fan of a certain QB that is fine too, just admit it and move on.
My question, for all the DA supporters, what would you say if that had been DA in their against the Bronco's and put up the same numbers and the same out come?
Simple you would be pinning the blame where it needs to be laid for this game, on the D, anytime you put up 30 against an opponent, and are up by that much you should win, but when your D is as porous as it was that nite, that is where most of the blame needs to be. Shoud Quinn take some blame yes, just like the receivers share some of the blame for DA's problems. But the bulk of DA's problems are his.
Do I like DA yes, do I think he can make it in this league sure to a point, do I think he is the best QB on the roster for the Browns NO!
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Here is a disturbing downward trend, a month-by-month look going back to October 2007: 62.4; 59.6; 53.1; 49.6; 49.5 and finally he was 17-of-33 (51.4) in the Baltimore game.
Holy smokes do Lum, Sev and ONB still think DA was pulled because of the fans? Those numbers do not correspond to a guy who was making his 25th start in the NFL. I mean come on, look at those disgraceful numbers.
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\ said:
Foolish.You absolutely DO NOT KEEP him.
Why? Because if Quinn hits a rough spot in his development (and he will, he is human and the Browns don't cheat a la the Patriots*) you don't want someone calling for D.A. to come back in.
Good point preacher man, the last thing any BQ Fan worth his salt wants to see is the return of the Pro Bowl QB back to the starting lineup. And they know the ONLY way to keep Derek Anderson from starting games in the future for the Browns is to trade him to another team. And although BQ's leash with the fans is miles and miles long, the front office isn't just going to keep trotting the golden boy out there for the delight of the pink #10 jersey crowd if the losses mount. Especially with the winningest QB since the expansion standing on the sidelines.
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DA is gone.. Trade bait for a 2nd or 3rd rounder and we will grab a free agent to be the backup. 1st round on a RB, 2nd round on the OL (gotta protect the franchise) the remaining picks on Defense.We're a mess. What really dumb franchise is going to give us any more than we got for Charlie Frye or Luke McCown?
If we've gotta gag 1 more year on a candyass 3-4 with a LBing corps full of ankle grabbers - let's just count on our usual 5-6 wins under the Phil Savage regime.
The ideas of Cowher, Schottenheimer and Spagnola are really good and they make too much sense. The problem is WHO is going to bring a guy like Spags good football players when Phil's idea of GREAT LBers are: Matt Stewart, Andra Davis (got a raise), Antwaan Peek, Nick Speegle, D'Qwell Jackson, Leon Williams and David McMillan. He doesn't GET it. And his idea of ideal pass rusher is Kam Wimbley and Corey Williams. You folks DO know Justin Tuck was available to us way after the 13th pick overall.
Savage has a few GREAT picks like Joe Thomas (but that was a #3 overall - the pick of the litter) and Josh Cribbs wasn't a pick at all. He played college ball a rock's throw away AND it was Phil justifying the need to keep Northcutt longer because we didn't have a guy on the roster that could replace Northcutt in the return game. Remember that? Meanwhile, RAC thought Denise brought experience and leadership to the WR Corps. All he did was show the younger guys how to drop passes over the middle and on 3rd downs. Dude went to Jax and got overpaid again for minimal exchange value. When the draft day scouting report reads: needs ear plugs or courage - it's not good. Only kidding on that but what a disappointment. It took him 3 years before we saw TD #1. Cribbs is WAY better and it was immediate right or wrong? Savage said "Denise is wonderful in and out of his cuts." That's fine if he could only catch a 3rd down toss hitting him in the hands.
Here's what Spagnola had as pass rushers in the last 2 years:
Matthias Kiwanuka, Michael Strahan, Osi Youmeanbasterd, Just-TONE Tuck and their girthy inside gusy are all DRAFT picks that don't cost anything NEAR what we've paid guys like Corey Williams, Shaun Smith, and Robaire Smith. Cofield drafted in rd 4 and Jay Alford drafted in rd 3. Didn't both kids sack Brady on Superbowl Sunday? As we hear everyone complaining about Kam Wimbley guess what rd Tuck was picked in? Rd 3. We had 3 chances to draft him but let me guess - "he's not a 3-4 guy right?" I know, he tackles people, chases QBs and causes turnovers so I'm well aware he doesn't fit Phil's must have 3-4. Strahan and Osi were both rd 2 guys. Their ONLY free agent on the dline was a nobody by the name of Fred Robbins meaning BECAUSE they draft well they don't overpay free agents feeling like they already played their best football. NY brings in guys hungry to PROVE themselves. The ONLY guys we sort of got this with are Cribbs and Hall.
Phil's choices of WRs - all seem to have the dropsies whether it's Travis Wilson or Paul Hubbard. If I had to summarize message board takes on Phil's other choices of WR - which of these guys drew consistent praise from our message board? Antonio Bryant, Braylon Edwards, Booboo Stallworth or Joe J. Joe J prolly gets the most positives but in 3 years - has he suited up for more games than he wore blue jeans to? He's had the rib problems from Dumb Ass hanging him out and now he's got other issues. In 2006, we came to training camp hearing he had a lingering pulled groin. 6 years ago was the time to sign him for millions. We've brought in too many free agents destined for injury from wear and tear and overpaid the crap out of them. I don't care HOW GREAT they were if they can't put the pads on folks.
Doesn't ever look at WHY we're always the most devastated by injury? I'd love to feel like RAC is 100% of that because the solution is simple. Phil's not making us better on draft day. There's been a few excellent finds but not nearly enough over 4 years. It's not the first round draft picks that make or break GMs. 1) It's their choice of franchise QB and 2) It's what they do after round 1 on draft day. I'll give Phil credit for Cribbs and Wright but what mid-late late round picks are wowing us weekly if at all? Harrison right? Who else over 4 years? If I'm the owner (scary thought) I gotta be asking why so MUCH of our cap is showing up to games in blue jeans and why we don't have leser paid draftees trained and ready to rock. Travis Wilson? Jon Dunn? Chase Pittman? Nick Speegle? David McMillan? Demario Minter? Andrew Hoffman? Babe Oshinowo? Isaac Sowells (wasn't he rumored to be a pansy in the Big 10?) What defensive depth upfront impressed us the other night vrs Denver? And we couldn't run inside on Denver's scab defense AFTER the first quarter right or wrong? They were shocked we were so easy BUT isn't that how a rookie QB from Balt goes undefeated against us?
I think Quinn's performance with only 1 practice was awesome inspite of the absurdity of making the short week the ideal time to do that. One practice? It's obvious RAC hasn't been the answer BUT I can't fault him for the crappy players Phil continued to draft. Let's not give him TOO MUCH credit for finding Cribbs playing college ball a couple hours away.
- Tom F. (At least guys like Cribbs, Quinn and Thomas show us some HOPE. I was excited for Thursday's Game for the first time in a long time BUT our defense quit on RAC and we seated too may offensive playmakers like Harrison and Cribbs to overwork Winslow)
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\ said:
Foolish.You absolutely DO NOT KEEP him.
Why? Because if Quinn hits a rough spot in his development (and he will, he is human and the Browns don't cheat a la the Patriots*) you don't want someone calling for D.A. to come back in.
Good point preacher man, the last thing any BQ Fan worth his salt wants to see is the return of the Pro Bowl QB back to the starting lineup. And they know the ONLY way to keep Derek Anderson from starting games in the future for the Browns is to trade him to another team. And although BQ's leash with the fans is miles and miles long, the front office isn't just going to keep trotting the golden boy out there for the delight of the pink #10 jersey crowd if the losses mount. Especially with the winningest QB since the expansion standing on the sidelines.
ok he is the winninest QB, congrats to him but that does not mean that, his level of play is the highest we should expect from the QB of the Browns.
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