Draft so you can win more games

Flugel

@syd said:

@TonyGrossi

Georgia OT Monroe Freeling having his pro day today. Browns repped only by scouts Shaun Herock & Matt Donahoe, per source

My guess Syd is since he attended and participated at the Combine; between that and film study - they should have already had sufficient data collected on him.

tiamat63

@gator said:

@tiamat63

I've lurked here a long time and I know you deep dive into the X's and O's. I'm curious on your opinion of Taylen Green out of Arkansas.

He seems very Lamar Jacksonesque. Idk if Monken would look at him as a young QB he could mold.

Apologies if he's already been discussed!

You asked a question, here's my answer so far.

Re: the Lamar Jackson comparison. Because I've been hearing it ALOT lately. My Rebuttal...

Green's build and running style doesn't remind me of Lamar at all. I absolutely see Vince Young when he pulls down the football. At least, the same threat vertically in the open field. Green doesn't have the same lateral ability Vince had and he isn't even close to what Lamar can do in short space/ East-West.

The clip I posted above is a nice reference for SOME of the patience he can show in the pocket when the call design is to push the ball vertically. I even slowed down a part of the clip. When he hits that back foot at the top of his drop, you see him still keeping his eyes downfield, looking for his vertical mark and climbing the pocket - all at the SAME time. It sounds silly but it's very uncommon to see that in 2026. His height gives him an advantage of survey that many others don't have. Including the ability to work from confined spaces while having greater vision of the field.

**Pros**

- Fantastic measurables. (As mentioned above)

- Solid feel for when to pull the ball down and escape. Great vertical threat when he opens up and runs.

- Shows flashes of patience when put in crowded, chaotic pockets.

- Natural arm strength is above average. Ball arrives with velocity.

- Efficient operation in the QB Centric/supplemented read option game. Also seems to have a good command of his keys in the RPO game.

- Makes OK-ish choices throwing hot.

**CONS**

... Pretty much everything else.

- Footwork is a mess. Doesn't matter if it's in gun or UC. At times, Green does that same, what I can only call a "gather step" in shorter drops. Similar to what Baker did in his early days, that has his right foot out in front of him, delaying his arm mechanics for the throw. I know when Stefanski arrived it was an incredibly subtle thing, yet a larger mechanical issue they wanted to iron out. Footwork has been Baker's biggest mechanical struggle throughout his NFL career. He even had some trouble a couple years ago when he started with Tampa. If you don't have great structure early, it's a bitch to fix later and that shit lingers.

Building a QB is like anything else, it starts from the ground up. But, much like any proper foundation, widely overlooked, not given the weight of it's importance, or intentionally neglected. Anywho, yeah, his footwork in the RPO game delays the ball getting out. 3-5-7 step drops from under center are sloppy and not that, Tom Brady type deliberate, which should be every QB's gold standard.

- Throwing motion can be a real problem. Highly exaggerated wind-up. He doesn't do the Tim Tebow "windmill" (elbow drops too far) but the elongation behind his frame almost looks like someone getting into their shotput stance. Ball has zip when he gets it out, but I compare it to a trebuchet. There's also no consistency with his un-pressured delivery point. Sometimes you have to throw off-platform and adjust your delivery, that's modern QB'ing. Same with golf as it is with football. But like hitting the links, your swinging motion the other 90% of the time needs to be consistent and 2nd nature. If not? You'll never be par the course.

Those two right there are enough to drop him to a late day 2, early day 3 prospect. When your feet are a mess it effects everything. When you mix in the questionable mechanics as a passer, then you've essentially become a rebuilding project. The footwork needs to be torn down to the frame and rebuilt. The arm can be 2nd. Fix the feet and the delivery timing will naturally improve as will the accuracy. But unless the arm work is improved, that will be his limit. In that respect, that's where the Lamar Jackson comparison comes into play. Lamar's footwork has greatly improved in the NFL. His throwing motion still has the same base function as it did at Louisville, minus him elevating his delivery point to a more 2/3rds rotation.

I see glimpses of Green going through progressions. Arkansas looks like they play a heavy pure progression system. I didn't see any evidence of full field reads. They like to limit to half field and play the common 1-->2-->check Other times I see him lock and fire onto his primary, which gets him into trouble or doesn't Maximize the Concept. As a result, yards are left on the table.

Physically the kid has gifts. That alone will get him drafted. But right now I don't see his gifts as a runner being enough to compensate for his deficiencies as a passer early on. Similar to Anthony Richardson - he's ready to be a full time athlete, but he has a long way to go before he's a comprehensive, NFL QB.

Dutch Oven

Dutch Oven

Here's a small school guy with great measurables (6'3" 206lbs, 4.42/40) who is a physical specimen. Needs to hit the weight room and improve his route-running. Could be someone to look at long and hard in the 2nd or 3rd rounds.Greg Cosell speaks highly of him and has him solidly in his top 10 WRs.

ballpeen

@dutch-oven said:

Here's a small school guy with great measurables (6'3" 206lbs, 4.42/40) who is a physical specimen. Needs to hit the weight room and improve his route-running. Could be someone to look at long and hard in the 2nd or 3rd rounds.Greg Cosell speaks highly of him and has him solidly in his top 10 WRs.

Been on him for a good while. He is going to be good.

Measurements and background remind me of Terrel Owens. Owen played here in Chattanooga, a big fast kid who went on to a great NFL career.

Orion

Thank you Joe. I'm right there with ya!

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SdBacker80

@orion said:

Thank you Joe. I'm right there with ya!

I don’t know….Sounds like a hedge.

WR is need 1a and OT is need 1b but If there is value (insert OSU Defender) you take advantage of that.

Sounds like he’s just not on board with Ty Simpson at 6

tiamat63

@sdbacker80 said:

Sounds like he’s just not on board with Ty Simpson at 6

Nobody should be.

SdBacker80

@tiamat63 said:

Nobody should be.

Agree this would set us back at least four more years. Have to figure we give him a shot with a handful of games in 26. We win 3/4 games again and we pass on a 27 QB to give him a chance in 2027.

Dutch Oven

@tiamat63 said:

Nobody should be.

Drafting Ty Simpson at 6 after enduring the Watson debacle is the ultimate example of "Two wrongs don't make a right".

Ty Simpson has some definite positives, but he's so inexperienced and honestly so not ready to endure the physical demands of playing in the NFL. He needs to go to a team that brings him up like a Packers QB, and that team is not your Cleveland Browns. It would be a recipe for disaster.

Dutch Oven

@sdbacker80 said:

Agree this would set us back at least four more years. Have to figure we give him a shot with a handful of games in 26. We win 3/4 games again and we pass on a 27 QB to give him a chance in 2027.

Or we realize our error and draft ANOTHER QB high in 2027, and basically piss a #6 overall pick away.

Either way, just don't draft Simpson at #6.

Orion

@sdbacker80 said:

I don’t know….Sounds like a hedge.

WR is need 1a and OT is need 1b but If there is value (insert OSU Defender) you take advantage of that.

He didn't specify. Which could mean that there is someone at the top of the draft that he doesn't expect to fall to us.

I usually like JT's take on things (but not always). During his playing days he was talking to a reporter. He was saying how the difference between winning and losing in the NFL is very slim. He said that it's imperative to have a QB and passing attack capable of coming down the FG at the end of the game to score the winning points. You can't run yourself down the field at the end of the game, or end of the half. And so many games come down to the wire. I remember thinking that he might make a good HC.

Dutch Oven

The buzz locally around the Browns loving Simpson keeps picking up steam.

I hope to dog it's just a smokescreen to get someone to trade up for the Browns #6 pick. It makes sense for a team that desperately needs a LTackle and WR, in a draft where there is absolutely no slam-dunk LT or WR that is an easy pick for the Browns at 6.

ballpeen

@dutch-oven said:

The buzz locally around the Browns loving Simpson keeps picking up steam.

I hope to dog it's just a smokescreen to get someone to trade up for the Browns #6 pick. It makes sense for a team that desperately needs a LTackle and WR, in a draft where there is absolutely no slam-dunk LT or WR that is an easy pick for the Browns at 6.

We are at the point where you can't trust anything that is said. Our top priority is to trade back(IMO), so we will see us loving everybody.

No matter, somebody will want one of the defenders who will be on the board as that is where the strength will sit when we pick at 6. The ideal is Love is there, somebody will want him.

tiamat63

@dutch-oven said:

Or we realize our error and draft ANOTHER QB high in 2027, and basically piss a #6 overall pick away.

Either way, just don't draft Simpson at #6.

This is the same mentality I said about Johnny Manziel. Thinking, if the Browns passed early, they'd pass late.

.... I was wrong.

edit: Likely smokescreen.

Bob806

@tiamat63 said:

This is the same mentality I said about Johnny Manziel. Thinking, if the Browns passed early, they'd pass late.

.... I was wrong.

edit: Likely smokescreen.

I was with about a dozen friends at a bar in Berea that night, told them they can't draft that idiot. If they did, I'd buy a drink of their choice.

Welp, that cost me $120 and misery, probably cost the Browns a playoff spot as well. Remember, they were 6-3 and in first place, but Farmer & Haslam wanted Manziel to play?

tiamat63

@bob806 said:

I was with about a dozen friends at a bar in Berea that night, told them they can't draft that idiot. If they did, I'd buy a drink of their choice.

Welp, that cost me $120 and misery, probably cost the Browns a playoff spot as well. Remember, they were 6-3 and in first place, but Farmer & Haslam wanted Manziel to play?

OOF. I feel you, bubs. The first and, to date, the only bar I've ever been kicked out of ("asked" to leave) was Smokey Bones in Mentor that night. Everybody cheered when JM was picked. I slammed two shots of 151 and MF'd everybody up and down the bar who were celebrating. In hindsight, I absolutely should have not acted a fool. But I was vindicated with my eval within 8 months.

That 6-3 collapse was multi-faceted issue. I remember my long talks with @tour2ma, ( god rest him) being that it was my 1st season on this board. Losing Alex Mack, and then your backup center absolutely ruined the running game. Spotty running game lead to ineffective PAP game, the area Hoyer was able to be his most effective self.

When the offense stalled, it wasn't specifically Manziel's fault. As that was already in process. However, the coaching staff (Haslam & Farmer, really) tried to implement their own fix by inserting Johnny. Which only made the offense even worse. Toss in Jim O Neil with his 2 gap bullshit on defense, giving up 130+ a game on the ground... collapse was inevitable.

I don't blame Johnny for all of the Browns woes from that period. But he sure did more than his part to contribute to them.

MLD Woody

I was at a Winking Lizard and told my friends I'd buy them all Jabrill Peppers jerseys if we drafted him. That changed to t shirts real quick...

MLD Woody

God, I hope we don't take a QB at 6. Not seeing anyone worth it there.

Dutch Oven

@tiamat63 said:

OOF. I feel you, bubs. The first and, to date, the only bar I've ever been kicked out of ("asked" to leave) was Smokey Bones in Mentor that night. Everybody cheered when JM was picked. I slammed two shots of 151 and MF'd everybody up and down the bar who were celebrating. In hindsight, I absolutely should have not acted a fool. But I was vindicated with my eval within 8 months.

That 6-3 collapse was multi-faceted issue. I remember my long talks with @tour2ma, ( god rest him) being that it was my 1st season on this board. Losing Alex Mack, and then your backup center absolutely ruined the running game. Spotty running game lead to ineffective PAP game, the area Hoyer was able to be his most effective self.

When the offense stalled, it wasn't specifically Manziel's fault. As that was already in process. However, the coaching staff (Haslam & Farmer, really) tried to implement their own fix by inserting Johnny. Which only made the offense even worse. Toss in Jim O Neil with his 2 gap bullshit on defense, giving up 130+ a game on the ground... collapse was inevitable.

I don't blame Johnny for all of the Browns woes from that period. But he sure did more than his part to contribute to them.

Manziel wasn’t blamed enough for being the turd he was.

I was at my friends house that night, and when the Browns traded up to 22 I audibly groaned. I knew exactly who the Browns were taking before it was announced. One of the guys there was Pete Smith, you might be familiar with his work. I think he might have even covered the Browns for SI at one point. He laughed and laughed and laughed when it was announced