Its not the coaching..
-
i get what you're saying and i agree with you to some extent. however you must look at how those players got here to begin with and THAT is the coaches fault. it is also the coach's fault that they call stupid plays that don't work.
once a fan, always a fan. married to a steeler fan. aaaaaaaaah! --andy -
You are forgetting Zastudil. Our punter is awesome but he gets a lot of game time practice.
-
It's going to take 2 more drafts and free agent signing seasons to get this team up to par.
-
while RAC and Savage do deserve an FU for the state they left us in, no way did they leave as as bad as we are now. This regime had its share of bloopers too.
>> In the RAC era we had K2 and BE. say what you want about K2 and how his knees are gonners in 2 years but see how he is playing in TB. He still has the talent and the hands. we let him leave without getting a sure shot TE who can atleast hang on to the ball.
>> Stallworth was a gonner, BE had dropsies and Mangini nvr bought in enough reinforcements that are capable of getting the job done. and trying Cribbs @ WR has to stop.
>> QB controversy. He did nothing to quench it. It still rages on. Only now both our QBs have a terrible trade value.
>> Drafting. Was Alex Mack the most glaring need of the team ? Did we had to trade down so many times ? We passed up on some decent defensive studs and beanie wells who could have made a decent impact on our team.
>> Brian Daboll. After seeing what u have all seen can u seriously say Chud was bad ?
-
i get what you're saying and i agree with you to some extent. however you must look at how those players got here to begin with and THAT is the coaches fault. it is also the coach's fault that they call stupid plays that don't work.
i get what you're saying and i agree with you to some extent. however you must look at how those players got here to begin with and THAT is the coaches fault. it is also the coach's fault that they call stupid plays that don't work.
The thing is, the current staff didn't do this to them. They are basically a bunch of college kids that were never developed and then dumped onto Mangini to "fix". And the playcalling is what it is, but it means NOTHING if players are getting beat on every down by the guy in front of them. It doesn't matter what you call if the talent can't execute or beat the guy in front of them. I heard Reghi talking about the coaches "taking advantage of matchups and getting creative" That is hilarious when the team you have is outmatched almost to the man. What "matchup" do we ever have in our favor? Special teams? LT? It ends there. What untapped talent are we neglecting to get "creative" with? Its like having flight attendents fly a plane. Yeah they know the lingo, yeah they have been in the industry for a while, yeah they understand policy, but I aint about to let them land the plane!
"Chances are, if you think Jay Leno is funny, I don't care for you as a person" - Peter Griffin -
This team is talentless. Thomas, Stienbach, Mack, Rogers, Cribbs. Outside of that, we not only have no talent, we don't have many NFL caliber players at all.
Outside of those 5 guys, not ONE player beat their guy on a single play yesterday. We are totally outmatched by every team in the league outside of Oakland and maybe KC. I don't know how Mangini is gonna do it this off-season but he is going to have to replace 30-40 players in a hurry. This team is a joke. Davis, Savage, RAC....F-YOU!!!
There is just no way you can scheme, coach, or gameplan with these players. You cannot ask them to do anything above fundamental football and expect any success. They are bad, really bad. It has got to be embarresing for the coaches knowing that each week another team is watching film on us getting prepared and seeing everything this team doesn't have.
We can't blame the coaches anymore. If you watch these players they are just getting beat on a down-by-down basis. Each and every one of them. Wimbley had Grant wrapped up with both arms and Grant just slipped out like he was coated in vaseline. How in the hell, at this level, do you let that happen? That is a microcosm of what this team doesn't do. Wright got punked again on TV. How many players do you think get punked every week like that guy does and have a job still? Is that coaching? Nope, is that scheme? Nope. Is that gameplan? Nope. That is what it looks like when you put bad players on the field in this league. Its a goddamned joke. I like DA but he looked like crap yesterday. He came out 5/5 and guys were catching it and then, he started forcing balls and leading defenders to his target before throwing it. That is not a coaching issue, they don't coach him to do that, thats not part of the gameplan, that is just a dumb QB.
My friend is a 10th grade English teacher and she said something once that applies here. She said that by the time students get to her they are way behind where they should be. So she has to go back and re-teach 7th grade material before she can even start the 10th grade material. I think that is where this team is right now. The difference is, this is the NFL and so you don't get time to coach up crappy players who are 2-5 years in the league, you just release them. And a lot of guys need to be gone.
This team is talentless. Thomas, Stienbach, ... we don't have many NFL caliber players at all.
There is a ton of money behind these two guys as well considering we can't gain one yard on the goal line in 4 tries.
I don't think Steinbach returns.
-
i get what you're saying and i agree with you to some extent. however you must look at how those players got here to begin with and THAT is the coaches fault. it is also the coach's fault that they call stupid plays that don't work.
The thing is, the current staff didn't do this to them. They are basically a bunch of college kids that were never developed and then dumped onto Mangini to "fix". And the playcalling is what it is, but it means NOTHING if players are getting beat on every down by the guy in front of them. It doesn't matter what you call if the talent can't execute or beat the guy in front of them. I heard Reghi talking about the coaches "taking advantage of matchups and getting creative" That is hilarious when the team you have is outmatched almost to the man. What "matchup" do we ever have in our favor? Special teams? LT? It ends there. What untapped talent are we neglecting to get "creative" with? Its like having flight attendents fly a plane. Yeah they know the lingo, yeah they have been in the industry for a while, yeah they understand policy, but I aint about to let them land the plane!
The thing is, the current staff didn't do this to them. They are basically a bunch of college kids that were never developed and then dumped onto Mangini to "fix". And the playcalling is what it is, but it means NOTHING if players are getting beat on every down by the guy in front of them. It doesn't matter what you call if the talent can't execute or beat the guy in front of them. I heard Reghi talking about the coaches "taking advantage of matchups and getting creative" That is hilarious when the team you have is outmatched almost to the man. What "matchup" do we ever have in our favor? Special teams? LT? It ends there. What untapped talent are we neglecting to get "creative" with? Its like having flight attendents fly a plane. Yeah they know the lingo, yeah they have been in the industry for a while, yeah they understand policy, but I aint about to let them land the plane!
mangini brought in what: 22 guys?. so far none of those guys have been worth a thing. the guys he inherited from romeo certainly is his fault, but the new ones certainly are.
once a fan, always a fan. married to a steeler fan. aaaaaaaaah! --andy -
>>
In the RAC era we had K2 and BE. say what you want about K2 and how his knees are gonners in 2 years but see how he is playing in TB. He still has the talent and the hands. we let him leave without getting a sure shot TE who can atleast hang on to the ball.
Yeah but we needed picks and he was the only guy with trade value. His talent was useless here without a team around him to compliment him. And Braylon, he NEVER would have played for this team and also, he's not exactly awesome in NY right now.
>>
Stallworth was a gonner, BE had dropsies and Mangini nvr bought in enough reinforcements that are capable of getting the job done. and trying Cribbs @ WR has to stop.
He drafted two WRs that will need at least a full year to develope. He also brought in a few vets, Furry and Patten.
>>
QB controversy. He did nothing to quench it. It still rages on. Only now both our QBs have a terrible trade value.
>>As long as you have two bad QBs, you will have a QB controversy. He didn't draft either of them. And they had no trade value to begin with, which is why they were never traded.
Drafting. Was Alex Mack the most glaring need of the team ? Did we had to trade down so many times ? We passed up on some decent defensive studs and beanie wells who could have made a decent impact on our team.
>>Considering how many picks we got that we didn't have before, and how well Mack is playing, it was the right move.
And I can still say Chud was bad. What I can't say yet is if Daboll is bad. Remember Bruce Arians? Yeah, he SUCKED when he was here and now look at him. You need players of you are going to call plays.
"Chances are, if you think Jay Leno is funny, I don't care for you as a person" - Peter Griffin -
The thing is, the current staff didn't do this to them. They are basically a bunch of college kids that were never developed and then dumped onto Mangini to "fix". And the playcalling is what it is, but it means NOTHING if players are getting beat on every down by the guy in front of them. It doesn't matter what you call if the talent can't execute or beat the guy in front of them. I heard Reghi talking about the coaches "taking advantage of matchups and getting creative" That is hilarious when the team you have is outmatched almost to the man. What "matchup" do we ever have in our favor? Special teams? LT? It ends there. What untapped talent are we neglecting to get "creative" with? Its like having flight attendents fly a plane. Yeah they know the lingo, yeah they have been in the industry for a while, yeah they understand policy, but I aint about to let them land the plane!
mangini brought in what: 22 guys?. so far none of those guys have been worth a thing. the guys he inherited from romeo certainly is his fault, but the new ones certainly are.
mangini brought in what: 22 guys?. so far none of those guys have been worth a thing. the guys he inherited from romeo certainly is his fault, but the new ones certainly are.
The thing with this idea is that they were free agents. You don't become a free agent when you are a star. He had to bring in some vets quick to stop the bleeding in a few areas and some Jets guys to pass along the philosophy and convince guys to buy into the system. I can't fault him for that or for how little they are producing.
-
This team is talentless. Thomas, Stienbach, Mack, Rogers, Cribbs. Outside of that, we not only have no talent, we don't have many NFL caliber players at all.
Outside of those 5 guys, not ONE player beat their guy on a single play yesterday. We are totally outmatched by every team in the league outside of Oakland and maybe KC. I don't know how Mangini is gonna do it this off-season but he is going to have to replace 30-40 players in a hurry. This team is a joke. Davis, Savage, RAC....F-YOU!!!
There is just no way you can scheme, coach, or gameplan with these players. You cannot ask them to do anything above fundamental football and expect any success. They are bad, really bad. It has got to be embarresing for the coaches knowing that each week another team is watching film on us getting prepared and seeing everything this team doesn't have.
We can't blame the coaches anymore. If you watch these players they are just getting beat on a down-by-down basis. Each and every one of them. Wimbley had Grant wrapped up with both arms and Grant just slipped out like he was coated in vaseline. How in the hell, at this level, do you let that happen? That is a microcosm of what this team doesn't do. Wright got punked again on TV. How many players do you think get punked every week like that guy does and have a job still? Is that coaching? Nope, is that scheme? Nope. Is that gameplan? Nope. That is what it looks like when you put bad players on the field in this league. Its a goddamned joke. I like DA but he looked like crap yesterday. He came out 5/5 and guys were catching it and then, he started forcing balls and leading defenders to his target before throwing it. That is not a coaching issue, they don't coach him to do that, thats not part of the gameplan, that is just a dumb QB.
My friend is a 10th grade English teacher and she said something once that applies here. She said that by the time students get to her they are way behind where they should be. So she has to go back and re-teach 7th grade material before she can even start the 10th grade material. I think that is where this team is right now. The difference is, this is the NFL and so you don't get time to coach up crappy players who are 2-5 years in the league, you just release them. And a lot of guys need to be gone.
This team is talentless. Thomas, Stienbach, Mack, Rogers, Cribbs. Outside of that, we not only have no talent, we don't have many NFL caliber players at all.
Outside of those 5 guys, not ONE player beat their guy on a single play yesterday. We are totally outmatched by every team in the league outside of Oakland and maybe KC. I don't know how Mangini is gonna do it this off-season but he is going to have to replace 30-40 players in a hurry. This team is a joke. Davis, Savage, RAC....F-YOU!!!
There is just no way you can scheme, coach, or gameplan with these players. You cannot ask them to do anything above fundamental football and expect any success. They are bad, really bad. It has got to be embarresing for the coaches knowing that each week another team is watching film on us getting prepared and seeing everything this team doesn't have.
We can't blame the coaches anymore. If you watch these players they are just getting beat on a down-by-down basis. Each and every one of them. Wimbley had Grant wrapped up with both arms and Grant just slipped out like he was coated in vaseline. How in the hell, at this level, do you let that happen? That is a microcosm of what this team doesn't do. Wright got punked again on TV. How many players do you think get punked every week like that guy does and have a job still? Is that coaching? Nope, is that scheme? Nope. Is that gameplan? Nope. That is what it looks like when you put bad players on the field in this league. Its a goddamned joke. I like DA but he looked like crap yesterday. He came out 5/5 and guys were catching it and then, he started forcing balls and leading defenders to his target before throwing it. That is not a coaching issue, they don't coach him to do that, thats not part of the gameplan, that is just a dumb QB.
My friend is a 10th grade English teacher and she said something once that applies here. She said that by the time students get to her they are way behind where they should be. So she has to go back and re-teach 7th grade material before she can even start the 10th grade material. I think that is where this team is right now. The difference is, this is the NFL and so you don't get time to coach up crappy players who are 2-5 years in the league, you just release them. And a lot of guys need to be gone.
BS. I totally blame Mangini for the way he's handled everything. He got rid of some good players. He's ultimately the one who's making the bad offense play calling by allowing Lewis to keep tip toeing up the gut and avg. 3 yds.
Watch how his players like Wright and Macdonald have given up on him. They weren't t his bad in prior years, Mangini is the reason. A coach needs to win over his players, and he never did that. He acts like a dictator with "my way or the highway" attitude. I'd guess players play bad on purpose so they can be traded or benched. He gets rid of good players in favor of mediocre subordinate players. All the really good players have attitudes these days, but it's no problem at all, WHEN YOURE WINNING!
He's been a hyporcite saying he's going to stick with the decision on the QB. Then he gave BQ a super short leash and didn't even give him all the players, in practice or the game! Terrible.
Yes they are in need of talent, but since we have threat receivers, why isn't more focus on the run? Harrison WITH Cribbs in the backfield AND QUINN who can scramble. With the little they have, they can do much more than they are.
Mangini is horrible and it's a waste for another 3 years.
-
There is a ton of money behind these two guys as well considering we can't gain one yard on the goal line in 4 tries.
I don't think Steinbach returns.
That is a good point. They may be better pass blockers than run blockers. But we do need an upgrade at RB like, right now. you know exactly where Jamal is going to run when he gets the ball and that doesn't help the OL much. Also, at his size, he should be able to get those yards mostly on his own.
-
The left side of the line and center are set for now.
On D, you have Shaun Rogers and maybe DQ Wimbley.
Special teams are good.
That leaves QB, WR, RB as major offensive needs and DE, LB, CB, and Safety as needs.
Those are a lot of needs to fill. On the plus side, the Browns can just go out and get the best players available on draft day, they pretty much have needs everywhere.
-
Bad owner and bad coaching...we could win with this talent if we had a real offensive coordinator that adjusts the offensive playbook to fit the personel we have instead of forcing the players into a high school football gamebook that every defense can readily deal with....
Its easy to see daboll is not nor ever will be an offensive guru...its also easy to see mangini will never be anything but a wannabe student of belichick instead of a true master and an innovator..part of being a great coach is making things work with what you have until you get the pieces you need and mangini and daboll have failed miserably and will continue to fail for at least 2 more years before lerner even considers whacking them...
We have been rebuilding since 1964, Why stop now? GO BROWNS! -
>>
In the RAC era we had K2 and BE. say what you want about K2 and how his knees are gonners in 2 years but see how he is playing in TB. He still has the talent and the hands. we let him leave without getting a sure shot TE who can atleast hang on to the ball.
Yeah but we needed picks and he was the only guy with trade value. His talent was useless here without a team around him to compliment him. And Braylon, he NEVER would have played for this team and also, he's not exactly awesome in NY right now.
>>
Stallworth was a gonner, BE had dropsies and Mangini nvr bought in enough reinforcements that are capable of getting the job done. and trying Cribbs @ WR has to stop.
He drafted two WRs that will need at least a full year to develope. He also brought in a few vets, Furry and Patten.
>>
QB controversy. He did nothing to quench it. It still rages on. Only now both our QBs have a terrible trade value.
>>As long as you have two bad QBs, you will have a QB controversy. He didn't draft either of them. And they had no trade value to begin with, which is why they were never traded.
Drafting. Was Alex Mack the most glaring need of the team ? Did we had to trade down so many times ? We passed up on some decent defensive studs and beanie wells who could have made a decent impact on our team.
>>Considering how many picks we got that we didn't have before, and how well Mack is playing, it was the right move.
And I can still say Chud was bad. What I can't say yet is if Daboll is bad. Remember Bruce Arians? Yeah, he SUCKED when he was here and now look at him. You need players of you are going to call plays.
>>
Yeah but we needed picks and he was the only guy with trade value. His talent was useless here without a team around him to compliment him. And Braylon, he NEVER would have played for this team and also, he's not exactly awesome in NY right now.
>>
He drafted two WRs that will need at least a full year to develope. He also brought in a few vets, Furry and Patten.
>> >>
As long as you have two bad QBs, you will have a QB controversy. He didn't draft either of them. And they had no trade value to begin with, which is why they were never traded.
>>
Considering how many picks we got that we didn't have before, and how well Mack is playing, it was the right move.
And I can still say Chud was bad. What I can't say yet is if Daboll is bad. Remember Bruce Arians? Yeah, he SUCKED when he was here and now look at him. You need players of you are going to call plays.
>> Joe thomas and Cribbs talent are wasted in this team too ... but that dont we trade them away for draft picks. We need to build around talent and KW2 could catch the ball. how many WR's/TE's are catching the balls now ?
>> The vets are not performing now and there is no guarantee the rookie WR's could perform well in the future. so we could still get over this year with nothing gained @ WR position.
>> He did not draft either but surely it is not difficult to make a choice and go with it from the beginning. And what is the purpose of having Ratliff here ?
>> How many picks look convincing ? How many picks are even the answer to the holes we had ?
-
This team is talentless. Thomas, Stienbach, Mack, Rogers, Cribbs. Outside of that, we not only have no talent, we don't have many NFL caliber players at all.
Outside of those 5 guys, not ONE player beat their guy on a single play yesterday. We are totally outmatched by every team in the league outside of Oakland and maybe KC. I don't know how Mangini is gonna do it this off-season but he is going to have to replace 30-40 players in a hurry. This team is a joke. Davis, Savage, RAC....F-YOU!!!
There is just no way you can scheme, coach, or gameplan with these players. You cannot ask them to do anything above fundamental football and expect any success. They are bad, really bad. It has got to be embarresing for the coaches knowing that each week another team is watching film on us getting prepared and seeing everything this team doesn't have.
We can't blame the coaches anymore. If you watch these players they are just getting beat on a down-by-down basis. Each and every one of them. Wimbley had Grant wrapped up with both arms and Grant just slipped out like he was coated in vaseline. How in the hell, at this level, do you let that happen? That is a microcosm of what this team doesn't do. Wright got punked again on TV. How many players do you think get punked every week like that guy does and have a job still? Is that coaching? Nope, is that scheme? Nope. Is that gameplan? Nope. That is what it looks like when you put bad players on the field in this league. Its a goddamned joke. I like DA but he looked like crap yesterday. He came out 5/5 and guys were catching it and then, he started forcing balls and leading defenders to his target before throwing it. That is not a coaching issue, they don't coach him to do that, thats not part of the gameplan, that is just a dumb QB.
My friend is a 10th grade English teacher and she said something once that applies here. She said that by the time students get to her they are way behind where they should be. So she has to go back and re-teach 7th grade material before she can even start the 10th grade material. I think that is where this team is right now. The difference is, this is the NFL and so you don't get time to coach up crappy players who are 2-5 years in the league, you just release them. And a lot of guys need to be gone.
This team is talentless. Thomas, Stienbach, Mack, Rogers, Cribbs. Outside of that, we not only have no talent, we don't have many NFL caliber players at all.
Outside of those 5 guys, not ONE player beat their guy on a single play yesterday. We are totally outmatched by every team in the league outside of Oakland and maybe KC. I don't know how Mangini is gonna do it this off-season but he is going to have to replace 30-40 players in a hurry. This team is a joke. Davis, Savage, RAC....F-YOU!!!
There is just no way you can scheme, coach, or gameplan with these players. You cannot ask them to do anything above fundamental football and expect any success. They are bad, really bad. It has got to be embarresing for the coaches knowing that each week another team is watching film on us getting prepared and seeing everything this team doesn't have.
We can't blame the coaches anymore. If you watch these players they are just getting beat on a down-by-down basis. Each and every one of them. Wimbley had Grant wrapped up with both arms and Grant just slipped out like he was coated in vaseline. How in the hell, at this level, do you let that happen? That is a microcosm of what this team doesn't do. Wright got punked again on TV. How many players do you think get punked every week like that guy does and have a job still? Is that coaching? Nope, is that scheme? Nope. Is that gameplan? Nope. That is what it looks like when you put bad players on the field in this league. Its a goddamned joke. I like DA but he looked like crap yesterday. He came out 5/5 and guys were catching it and then, he started forcing balls and leading defenders to his target before throwing it. That is not a coaching issue, they don't coach him to do that, thats not part of the gameplan, that is just a dumb QB.
My friend is a 10th grade English teacher and she said something once that applies here. She said that by the time students get to her they are way behind where they should be. So she has to go back and re-teach 7th grade material before she can even start the 10th grade material. I think that is where this team is right now. The difference is, this is the NFL and so you don't get time to coach up crappy players who are 2-5 years in the league, you just release them. And a lot of guys need to be gone.
That argument is such a cop out. Let me say this loudly. THE BROWNS DO NOT HAVE A TALENT PROBLEM. They have a congruence problem. The difference in talent from the top team in the league to the bottom team in the league is negligible at best. Now, some teams have excesses in talent in particular places... and that can make a big difference. But, when measuring NFL teams one to another, overall talent is rarely the deciding factor. The number 1 separator of NFL teams is congruence. Does the scheme match the coaching, match the players, match the environment? That is congruence. Right now, the Browns are failing in all four facets.
So much of football is "want-to". How much do you want it? How hard are you playing? How much are you giving? And if there is dissonance between the scheme and the players skills, it hurts the "want-to". If there is dissonance between the coach's style and the player's psyche, it hurts the "want-to". Every ounce of dissent and disagreement between a coach and a player, a scheme and a player takes up space in the psyche. It compromises focus, slows reactions, and limit's the players "want-to".
Did you ever notice when the Pittsburgh Steelers play defense, how much fun it looks like their having? It's because they are. What they're being asked to do matches their desire to do it. It "fits". You get yourself a bunch of big badasses and borderline criminals who like to push people around, and let them play downhill and punch people in the mouth. It works. It fits. And interestingly, they don't miss in the draft too often. Why do you suppose that is? It's because they know what they're looking for. They're out at the college games looking for "Steelers". They're not looking at stopwatches, they're not looking for a safety, they're not looking for a guard... they're looking for Steelers. And they've been looking for they same guys for 40 years, and they're damn good at it.
The Browns, on the other hand, don't know what they are. Mangini seems to know what he is... but he might be the only one. No one else can seem to get a read on the guy. You go try to do your job at 100% when you're trying to figure out if your boss's boss is plotting to get rid of you. It's tough. Try to do your job when you don't understand it and you don't know why your being asked to do it... then measure your effort.
Eric Mangini is a whiz kid. He's a football scientist of the first (OK maybe second) order. The problem is, most football players are not. There aren't a lot of 1520 SAT's on the field on Sunday afternoon. (Ok, I know they don't use the 1600 pt scale anymore, but you know what I mean). So what you end up with is a football team comprised of players that lack the cognitive skill to function within the system they're being given. It's incongruous. It's like asking a group of politicians to balance a checkbook. Oh they can do it, but it's going to be wrong half the time -- and when it isn't, it's going to take way too long. It's just not what they're good at. They've got the wrong skills.
Eric Mangini was hired because he has a vision of how to build a winning franchise. And to Randy Lerner's credit, that is a solution to a team that has no identity of its own. Mangini sold him on the idea that "... this is what a Cleveland Brown will be..." It's a hypothetical based on the implementation of Mangini's system. And he might be right. But there is no way on heaven or on earth that he's going to achieve his vision with this roster. And it's not because they "lack talent". It's because it's not a fit.
Since 1999, the Browns have had only 2 types of coaches, replicators and pacifiers. Romeo Crennell and Chris Palmer were the latter, Davis and Mangini the former. Davis was a Jimmy Johnson clone, and a poor one at that. Mangini, of course, is a Belichick disciple. Crennell parlayed his role as the insulation between Coach Parcells and the players into his grandpa Ro' role with the Browns. You can do some things that way, but in the mid-run (something sooner than the long run), that lovey-dovey coaching style will lead to an overall lack of intensity. Palmer was a pacifier, but he just pacified ownership, the fans, and anyone else who knew less football than he did. Plus, Chris is a coach, he's not a politician. He should've never been put in that role. But that's another story.
In 2009, the Browns have two problems (really several, but there are two big ones): The Browns have settled on Eric Mangini, who brings with him a system that does not suit more than half of the guys on this roster.... way more than half. This is compounded by problem #2 which is that Mangini's system isn't a fit for 80% or 90% of the guys in the league. It takes a special group of players to pull it off. It's hard enough when you have a replicated philosophy, but when you have one with such unique demands, the pool of appropriate players shrivels up pretty rapidly.
Put it this way, the Patriots have gone through a decade of trial and error to find guys who can play their system. Their biggest success seems to be in finding 8-9 year vets to come in and contribute for 1 or 2 years before they call it a career. Why do you suppose that is? Because guys that have been in the league for a long time find it easier to assimilate the complexities of the Patriot system. They're already pros. But it takes a lot of trial and error to find those guys. Last I checked there were only 3 or 4 guys left from that first championship team on the current roster. They have to keep shuttling guys in and out to make it work. And it's hard to weed through all that.
So, let's agree that the Patriots have been patient and masterful at finding "Patriot-type guys" in the league. OK, now add a Browns roster and a Chiefs and a Broncos roster that are looking for the same "guys". You just went from 53 guys to 212 (not counting the practice squads). It's quite possible that the Patriots have demonstrated over the last 10 years that there may not be 200 "patriot-type" guys in the NFL in any given year... There may not be 100. Which means, you're going to have to make some. And that is going to take time... and lots of it.
Now I'll listen to the argument that says, don't implement the system at the ground floor if you don't have at least a functional roster. But I'll probably disagree. The other argument is you force the system, take your lumps, then clear out the guys who don't fit. That also has it's merits.. but my God is it ugly on the front end. Mangini had some early success with the Jets by installing a hybrid of his system to more closely match the players he had. But compensating for guys that didn't fit, ended up extending the growing pains though 2008. Midway through 2008 that Jets team was still evolving into what Mangini wanted them to be. By that time he'd compromised his vision so far that it nearly imploded on itself. He didn't know what to do with the guys he had, and they didn't know what to do for him. He wasn't about to make that mistake again. He's not about to compromise how he wants something done to suit the talent of the players he has. They will fit him, or he'll do without. The downside is, it looks idiotic on the surface... and beyond that, of course, it may not work.
So here you are. You're witnessing the demolition of a team. And it probably has to be done. The worst part is it's like watching someone tear down your childhood home. Even if you knew they were going to build a beautiful new one on the same spot, it still hurts to watch them tear it apart. Add to that that you have no idea whether or not Mangini's plan will ever come to fruition, and you've got cause for alarm. I'd love to tell you that it will all be alright. But I can't say that. I can say that if it does work, it won't come easy. And there may be 2 or 3 seasons in row that are kinda like this one.
Anyway, the point of all this is, don't hang it all on the players, on Phil Savage, on Randy Lerner... there's plenty of blame to go around. Some of these guys will work out here. Most of them won't. Many will find some success somewhere else. But as much as it feels good to point to one thing and say, "there, that's the source of my pain." It's just not that easy. It, as "it" always seems to be, is more complicated than that.
-jj
-
This team is talentless. Thomas, Stienbach, Mack, Rogers, Cribbs. Outside of that, we not only have no talent, we don't have many NFL caliber players at all.
Outside of those 5 guys, not ONE player beat their guy on a single play yesterday. We are totally outmatched by every team in the league outside of Oakland and maybe KC. I don't know how Mangini is gonna do it this off-season but he is going to have to replace 30-40 players in a hurry. This team is a joke. Davis, Savage, RAC....F-YOU!!!
There is just no way you can scheme, coach, or gameplan with these players. You cannot ask them to do anything above fundamental football and expect any success. They are bad, really bad. It has got to be embarresing for the coaches knowing that each week another team is watching film on us getting prepared and seeing everything this team doesn't have.
We can't blame the coaches anymore. If you watch these players they are just getting beat on a down-by-down basis. Each and every one of them. Wimbley had Grant wrapped up with both arms and Grant just slipped out like he was coated in vaseline. How in the hell, at this level, do you let that happen? That is a microcosm of what this team doesn't do. Wright got punked again on TV. How many players do you think get punked every week like that guy does and have a job still? Is that coaching? Nope, is that scheme? Nope. Is that gameplan? Nope. That is what it looks like when you put bad players on the field in this league. Its a goddamned joke. I like DA but he looked like crap yesterday. He came out 5/5 and guys were catching it and then, he started forcing balls and leading defenders to his target before throwing it. That is not a coaching issue, they don't coach him to do that, thats not part of the gameplan, that is just a dumb QB.
My friend is a 10th grade English teacher and she said something once that applies here. She said that by the time students get to her they are way behind where they should be. So she has to go back and re-teach 7th grade material before she can even start the 10th grade material. I think that is where this team is right now. The difference is, this is the NFL and so you don't get time to coach up crappy players who are 2-5 years in the league, you just release them. And a lot of guys need to be gone.
BS. I totally blame Mangini for the way he's handled everything. He got rid of some good players. He's ultimately the one who's making the bad offense play calling by allowing Lewis to keep tip toeing up the gut and avg. 3 yds.
Watch how his players like Wright and Macdonald have given up on him. They weren't t his bad in prior years, Mangini is the reason. A coach needs to win over his players, and he never did that. He acts like a dictator with "my way or the highway" attitude. I'd guess players play bad on purpose so they can be traded or benched. He gets rid of good players in favor of mediocre subordinate players. All the really good players have attitudes these days, but it's no problem at all, WHEN YOURE WINNING!
He's been a hyporcite saying he's going to stick with the decision on the QB. Then he gave BQ a super short leash and didn't even give him all the players, in practice or the game! Terrible.
Yes they are in need of talent, but since we have threat receivers, why isn't more focus on the run? Harrison WITH Cribbs in the backfield AND QUINN who can scramble. With the little they have, they can do much more than they are.
Mangini is horrible and it's a waste for another 3 years.
BS. I totally blame Mangini for the way he's handled everything. He got rid of some good players.
Please name names.
-
This team is talentless. Thomas, Stienbach, Mack, Rogers, Cribbs. Outside of that, we not only have no talent, we don't have many NFL caliber players at all.
Outside of those 5 guys, not ONE player beat their guy on a single play yesterday. We are totally outmatched by every team in the league outside of Oakland and maybe KC. I don't know how Mangini is gonna do it this off-season but he is going to have to replace 30-40 players in a hurry. This team is a joke. Davis, Savage, RAC....F-YOU!!!
There is just no way you can scheme, coach, or gameplan with these players. You cannot ask them to do anything above fundamental football and expect any success. They are bad, really bad. It has got to be embarresing for the coaches knowing that each week another team is watching film on us getting prepared and seeing everything this team doesn't have.
We can't blame the coaches anymore. If you watch these players they are just getting beat on a down-by-down basis. Each and every one of them. Wimbley had Grant wrapped up with both arms and Grant just slipped out like he was coated in vaseline. How in the hell, at this level, do you let that happen? That is a microcosm of what this team doesn't do. Wright got punked again on TV. How many players do you think get punked every week like that guy does and have a job still? Is that coaching? Nope, is that scheme? Nope. Is that gameplan? Nope. That is what it looks like when you put bad players on the field in this league. Its a goddamned joke. I like DA but he looked like crap yesterday. He came out 5/5 and guys were catching it and then, he started forcing balls and leading defenders to his target before throwing it. That is not a coaching issue, they don't coach him to do that, thats not part of the gameplan, that is just a dumb QB.
My friend is a 10th grade English teacher and she said something once that applies here. She said that by the time students get to her they are way behind where they should be. So she has to go back and re-teach 7th grade material before she can even start the 10th grade material. I think that is where this team is right now. The difference is, this is the NFL and so you don't get time to coach up crappy players who are 2-5 years in the league, you just release them. And a lot of guys need to be gone.
BS. I totally blame Mangini for the way he's handled everything. He got rid of some good players. He's ultimately the one who's making the bad offense play calling by allowing Lewis to keep tip toeing up the gut and avg. 3 yds.
Watch how his players like Wright and Macdonald have given up on him. They weren't t his bad in prior years, Mangini is the reason. A coach needs to win over his players, and he never did that. He acts like a dictator with "my way or the highway" attitude. I'd guess players play bad on purpose so they can be traded or benched. He gets rid of good players in favor of mediocre subordinate players. All the really good players have attitudes these days, but it's no problem at all, WHEN YOURE WINNING!
He's been a hyporcite saying he's going to stick with the decision on the QB. Then he gave BQ a super short leash and didn't even give him all the players, in practice or the game! Terrible.
Yes they are in need of talent, but since we have threat receivers, why isn't more focus on the run? Harrison WITH Cribbs in the backfield AND QUINN who can scramble. With the little they have, they can do much more than they are.
Mangini is horrible and it's a waste for another 3 years.
BS. I totally blame Mangini for the way he's handled everything. He got rid of some good players. He's ultimately the one who's making the bad offense play calling by allowing Lewis to keep tip toeing up the gut and avg. 3 yds.
Watch how his players like Wright and Macdonald have given up on him. They weren't t his bad in prior years, Mangini is the reason. A coach needs to win over his players, and he never did that. He acts like a dictator with "my way or the highway" attitude. I'd guess players play bad on purpose so they can be traded or benched. He gets rid of good players in favor of mediocre subordinate players. All the really good players have attitudes these days, but it's no problem at all, WHEN YOURE WINNING!
He's been a hyporcite saying he's going to stick with the decision on the QB. Then he gave BQ a super short leash and didn't even give him all the players, in practice or the game! Terrible.
Yes they are in need of talent, but since we have threat receivers, why isn't more focus on the run? Harrison WITH Cribbs in the backfield AND QUINN who can scramble. With the little they have, they can do much more than they are.
Mangini is horrible and it's a waste for another 3 years.
Not the coaching??? This coach brought in all the jets players while trading down in the draft for a Center, traded two probowlers, not paying a third, says "i am comfortable with what I'm seeing on the field(with DA), Brought in 22 guys and we are atrocious team....He sucks at evaluating talent....and we are going to let the horrible talent evaluators waste our 11 draft picks in the most important draft since 99???/ Fk no....cut and run on this zero motivational coach...." Mangini..........."like what I'm seeing out there""??????? Any coach that says that after being 1-6 and having the worst QB in history on the field....doesn't deserve another moment in the NFL as a HC....
-
This team is talentless. Thomas, Stienbach, Mack, Rogers, Cribbs. Outside of that, we not only have no talent, we don't have many NFL caliber players at all.
Outside of those 5 guys, not ONE player beat their guy on a single play yesterday. We are totally outmatched by every team in the league outside of Oakland and maybe KC. I don't know how Mangini is gonna do it this off-season but he is going to have to replace 30-40 players in a hurry. This team is a joke. Davis, Savage, RAC....F-YOU!!!
There is just no way you can scheme, coach, or gameplan with these players. You cannot ask them to do anything above fundamental football and expect any success. They are bad, really bad. It has got to be embarresing for the coaches knowing that each week another team is watching film on us getting prepared and seeing everything this team doesn't have.
We can't blame the coaches anymore. If you watch these players they are just getting beat on a down-by-down basis. Each and every one of them. Wimbley had Grant wrapped up with both arms and Grant just slipped out like he was coated in vaseline. How in the hell, at this level, do you let that happen? That is a microcosm of what this team doesn't do. Wright got punked again on TV. How many players do you think get punked every week like that guy does and have a job still? Is that coaching? Nope, is that scheme? Nope. Is that gameplan? Nope. That is what it looks like when you put bad players on the field in this league. Its a goddamned joke. I like DA but he looked like crap yesterday. He came out 5/5 and guys were catching it and then, he started forcing balls and leading defenders to his target before throwing it. That is not a coaching issue, they don't coach him to do that, thats not part of the gameplan, that is just a dumb QB.
My friend is a 10th grade English teacher and she said something once that applies here. She said that by the time students get to her they are way behind where they should be. So she has to go back and re-teach 7th grade material before she can even start the 10th grade material. I think that is where this team is right now. The difference is, this is the NFL and so you don't get time to coach up crappy players who are 2-5 years in the league, you just release them. And a lot of guys need to be gone.
That argument is such a cop out. Let me say this loudly. THE BROWNS DO NOT HAVE A TALENT PROBLEM. They have a congruence problem. The difference in talent from the top team in the league to the bottom team in the league is negligible at best. Now, some teams have excesses in talent in particular places... and that can make a big difference. But, when measuring NFL teams one to another, overall talent is rarely the deciding factor. The number 1 separator of NFL teams is congruence. Does the scheme match the coaching, match the players, match the environment? That is congruence. Right now, the Browns are failing in all four facets.
So much of football is "want-to". How much do you want it? How hard are you playing? How much are you giving? And if there is dissonance between the scheme and the players skills, it hurts the "want-to". If there is dissonance between the coach's style and the player's psyche, it hurts the "want-to". Every ounce of dissent and disagreement between a coach and a player, a scheme and a player takes up space in the psyche. It compromises focus, slows reactions, and limit's the players "want-to".
Did you ever notice when the Pittsburgh Steelers play defense, how much fun it looks like their having? It's because they are. What they're being asked to do matches their desire to do it. It "fits". You get yourself a bunch of big badasses and borderline criminals who like to push people around, and let them play downhill and punch people in the mouth. It works. It fits. And interestingly, they don't miss in the draft too often. Why do you suppose that is? It's because they know what they're looking for. They're out at the college games looking for "Steelers". They're not looking at stopwatches, they're not looking for a safety, they're not looking for a guard... they're looking for Steelers. And they've been looking for they same guys for 40 years, and they're damn good at it.
The Browns, on the other hand, don't know what they are. Mangini seems to know what he is... but he might be the only one. No one else can seem to get a read on the guy. You go try to do your job at 100% when you're trying to figure out if your boss's boss is plotting to get rid of you. It's tough. Try to do your job when you don't understand it and you don't know why your being asked to do it... then measure your effort.
Eric Mangini is a whiz kid. He's a football scientist of the first (OK maybe second) order. The problem is, most football players are not. There aren't a lot of 1520 SAT's on the field on Sunday afternoon. (Ok, I know they don't use the 1600 pt scale anymore, but you know what I mean). So what you end up with is a football team comprised of players that lack the cognitive skill to function within the system they're being given. It's incongruous. It's like asking a group of politicians to balance a checkbook. Oh they can do it, but it's going to be wrong half the time -- and when it isn't, it's going to take way too long. It's just not what they're good at. They've got the wrong skills.
Eric Mangini was hired because he has a vision of how to build a winning franchise. And to Randy Lerner's credit, that is a solution to a team that has no identity of its own. Mangini sold him on the idea that "... this is what a Cleveland Brown will be..." It's a hypothetical based on the implementation of Mangini's system. And he might be right. But there is no way on heaven or on earth that he's going to achieve his vision with this roster. And it's not because they "lack talent". It's because it's not a fit.
Since 1999, the Browns have had only 2 types of coaches, replicators and pacifiers. Romeo Crennell and Chris Palmer were the latter, Davis and Mangini the former. Davis was a Jimmy Johnson clone, and a poor one at that. Mangini, of course, is a Belichick disciple. Crennell parlayed his role as the insulation between Coach Parcells and the players into his grandpa Ro' role with the Browns. You can do some things that way, but in the mid-run (something sooner than the long run), that lovey-dovey coaching style will lead to an overall lack of intensity. Palmer was a pacifier, but he just pacified ownership, the fans, and anyone else who knew less football than he did. Plus, Chris is a coach, he's not a politician. He should've never been put in that role. But that's another story.
In 2009, the Browns have two problems (really several, but there are two big ones): The Browns have settled on Eric Mangini, who brings with him a system that does not suit more than half of the guys on this roster.... way more than half. This is compounded by problem #2 which is that Mangini's system isn't a fit for 80% or 90% of the guys in the league. It takes a special group of players to pull it off. It's hard enough when you have a replicated philosophy, but when you have one with such unique demands, the pool of appropriate players shrivels up pretty rapidly.
Put it this way, the Patriots have gone through a decade of trial and error to find guys who can play their system. Their biggest success seems to be in finding 8-9 year vets to come in and contribute for 1 or 2 years before they call it a career. Why do you suppose that is? Because guys that have been in the league for a long time find it easier to assimilate the complexities of the Patriot system. They're already pros. But it takes a lot of trial and error to find those guys. Last I checked there were only 3 or 4 guys left from that first championship team on the current roster. They have to keep shuttling guys in and out to make it work. And it's hard to weed through all that.
So, let's agree that the Patriots have been patient and masterful at finding "Patriot-type guys" in the league. OK, now add a Browns roster and a Chiefs and a Broncos roster that are looking for the same "guys". You just went from 53 guys to 212 (not counting the practice squads). It's quite possible that the Patriots have demonstrated over the last 10 years that there may not be 200 "patriot-type" guys in the NFL in any given year... There may not be 100. Which means, you're going to have to make some. And that is going to take time... and lots of it.
Now I'll listen to the argument that says, don't implement the system at the ground floor if you don't have at least a functional roster. But I'll probably disagree. The other argument is you force the system, take your lumps, then clear out the guys who don't fit. That also has it's merits.. but my God is it ugly on the front end. Mangini had some early success with the Jets by installing a hybrid of his system to more closely match the players he had. But compensating for guys that didn't fit, ended up extending the growing pains though 2008. Midway through 2008 that Jets team was still evolving into what Mangini wanted them to be. By that time he'd compromised his vision so far that it nearly imploded on itself. He didn't know what to do with the guys he had, and they didn't know what to do for him. He wasn't about to make that mistake again. He's not about to compromise how he wants something done to suit the talent of the players he has. They will fit him, or he'll do without. The downside is, it looks idiotic on the surface... and beyond that, of course, it may not work.
So here you are. You're witnessing the demolition of a team. And it probably has to be done. The worst part is it's like watching someone tear down your childhood home. Even if you knew they were going to build a beautiful new one on the same spot, it still hurts to watch them tear it apart. Add to that that you have no idea whether or not Mangini's plan will ever come to fruition, and you've got cause for alarm. I'd love to tell you that it will all be alright. But I can't say that. I can say that if it does work, it won't come easy. And there may be 2 or 3 seasons in row that are kinda like this one.
Anyway, the point of all this is, don't hang it all on the players, on Phil Savage, on Randy Lerner... there's plenty of blame to go around. Some of these guys will work out here. Most of them won't. Many will find some success somewhere else. But as much as it feels good to point to one thing and say, "there, that's the source of my pain." It's just not that easy. It, as "it" always seems to be, is more complicated than that.
-jj
Anyway, the point of all this is, don't hang it all on the players, on Phil Savage, on Randy Lerner... there's plenty of blame to go around. Some of these guys will work out here. Most of them won't. Many will find some success somewhere else. But as much as it feels good to point to one thing and say, "there, that's the source of my pain." It's just not that easy. It, as "it" always seems to be, is more complicated than that.
-jj
Good post.
I would certainly challenge that anyone should install a system around the talent that Mangini inherited. Not that I think you advocate that. You don't put a band-aid on a compound fracture. This team was and is talent-starved. I don't accept that the talent gap between the Browns and say the Jets is not the size of the grand canyon. I honestly don't think that Wimbley or DQ starts as a LBer on any team in the AFC Central . . . and they were two of the best players he inherited. Wright and McDonald are perhaps the worst tandem of corners in the NFL. Would either play nickel for the Packers?
As a unit, I would rate only our defensive line as NFL average talent-wise. Not our QBs, not our RBs, not our TEs (even with Winslow), not our WR (even with Edwards), not our OL (it might be the second closest, but we have huge investments in Thomas, Steinbach and the draft investment in Mack to still fall short), not our LBers, not our safeties.
Opie mortgaged this team's future on a lot of draft picks used to acquire QBs, too high a picks used on one-season wonders like Wimbley and Edwards, trade ups for the likes of Quinn, Wright, Rucker and Bell and misses like Sowells, and the third round receiver from Oklahoma who is so irrelevant that I can't even remember his name at the time. He also had a penchant for drafting anyone (Except for AD) from oklahoma and too-small DB-types that could kinda return kicks. And then there's the draft picks to acquire ill-fitting pieces such as Williams and Dilfer.
I'm trying to think of one of his picks other than Edwards that is contributing anywhere in the NFL. Jason Wright?
That's the difference between the top teams and this one. It's more than congruence.
A great coach knows how to hide a weakness and how to leverage a strength. But you can't hide every position group and on this team what exactly is the strength you exploit?
-
@ JJ....you say............"In 2009, the Browns have two problems (really several, but there are two big ones): The Browns have settled on Eric Mangini, who brings with him a system that does not suit more than half of the guys on this roster.... way more than half. This is compounded by problem #2 which is that Mangini's system isn't a fit for 80% or 90% of the guys in the league. It takes a special group of players to pull it off. It's hard enough when you have a replicated philosophy, but when you have one with such unique demands, the pool of appropriate players shrivels up pretty rapidly....."
I agree we settled on Mangini and thats the problem and 2, I believe and always have that if you are a good coach you adapt your 'system" around your players strengths....a fluid system that accentuates your strengths and disguises your weakness'....NOT "this is my system " I'm right, If you can't play in it you are gone mentality....we've seen it before in Cleveland...ala 180 pound metcalf up the middle....we should have been scheming plays around metcalf's strengths not making metcalf conform to the scheme....many many many examples such as this but MY SYSTEM is the only way to go bullshit is egomaniacal and a horrible way to coach IMO....Especially in the beginning and even when your vision is in place....water is stronger than rock!
-
@ JJ....you say............"In 2009, the Browns have two problems (really several, but there are two big ones): The Browns have settled on Eric Mangini, who brings with him a system that does not suit more than half of the guys on this roster.... way more than half. This is compounded by problem #2 which is that Mangini's system isn't a fit for 80% or 90% of the guys in the league. It takes a special group of players to pull it off. It's hard enough when you have a replicated philosophy, but when you have one with such unique demands, the pool of appropriate players shrivels up pretty rapidly....."
I agree we settled on Mangini and thats the problem and 2, I believe and always have that if you are a good coach you adapt your 'system" around your players strengths....a fluid system that accentuates your strengths and disguises your weakness'....NOT "this is my system " I'm right, If you can't play in it you are gone mentality....we've seen it before in Cleveland...ala 180 pound metcalf up the middle....we should have been scheming plays around metcalf's strengths not making metcalf conform to the scheme....many many many examples such as this but MY SYSTEM is the only way to go bullshit is egomaniacal and a horrible way to coach IMO....Especially in the beginning and even when your vision is in place....water is stronger than rock!
I agree we settled on Mangini and thats the problem ......
I think a lot of you people are delusional who think Gruden or Shanahan or Cowher were lining up to take this job or will line up to take this job if Mangini gets shit-canned.
The roster was a joke. And Cleveland is not exactly the most desirable NFL city to set up shop. Any three of those guys can sit in studio jobs until the perfect situation comes around. Like Carolina (Cowher) or Jacksonville (Gruden). Shanahan is getting paid a ton NOT to coach! He has a tremendous ego, but he's also smart enough to realize he's got a clearer path in Washington in a city more suitable to his tastes.
Nobody who has options is going to select THIS Job.
It was Mangini or a first-time head coach who wasn't a hot candidate (like Crennel) or a college guy. And we aren't talking Urban Meyer.
Hello! It looks like you're interested in this conversation, but you don't have an account yet.
Getting fed up of having to scroll through the same posts each visit? When you register for an account, you'll always come back to exactly where you were before, and choose to be notified of new replies (either via email, or push notification). You'll also be able to save bookmarks and upvote posts to show your appreciation to other community members.
With your input, this post could be even better 💗
Register Login