Sorry, I missed your post yesterday.

@ballpeen said:

I admire your passion York, but if a move actually hits the plate as reality, the NFL or a court of law isn't going to stop it.

Why not? Even the mayor (Gavin Newsom) has said they could file a lawsuit and take away the San Francisco part and they would win. But that would only be a hollow win. The debate is who has the right to the history and legacy.

The only thing that will stop it is if SF puts together a stadium package/tax package that is comparable to what is being offered 30 miles south.

There is a stadium package. It's even bigger than that. It's a total remodeling of the Hunter's Point naval base with housing, malls, green industries and of course a waterfront stadium. All that is in place and passed by voters in th city twice. In 1997 and 2006.

How old is the stadium the Niners play in....I really don't know, but if it is older than maybe 15 years, stadium designs have really changed and owners need to be able to get as many private boxes as possible.

It's the old SF Giants home from 1960 and the Niners moved there from Kezar Stadium in 1971. That shouldn't really be a factor in the debate since the Packers play at Lambeau Field opened in 1957.

The template you see in new stadiums is the template that will be used for the next 40 years....so you need to get moving with that.

If you would look at the proposed designs of the Santa Clara stadium you would see how cheap it looks. It looks even cheaper than the Jaguars stadium...

The city needs to find a location large enough to fund a new stadium....or use the existing site and for 3-4 years work a deal with Stanford to use their stadium while your new facility is being razed and rebuilt.

See my answer above. The Niners will play at Candlestick Park until 2013-2014. And they could probably extend that by 1-2 years while Hunter's Point is being cleaned up.

This one, also from the Plain Dealer, looks interesting...

'LAWYERS'LAST RESORT NOT LEAST, BUT LEASE

Author: MARK ROLLENHAGEN PLAIN DEALER REPORTER

Date: February 4, 1996

Publication: Plain Dealer, The (Cleveland, OH)

Page: 10A

It was a last resort when lawyers hired by the city decided to read the lease that had allowed the Browns to play in the Stadium for the past 22 years.

Asked by Mayor Michael R. White to come up with a viable lawsuit to keep the Browns from moving to Baltimore, a team of lawyers from Squire, Sanders and Dempsey had spent the weekend of Nov. 4 reading cases in which other cities used various legal claims to try to block a team move.

"It was not fun reading,".'

Or this one...

'CITY, NFL NEAR DEAL THAT LETS BROWNS GO NAME, COLORS WOULD STAY; A NEW TEAM PROMISED

Author: STEPHEN KOFF, TONY GROSSI and TIMOTHY HEIDER PLAIN DEALER REPORTERS

Date: February 8, 1996

Publication: Plain Dealer, The (Cleveland, OH)

Page: 1A

Mayor Michael R. White is to arrive in Chicago today possibly to help finalize a deal that could allow the Browns to move to Baltimore, if Cleveland would be guaranteed a football team upon completion of a new stadium.

Intensive negotiations to keep NFL football in Cleveland continued on the eve of a league owners'meeting, but the framework of a deal appeared to be developing late last night and early this morning.

A source close to the negotiations said the framework...'

The Akron Beacon Journal was a no go as they only have a searchable online archive back to 2001.

Although this looks like something interesting from The Cleveland Plan Dealer...

BROWNS OR NOTHING: DON'T STEAL A TEAM

'Author: JOE DIRCK

Date: December 10, 1995

Publication: Plain Dealer, The (Cleveland, OH)

Page: 1B

The hot rumor du jour last week had the Tampa Bay Buccaneers moving to Cleveland and becoming the Browns, with the ex-Browns moving to Baltimore and becoming the Buccaneers. Or something like that.

It's getting hard to keep all this straight. Let's see - first it was the Bengals moving here and calling themselves the Browns; then it was the Seahawks who supposedly were on their way.

And now Tampa Bay. Little more than a month has passed since the...'

And then you have to pay for the rest.

Anybody remember this one?

@roach said:

Fumble! by Michael Poplar is an excellent book on the Browns and the events leading up to Modell's move of the team. Poplar worked for Modell as vice president/treasurer of the Stadium Corp from 1975 to 1996. The book provides an insider's view of the blunders of Modell and city officials/politicians that resulted in the move to Baltimore.

It does not cover the specific topic of how the NFL was petitioned to get our team back, but it is a great read for those interested in Browns history.

Thank you too! Most of you guys really came up big today. I'm going to digest all good advices over the next few weeks. Keep your fingers crossed for the Niners because we're in deep trouble.

THANK YOU!

I basicly have nothing to add. Most of you guys seem knowledable enough in this discussion about the club that is your twin in football history. 1946 is OUR year. It's the year we were born. If you care you could help by stating what it is to almost lose your team. You can voice your opinion. You can state it here. Guess you have to register...

http://forums.49ers.com/messageboard/forumdisplay.php?f=26

I thank you all for the advices and discussions here today and I hope you all keep at least some space in your hearts for the San Francisco 49ers and the future of this ball clube. We are tied at the waste by history and by Ohio. Please understand our struggle as we understood yours.

@thaak said:

Because those "lined pockets" also pay the salaries of all your coaches and players.

But screw the coaches and players. They are no good. It's been downhill for the Niners since Mariucci was fired by John York. This current organization might win the NFC West, TOPS! And that's only because Kurt Warner will retire. Imagine how pathetic...being held up by Kurt Warner, a 39 year old. Few actually care.

@bob806 said:

The book "False Start" by Terry Pluto is the best source on the move...and depressing.

I grew up less than 4 miles from Municipal Stadium, I know what you are thinking. The Niners should play temporarily in Berkley or Oakland after blowing up Candlestick & rebuilding.

Thanks man! I appreciate it.

@the-gipper said:

You have got to be kidding me. Asking for legal advice like that on an open forum? I should charge you!

Nevertheless, I will give you a nickel's worth of free advice:

1. The first thing you have to have is standing to file a lawsuit. It doesn't matter how many people are involved. The City of Cleveland had a written lease agreement signed by the Cleveland Browns and Art Modell with the City as the other signatory to the contract. Do YOU or anyone you know have a written contract signed between yourself and the Yorks which obligates them to play their games inside the city limits of San Francisco.

If you don't have that your lawsuit papers can be put to better use lining a birdcage.

That's where the shoe doesn't fit. No one really knows, not officially at least, how long the lease actually, goes. Some say 2013, some say 2014, some say 2016 and some say only Al Davis knows the truth since the time he helped the widows of Tony and Vic Morabito to find new owners of the Niners (late 70s) and found the DeBartolo's from Youngstown, Ohio. Some of Al's partners wanted tp buy the Niners at the time but the Morabito widows suggested a six-figure finders fee to Al if he could find them some new owners.

2. WTF are you talking about filing it outside the US? It would carry NO weight being filed outside the US. It has to be filed in the jurisdiction that is the situs of the action. On what planet did you come up with that question.

I meant filing at the appropriate place from outside the US. Not filing it outside of the US.

3. The NFL's intervention in the Browns case was to serve as a facilitor to come up with a negotiated settlement. The final settlement to keep the Browns franchise in Cleveland together with its history etc. to be reactivated in a few years, to grant a new franchise to Baltimore and Modell, and to let him then take his jock straps and toilet seat with him was massaged through back and forth talks designed to keep the case OUT of the court and a trial. It had nothing to do with setting any kind of priority on the court's docket.

I understand what you're saying but the lawsuits had to be a leverage to keep this case outside of the court, right? The hassel to go through all the lawsuits would be too costly and would just stall Modell's final get go to found the Baltimore Ravens. So theoretically speaking, the more you involve the courts, the more the NFL and the Yorks will be pissed? It will stall their plans, right?

Sorry kid, you are grasping at straws. Stay the F*** out of the court's. If anyone is going to file a suit, leave it to the City of San Francisco. Unless YOU are the Mayor of San Francisco, stay out of it. Your best bet: Have the city of San Francisco build a new Stadium for the Niners. And put a lot of cash in the York's pocket. That is how you will keep them inside San Fran proper.

Otherwise, you can go get signatures protesting the Niners move. Then go get that birdcage and put your petition there.

But the Yorks don't want to listen. The city of San Francisco passed a vote twice to build a new stadium. In 1997 and in 2006 when Lennar was given the go ahead to remodel Hunter's Point. They Yorks have pushed on with their agenda. Why should the city line the pockets of a family that lucked into the ownership of the Niners when Eddie DeBartolo Jr. was stripped of it? Why?

@thaak said:

No problem at all. As long as they are the Cleveland Browns and still in the Cleveland Media Market, I'm ok with whereever they want to put their stadium.

OK, fine. Who am I to argue with you?

Baltimore has everything to do with this conversation. Because the move to Baltimore is moving to an entirely different market. The two situations are not even close to being the same.

So what you're saying is that 'market and 'distance' are factors more important than 'history' and 'legacy' only because someone with power says so?

I didn't acknowledge distance is irrelevant. I said it was entirely relevant as regards the difference between Santa Clara/San Francisco and Cleveland/Baltimore.

It IS irrelevant because Ohio is not California and especially not NorCal! Can you get to another state if you travel some 40 miles?

Fair enough, but just because the Bay Area is a unique situation, does not mean that you guys get to lump this situation in with the Browns in 1995. Not close to the same situation.

I'm not lumping it together. I'm asking for some help and advice. That's why I came here, to share my views. I can see a lot of similarities that can and should be exploited. No offense!

Because the situation is not the same. It isn't a town rich in football history losing its team to another completely different media market for no other reason than Modell was a weenie. Why would Goodell stand in your corner, when he is actually advocating a new stadium in Santa Clara as a way for the 49'ers to get a new stadium. He actually is advocating the 49'ers and Raiders share a stadium. You won't have his support.

San Francisco is rich in pioneering. The 49ers were the first Pro sports team in California. Tony Morabito, when shot down by the NFL at time, didn't give up. Besides, just because Goodell gives his support to the Yorks and Santa Clara doesn't mean he can't stand in San Francisco's corner and say "Yes, you do have a point".

Further, if whatever entity (Stadium Commission) owns/operates the stadium and owns the stadium contract with the 49'ers is working in tandem with the team and the "Bay Area" to build a new stadium, then there won't be any legal issues. They will write a new contract between them that voids the old one. And the public really has no say in it.

Modell broke his contract with the City and the Stadium, and the City and Stadium had a new plan for Modell. Modell just decided to up and leave.

All cities have a say in it if another city/state wants to you their name. Some don't matter like New Jersey doesn't matter the Giants and the Jets call themselves New York. But that's their choice and not a rule. The city of San Francisco should easily be able to say that if they want the team they have to change their name.

I get the feeling that you are a high school or college student without your own vehicle or without a ton of money for gasoline, and you use public transportation, which is convenient for you to see the 49'ers in San Francisco when you want to. But driving to Santa Clara presents difficulty for you, and so you want to raise a stink.

Not so. I'm 33 years old. I'm a business owner living 6 months a year outside of the USA.

I get that the "Bay Area" has a unique situation in that Oakland also has a team. So local perception makes it feel like moving to Santa Clara is losing your team to another city.

The Oakland Raiders have nothing to do with it. This about the history and legacy of the Niners.

But the fact is, you are not losing your team to another city. When the difference is 38 miles, its not a loss. If they call themselves the San Francisco 49ers, and it takes you about 90 minutes or less (traffic may delay further) to get to the stadium, and the stadium is still in the San Francisco media market, you didn't lose your team.

Yes we are. We are losing the team down to greed. It's a different city anyway you slice it.

I didn't want this kind of discussion.

@diehardbrownsfan said:

35 miles is nothing to get upset about. I think your cause will die because it just dosen't have a leg to stand on. You don't actually think that if they move to Santa Clara that you would be able to get another team in SF? So have one in Oakland, one in SF and one in Santa Clara? Never happen.

No, I don't think we would get a new team ASAP. We probably would be inactive more than three years (until the next expansion). Fine! Better that than to lose the roots of what Tony and Vic Morabito founded in 1946.

But I did think you guys would understand that most of us would rather be inactive than to move away from the city.

@the-gipper said:

How were the lawsuits filed? As an attorney I can answer that question: they were handwritten or dictated, then given to a secretary to type. They were reviewed for completeness and typos. They were then copied. The original and the copies were then probably hand delivered by a law clerk to the Cuyahoga County Common Pleas Court where they were all time stamped and the filing fee paid. Then the Clerk of Court delivered them by certified mail to the named defendants.

(perhaps you may wish to rephrase your question?) If you want to see the actual case itself, you can search this link:

http://coc.cuyahogacounty.us/

Though, to be honest, I have looked and don't find the case in there. It may have been filed in Federal Court.

The Gipper

My luck! I've stumbled across a lawman. YES!!!

So all that has to be done, in reality, is to file a lawsuit within the city limits of San Francisco against the Yorks (should measure J pass on june 8th) at any given county under the jurisdiction of the city of San Francisco, right? And all you need to do is pay a filing fee to get the lawsuit into the legal system.

A couple of follow up question...

1. Would a lawsuit like that carry more weight if more people would sign it or would multiple lawsuits filed under only one name be a better strategy?

2. Can lawsuits, in this case, be filed outside of the USA? If yes, will they carry the same weight?

3. Did the intervention of the NFL, at this stage (during the filing of the lawsuits), help bringing this up in priority in the courts around Cleveland (or was it just the Cuyahoga County Common Pleas Court)?

@thaak said:

Um… no. If the alternatives were the Baltimore Browns or the Cleveland Browns playing out of Berea or Akron, I’d take the Cleveland Browns every time.

OK, but imagine Modell never moving the roster to Baltimore and 'THE move' would be moving the Cleveland Browns to Berea or staying in the city of Cleveland. Don't bring Baltimore into this. Would you accept the Cleveland Browns playing outside of the city for no good reason except a greedy owner family?

I think part of most of our confusion with your question doesn’t have much to do with actual distance, but rather the fact that you are acting hurt, heartbroken, like you might lose your team. And we are trying to tell you that you aren’t. There is no reason to be up in arms about this, because you aren’t losing your home team. It isn’t even close to be similar to the Browns becoming the Baltimore Browns.

I'm not confused! Since you acknowledged that the distance is irrelevant then why can't you understand that the Niners belong in SF as much as you guys belong in Cleveland. We're both founded in 1946 by people founding the teams where they did for a reason. You had a three-year inactivity and kept all your history. I'll take that, and many along with me, compared to forever moving outside of the city limits. You have to acknowledge that this means A LOT to thousands of fans.

Now, trying to be understanding here, a Bay Area resident’s perception of “home team” may be a bit different considering that in at least two sports (NFL and MLB) both Oakland and San Francisco have a team. So being that the proximity is so close, it may feel like you are losing your beloved 49er’s to a rival city. I get that.

The 'Bay Area' is something America has invented to lump all of NorCal together. But it doesn't work like that. For instance, there's a rivalry between the Niners and the Raiders even though we almost never play each other during the regular season. But fans hate each other on the same level as you and Steeler fans, and you play each other...

But you aren’t. The NFL will laugh at any potential lawsuit here. Lawyers and Judges too I’ll bet. Ask Gipper what his feelings would be as a magistrate.

If there is a legal case then nobody will laugh. Why shouldn't Goodell stand in our corner like Taglibue did in yours?

Additionally, as a Browns fan (and I’m assuming Baltimore Colts, Dallas Texans, Los Angeles Rams, Los Angeles Raiders, Oakland Raiders, St. Louis Cardinals, et. al) would be at least mildly insulted that you would equate a stadium in Santa Clara to their plights.

But that's their loss for not caring enough, not ours. You survived. You withstood. I admire you for that but so will we. Why should fans who ended up saving their teams be lumped together with the history of teams that didn't have the same support? Should caring more about your team be treated as something unnecessary? The only thing we differ in is the distance of some 300+ miles. But they still want to change cities.

I would like to thank you for the info I've got so far (escpecially from The Gipper).

So I'll look up...

* The Cleveland Plain Dealer

* The Akron Beacon Journal

* Books published

* ESPN special on Art Modell

And also...

* An unbreakable lease (I think that's actually a fact with Al Davis having some interesting papers from back when he dealt with the Morabito widows when finding new owners for the Niners).

Afterall we are both founder members of the AAFC and we share a lot of history and as it seems a fight to keep our teams where they belong.

You can check out the debate over at SF49ers.com and add your opinions on what it's like almost losing your team.

http://forums.49ers.com/messageboard/forumdisplay.php?f=26

How were the lawsuits filed by the way?

@the-gipper said:

The "city of San Francisco" don't mean dick. Did you see the list I gave of those other teams that don't play inside their cities limits? Perhaps you are too young to remember, but the San Francisco Warriors played in the Cow Palace....in Daly City...which is contiguous to Frisco (yes, I know, you don't like it called that).

In your view would that be wrong? What if the Niners moved to Daly city?

I know all that. I didn't come here to have a discussion with Browns fans about distances. I just wanted to know some facts about your experience of a move. You gave me some info in your previous post. Thank you!

To me, the only person who REALLY should care if the team is actually inside the SF city limits is the SF City Treasurer, as the city they are located in gets the income tax revenue. Are you that person?

Another example: The Browns actually spend all of about 24 hours of their work year inside the City of Cleveland. The three hours of their 8 home games a year. The other 1900 hours or so of their year is spent in the City of Berea where their offices and training facilities are located. Should we be upset that those offices and facilities are not inside the Cleveland City limits? No one here seems to care.

The 49ers headquarters are located in Santa Clara and have been for some decades. That's not the point. Wouldn't you be upset if your current owners would move the games to Berea?

@the-gipper said:

I am not going to get into the whole history of the attempted Modell move. It would take hours to give you the whole scoop. The only thing I would suggest is that you search the Cleveland Plain Dealer or Akron Beacon Journal archives for various articles. I also believe there has been a book or two published about that episode. Perhaps by Terry Pluto.

Thanks!

@thaak said:

Um, I'm sure they will keep the history and colors. Santa Clara is only 38.6 miles from San Francisco, and probably considered part of the Greater Metropolitan Bay area.

But more specific to your question, the city of Cleveland proved they had a plan to build a new stadium and such, and Modell simply moved for more money. Besides, with the best/biggest fan base in the NFL, the NFL was actually intimated.

The distance is irrelevant. They still want to move the team outside of the city of San Francisco to another city and still call it the San Francisco 49ers. 38.6 miles or 360 miles doesn't matter.

The city of San Francisco also have a plan of building a new stadium at Hunter's Point.

I'm still hoping someone would be kind enough to give a run down of the events in 1995.

Hello,

Could someone give me a run down of how you managed to keep your team's history and legacy in Cleveland when Modell moved the roster to Baltimore? Or just point me in the right direction to an in-dept article from back then. Something more than wikipedia or what you find with Google. I admire how Cleveland managed to keep the city's team where it belongs.

How did it all start once he made it official he would go through with it? Where do you file lawsuits and how did it come to that being the best way? How did Paul Taglibue and the NFL comission get involved and what made them back the fans and the city of Cleveland's standpoint? What made your struggle against Modell victorious in the end? Did the city of Cleveland have any aces or tricks up their sleeve that prevented Modell to move everything to Baltimore? What advice would you give to Niner fans?

You know that the current owners of the San Francisco 49ers, the Yorks, want to relocate the team to Santa Clara, CA if a measure is passed by the voters of Santa Clara in june? Thousands of Niner fans are upset of the possibility of being robbed of their team. We might go through the same thing you guys did back in 1995. The Yorks can move the team but they can't be allowed to move the history, the legacy, the team colors and the logo outside the city limits.

Inactivity is better than being robbed of your team.

Thanks in advance.