Well, aren't you charming. I'm sure that's everyone's takeaway from this little exchange.

I'm not going to argue whether or not this "shit" is "all over football." My point was it is not normal, nor nearly as pervasive as some, including yourself, would have you believe.

Further, my point is, there's no place for it in the modern game.

"I guarantee that just about every team in the NFL had something similar running before this."

Hit pools, and game pools have been a part of the NFL as long as there's been an NFL. But that brings up two points...

1.) There's a big difference between a hit pool which rewards big plays, and the premeditated intent to injure.

2.) Just because it has been a part of the game, doesn't mean it should be.

"...the only thing Williams did wrong was give money to players for causing injuries. It was actually LEGAL for him to call out players injuries and instruct his players to go after them it just waste legal to pay them afterwards."

You're walking a line between two points... are you challenging whether or not what Williams did was "wrong," or "LEGAL"? The two words aren't diametrically opposed. Not everything that is wrong is illegal, and not everything that is legal is right.

Even so, I'd argue that what Gregg Williams did outside of the payment of money was not only wrong, but illegal... in terms of NFL rules, if not local laws and statutes and society in general. But those points rely on a moral code that you and I obviously disagree on. So be it.

But the point on which we may agree, is that it doesn't help you win. It doesn't make you a better player. It doesn't matter how many players you injure, how many ankles you twist in a pile. What matters is the scoreboard. If I can get 11 guys to play with passion, in unison... one goal, one unit, all that other stuff is schoolyard bullshit. You know what's intimidating? Giving up 17 yards on the ground for 4 quarters, putting 55 on the board in a half. That's intimidating.

What you're describing happens - and I'm not trying to be inflammatory here - far more frequently in substandard programs. It happens where teams are at a direct organizational, strategic, or competitive disadvantage.

This is why it has no place in the NFL. In the NFL, nobody's at a disadvantage. These are the best 1600 players in the world. Nothing about this belongs here. And if it doesn't belong in the NFL where it's truly pay for performance - perform to survive, then it absolutely doesn't belong at lower levels.

And what's worse, is left unchecked, it will eventually choke the game out of existence. Every concussion, every injury, and every fucking rah rah speech from a sadist goon that gets recorded, the more parents steer their kids away from our game. Without kids, we have no game.

I take my role as a coach very seriously. And that comes with responsibilities. Part of those responsibilities is to preserve the game itself. And we can't preserve the game if we cannot protect the people who play it. Injuries are an unfortunate byproduct of a violent game. They are never to be an intended outcome. If you allow this kind of benchmark, this kind of scenario, where the injury is the stated goal, instead of the accidental consequence, it'll be the death knell for this game.

So you can call me what you want. I'm entirely comfortable with who I am, how I coach, and the results I get. But, I won't abide someone trying to destroy the my game.

-jj

Congratulations. You're well on your way to being a sociopath.

Food for thought... Football is a game. When played properly, it's a lot of fun. I'm not sure what you're describing, but it's not football. I'm sure you enjoy it though.

-jj

@harry-buffalo said:

-1000

I always find it funny that on these boards when someone disagree's with someone they are always seem to have the "experience" and the "job" that should prove people wrong. Not calling you a lair in particular but a lot of people on this board are full of shit. Now I have 9 years of looker room experience and I I have several classes with players at BG and lived across from a suite of 6 of them last year. Out of those 9 years of playing football (peewee through high school) there were only two years were we were not encouraged to aim for peoples injuries or weak spots. Those two years were during Jr. High and our coach then was more interested in telling us to just run some laps so he could run of to the woods to smoke a joint than he was in actually coaching us.

My junior year after my second concussion my coaches were talking about getting me this juggernaut helmet, which was like an extra shell on top of the helmet that we always say these two kids where when we played another team. But we decided against it because all everyone did against those kids were go for head shots, so I just got a modified interior to the helmet.

One year when we were walking into a visiting locker room underneath bleachers and guy from the other teams student section started spitting on us. We had to hold one of our coaches back to keep him from running up there. We figured out who the guy was since our towns were in the same county and a lot of people from our schools knew each other and we found out he joined the football team the next season. I goes without saying our coach told us to make that game hell for him. We were bad with it. Punching soft spots and twisting joints in the pile. At one point one of my friends was jogging behind him down the field and he just straight kidney punched him in front of our sideline and dropped him like a sack of potatoes.

The worst one was when we played Coldwater my Junior year. This is the team the produced the Homan brothers for Ohio State. They always beet the shit out of us and their players were pompous assholes. There was a kid playing DT in the gap between two of my best friends who played Center and RG while I played RT. The kid was garbage and was running his mouth (most of their DL was garbage but when you have Adam Homan at MLB it doesn't really matter). Everytime he would get pancaked he would get up and just start going "Score board!". Well in the huddle I hear my friend at C talking to my friend at RG. Next play we get stopped at the line against but I see this kid at DT waddle off the field crying and my two friends high fiving. The kid never came back out the play the rest of the game. In the locker room my friend at C (who was a captain btw) told me that him and RG double teamed him and knocked him flat on his back and the both grabbed on of his arms and started twists/bending them. My friend who played C put so much pressure on the guys right arm that he literally snapped it and we know he broke his arm because we ran into the guy 6 months later during the county fair and he was talking about the game and how someone broke his arm in a pile (he didn't recognize who did it)

As far with players at BG, I've talked to them about up and coming games and I have talked to some of the DL in particular and they have mentioned gunning for injuries. I know a guy who purposely went head hunting on WR's before they made the rule in college more strict.

So you might have had experience where you never have seen anyone coach to injure, but I sure as hell have and especially with my high school coaches I respect the hell out of them.

When I say I have 20 years of experience, I mean as a coach. At the college, high school, and junior high school levels. And your recollection of your football career is vomit-inducing... just for the record.

"Out of those 9 years of playing football (peewee through high school) there were only two years were we were not encouraged to aim for peoples injuries or weak spots."

A peewee football coach that coaches a child to further injure an already injured child is a criminal, not a football coach. I don't know what kind of redneck hamlet you come from, but not one of those people should be around children.

"My junior year after my second concussion my coaches were talking about getting me this juggernaut helmet, which was like an extra shell on top of the helmet that we always say these two kids where when we played another team. But we decided against it because all everyone did against those kids were go for head shots, so I just got a modified interior to the helmet."

Unless your junior year of high school was 20+ years ago, your coaches are idiots. You can't protect a concussed players brain from banging against the interior of his own skull by modifying the helmet. He sits till he's cleared. We've been preaching that in the OHSAA for at least a decade.

"One year when we were walking into a visiting locker room underneath bleachers and guy from the other teams student section started spitting on us. We had to hold one of our coaches back to keep him from running up there. We figured out who the guy was since our towns were in the same county and a lot of people from our schools knew each other and we found out he joined the football team the next season. I goes without saying our coach told us to make that game hell for him. We were bad with it. Punching soft spots and twisting joints in the pile. At one point one of my friends was jogging behind him down the field and he just straight kidney punched him in front of our sideline and dropped him like a sack of potatoes."

Class move. I don't know about your coach, but my players don't use my field to settle their personal business. And I'm sorry, believe me or not, but the second I saw that kidney punch on film would be your friend's last second on my football team. I'm not about to compromise my reputation, my school's reputation, or the safety of the other 60 kids on the team because one braindead tool has some score to settle with another braindead tool. Coaching jobs don't last forever, and you might always need another one.

"Well in the huddle I hear my friend at C talking to my friend at RG. Next play we get stopped at the line against but I see this kid at DT waddle off the field crying and my two friends high fiving. The kid never came back out the play the rest of the game. In the locker room my friend at C (who was a captain btw) told me that him and RG double teamed him and knocked him flat on his back and the both grabbed on of his arms and started twists/bending them. My friend who played C put so much pressure on the guys right arm that he literally snapped it and we know he broke his arm because we ran into the guy 6 months later during the county fair and he was talking about the game and how someone broke his arm in a pile (he didn't recognize who did it)"

Your friends are mindless thugs who don't belong on a football field. I would hope I'm not the first one to say so. Either you're full of shit, or the Coldwater coaching staff - many of whom I'm familiar with - missed it on the film. And somehow, that kid told no one how he managed to end up with a broken arm. When shit like that happens, people get fired. Programs get disbanded. You don't think that kid knew what happened to him? What do you think we talk about at league meetings and OHSAA clinics? Do you think someone didn't walk up to your coach with a copy of the game film and say "What the fuck are you teaching these kids?" It happens all the time.

I get calls from the head of officials if we have too many personal fouls in a game. I'm pretty sure someone noticed the deliberate snapping of a forearm.

"As far with players at BG, I've talked to them about up and coming games and I have talked to some of the DL in particular and they have mentioned gunning for injuries. I know a guy who purposely went head hunting on WR's before they made the rule in college more strict."

That is the first thing you've said that doesn't surprise me at all. Of course that's true. Young players, especially those at lower level programs, resort to all sorts of tactics to stick. What most of them don't realize, is they're not making a name for themselves. They're just wallowing around putting a bunch of bush league crap on tape that no NFL scout will ever bother to watch.

Even so, I'm all for challenging a guy's ability to play at 100% coming off injury. I've said as much. But the attempt to re-injure? Well that's between you and your maker. Headhunting safeties are a dime a dozen. Usually, they can't play... so they resort to intimidation. At the mid-major level, these are usually guys too small to be linebackers and too slow to be corners, holding a spot until they can get a legit safety who understands and can play the position. Sometimes you go with what gifts you have - limited as they may be. But, in my world, you will play within the rules of the game. If you can't, you can't play for me. It's that simple.

"So you might have had experience where you never have seen anyone coach to injure, but I sure as hell have and especially with my high school coaches I respect the hell out of them."

I don't know who coached you, or what they said. But I have a pretty good idea of what you heard, and it was exactly what you wanted to hear. I'm really sorry that your football experience turned out the way it did. It obviously cost you a part of your basic human empathy. And it should never come to that. Your coaches did you no favors. And I hope that sinks in for you some day.

-jj

I'm sorry guys, but I've been around locker rooms at all levels for 20+ years, and that is not "common" or "normal". And brownfish, I want you to see a psychologist... Or the inside of a Dale Carnegie class. I've been hiring and training salespeople for almost as long, and you wouldn't last five minutes in my world.

In the interest of Gregg Williams, I reiterate, this is not normal. Quality coaches can build emotion through opportunity, excellence through execution. Williams approach is asinine. He's a sadist who believes that fear and intimidation breeds respect. It doesn't. You're not intimidating anyone at the NFL level.

All I hear when I hear a brainless Neanderthal like Williams speak is 'my guys, my scheme aren't good enough to beat your best eleven. So we have to get rid of some of them so we can play against the backups.'

Now, do you read the injury report to see if a guy is 100%? Absolutely. If I find a tackle with a sore knee, I'm going to make him move... See what he can do. But I don't need to hurt him. If I've got a guy coming off a concussion, I don't want to give him space to get comfortable. I want to force him to play fast, play in traffic, force contact. I'm not trying to hurt him. But guys coming off concussions tend to be tentative, and tentative guys make mistakes when forced to play fast and physical.

I mean, is Williams so afraid of Alex Smith, that he has to try to get him out of the game? Really? Is your team that bad? We're talking about Alex Smith here.

This guy is a gangrenous limb on football, and needs to be amputated, not treated. If Roger Goodell is the guy I think he is, Gregg Williams will never see the inside of an NFL locker room ever again.

-jj

You have to take a look at Thomas Mayo out of Cal-Penn. He's probably my favorite lower round prospect in the draft.

-jj

Martin fumbled eight times in 50 games, and lost 6 of them. It's something he's going to have to work on. He's a very active runner with a lot of body motion. This tends to lead to difficulties in ball security.

-jj

@mike-h said:

1.) First off, Griffin is not a complete player. You, like a lot of other people bought into his hype as soon as it began. The guy has a strong arm and can make some really good throws but he isn't an proven NFL caliber player until he steps on the field and proves it.

2.) Tannehill was a converted WR and with not even 2 complete seasons. I never said he was a BETTER player right now than RGIII. But the fact that you would be willing to give up 3 first round picks and a second for RGIII speaks volumes about you and what your motives are. You backed RGIII, now, when he fails to live up to the gigantic expectations on him, come back to this post and eat some crow.

Tannehill may not be able to make every throw, but neither can Colt McCoy or RGIII.

"Doesn't _regularly_ hit in stride." I guess you have some data to back that up, since my statement that Tannehill is "not that far off from RGIII and he hasn't even reached his potential yet" is "so preposterous"?

I've watched more than a handful of A&M games and even went over his tape. He has a great arm, good mobility and vision and he has the velocity on his throws that's needed. His accuracy and timing do need work and he would definitely not be ready to start from day one. However, he can make some pretty impressive throws and I'd take him at 22 if I were a GM if he was available.

But here's what gets me the most about your post.. To say that RGIII is leaps and bounds ahead of him, and that Tannehill's ceiling could never reach his "level" is nothing but bias and drivel.

If the Browns choose to take a gamble on him at 4 or 6, or even 7... I'd support it like I wrote earlier last week. Tell me again how essential it is to draft a running back in the top 10, because every team who succeeds has done that?

Look at my other post and explain to me why the Browns cant take Martin, Wilson, Grey, Miller or any of the other options in the 2-4th round and why they couldn't be good running backs in the Browns offense?

Honestly, give me a break dude.

3.) H&H have absolutely no pressure on losing their jobs. Lerner is "staying the course" with them at the helm.

1. I don't get caught up in hype. If I can't see it on the field, I don't believe it. That keeps me out of trouble.

And that's my problem with Tannehill. He hasn't done it in the field. He aims the ball in traffic. His mechanics fall apart when he's uncomfortable. He's going to have to be rebuilt from the feet up. And that is a box of chocolates proposition.

2. I don't have a 'motive'. I'm not a particularly ardent fan. I'm not lobbying. I'm just giving my opinion as objectively as possible. I'm passionate about football. But I'm not really much of a fan.

3. I'm not saying that he Browns need to draft a running back at 4. I've only said that I believe Richardson has value at 4, as does Claibourne. I am not a Justin Blackmon guy. And that's a bit rash. He has great film. But I simply don't trust body-catchers. And Blackmon's got some really bad habits when it comes to hosting he ball.

4. I really didn't mean for that post to come off as rude as it sounded. I just can't figure out who thinks Tannehill is a top 10 pick and what they're basing it on. It's just not there. I'm 9 games into his final season, and I don't see anything outside of the arm and the athleticism. And the arm is just strong. He doesn't really know how to use it. I'll try to do some cut ups this weekend to better explain what I'm talking about.

-jj

@mike-h said:

H&H have nothing to lose, if McCoy is so bad I don't see why you people would be so against taking Tannehill?

He's not that far off from RGIII and he hasn't even reached his potential yet. (17 starts)

That may be the most preposterous statement I've read on here in a long time... and that's saying something. Griffin is so far ahead of Tannehill you can barely chart it. Griffin is a complete player. Tannehill's ceiling isn't even where RGIII is right now.

Have you seen Tannehill throw in traffic? Show me his positives on 12-15 yard dig routes. He's all over the place. Even shallow crossers and drive routes he doesn't regularly hit in stride. This kid won't be ready to take an NFL snap before 2013, and that's pushing it. Griffin could start Sunday, and be effective.

That's why people are against taking him in the first. It makes no sense to draft a quarterback for 2014 when you know as a coaching staff and front office, that you won't be around to see him play unless something changes dramatically between then and now.

-jj

@tour2ma said:

Agree on Floyd... I've had him over Blackmon ever since the Combine.

As McEnroe would scream, "YOU CANNOT BE SERIOUS!"

Slow draw??? Ryan fires from his right shoulder. His release is very quick.

And I thought cycling through read progressions was a good thing everywhere except the Derrick Anderson School of Quarterbacking.

Do agree that he is still raw. Given that he was only a starter for 1.5 years, that's not surprising. But it's the level of his performance with such limited experience that makes his upside potential so tantalizing.

Point is not who is closer now... it is who will be closer in 2013 and beyond.

Agree... it is going to be a wild one...

I'm not pushing for us to take Tannehill. I would not spend a top ten on him. But the kid is good and has potential to be a very good NFL QB.

By "slow draw," I mean it takes too long from decision to release. He strides into his throws. I takes him a while to throw his weight up on his front foot. And he actually over-does it. He's really front heavy when he throws in a free pocket.

And when I say "cycles" through his reads I'm talking about how long it takes him to process what he sees. You can see him read-process-read-process. It's not natural. It's not instinctive. Luck goes through reads like his skimming a McDonalds menu - he instantly knows what he's looking at. Tannehill progresses through reads like someone handed him the French menu... I mean he knows French, but he's still translating it in his head.

Overall, he does nothing to impress me as a first round pick.

-jj

All I know is I want this kid's PR staff. They are amazing. This guy assembles a year and a half's worth of marginal tape, then goes three months without throwing a pass and suddenly, he's a top 10 pick? There is nothing about his kid that says he's anything but a long shot. He's got a slow draw, cycles through his reads... He's got a long way to go.

-jj

The Browns have in excess of $75 Million tied up in 20 players:

Joe Thomas $11,900,000

Joe Haden $9,765,505

D'Qwell Jackson $6,200,000

Sheldon Brown $5,366,667

Chris Gocong $5,012,500

Benjamin Watson $4,996,666

Scott Fujita $4,316,667

Phil Dawson $3,810,000

Seneca Wallace $3,000,000

Jaqua Parker $3,000,000

Alex Mack $2,463,000

Brandon Jackson $2,250,000

Frostee Rucker $2,000,000

Usama Young $2,000,000

Evan Moore $1,868,750

Phil Taylor $1,866,000

Joshua Cribbs $1,438,000

Ray Ventrone $1,366,667

T.J. Ward $1,650,000

Jabaal Sheard $1,165,000

Add to that an estimated $5 Million for Dimitri Patterson, and $6.5 Million for Athyba Rubin, and you've eaten up $90 Million of the $120, and you still need to pay another 30 players and cover the dead bonuses attributed to Eric Steinbach, Jayme Mitchell... and I think you've got some leftover moneys attributed to Jake Delhomme, Shaun Rogers, David Bowens, and Eric Barton. It just depends on how they treated it last year.

It goes fast.

Cincinnati offloaded a nearly $20 million cap number in 2012 when they traded Carson Palmer last year. So that really affected their budgets for 2012. Most teams won't find themselves $30+ million under the cap.

-jj

@the-gipper said:

Yet, that is why some have said we should sign Donovan McNabb, for that same purpose.

(they said that expecially when it was thought that we might have RGIII here)

True. I wouldn't be a fan of bringing McNabb in to this situation however. Feeley knows he's a back up... and he's been a darn good one for a long time. He can get Colt prepared to function within this offense. And, if all else fails, A.J. would be a great role model for how you become a quality backup in this league, rack up $15-20 million over the next decade and a half, and retire relatively pain free and with all your faculties. It ain't a bad living.

I'm not sure McNabb is at the point in his career where he's accepted that he's a back up. Sure if you had a rookie quarterback, you might bring McNabb in to mentor, if for no other reason, than he may have to start those first few games. But with an incumbent quarterback with two years' experience, McNabb just doesn't fit.

-jj

@the-gipper said:

Explain yourself.

AJ is a pro. He's a good teammate, and an excellent student. And he knows Reid/Shurmur's West Coast Offense as well as any human being on the planet. He has some of the same physical limitations as McCoy. Although, he's a bit bigger, he's never had a top flight arm, and has relied on his mobility at times - as limited as it may be.

You can learn all you can from a coach or coordinator. But you'll never be able to recreate the knowledge of being on the field, the practice field, and the film room as a quarterback. AJ's been doing that for a decade.

-jj

Should he end up in Cleveland, AJ Feely might be the best thing that ever happened to Colt McCoy.

-jj

I was making the comparison simply for effect. I even said as much. My point was only that of Cleveland's patron saints is to the rest of the sporting world, historically irrelevant. Only in Cleveland (or among Cleveland fans more accurately), is his career held in such high esteem.

To the rest of the world, the guy was a marginal, undersized quarterback who had a couple of good seasons 30 years ago... One very good. He peaked too late and declined too early. Only in Cleveland does that make you a legend.

And I'm not saying that anything is wrong with that. I just have a problem with, when discussing top quarterbacks or quarterbacking characteristics, that people want to throw his name in the mix. He doesn't belong in the discussion.

-jj

Not too this.... Not too that. He can play a little. He might push Colt McCoy a bit, but I wouldn't expect him to take the job from him.

-jj

At this point, I've heard 353 worse ideas this offseason.

-jj

@the-gipper said:

I think you are shortchanging Brian Sipe. First off, he was the Browns primary starting QB in 7 seasons: 76, 77, 78, 79, 80, 81, and 83. He would have been primary in an 8th season as well in 1982 except he was injured and started only 6 games.

And as for his "legendary" season, he was named the NFL's MVP. He threw for over 4000 yards. Only 2 people in history ever did that before: Namath and Fouts. (Because of changes in the game, these "production" numbers get scewed. There were 11 4000 yard QBs in the NFL last year...you need to compare him to the competition of his era, not to the numbers of later QBs.) And Sipe was "productive" enough in his career to still be the Browns career leader in most QB categories, like yards and TDs....more than even Otto Graham and Bernie Kosar. (and yes, with Graham, the same concept applies...you can't really compare apples to apples when looking at raw numbers).

As for Sipe being a bust as a free agent. I don't know if that is true. He went to the USFL after 12 years with the Browns for the bucks. (the stats don't show up because for 2 years he was on the Taxi Squad and never saw the field). I believe he did fairly well with the New Jersey Generals the year he was there. Then he left for the Jacksonville Bulls where he concluded his 14 year career due to injury.

I didn't mean to imply that he didn't play for 7 or 8 years. He was only effective for 3 or 4 seasons - basically '78 through about half of '81. By mid way through the '81 season, he was throwing interceptions at a remarkable clip, including 6 in a 22 point loss to the Steelers. A fete he would actually duplicate two years later, this time in Pittsburgh. History is not kind to Brian Sipe... but Cleveland is.

My comparison to Scott Mitchell (he was who I referred to as one of the biggest free agent busts in history), was just to illustrate a point. Scott Mitchell is universally panned as a horrible decision for the Lions. But most people forget that he threw for 4300 yards and 32 TDs with just 12 picks in 1995, and took the Lions to the playoffs. They only seem to remember the abysmal game he had against Philadelphia when he got there. I just feel like at times, fans look at their players through unique lenses.

-jj

@the-gipper said:

Because no one knows what a "sure shot" QB or a "project QB" is. Even Luck and Griffin are not sure shots...even they, in fact, are projects.

I mean, remember, Mike Phipps was the "Sure shot QB" drafted #3 overall in the 1970 draft.

Brian Sipe was the "project", drafted 330th overall in the 1972 draft. They don't even pick 330 players anymore. Today he would have been a street free agent.

How'd all that turn out?

One was a complete washout... Although did manage to win 7 more games than he lost or a career.

The other managed a productive three and a half year career, too bad it took him thirteen years to do it. Grabbed one division title, and fell off the map, after winning 2 more games than he lost as a starter.

The legend of Brian Sipe is so much better than the player himself. People forget that Sipe's legendary season wasn't even as productive as Scott Mitchell's '95 season with the Lions... And it's widely accepted that he was one of the biggest free agent busts in history.

-jj

To abuse a metaphor here... The quarterback is not the cherry. The quarterback is the spoon. It all looks delicious, and probably is. But without the spoon, it's just a big pile of stuff that'll only give you a headache if you try to make it do what it's intended to (i.e. be eaten).

-jj