@samoth said:

So you're saying that last year with a supposedly much better roster we almost won 5 games?

Mangini cut 26 guys from that roster and traded a handful of others. How many of those cut have caught on with other teams? (hint, you can count them on one hand).

We beat bad teams, so what? We're a bad team, and you've got to start somewhere. Letting Mangini go would be a travesty after what he's built from nothing.

Your citing of the 24/26 stats only serves to indicate that we were in fact a terribly untalented team last year. Yet even with that terrible roster had DA or BQ still been at QB for the last 4 games we would have ended up with 5 wins. This year other than Pittsburgh the Browns have been beating on bottom-feeders. We are a 4-11 team, a record that demonstrates we still suck. Sure we`re not the worst team in the NFL, but we`re no better than we were last year. Without Harrison and Cribbs, we really would be at the bottom of the barrel. We`ve already reached our ceiling under Mangini. Just like when he was with the NYJ, the best we`ll become under him is a mediocre, 8-8 team that only makes the playoffs if it gets lucky.

Other negative points of Mangini is that he is a terribe play-caller and game-manager, utterly fails at making in-game adjustments, and is completely unable to work with other people. Holmgren`s vision of a consensus-based team essentially precludes Mangini from being in the picture.

We are a less talented team because of Mangini. His starters are worse than waiver pick-ups and backups. That speaks to his awful talent evaluation abilities. Holmgren`s coach is going to have to be able to add input. Mangini does not know how to operate in a concensus-like fashion. He`s gone.

@atenears said:

I don't know ... during the Holmgren presser when asked specifically about Brady Quinn, Holmgren directed his answer squarely about Derek Anderson and how he passed all over his Seahawk team (as Lum's informed us yesterday, Thanks Lums!).

I thought that was a rather intriguing endorsement for Derek Anderson by Holmgren.

I just might bet my right nut ...

You do that. In the meantime back in the real world...

I want to see Quinn given a full off-season and training camp to build chemistry with his offense, be trained by a Holmgren-appointed QB guru (if not Holmgren himself), and play the entire 16 game season. That would provide a completely fair and thorough evaluation of Quinn. If you look at his numbers at Notre Dame, he steadily improved year after year. I think that Quinn`s ceiling is still quite high, but all of his mishandling has resulted in shattered confidence. He`s screwed up his mechanics, overworked out and built up so much muscle he`s lost his fluidity, and he is no longer confident about being able to predict where his receivers will go. Given a proper learning environment and the proper teacher, I believe Quinn can get back on track and reach his potential.

It would be a real, real shame if Quinn were cut or traded, ended up on another team, and showed what he could do when given a real shot and proper training.

@mopaji said:

People who point to the first part of the season don't understand what it means to rebuild a team. Of course you're going to struggle early on. The recent success is a result of a good system being executed properly. And Harrison? I think it is better that he is in now instead of before he was ready. PLayers need to earn their time so I have no problem with keeping him out early on. Plus, he fumbles a little bit more than any HC can be comfortable with.

4-11 is something to hang your hat on. Fans have a problem lumping the last 11 years together. This is year one with Mangini. And if you can win 5 games, one against the Steelers, in a rebuilding building year, you're doing pretty well. And its something to hang your hat on.

Oh please. We only ended up at 4-12 last year because we had Gradkowski and friggin` Ken Dorsey at QB for the last 4 games. Had both Quinn and DA not both been injured, we would have likely won at least one more game and ended at 5-11. Right now we`re 4-11. That`s four wins. That is not an improvement over last year, and even if we win a 5th game it won`t mean anything.

If Jamal hadn`t been injured he would still be in playing right now, and we wouldn`t have won 3 straight. Everyone would then be calling for Mangini`s head. The problem with Clevelanders is they`re so used to utterly degenerate play that a tiny sliver of hope gets them into an ecstasy-induced fervor.

So our team is good enough to beat the bottom feeders. Whoop dee doo. Mangini has consistently demonstrated an inability to handle working with people of authority. He will only be a headache to Holmgren, and I think Holmgren already realizes this.

I predict Mangini being gone after this year.

@mr.-t said:

Atleast the Big Ten didnt back down to stiffer competition like the ACC pussies did!

you are only as good as your competition!

and USC would of beaten the Browns this year! sorry but its true. They have more Heart!

I am glad RAC and Simple Phil are gone!

They were noting before the Rose bowl that on USC's defense that every starter could be drafted in thefirst round and start on any NFL team! USC got Screwed out of the Championship game by a heavy favored SEC Conference Favorite BCS. This years Championship game will be good to watch but Florida and Oklahama cant even hold USC's Jock Straps! Those guys play at a different level which is closer to a Pro Team!

As far as the BIg Ten They need to stop playing so xxxxing soon, and need to add in a Big Ten championship game so that there best teamswill be ready to play these bowl games you cant pick up and play 6 to 7 weeks later after your season has ended and expect to compete!

It's would *have*. Would HAVE. HAVE.

...erhem, now that I've gotten that off my chest...

No college team could beat any NFL team, even the Detroit Lions. In fact the Lions would demolish the best college team so terribly it would be painful to watch.

But I agree USC should have been in the NC. Just because they had one off day and lost a game to a weak team, people wrote them off as over-rated. Can you imagine what the NFL would be like if people had that attitude and policy towards teams? I'm guessing the Giants wouldn't have been allowed to play in the Super Bowl because of their "obvious inferiority".

I really, really would love to have Shanahan. Can you imagine what he'd be able to do with Cribbs and the Flash offense? My God, the possibilities are endless. No more fat tubs of Crenllian lard staring off into space dreaming about his next scheduled consumption of fat globules while his offense flounders in uncreative degradation.

Think of how powerful our offense could be with Quinn, who is mobile himself, and Cribbs throwing out of the pocket every now and then. Shanahan is a master of exploiting mismatches. It's why a mediocre quarterback like Jay Cutler could throw for so many yards (and why I'm sure he's now worrying about his future over in Denver). He'll use KW and BE to their full potential.

The only catch, of course, is that if he's given GM power we will be destined for mediocrity. If he wants full control I'd much rather Lerner didn't bother with him. But if he's willing to just focus on being a coach, he'd be the best long-term choice by a long shot.

PETA wants a lot of things which will never, ever happen. I love animals almost as much as they do, but from a realistic standpoint I can only conclude they're insane. The commissioner of the NFL, the most profitable and economically healthy sport in the US, as well as the multi-millionaire/billionaire owners of the NFL teams, absolutely do NOT care about dogs' "well-being". They couldn't possibly care less what Vick cruelly did to a bunch of animals. All they worry about are the PR relations and ultimately ticket sales, and how the actions of their players affects their profits. If Vick continues to improve his image the way he's doing now, I have no doubt he'll be back in the NFL.

But I imagine he'll want to be a starter somewhere, and there are plenty of teams desperate for a quality game-changing QB out there to give Vick his wish. He would definitely refuse a role as a backup for a franchise QB.

Great, let's all bash BE again. I don't suppose anyone noticed he stopped dropping passes his last several games? Admittedly our weak 3rd and 4th string quarterbacks didn't get him the ball much, but he caught it whenever it was humanly possible to do so. I think he's finally out of his slump. So maybe we can lay off the hate?

@wilsonthevolleyball said:

Established great coaches aren't born as established great coaches. Someone has to give new minds a chance to become that established great coach. Certain franchises understand the very definition of the word "opportunity," and how that single word can lift franchises to unprecedented levels of success. The next Holmgren, Belichick, and Parcells need to be found by teams, not the other way around.

That's the problem with the Browns though, isn't it? Perhaps the city of Cleveland in general. Everyone wants a championship *so badly* they're willing to gamble on unproven young minds who *might* in the unlikeliest of scenarios turn out to be the next Belichick. But seriously, it's not going to happen. There will never be another Bill Belichick for a long time. At this point all I want is success. Perennial, consistent above average-success, where we can compete for a playoff spot. Other teams fire their coaches when they fail to make the playoffs, or fail to *get far* in the playoffs. We have to fire out coaches because they can't even come close to a .500 average. I'm seriously sick of that. I'll be quite happy with a proven head coach who we know will bring us *reasonable* success.

And besides, once you get into the playoffs, you're only 3 wins away from the Super Bowl. Seeing as how *failing* to get into the playoffs by a game caused the Berea training camp audience to chant "Super Bowl" as their team practiced, I imagine just getting into the playoffs would satisfy the city for quite a while.

Ya know...Marte actually hit something like .320 over his last 20 or so games, and .290 over his last 30. Some people are late bloomers. Maybe we should give him a chance to continue what he ended the season with, instead of trading him away and possibly watching him bloom with another team?