@nw-ohio-brownie said:

Shep,

Let me try to answer this. First off, understand that I respect you as a poster on this board. If nothing else, you generate things that we can debate and that's the idea of a message board.

Let me speak for myself. I am not as passionate about Mangini as much as I am passionate about the Cleveland Browns. If Mr. Holmgren decides to go another direction with the head coach after this year, I will still be as passionate about the Orange and Brown.

But I am not going to stand idly by with my hat in my hand as media/internet rumblings begin to attempt to remove the first coach this 11-year old franchise has had who sticks to his guns, holds players accountable, gets his players to play disciplined, smart football, and doesn't kowtow to the local media. Firing Mangini after Year 2 of a serious rebuild, a rebuild in which he was willing to clean up the cultural mess he inherited in Year 1, would be a mistake. I don't understand how people can argue that clear progress hasn't been made especially with the little things such as penalties, player accountability, etc. A competitive 5-8 in Year 2 with ALL factors taken into consideration isn't satisfying by any stretch, but it's also not an abomination that justifies the removal of the head coach.

Your second point about how he hasn't done anything in his head coaching career is completely unfair. He never got the chance to finish the job in New York and if some have their way, the axe will prematurely fall again here in Cleveland. ALL NFL coaches who have had long-term success have had short-term struggles along the way for various reasons. Belichick, Walsh, Noll, and Parcells all had dismal records early on in their careers. But thankfully for them and their fans, those organizations weren't making decisions in today's INSTANT GRATIFICATION era. Because if Walsh went 2-14 in Year 1 and 6-10 in Year 2 (as he did in SF) today in Cleveland, he would probably be fired on The Browns Board threads. Coach Mangini deserves another year at the very least because significant, important, cultural, and tangible progress is clearly evident.

To touch on your final point about Mangini being 'not the most likable' guy, just let me say I have always been a substance over style guy. Give me a Mangini presser any day over a Rex Ryan/Jerry Glanville vaudeville act. The man is consistent in how he approaches things. When things go right or wrong, he's consistent in his approach. Coaches that wear their emotions on their sleeves don't often respond well to adversity. That's why I admire stoic guys who have been (Landry, Noll, Belichick, Walsh, Fisher) and will be (Harbaugh, Payton) successful long term in this league. You can have the loudmouth expressive hacks like Sparano, Rex, Sam Wyche, etc. Mangini expects his players to learn each day. He expects them to be accountable for their actions. He expects them to prepare and improve each and every day. But the best part is that he expects these things from himself as well and then goes out and walks the walk. Many call him unlikable, but he has the respect of the players in that locker room. It would have been very easy for him to go out there on Monday and kill Delhomme for his performance, but he didn't. Delhomme's a big boy, an 15?-year veteran who can take it, but instead Mangini deflected that criticism, unlike Rex who threw his beleaguered 22-year old 2nd-year QB under the bus this week. Privately, EM is demanding of his guys, but publicly he steps up to the plate and does what he should: he protects these guys from the criticism they face. That's why I respect the man so much, and if there's something I do get passionate about in regards to EM, it's that. Criticize the coach, but don't dare criticize the man. He's got character. Period. And for someone like Tony Grossi to use the PD as a sounding board for a personal attack against EM, sickens and angers me. It's amazing that EM has been able to dutifully answer that POS's baited questions this long without cracking.

Again, Shep, I respect your posts, but I am passionate enough about speaking out on the importance of keeping Eric Mangini because of where I see this franchise heading with him as the head coach.

I have to say this is an excellent post and it mirrors my perception of Mangini perfectly. This is the reason why I was very upset when his best friend backstabbed him in NY and why I keep track of how the Browns are doing. It's a nice escape from what the Jets have turned into. I still bleed green but I also take satisfaction in seeing good people succeed. I hope that's the case with Mangini with the Browns.

A couple of observations right after Hillis 1st TD run:

1) It was good to see Hillis chase after Vickers afterwards and show his appreciation for making the key block that allowed for the TD.

2) It was also good to see Hillis all giddy jumping around towards the sidelines celebrating with his teammates and then fix his helmet and shake Mangini's hand with both of his with a slight bow. What a tremendous show of respect from a rising star of a player. It also shows that Hillis has his head on straight.

Both were very good to see.

That was an intense game and one of the better ones I’ve watched in awhile. It seemed to have playoff intensity and it was fun watching each team trade hard punches. The Jets looked prepared, played well (except for the FG unit) and Sanchez didn’t make any costly mistakes (or should I say his mistakes didn’t lead to costly repercussions). It was obvious after Cribbs, Fujita, and Brown left with injuries, the Jets were a little too much for the Browns to handle. Even then, the Browns made it a game, never gave up and might have won if a few plays went the other way. Browns fans should be proud of the way they played. The Jets have been adding skill players for the past two year on top of the foundation that Mangini laid. Only after year 1.5 of the rebuilding project, Browns already have a solid foundation to build upon and can hang with any team. I hope Holmgren will allow Mangini to continue to build his program as no one deserves it more.

Goodluck for the rest of the year and I hope the three starters you lost will be back ASAP.

@bartscott said:

You saying the Jets feel second fiddle to anyone is laughable. Wasn't it your team that ran off to Baltimore and became a great team after years of sucking in Cleveland? And now you have another pretty crappy team with not a lot of talent, over achieving for a few games, and suddenly they are some kind of dynasty.

Jets will give them the beatdown they deserve. The Jets are just a better team. Mangini will never a be winning coach. He's gone this year anyway.

Ummm.....dude. I'm a Jets fan. I though that was abudantly clear. I don't alway drink the green koolaid. I'm skeptical of the new regime and hence more critical. I just call them like i see them.

BTW, to those that think the Jets GM is some kind of great talent evaluator, just remember how our 1st/2nd draft picks are doing. It's funny that some try so hard to take credit away from Mangini by saying Tannenbaum was the main driving force in picking all those good players but Gholston? No....that one's on Mangina. Laughable logic.

@the-gipper said:

The bold part above, yes, is absolutely true. In my opinion , out here beyond the Pale, the Jets actually have a more flamboyant image going back of course to Joe Namath. For a while with Lawrence Taylor the Giants may have taken some of that thunder, but for the most part I think people think of the Giants as "the establishment" team from NYC, i.e. the boring, stale, white bread team. The Jets were the more rebellious bunch. Like I said, thank Namath for that.

I see where you're coming from. I wasn't around for the Broadway Joe days. My fandom for the Jets (or should I say curse) started when O'Brien was making sweet music with Al Toon and even though the Jets were decent around that time, it was also when the Giants with LT was "the team" to follow as you alluded to in your previous post. Ever since then, the Jets fluctuated between irrelevant to terrible until Parcells restored some respectability. Masochism is a prerequisite for being a Jets fan. Your assessment of the Giants is spot on. Jets fans rip on Giants fans by saying that most of their fans wear docker pants and pennyloafers to the Giants game while having wine and cheese.

@the-gipper said:

FYI, I do NOT believe that out here in the real world that the Jets have been second fiddle to the Giants. I understand that the Giants have had their success compared to the Jets, but to us in America beyond the Hudson the Jets and Giants are Tweedledee and Tweedledum. Maybe that is all different inside the NYC metro area, but not out here. We all feel the Jets and Giants have a pretty equal "celebrity" status if you will.

As for the "quitting on the team" factor, if the Jets quit and now if the Vikings seem to be quitting.....what is the common denominator? It ain't Eric Mangini

So what you are saying is that people outside of the tri-state area don't differentiate between the Giants or the Jets and that we're just @sshole teams from NY that play in NJ? I guess that's a bit comforting to know. Things may have shifted abit recently but within NYC, the Jets have always been the bastard child. Besides the ineptitude and numerous heartbreaking moments, the Jets have always been ridiculed for playing their home games at the Giants Stadium.

There was a great article in the WSJ right before the start of the season that gives a good idea of how the Jets were perceived. Very sarcastic and funny.

http://online.wsj.com/article/SB1000142405...0523646204.html

Evidence of incompetence is here:

@earl34 said:

+1. Nicely stated. As a matter of fact (and you can disagree if you like) I would go so far as to say that when he had a healthy, legit QB (Pennington, pre-injury Favre) his record was quite good at 18-9 (Penny in '06 and Favre in '08). Injured Favre, hobbled Pennington or Kellen Clemens...not so good.

I agree completely. I'm sure you know that the success of a HC is largely dependent on the QB. Belichick wasn’t much of a genius when Bledsoe was calling the signals, was he? Rex/Tannenbaum married themselves to Sanchez and they will do all they can to coddle him. If the Jets crap the bed due to Sanchez’s poor play, watch Shotty Jr take the blame as he is already being set up to be the fall guy. Unfortunately for some Browns fans, Mangini has never made a scapegoat out of his coordinators (which is something Herm Edwards excelled at) so I wouldn’t expect Daboll to get the boot unless he starts stealing Mangini’s snuff.

The reason why the media is in love with the Jets is because they made it to the AFC Championship game (doesn't matter how they got there), they signed great players, they were on Hard Knocks, and they're 6-2 and in 1st place in the AFC East. They deserve to be getting the attention. Also I don't think Tomlinson is a "talented asshat." He's an aging hall of fame running back that has found the fountain of youth, for the first half of the season at least. Holmes and Jason Taylor...yea they're asshats lol.

I've been there with Mangini. After his 1st year, everyone here adored him...loved him. He was even given a cameo on The Sopranos. But after that, the team just quit on him. He couldn't handle NY. That's why he was fired. Maybe it's different in Cleveland, we'll see after a few years. Hopefully he guys makes you guys into contenders again. It's a good thing for the NFL if the Browns are good again.

The Jets have been seeking media attention and have been getting it ever since Rex was hired. They lobbied hard to get on Hard Knocks, acquired high profile player regardless of character, and Rex is a one man show by himself. Can you blame the Jets for craving attention having played second fiddle to the Giants for all these years and with all those unsold PSLs? They needed to generate excitement (or at the very least intrigue) somehow.

A team that quit on their HC doesn’t start off 8-3. Even during the 4-12 season, the team played hard until the end in my eyes. They quit on Mangini during the actual collapse and I suspect it has something to do with the way Mangini handled Favre. You can’t sell the team concept when Favre, in his own office disconnected from the rest of the players, are sending pictures of his weewee to female Jet employees.

As long as Schottenheimer lets Sanchez play and not call plays like “throw into double coverage”, we should be all good. Joking aside, I’m not sold on Sanchez and I’m afraid he’s going to be an interception machine if the Jets fall behind and their running game is rendered ineffective. As resilient as Sanchez has been coming back from bad games, he also appears to have a very fragile psyche. In addition, he still seems to have trouble reading defenses, still doesn’t step up in the pocket to evade pressure, still locks onto targets, and his accuracy isn’t too great. However, he has a mean pump fake, which I bet he practiced diligently looking at himself in the mirror with Braylon by his side. Perhaps I'm being too harsh on a QB only a year removed from his rookie season.

For those that think the Browns can just run on the Jets defense because you exposed inexperienced LB corp of the Patriots, you have something else coming. The Jets LB corp is MUCH better than the Patriots. Plus, Jets secondary (minus Cromartie) are also very good against the run.

Fortunately for the Browns, Jets strength at CB may be moot since Watson and Hillis are the top two receivers for the Browns and this fact will spell trouble for the Jets. I fear the Browns will just use their WR as decoys and attack with Watson/Moore to expose the weak Jets safeties. I also think this game will expose how good Hillis is at blitz pickup.

Should be an interesting game. Can’t wait until Sunday.

@kshutchins said:

I don't know if this is true but one of the things that Mangini has talked about over and over again impresses me. He emphasizes being able to prepare differently for each week in order to exploit the weaknesses of the opponent. In his first season, Mangini described how each player was learning the roles of all the other players so they could understand the changes weekly. He talked about how he looked forward to the days when the players would be eager to see the new game plan for the approaching opponent and that could only happen when they had an understanding of everything that was happening on the field. It looks like the learning curve is not quite as steep as it once was and progress is being made. I think this really helps build a team effort and that sense of trust that Mangini describes as a core concept of the team. I just love this guy as a head coach. I believe it's this type of understanding and interconnectedness that has the team ENJOYING what they are doing, feeling their progress internally to the team and has them playing hard each week. I am enjoying the heck out of watching that development because it creates a strong sense of self esteem and preparedness on a weekly basis. What a tremendous foundation for the future.

Great post and I agree wholeheartedly. Unfortunately, even such solid foundation can be undone in a year or two with a "player friendly" coach. Just ask Rex....errrr...I mean Herm Edwards. What a stark contrast between Brown's systematic dismantling of the Patriots and the Jets bumbling/fumbling with no discipline for most of the game and winning b/c of Lion's own share of blunders.

@jrb12711 said:

haha yea, i remember that shit. I had good money on that game and I couldn't believe how stupid that was. It's almost like he was exepcting shone green to cut and he didn't. Every one makes bone headed plays though.

You're absolutely right that you can find a reel of anyone looking foolish. However, Cromartie in that play seemed (to me) like he was shying away from contact and expected someone else to make the tackle. I guess only excuse that would lessen that embarrassment would be if he was playing hurt.

sorry to waste bandwith like this but braylon sucks a big one. how do you let a sure td pass go through your hands?! i hate him.

Dawgfanforever88 said:

I'm almost positive this is Florio

I'm starting to think he/she is on Belichick's payroll. If not, that is some serious and unhealthy devotion to Mangini hatred.

@sisky-fringo said:

honestly, i think he must have impressed the hell out of Bernie Kosar, Jim Brown, and Randy Lerner. who else in the organization has as much clout as them?

There is no doubt in my mind that Holmgren interviewed key personnel within the Browns organization. I think it's also true (as you indicated) that Mangini impressed Bernie Kosar and Jim Brown. Otherwise, Holmgren wouldn't say " Eric has gained the respect and admiration of players, coaches and others in the organization".

I can't remember the coach's name but I read an article regarding the QB coach (I think) telling the media that they missed it with Eric. In fact, I believe there was a thread about it as well. I distinctly remember being struck by the conviction in his statements and feel that it's a good testament to how Mangini is thought of in the locker.

@sj_browns said:

obviously, mh feels that this coaching staff can work together with the fo and they can all build together to bring the browns back to dominance. i'm glad this didn't drag out for a long time and it's nice to know who the coach and coaching staff are going to be.

Whether they can work together is an obvious prerequisite but IMHO, b/c of the lack of familiarity between the two, I believe Mangini had to impress the hell out of Holmgren. No one would've questioned Holgrem if he let go of Mangini....in fact, that's what most were expecting. But the fact that Mangini and his entire coaching staff are retained with such ringing endorsement about his "process" suggests to me that Holgrem wasn't just giving lip service.

@nw-ohio-brownie said:

Call me selfish, Stan, but I want BE to re-up with NY. As you know, the Jets come to Cleveland next season and with Mangini in the fold for 2010, things could be a bit interesting down on the lakefront for that game.

I hope that doesn't happen. At first, I didn't mind BE coming over b/c I thought having a legit #1 WR would help a developing rookie QB. Ironically, Sanchez's int # dramatically increased once BE arrived (and losing games). He started locking onto BE. That's one thing I hate Mangini for this year; sending Edwards over to the Jets. Him and Kerry Rhodes are probably discussing their Hollywood careers and putting on their mascaras right about now.

"Over the past few weeks Eric and I have had a chance to talk on a number of occasions including our meetings over the last two days. I was able to gain some tremendous insight into his thought process and philosophies, and came away from our meetings very impressed. In my opinion, Eric has gained the respect and admiration of players, coaches and others in the organization, and with him continuing to lead the team I feel that we are headed in the right direction. Working together, our goal is to build on the strong tradition of this franchise and help get the Browns back to the playoffs."

http://content.usatoday.com/communities/th...gini-as-coach/1

A nice rining endorsement from a "credible leader". Even with an impending playoff game, it's quote like this that makes me still disappointed that the Jets let go of Mangini for stupid PSLs.

Mangini must be doing something right if a Patriots whore is writing positive things about him.

@joesixpat said:

I'm not sure that Terry Pluto meant 50/50 when he said "a long shot". I think people are a little bit ramped up after a few wins though and are seeing the season through rose colored glasses as the meaningless games are won.

Rattle off 4 wins at the beginning of the season and I think we're talking very different prospects for Mangini. Win just the last 4 or so and you're a "long-shot" at returning. I think Mangini understands this as well as anyone.

But overall Pluto's right - not everything Mangini has done has been bad and even when he screwed up he certainly had the best of intentions.

Peter King, is that you?

@gips said:

It could be that ryan is the only semblance of life on the sideline when something good happens and they hope to catch him getting emotional and fiery...mangini often shows funny expressions when things go bad...i dont read into this much..the media is out to get mangini but the lerner nazi henchmen are out in full force to convince folks mangini is the right guy ,i fall in between them and will let time tell all and sort out the facts from the lies...

Or maybe Rex used the term "ironic" because coordinators get too much credit when things go right and head coaches get too much blame when things go wrong. But hey, we all choose to believe what we want to believe so....