@comeonman said:

I would bet under on the Jets

cool 50 percent of people probably will but having people that do is what balances out and helps makes the informed people like me able to make money.

I would definetly go over on the Jets, I'm a fan so I'm biased but 6.5 is pathethic low for a team that won 8 games last year and still has a likeable coach in the locker room that is coaching for his job. Best DL in the NFL will allow Ryan to really dial the defense in, depth is high, Smith has a year under his belt and even if he doesn't improve Vick is there to fill in and while he might not be Brady he is better than 6.5 wins for a team that again won 8 last year, will have a top 5 defense, top 10 at worst, and added massive upgrades at the skill positions (Eric Decker, 2nd round pass catching TE, Chris Johnson at RB). It's also a weak division outside of NE, the Jets should get 3 wins alone in their 4 games against Miami and Buffalo and they always play NE tough it wouldn't be out of the relm of possibility to split with them like they did last year with a vastly inferior team on paper.

I'm still shaking my head 6.5 wins. Best DL in the NFL with 3 pro bowl talents, best group of safeties Ryan has had to work with since he has been in NY. Solid OL, very good stable of backs. It's very similar to the teams that went to back to back AFC championship games, the Dline is better and the corners are worse, but will be a very good defense and the OLine and Running Game will be solid. Not a ton of playmakers at WR but a young pass catching TE and a solid WR (Decker is better than Braylon Edwards was although he was good with the Jets until he had a major injury) but very good stable of backs. Not just Chris Johnson who will be the no.1 back but a good power back in Ivory who slides down to his natural position as no.2 back, a solid no.3 3rd down / pass blocking back in Bilal Powell who slides to his natural position as a no.3 back who only plays in the type of plays he excels at and just signed Daryl Richardson from the Rams who has experience starting and while no superstar is a solid no.4 back to provide injury insurance in case someone gets banged up. I realize alot of people dont trust Geno Smith but again with a running offense and a great defense the Jets went to 2 championship games with a bum at QB in Sanchez. And even if he struggles they have Vick as insurance.

Not trying to harp too much on it just put my opinion out there in case anyone wants to make an easy money investment and actually bet on it they are definietly one of the better bets out there.

@tim-couch-pulls-out said:

98 Comp. 164 Att. 59.8% Comp. % 1,002 Yds. 4 TD 5 INT 72.8 Rating

114 Comp. 192 Att. 59.4% Comp.% 1,231 Yds. 7 TD 6 INT 77.4 Rating

120 Comp. 203 Att. 59.1% Comp. % 1,319 Yds. 7 TD 6 INT 77.6 Rating

141 Comp. 267 Att. 52.8% Comp. % 1,731 Yds. 9 TD 9 INT 70.3 Rating

93 Comp. 149 Att. 62.4% Comp. % 872 Yds. 2 TD 7 INT 63.4 Rating

64 Comp. 106 Att. 60.4% Comp. % 790 Yds. 8 TD 4 INT 92.9 Rating

59 Comp. 87 Att. 67.8% Comp. % 737 Yds. 7 TD 5 INT 96.8 Rating

Does anybody care to guess what these are?

These are single season stats from a sample of different Cleveland Browns QB's over the past 15 years. Look at them, they're shitty. A number of them have more TD's than INT's. Many have low completion percentages. Nearly all of them have below average ratings. We haven't had championship-level play from any quarterback since coming back into this league.

Why is it? Is it because the team as a whole is bad? Well, yes. But no Cleveland Brown QB has had any sort of success with any other team in the league after playing with us. So it's not just that we're bad...it's that THEY'RE bad, too.

Our talent evaluation has been awful for the QB position. We've busted on every QB pick we've had in this entire millenium. We've seen QB's come and go. We've seen talented QB's from other clubs come in and then flame out for us. We've seen highly touted college stars wither and die on the shores of Lake Erie. We've gotten our hopes up for untouted, unheralded practice squad guys, only to have those hopes squashed with their first interceptions.

So what, exactly, is it?

its not coaching, even if the coaches were bad none of the Cleveland QBs went to other teams and proved that coaching was the thing holding them back. It's just bad management and picking. The Browns aren't doomed to failure but the previous GMs made bad picks and bad free agent signings and guys like Couch / Quinn / Weeden just weren't NFL starter caliber. Remember there are only 32 starters in the NFL and only about half of them are worth starting so your talking about 15 decent QBs ranging probably 10-12 years in age. There are 120 college teams in FBS with starting QBs and a ton more to consider from FCS or lower levels (cant be ruled out as a few guys like Flacco turn out to be legit). So your looking at over 1000 QBs in 10 years trying to find the, even if we could some guys that retired already, maybe 30-40 players that are Franchise QBs. It is not an easy job or guarenteed to be successful, and Cleveland isn't the only "stupid" team that in reality isn't "stupid" but just hasn't been good enough. Even still, part of it is a gamble, and the best coach in the league or the best GM in the league can crap out too because of unknown variables. Sooner or later Cleveland will get it right, I believe they just did, but thats besides the point, just gotta keep grinding and trying to get better decision makers and better evaluators to improve your chances at guessing right or be lucky enough to get the no.1 pick in one of the years that happens about every 10 years or so where there is a 99 percent can't miss guy at number one (Elway, Manning, Luck)

@the-gipper said:

I guess the thing about being a fan of so many players and teams that players you like play for is that it seems really sort of like a chick thing. Comes off soundy a little flighty and flaky.

I mean, perhaps it is hormonal for you.

I'm a fan of my teams and I'm a diehard fan. I be Jets/Mets/Knicks/Rangers/Red Storm/Fighting Irish fans till I die. However, I am also a fan of the game, like obviously you are as well. I am a fan of football so I appreciate the game. I like players / teams that personify how I believe the game should be played. I don't know what is feminine about that. I also root for guys that I think are underappreciated or guys that the media bangs on for stupid things (think Randy Moss) to me thats more about principle and standing up for you beliefs, which is the exact opposite of being flakey. To stereotype my opinions as a "chick thing" and acting like I just hop on bandwagons because of popularity / looks / being really good or whatever couldn't be further from the truth.

Did you not root for Kosar or have a soft spot for him after he left the Browns? If you didn't I would say your the one acting like a chick by both being a "what can you do for me" person and by being bitter. If you did root for him I would say that is no different than me still rooting for a player who used to play for my team which in this case is a college team. So if I want to root for guys like Teo or Theo Riddick because I respect the way they play the game and their work ethic and passion and the fact that they were the heart of NDs team and gave me some really good memories and made watching the team more enjoyable when they move to the next level how is that different than pulling for Kosar or anyone else who played the right way, had success in Cleveland and left on good terms (not talking Lebron here, more guys like Kosar or Jim Thome on the Indians).

@douche-nozzle said:

The point is that there is a reason Johnny was there at 22. Can't you see that? Do you honestly believe that the team that has done THE worst job of drafting and performing for the past 40 years is really smarter than the rest of the NFL world?

Why not be excited but contain the boasting and trash talking until the organization and the new QB actually do something?

what was the reason Dan Marino was available at 27? Why was Joe Montana available at 82? Why was Tom Brady available at 199? Aaron Rodgers at 24? Drew Brees at 32? All these guys apparently had more doubters than Manziel. Who cares? You can find negatives about ANYBODY and harp on them all they want why not try look at the positives. Try to remember that the people who drafted Manziel are different than who picked Couch / Weeden / Quinn, ect, and its faulty logic to act like the front office is doomed to failure because people who aren't in the organization anymore made back picks.

@the-gipper said:

Interim Trivia....for those not name Tourma: Here are the questions he did not answer. You newbies or oldies have a second chance:

1. Where did the Ravens rank on defense (yards) in their 2012 Super Bowl winning season?

They were hurt all year and I think they gave up alot of yards in the regular season when guys like Lewis / Reed / Suggs were out with injuries. I'm going to guess 23

2. Besides the Pats/Colts/Steelers what other team have the Ravens faced 3 times in postseason play?

I'm going to guess the Titans, I vividly remember Eddie George battling Ray Lewis in a hard fought playoff game so thats at least one. The Titans were good for a good stretch with McNair and made multiple playoffs.

4. When the Steelers finally won a postseason game after 39-40 years in the league, who did they beat?

I'll guess the Raiders since they were good in the period and would have been in the postseason alot.

5. A. Who was the last team the Steelers beat in a postseason game?

I'll guess San Diego

B. Who was the last team the Bengals beat in a postseason game?

(already got Browns/Ravens)

I'm thinking this has to be late 80s, Denver was in the postseason alot in that time period I'll guess the Broncos.

6. Who did Marvin Lewis replace as HC of the Bengals?

Mike? Shula... I feel like it was one of Don Shulas kids

7. Besides the Bengals and Browns, what other entities did Paul Brown coach in his career?

Pretty sure he coached the Ohio State Buckeyes for a couple years. I could be wrong though.

11. B. Name any team from Southwest Ohio that won a Pro Football Championship?

D. Besides the Browns and the Canton Bulldogs, what other teams from Northeast Ohio have won a Pro Football Championship?

12. Who were the other HOF players on the Steeler Curtain dynasty besides Blount/Bradshaw/Green/Ham/Harris/Lambert/Noll/Swann? (2 names)

Mike Webster is the HOF C you are thinking of. Died pennyless under a bridge, very tragic. I forget if OP confirmed but WR John Stallworth was the other I remember watching his speech.

13. Who were the other HOF players on the 40s/50s Browns besides Paul Brown/Otto/Groza/Lavelli/Motley? (4 names)

14. Besides Jim Brown, Groza, Warfield, and Hickerson, who was the other Hall of Fame player who played on the 1964 Browns?

15. Name the 2 HOF players that played at any time for the Bengals, and the 4 HOFers that played at some point for the Ravens.

Ravens: Ogden? i think, I remember they had that stud LT for years and I believe he has already been enshrined.

i just dont know why its so bad to have a favorite player. Im a Jets fan, a Browns fan and a Panthers fan cause thats where I was born, my family comes from, and where I live now. Back when Bo Jackson played I was also a Raiders fan because Bo was my favorite player and thats where he got drafted. I pull for Notre Dame in football we have had some good players recentely but no transcendent ones. Had Johnny Football played for Notre Dame I would have been a fan of his team almost anywhere he would have went (obvious exceptions like New England / Miami), but had he played for ND and got drafted by San Diego I'm sure I would have instantly became a San Diego fan.

Johnny Football is one of the most hyped guys ever, partly because hes a QB, but he's far from the only transcendent player to move on from college to the pros. I'm sure there are alot of Oklahoma fans that now pull for the Vikings because of Peterson, I'm sure there are alot of Stanford fans that pull for Indy, Georgia Tech with Detriot. Yea some are short term fans, some are long term fans, some are bandwagon and some are diehard. I don't understand the need to beat your chest and talk down other new fans because your a 'diehard'. Yea your a bigger fan than me Cleveland is only my no.2 team, I freely acknowledge that and respect that like I'm sure almost all the Texas A&M / Browns new fans do. No need to beat your chest and turn your nose up, every team has bandwagon fans and it's not that bad of a thing. Personally I like my team to be relevant, for people to be talking about them, for them to be interesting, and I want them to have some bandwagon fans. Some will be laughable at jumping on the bandwagon (something I don't think any of the 'new browns fans' have really done), some are good fans, potential fans, looking for a team because for whatever reason they weren't born in a big city metro with an nfl team, or any area where college football is king and didn't grow up rooting for an nfl team as a kid or they never really got into football or their dad was never a football fan and / or never passed a team and a passion down to them. That doesn't mean these people aren't good fans now or that they can't become diehard lifelong fans of a team, if they are passionate and looking for a good reason to adopt and nfl team and start following the nfl more than they use to or actually or already follow a ton but dont have a team yet.

Time will tell but why be so abrasive and argumentive about it. I don't understand it. Do business turn down new customers? or do they look for new markets to penetrate and establish new clintele? isn't growing the fan base a good thing for the team, and the fans whose team will get more coverage, more nationally televised games, more money so going a little over the cap or spending for that free agent isn't such a big concern? I mean I swear some of the fans I read are like tortured Cubs fans you would rather the team stink forever and console yourself at how great of a hardcore fan you are than actually succeed and have to share the "glory" of being a fan with a few more people.

@hoorta said:

That would be the point TC- the floor gets raised- by a lot. That's my contention- his jump balls to Evans against better corners (Patrick Peterson et al) turn into interceptions- and his scrambling gets him laid out by an equally quick 235 pound lb- disagree there?

Can JF succeed? I hope so. You played the game- disagree Manziel comes into the league with a mile wide target on him opposing defenders would love to take a shot at?

No I don't agree because HaHa Clinton Dix wasn't picking those balls off. And no because Clowney wasn't laying him out when they played South Carolina.

For those of you that might not be huge college fans let me fill you in on something, despite having a couple studs that are 1st round picks Texas A&M isn't some super team. They looked pretty mediocre when Manziel wasn't QB. Talent wise there are better teams than A&M on their schedule and in their league such as Alabama, Auburn, Georgia, Florida, LSU, just to name a few not to mention playing teams like Oklahoma in bowl games. Manziel has seen top notch talent and their are alot of guys that run great 40s that never make it into the nfl.

yes in the nfl every one is a very good player but more than anything its a mental thing that seperates nfl stars like Ray Lewis, Polamalu, Ed Reed, JJ Watt, Richard Sherman is their mental makeup. There are alot of guys that are just as fast as the average nfl players that play on rosters like Florida that wash out because they don't have the mentality to be an nfl player or their stupidity or off the field problems catch up with them but when they play Texas A&M those guys are individual mismatches and they do get chances to make plays on Manziel and they fail spectacuarly. Despite having 2 top linemen drafted in the past 2 years the OLines that Manziel will have to protect him are going to be 100% if not more in the nfl where every guy again is at least at the floor of the highest level where as the rest of A&Ms line wont all be in the NFL in the future. He will have better RBs, better pass blocking running backs, better coaching and more coaching, better TEs, better defense so that he wont have to score 50 points a game and convert every 3rd and 25 because one lost set of downs might cost them the game in some 52-48 shootout which can also lead to safer play with regards to sliding or throwing the ball away. ALOT of that is lost that JFF plays so desperately sometimes because they are in a desperation mode alot of times because their defense was literally one of the worst in BCS league level college football.

Look at that clip where he spins two defenders and passes a bullet for a 3rd and 25 conversion. In the NFL they might not even call that play depending on the score they might just run it and concede a punt or throw a screen or whatever but A&M doesnt have that luxary and Manziel being a winner balls out and puts it all on the line to keep his team in games and win games.

For instance...

2012: 59-57 against Louisana Tech

2013: 49-42 against Alabama; 45-33 against Arkansas; 41-38 against Ole Miss; 45-41 loss to Auburn; 51-41 against Mississippi State; 52-48 against Duke.

I'm tired of people acting like he is made of glass also. Yes the NFL hits hard but the kid hasn't had any major injuries yet so what evidence at all do you have that he can't take a hit other than his size. He isn't some walking bean pole he is a muscular kid for his build. What u know how much milk he drank when he was a kid and know how strong his bones are? You some neurosurgeon that knows how strong his ligaments are? Fact is you don't know anything about if he can or can't take a hit just like you don't know if some 6'6'' QB can take a hit. Some can and some can't just like some small guys can get in there and mix it up.

Manziels running style doesn't lead to alot of big hits in the running game anyways, he slides if he is running head on at someone but if he has an angle to run he is able to use his quickness and nimbleness to avoid big hits. As seen with lots of little guys that make it in the nfl like Darren Sproles they don't take alot of big hits because usually to make the tackle you have to hit fundamentally sound or you will get embarassed because you go for a big hit that makes their job of making you miss easier. Guys like this can even stonewall a defender going for a big hit because they are lower to the ground and use leverage to develer the impact such as Manziel did to alot of guys who were bigger than him in the college level. It's not like a reciever who is going up and defenseless trying to concentrate on tracking the ball and making the catch. This whole injury threat and big hit nonsense is so overblown its ridiculous.

Again, in college there were lots of times when the other 3/5 or 4/5s of the line that aren't all NFL prospects like Matthews were matched up one on one against guys that were GREAT athletes for their positions at Florida, Alabama, Auburn, ect. When those guys won one on one matchups and got into the backfield and had chances to make plays on Manziel, he lit them up in true Johnny Football style and have have no doubt he will do the same in the NFL. He has all the tools and the work ethic as well, but more imporantly he has the It factor which is the mental makeup it takes to be the alpha dog in this game. People say "Michael Vick never sniffed the Super Bowl", well he was the first QB in history to win @ Lambaeu field in the playoffs and took his team to the NFC Championship game thats pretty close, and obviously Vick was an idiot with his off the field stuff and cost himself his prime years but who knows, I personally do think prime Michael Vick on the right team could be a Super Bowl QB. But again this doesn't matter other than to show Johnny Footballs style of play as seen by Vick, Rogers to an extent, Steve Young, can win in the NFL because Manziel is not Vick he is a whole different person who has a different mental makeup AND he is a much more polished and more accurate passer especially than Vick when he was drafted.

I undertand you dont want to get to hyped up because you know what its like to be let down. So if thats the case temper you enthusiam but you don't have to hate on the pick and predict a rash of injuries or interceptions raining down either especially when the reasons are as trivial and overanalyzed things such as him being short (so he must be an injury waiting to happen of course) or "you can't just throw jump balls to Evans" when newsflash several A&M big games they won or lost close such as Bama and Auburn this year they were outmatched at probably 16-18 out of the 22 starting positinos from a physical standpoint and the jump ball to Evans (who despite being a beast athlete is a bit overrated) on 1) what i believe was a third and long and would be a classic "as good as a punt situation" and 2) what was in a game they lost 49-42 a shootout against a school that has them overmatched, EXCEPT for the fact that among the 3-4 positions where A&M might have and advantage their was 1 that they did have a MASSIVE advantage over every team they played in every game they played and that was at the most important position on the field, QB. Again thats how you have a top 5 / top 10 team in the toughest league in the country despite the fact that your defense gives up 31 to rice, 28 to sam houston (mediocre FCS, 33 to Arkansas (3-9; 0-8 in conf), 38 to Ole Miss (8-5; 3-5 in conf), 41 to Miss St (7-6; 3-5 in conf).

great move, low risk / high reward which are the best type of moves outside of guarenteed studs which their aren't that many of. He has battled injuries but its not like he is a walking gimp. He played through a couple and hasn't had any complete seasons wiped out. Since his breakout seasons when he blew up coming off the bench and in overtime (I think it was @KC, could be wrong) he has started 58 out of 73 games. He's missed about 3 games a year on average which if the Browns get even 10-12 games of a healthy Austin's production it will make a big impact on the team. Also, alot of his catches went down when Bryant became the no.1 receiver. Romo locks onto Bryant alot because he is so good and can make amazing plays even if covered. I'm not a big Romo fan and don't want to harp on it too much but I feel if Austin had a better QB he would have been a little more productive the past couple years. Not that Cleveland's QB will outperform Romo THIS season but I do think Austin, being a vet and being pretty steady when he is in the lineup can be a very good weapon for a young QB (whether Hoyer or Manziel) to have. It will definetly help buy a year if Gordon has to sit all 16 games and get the Browns to next season when they will have the draft picks to add some talent as a longer term solution. I think Austin still has a couple decent years left in him even if they are 10-12 game seasons and he has shown that he occassionaly can stay on the field for all the games, again its not like he's just an injury waiting to happen like he's Dan Morgan.

i dont know why its so hard for some to acknowledge new fans. certain players have their own fanbase whats new. Yea if Johnny Football sucks (I personally highly doubt this will happen) they wont be fans for long but if he does well and wins and is with the team for 10 years I'm sure many of the new fans will have plenty of great memories and experiences they wont forget when he retires or changes teams late in his career and if that scenerio plays out im sure the majority of the new fans will keep rooting for the browns after manziel leaves. especially since after all they are gonna develop feelings (no Michael Sam) for other players on the team such as the recievers, line, defense ect as they are exposed to them watching Johnny's games. I'm sure these guys didn't just root for Johnny Football in college I'm sure they were fans of Matthews / Evans all the way down to the walk ons because it's a team game and for the QB to do good the team has to do good. It will be the same way here if Johnny Football is winning games these guys will grow to love the guys that are helping him win and want to support them too as well as develop a loyalty to the fans that they share the experience with. I highly doubt if Johnny Football is successful that the A&M fans (some of the best and most loyal fans out there) will simply abandon their fellow fans that they have met watching games, at bars, online, wherever. It's not like this is some guy coming out of the U or some other bandwagon school the reason these guys are so gung ho on JFF is because they are amongst the most loyal in CFF and I don't know why they wouldn't be great fans to have.

jury is out on little, he doesn't have the mental makeup to be a star player. he is unreliable and has bad hands and makes mental gaffes. i'de prefer to give someone else a chance to prove what they can do rather than running out a guy who we already know what they can do and its not enough.