nmills said:

No im just saying if you get 2 hands on the ball it should be caught. The QB's dont have perfect scenerio's to throw the ball, they throw on the move, while getting hit, and with 300 pounders in there line of sight. You cant expect everythrow to be perfect. Most of the balls that Browns receivers have dropped have been very catchable balls. And its not Just DA, it happened with Quinn as well.

I agree we had drops by BOTH QB's...and I also agree that there have been some VERY CATCHABLE passes dropped. But the media is making is sound like it is ALL on the WR's.

Like I said in the OP...look at the STATS. They have come up with CRITERIA that they go by...and WE used them with IMPUNITY when deriding BE last year...but now that they point the finger on the MEDIA and our QB...we think they don't apply and that the 2 hand rule wins out.

It just isn't that cut and dry.

Do we have an issue with the right side of the OL....yes, we do. Do we have an issue with tipped passes (which is a huge portion on the QB as well), yes we do. Is the QB living in a bubble? No...but to coin your phrase...ISN'T THIS THE NFL???

nmills said:

1. The ball is nose down and below the waste with speed (bad excuse, should be caught)

2. The ball is at the VERY TOP of the receivers reach (finger tips) with speed (Rarely happens, usually receiver miss times jump)

3. The ball hits the receiver as they make their BLIND cut with speed (tough one but if it hits you in the hands, still gotta catch it)

4. The ball is wobbling and unpredictable as it hits the hands (no way to anticipate and get both hands on it) ( is this the NFL?)

5. The ball is BEHIND the receiver, with the receiver running across the formation, and throws with speed (refer to answer on #3)

Let me be a little more fair in my response...

1. Run across your yard as fast as you can and try to pick up an empty pail without tripping (with both hands)...now try and do it when somebody throws it to you....now try it when they GUN it at you. Which is MOST LIKELY to fail?

2. Try jumping up and touching something at the top of your reach (you will miss from time to time)...now try it with a moving object (try a fan blade)....now try to hit a specific blade on HIGH SPEED. Which is MOST LIKELY to fail?

3. Try standing with your back to your friend about 5 or 10 yards apart. Have him say now and lob a ball at you. Now try it with him throwing it hard...then finally try it when you are counting to 5 and hoping he is counting the same speed. Which is MOST LIKELY to fail?

4. Do you really have no idea why such a high premium is placed on QB's that throw a tight spiral???

5. Try facing to your right, then reaching behind you with 2 hands and catching a ball. Now try it running. Now try it running as fast as you can AND with the ball coming at you FAST. Which is MOST LIKELY to fail?

Just because as a WR you were able to overcome MOST of the QB's bad placement/timing and got your hands on the ball doesn't mean you are automatically going to be able to hang onto it.

And I didn't even bring in the concept of shoulder pads, and 250lb LB's hitting you as you try to catch it...or sidelines...or double teams....

nmills said:

1. The ball is nose down and below the waste with speed (bad excuse, should be caught)

2. The ball is at the VERY TOP of the receivers reach (finger tips) with speed (Rarely happens, usually receiver miss times jump)

3. The ball hits the receiver as they make their BLIND cut with speed (tough one but if it hits you in the hands, still gotta catch it)

4. The ball is wobbling and unpredictable as it hits the hands (no way to anticipate and get both hands on it) ( is this the NFL?)

5. The ball is BEHIND the receiver, with the receiver running across the formation, and throws with speed (refer to answer on #3)

wow...you must have glue on iron fingers and telepathy to know exactly where the pass is at all times...not to mention perfect timing (which you obviously don't require from your QB)

@maintainin125 said:

If a receiver in the NFL gets two hands on the ball, the ball should be caught point blank period. No matter how hard it is thrown these guys are getting too much money. Maybe u should watch some film on John Elway or Brett Favre in their prime two of the strongest armed qbs ever. There receivers caught the ball and please dont say the balls were thrown perfectly cause your fooling yourself.

both have ACCURACY! An ACCURATELY thrown fastball is catchable...but an INACCURATE fastball is through to the screens...and in this case, 'dropped'.

And not once have I said a QB has to be PERFECT. But rather it is a COMBINATION of issues that is the problem. Elway and Favre are both MASTERS at leading a receiver on slants. They were also both very good at PUTTING AIR under a pass when necessary...and TAKING A LITTLE OFF on the short passes.

People love to point out big armed QB's with success as an excuse for current big armed QB's that are NOT successful...but fail to realize that those guys also had touch and finesse. Otherwise, they would all be Jeff George's (happens to be whom I like our current guy to).

As for two hands...that I agree with you on...and that is what I used to come up with my 7-10 drops. Any more than that and you are counting finger tips, out of bounds passes, and diving almost got its.

@bandwagon said:

Who cares what the "Media" say... How many passes did you see dropped in the last 2 games?

I would say between 7-10 for the last 2 games...but NOT 16.

Still, too high.

@destinfunk said:

and whats the issue with them buying time?...no point in this team dumping 11 mill more into bad QBs ..wait it out

I actually agree with it...why put the team in a position where they can't dump quinn if he fails...or have to pay him huge even if he is mediocre.

nmills said:

Everybody judges dropped passes differently. For me if it hit you in the hands it should be caught, weather its low, high, to the side if it hits you in the hands you gotta catch it. Not everybody beleives that, thats why theres different opinions on catchable and non catchable balls

I bet every QB that has ever lived would agree with you (or at least WANT to agree with you)...but here is the reality.

Passes are often TOUCHED by the hands despite never having a real chance of being caught.

1. The ball is nose down and below the waste with speed

2. The ball is at the VERY TOP of the receivers reach (finger tips) with speed

3. The ball hits the receiver as they make their BLIND cut with speed

4. The ball is wobbling and unpredictable as it hits the hands (no way to anticipate and get both hands on it)

5. The ball is BEHIND the receiver, with the receiver running across the formation, and throws with speed

these are just a few...and note the WITH SPEED comment.

A ball thrown low can be caught much more readily if it has touch....same goes for a top pass (look at Eli Manning's pass in the SB caught on the guys head...notice it was NOT zipped)...same goes for a receiver coming out of a blind cut as it gives them time to react...and with a ball BEHIND the receiver as well, as they can make an adjustment.

Even though a receiver can make adjustments to any pass, the ability to make them AND do it quickly enough for a ball without touch..it adds up to the receiver is being asked to do it all and the QB is getting the benefit of the doubt.

How much nicer if he actually put some TOUCH on it...or had some ACCURACY...EITHER ONE please. But lacking BOTH equals drops (or in my opinion, uncatchable passes...and apparently my opinion is shared by the statisticians).

I have been reading all the articles about how many passes the Browns receivers have dropped...and I find it interesting that what the ARTICLES are claiming doesn't jive with what the STATS are showing.

For example...the ARTICLES claim that the Browns have had a MINIMUM of 16 drops over the past two weeks alone. In fact, several have attributed at least 6 dropped passes to MoMass during those two games.

Now, compare that with one of the best sites for dropped passes (washingtonpost.com).

It shows of the top AFC pass dropping players, that we have 4 guys with 3 or more drops:

Royal 5

Stuckey 5

Momass 4

Harrison 3

That is for THE ENTIRE SEASON!!!

So, according to the UNINFORMED, AGENDA DRIVEN mass media...the Browns have 16 drops in just two games...but according to NFL STAT GUYS (who accurately had BE with 16 drops last year), the Browns TOP FOUR OFFENDERS only have 17 TOTAL over 6 games. That is mathematically impossible.

Add into this, the MEDIA has MoMass with 6 in just two games...but the STAT GUYS have him with 4 for the season.

What I am getting at is that we are hearing a lot of crap about our receiving corp that is just not analytical. It is opinion driven...and makes no sense at all.

So, unless you want to call into question EVERY OTHER TEAMS DROP STATS (by the way, Carson Palmer's top 4 guys have 15 drops so far...and he still completes 59.1% of his passes and has a QBR of 78.3), you have to admit that the MEDIA has blown this dropped passes thing completely out of proportion.

Of course, it doesn't help when Daboll and Mangini are feeding the fire...it almost feels like they are buying DA time to get past NEXT WEEK!?!?!

Why Maiava is getting the press for replacing Jackson has been a HUGE issue...

Where is Veikune? Is he a bust? etc...

Well, here are a couple tidbits about that situation I found interesting:

(On how he will adjust the defense without having D'Qwell Jackson)- "We have a couple different options. I actually thought that Kaluka (Maiava) did a pretty nice job for his first extended exposure inside. David Bowens started last year inside, five games, so he's played there. Jason has played there some, Jason Trusnik. Barton can play with MIKE or WILL, so that gives us some flexibility, depending on if you wanted to go with a bigger guy or wanted to go with a not as big guy. It gives us some flexibility there, just because he's played both spots."

So you see that Veikune was mentioned...but I noticed a the comment about Barton playing the MIKE or WILL...and wondered at that...

(On why he did not include David Veikune in the list of players who could play inside linebacker)- "I made a mistake, Tony (Grossi). I should have added him to that list as well. David's made a lot of progress inside, playing the MIKE. Because he's been there, I didn't think to list him with the group."

and then...

(On why he moved David Veikune from defensive end to inside linebacker)- "I saw a lot of parallels with him and (Tedy) Bruschi, in terms of body type, in terms of the ability to rush from an inside position, which is unique in itself. Tedy in 2000, when he first moved inside, [there was] quite a bit of transition, because it is. It's a different world. Once he got used to it, he was very effective. I'm not saying that the lines are going to follow exactly the same way, I'm just saying body type, past experience, speed, the ability to come up and take on guards, all those things I thought David would do a real nice job with. Even height, some of that, [inside linebackers] tend to be not quite as tall as the outside [line]backers."

(On why Maiava went in during the second half at Pittsburgh instead of Veikune)- "Kaluka plays the WILL and that's what D'Qwell plays. It was the easiest, based on the reps that we had allocated during practice. It was the progression that we had set, if something happened to D'Qwell. [They play] the same position."

(On if Veikune will get reps at WILL)- "No, what I was saying is could move Barton to WILL and Veikune to MIKE. Barton's played both. He's advanced enough where he could play either at any point."

(On if it is disappointing that Veikune has not gotten many defensive reps during games since he was as second round pick)- "No, not necessarily. As we've talked about before, everybody develops differently. That's not an easy spot. You have to be able to get in, run the huddle. You have to be able to call out all the adjustments. You have to be able to make all the run-pass reads. There's a lot of stuff going on there. It is a big transition going from end to that spot, but you have to do it at some point. I thought the value of him getting that experience, working at that spot, looking at it, again, short term and long term, thought that would be best for his development."

I would LOVE for us to have a Tedy Bruschi...so am willing to wait for Veikune to develop.

Below are all the FA's the Browns will have over the next 2 seasons. I have bolded the current starters.

2010 (16 total, 6 starters)

LB Blake Costanzo (RFA)

K Phil Dawson

S Abram Elam

TE Greg Estandia

WR Mike Furrey

TE Michael Gaines

RG Rex Hadnot

RB Jerome Harrison

LB D'Qwell Jackson

S Brodney Pool

DB Hank Poteat

QB Brett Ratliff (ERFA)

WR Syndric Steptoe (RFA)

LB Jason Trusnik

RT Ryan Tucker

FB Lawrence Vickers

2011 (13 total, 6 starters)

QB Derek Anderson

C Hank Fraley

DB Gerard Lawson (RFA)

RB Jamal Lewis

CB Brandon McDonald

DE CJ Mosley

QB Brady Quinn

DE Robaire Smith

DB Nick Sorensen

WR Chansi Stuckey

LB Kamerion Wimbley

CB Eric Wright

P Dave Zastudil

At this point, there are 29 total FA's over the next 2 years...and 12 of them are current starters. Of those that are starters, I would like to retain as starters are the following:

Phil Dawson

Kamerion Wimbley

Brodney Pool

Lawrence Vickers

D'Qwell Jackson

Dave Zastudil

Eric Wright

Guys that I think are good rotational players are:

Blake Costanzo

Jerome Harrison

Jason Trusnik

Hank Fraley

Brandon McDonald

With just those moves, we will have turned over 5 starters and 17 total players in just 2 years. That is not even including trades and demotions of NON FA players.

The Browns do not need to actively burn the team down...they just need to let the natural replacement of players take place over the next 2 seasons and we will likely see about a 50% turnover. Considering the amount of FA's this coming off-season...watch for a VERY ACTIVE front office.

I know we have been patting ourselves on the back for the lack of QB threads...but I guess I just couldn't resist. Point of fact, though, is that the real issue I am trying to address is the DECISIONS, not the actual QB's.

First, the competition. I actually think that Mangini truly believed that a competition would bring out the BEST in one or both of the QB's. He tried very hard (on the surface at least) to make things equal in repetitions and game situations.....I really can't blame him for the fact that NEITHER really stepped up to win the starting slot.

Second, Quinn starting the season. Let's face it...they had to turn the keys over...and with the better stats (although not really good) in pre-season...Quinn won the job. The stats, combined with the fact that he was an unknown commodity, made it difficult NOT to give him the start. Unfortunately....

Third, the PULLING of Quinn. This is probably one of the most scrutinized moves this year. WHY would you pull a young 1st round QB in only his 3rd game??? I for one don't believe he was set up to fail...he just did. I mean, if he came in and killed it, we would be talking about MANGENIOUS....not worrying about our 2nd win. Anyway, here is a possible answer: 9.8 to 8.9 to 5.7 What is that you ask? That is the YARDS PER CATCH. Each week Quinn was still completing passes...but the LENGTH of the passes were going down. With all the checkdowns...you would anticipate low sack totals...but in 10 quarters he was sacked 10 times. Now, I am not blaming all the sacks on Quinn...but something just doesn't jive there. I looked back at the games some...and what I saw was a QB that was THINKING....he wasn't checking down FAST...he was holding onto the ball trying to DECIDE if the first option was open....then second guessing himself and checking down and dumping the ball off....in effect, holding on to the ball too long (taking sacks) and still not pulling the trigger. A QB cannot second guess himself...and Quinn was falling into that trap. He HAD to be pulled.

Fourth, DA keeping the start...we are ALL frustrated at this point. DA is putting on EPIC amounts of STINK! So why is DA still starting??? Well, there are 2 reasons IMHO...and one of them IS FINANCIAL. The PRIMARY reason, however, is that this team is still not in a position that will allow a QB with a shaken psyche to come in and succeed. If there is one thing this organization does not want to do is revisit Couch. The hope here is that as the OL gels...and the young RB's and WR's get in step...the surrounding talent will be there later in the season. The SECOND reason...is the finances. Quinn is a CHEAP QB at $700k per year if he doesn't hit his escalators. If he does, he starts getting paid as a franchise type QB. The Browns have NO IDEA if he is a franchise QB...and don't want to be forced into a decision based on that question in the off-season. He would be IMPOSSIBLE to move with that salary if we want to dump him...and he would be IMPOSSIBLE to keep if he didn't just light up the field. So, they wait until the bye week (or the second half of the Chicago game...he can't make the escalators at that point). This does several things. It gives him time to become more attuned to the new receivers...it gives him more time to overcome the issues he had at the beginning of the season...and it prevents him from having to perform at a TOP level to be retained.

It seems to me that the Browns brass are counting on keeping Quinn at the current low pay rate for next year. He will either be a cheap starter (if he does well in the second half) or a well priced backup (if he doesn't show much). The Browns can then renegotiate the contract if Quinn becomes the starting calibre QB they hoped for.

Dawgfanforever88 said:

Lol, how many of the posts on this board now are about DA or BQ one maybe two the number has dropped significantly since they left. Not saying they were entirely at fault but I think everyone was to blame for the situation that was going on here.

Actually, I think that is part of the problem we had here. If anyone started a post dissecting the issue on the QB, it turned into a name calling bash thread within seconds. So, the lack of posts about it just means nobody is willing to discuss them. Not saying one person or another is to blame for it...but if you can't even discuss a subject without it flaming out...and it is a MAJOR subject...it stops being fun.

I have been looking at both boards...with the limited time I now have due to work, I am posting less than ever before...but I am on BOTH!

I refuse to get into the he said she said stuff on either board...because there are excellent posters on both sites.

I still have no idea what actually occurred, but I can tell you that to me a Browns fan is a Browns fan and I will never bash anyone for their personal likes or opinions.

A lot of people seem to still think this was all about the QB situation...and while I know I said that I don't know what was at the root of the split, I can tell you that the QB situation WAS NOT IT!

Since the split, NEITHER board is jumping up and down proclaiming EITHER QB....so it tells me that there was some intentional antagonism going on...and no, I have no idea who was behind it or why....but suffice to say that it seems both boards are better off for it at this time.

I hope to be able to continue to post in both places, as I appreciate everyone's opinions and there is definitely a different 'style' between the two...so...

Enjoy! And thanks for keeping me around.

if I had seen this earlier...I would TOTALLY have been HAD

@wpb-dawg-fan said:

Now for his first draft for NE and BB...

2nd round, 46th overall: Adrian Klemm - 4yrs with NE, only 1 as a starter (G)

3rd rd, 76th overall: JR Redmond - 3yrs with NE, 0 as starter (RB)

4th rd, 127th overall: Greg Randall - 3yrs with NE, 1 as starter (T)

5th rd, 141st overall: Dave Stachelski - 2yrs with NE, 0 as starter (TE)

5th rd, 161st overall: Jeff Marriott - total bust (DT)

6th rd, 187nd overall: Antwan Harris - 4yrs with NE, 0 as starter (DB)

6th rd, 199nd overall: Tom Brady - to discuss later

6th rd, 201st overall: David Nugent - 2yrs with NE, 0 as starter (DE)

7th rd, 226th overall: Casey Tisdale - total bust (DE)

7th rd, 239th overall: Patrick Pass - 7yrs with NE, 0 as starter

Other than Tom Brady, BB had 9 total picks and only 7 made the team...and only 1 was with the team after 4 years....and he was a ST's guy. As of now, from the 2000 draft, Tom Brady is the ONLY active player in the league. Not great success now was it.

Now, to discuss the GENIUS of drafting Tom Brady.

First, he was a THROW IN PICK in the 6th round...in fact he wasn't even the FIRST pick of the 6th round for BB.

Second, Tom Brady sat out his entire first year behind Bledsoe...and the only reason he got into a game in year 2 was because Bledsoe was bleeding into his lungs....so he was basically passed over by BB then too.

Third, this is what TB was surrounded by:

RB: Antowain Smith, 1st rd, 23rd pick

FB: Marc Edwards, 2nd rd, 55th pick

WR: Troy Brown, 8 year veteran, pro bowler

WR: David Patten, yeah, the guy we tried out here

TE: Rod Ruttlidge, 2nd rd, 54th pick

LT: Matt Light - 2nd rd, 48th pick

LG: Mike Compton - 3rd rd, 68th pick

Damien Woody - 1st rd, 17th pick

RG: Joe Andruzzi - yeah, again, recent Brown

RT: Greg Randall - 4th rd, 127th pick

That was a VERY TALENTED offense young Tom Brady stepped into. He was placed into a PERFECT situation for a young guy to gain his confidence...and it shows by his career.

I have said it often...the protection and system are as much to credit as Tom Brady (whom I consider a system QB....just look at Cassel for evidence).

Again, my reason for this is....Mangini has done a HELL of a lot better in THIS draft than BB did back in 2000 (his 6th draft)...and has seen the benefits of surrounding a young QB with talent before deciding to discard him....so, do not count EITHER of our QB's as history just yet.

RG:

Wow....the more I look at the draft of BB in his first year at NE, the more I think of how AWFUL it was. If not for an injury to Bledsoe....Brady would likely never have seen the field...and the ONLY player that BB would have ended up with for more than 4 years would have been a ST's guy!!!

Compare that to what we have here this year in Mangini's first draft.

Guaranteed Starters:

Mack

MoMass

Probably Starters:

Veikune

Robiskie

Davis

Special Teams Guy:

Maiava

Am I forgetting anyone?

Now for his first draft for NE and BB...

2nd round, 46th overall: Adrian Klemm - 4yrs with NE, only 1 as a starter (G)

3rd rd, 76th overall: JR Redmond - 3yrs with NE, 0 as starter (RB)

4th rd, 127th overall: Greg Randall - 3yrs with NE, 1 as starter (T)

5th rd, 141st overall: Dave Stachelski - 2yrs with NE, 0 as starter (TE)

5th rd, 161st overall: Jeff Marriott - total bust (DT)

6th rd, 187nd overall: Antwan Harris - 4yrs with NE, 0 as starter (DB)

6th rd, 199nd overall: Tom Brady - to discuss later

6th rd, 201st overall: David Nugent - 2yrs with NE, 0 as starter (DE)

7th rd, 226th overall: Casey Tisdale - total bust (DE)

7th rd, 239th overall: Patrick Pass - 7yrs with NE, 0 as starter

Other than Tom Brady, BB had 9 total picks and only 7 made the team...and only 1 was with the team after 4 years....and he was a ST's guy. As of now, from the 2000 draft, Tom Brady is the ONLY active player in the league. Not great success now was it.

Now, to discuss the GENIUS of drafting Tom Brady.

First, he was a THROW IN PICK in the 6th round...in fact he wasn't even the FIRST pick of the 6th round for BB.

Second, Tom Brady sat out his entire first year behind Bledsoe...and the only reason he got into a game in year 2 was because Bledsoe was bleeding into his lungs....so he was basically passed over by BB then too.

Third, this is what TB was surrounded by:

RB: Antowain Smith, 1st rd, 23rd pick

FB: Marc Edwards, 2nd rd, 55th pick

WR: Troy Brown, 8 year veteran, pro bowler

WR: David Patten, yeah, the guy we tried out here

TE: Rod Ruttlidge, 2nd rd, 54th pick

LT: Matt Light - 2nd rd, 48th pick

LG: Mike Compton - 3rd rd, 68th pick

Damien Woody - 1st rd, 17th pick

RG: Joe Andruzzi - yeah, again, recent Brown

RT: Greg Randall - 4th rd, 127th pick

That was a VERY TALENTED offense young Tom Brady stepped into. He was placed into a PERFECT situation for a young guy to gain his confidence...and it shows by his career.

I have said it often...the protection and system are as much to credit as Tom Brady (whom I consider a system QB....just look at Cassel for evidence).

Again, my reason for this is....Mangini has done a HELL of a lot better in THIS draft than BB did back in 2000 (his 6th draft)...and has seen the benefits of surrounding a young QB with talent before deciding to discard him....so, do not count EITHER of our QB's as history just yet.

RG:

@dawgpound3 said:

Bill Belichick.

DING DING DING...we have a winner!!!

My point? Give Mangini a year or two (or 6) like Belichick had (and look at how he turned out).

@brownb499 said:

Gotta be Jeff Fisher never seen a team so bipolar

Another good guess, but nope.

@clevelandfanforlife said:

jim mora jr?

Nice try...but nope.

Year Coaching

1st yr: 7-9

2nd yr: 7-9

3rd yr: 6-10

4th yr: 11-5

5th yr: 5-11

6th yr: 5-11

Amazing record (41-55). 5 out of 6 of his first seasons were losing seasons...and he is still coaching!!!