Baker Mayfield

Dutch Oven

@westside-steve said:

So might as will guarantee it right?

WSS

I think they'll win one, maybe two more games, honestly.

But if they were to go 0-5, with or without Baker, it wouldn't shock me.

nickers

For all of you HATERS of #6!... Be careful what you wish for... You just might get QB Purgatory...

Icecube

@dutch-oven said:

He has a torn labrum.

That isn't getting better without surgery. No amount of rest is helping it.

Ah, but rest could help heal his bum knee, groin, heel and whatever else is hurting. He is obviously more beat up than just the shoulder.

Icecube

@nickers said:

For all of you HATERS of #6!... Be careful what you wish for... You just might get QB Purgatory...

I mostly agree with the video, especially about the part where Baker should be paid around $30 mill per year, a sum that would pay him more than any other team would, yet not wreck the Brown's ability to keep/add more talent. Baker's wife said that he changed the entire culture of the team; if he even partly did, he deserves a new deal. The one difference between he and Brees is, Drew was never as cocky as Baker; I'll leave that to others on whether that is a good thing or not.

Westside Steve

This might be the same video as the one that gives the video not available Flash. If so here it is again

WSS

tiamat63

@ 5:05 in that tape from Warner is the flood I broke down that was a good design and a good read/throw by Baker.

Sounds silly, but I feel very great about my analysis when I see things a HoF is also seeing.

calfoxwc

@westside-steve said:

This might be the same video as the one that gives the video not available Flash. If so here it is again

WSS

this is excellent stuff. I do have my own observation - about Baker's 4 step drop back instead of 3. Baker has a foot injury, so maybe? he can't forcefully use that foot to make the initial step, so he used his right foot instead. Outside of that, pretty convincing appraisal by an expert.

Flugel

@tiamat63 said:

@ 5:05 in that tape from Warner is the flood I broke down that was a good design and a good read/throw by Baker.

Sounds silly, but I feel very great about my analysis when I see things a HoF is also seeing.

I know what you mean. I said the same thing when Blutarsky said "was it over when the Germans bombed Pearl Harbor?"

tiamat63

@flugel said:

I know what you mean. I said the same thing when Blutarsky said "was it over when the Germans bombed Pearl Harbor?"

"Germans?"....

"Forget it, he's rolling".

Flugel

@calfoxwc said:

this is excellent stuff. I do have my own observation - about Baker's 4 step drop back instead of 3. Baker has a foot injury, so maybe? he can't forcefully use that foot to make the initial step, so he used his right foot instead. Outside of that, pretty convincing appraisal by an expert.

Believe it or not, Josh Heupel added steps to the QB dropback from the shotgun formation at Oklahoma. This leads me to wonder when this habit actually evolved with Baker. If it's not a great thing for the NFL as we've witnessed on many occasions - it shouldn't be impossible to coach Baker out of that habit.

I don't ever see any of our coaches on game day taking a seat next to Baker in between series to adjust. Think about NE in comparison, whoever starts/started at QB there has OC Josh McDaniel reviewing overheads and discussing adjustments in between series. That even included a veteran like Tom Brady. Even though Baker is in his 4th year - this isn't exactly his 1st, 2nd, 3rd or 4th different offense/OC. For some reason, now that Stefanski has his dream job title of HC - he only wants to be an OC while I see a bunch of areas of the team that need better coaching. Why not get Alex Van Pelt down on the sidelines to work with Baker when things go wrong on game day? Seems a lot better than waiting until Monday and then sweeping it under the rug as part of another rinse and repeat.

Gorka

At 8:45 it demonstrates Bakers lack of field awareness.

He's focused entirely on Landry as Hooper breaks open. There was no need to double clutch.

Pause it at 9:29. How the fuck does anyone not see that?

tiamat63

@gorka said:

At 8:45 it demonstrates Bakers lack of field awareness.

He's focused entirely on Landry as Hooper breaks open. There was no need to double clutch.

Pause it at 9:29. How the fuck does anyone not see that?

I have both those plays along with a couple more broken down and sitting on my desktop. Out watching the HOU-CIN game now, I'll post them later.

tiamat63

Far be it from me to argue with a HoF QB, but I don't think he's watched all the games of Baker that I have. There's no way given his videos. Because sample size means... so very much. You wouldn't believe Peyton Manning would be a future HoF QB based on a couple games his rookie season when he set the rookie QB INT record. Likewise you wouldn't/won't be able to have a better command of the shortcomings that plague the Browns 2021 season without watching ALL of their games.

There are plays in that video I noticed Kurt simply glossed over for reasons I still don't understand? BAD plays too... shit that would be a red flag and speaks to some of the themes I've been mentioning. I get he doesn't believe that everything is Baker's fault, but he almost made it sound like the things that were within his control could be excused. Sadly, a lot of them cannot. Theme's from the Ravens game showed up like themes from previous bad games.

- Bakers pre-determination of his throws, especially to the boundary

- His pension for leading receivers into traffic

- Not reading obvious pre-snap and post snap defensive cue's.

Example 1.

One of the man-beaters Stef called up. You get a trio stack to the field and some obvious man coverage tips pre-snap. But I get you can't lock on pre-snap. So you double check a couple things like high safety alignment (inside hash but favoring near side) Point man (DB on the trio lead) and who is picking up Hunt should he release.

The man beater is a sort of mesh concept. It creates a nature pick against man coverage AND - Kareem releases across the face of Baker. So the Backer that was previous to his right has declared man coverage. Safety is still high and outside your primary with DB's playing the pick poorly and not "leveling" their coverages correctly.

The problem is how LONG Baker held onto this ball for.

When I say that ball should be OUT, I mean as in the windup should have started and zipped. This would allow for MAX YAC in a game that would come down to a score.

You'll notice the 2 DB's that carried the vertical route? The ball being out on time allows for max YAC because their eyes aren't back and in recovery to limit damage.

Instead the ball comes out late and is caught just outside the numbers.

The 2 DB's that were carrying vertical got their eyes back, and are already driving to the sticks.

It was a first down and again, I can't argue with results. But Kurt in the video linked in his very first play complimented Baker's choice of hitting a slant/curl combo. BUT, even though he gave Baker a compliment, noticed the timing was rather "meh". Even in ok plays, there are still things that show they need cleaning up. This is in that exact same line of thinking. This sort of thing could take an ok play and allow max expected yards. This just isn't operating the offense to your fullest potential on this design.

What's worse is that it isn't a vertical throw, so it's hard to say "Baker can't throw deep, he's hurt". Sure. This is all with Bakers eyes and mind, and they're not a fast as a HOF QB would prefer to see at this time. That's the "gist" I'm feeling from Warner when he says things like that. Or as coach Saban said "You compliment the car, but don't see the oil leak that we do".

tiamat63

A few more that REALLY bother me.

The high throw and drop by DPJ early? Never had to be that way.

Baker had a rollout with double TE to that side right in front of him and a Corner + Safety that had thrown a bracket on DPJ. Hoop looked back for the throw, before this frame Njoku looked up field for someone to block before looking back expecting the ball to go to Hoop.

Yes, reads dominantly go deep to short. But this is an example of making the game harder than it has to be. This is a convoy in front of you with a big lane opening for, what would likely have been, a HUGE early TD utilizing close space and the short passing game.

Instead, Baker plants and fires back across field to the far side hash. Ball arrives high and the DB gets a good hit before DPJ can reel the ball into his body for security.

tiamat63

3 of 4. This sort of foreshadows what Gorka mentioned above with things Kurt didn't bring up. But Juice was in the backfield earlier and Baker didn't utilize him.

He gets motioned from the trio to a split to the right just outside of the RT. Buckeye fans, this should look familiar. Google "shot-Ginn" from 2004, 2005 and 2006. This isn't some radical concept. Giving a receiver quick in short space a free release is always the goal regardless of the formation. The motion brought along no DB, so this would tend to tip off some type of zone coverage.

Baker getting locked into the boundary (again) to Chubb. His read to this side isn't terrible, that isn't a problem I suppose. He wants Chubb to the flat before the linebacker can zone expand and pick him up. Makes sense, should be an easy pitch and catch...

Except instead of making a routine and easy short throw. Baker doesn't set his feet, doesn't square, nothing. He drifts back, gives a slight hop and uses his arm like a trebuchet. Because of this, his hips over rotate along with the rest of his torso. So instead of the ball being in an ideal place for your RB who isn't the most gifted athlete in this sense... You've given him a rock and a hard place.

The ball ends up high and wide.... AfuckingGain.

Only Baker knows it because he does this little dance and chest tap.

At the bottom I highlighted that Landry got picked up by the safety while the low hole defender drifted to his right (Bakers left) leaving a lot of useable space underneath and to Bakers right. Go back and check my previous posts... notice I mention Baker just doesn't utilize all that is given to him? Bryant up the seam on square in to his right against cover 2 is just another example in a long line of either pre-determinations and/or bad throws. The safety is going to give Juice space out of the backfield because nobody checked him on his release. Free release is a WR and QB's dream.

tiamat63

4 of 4 The House call that wasn't.

Pre-determination. This is, in a nutshell, what I'm talking about.

Pre-snap Baker is convinced he has man coverage the whole way. You can't blame him in a sense, Ravens showed man coverage a good deal to this point. But you also know they love to poker bluff you and invite throws into coverage. Post snap is everything. If you make a good pre-snap read, your post snap will justify that mindfulness.

The yellow highlights what I believe Baker thought, the red shows a 2 zone if that boundary safety drops. Also shows cover 1 being possible if that field safety shades just inside the hash. Could be a split field coverage as well like qtr/qtr/half (cover 6) Point being, you're not psychic. You don't know until you know.

Instead... Well... yeah. The WHOLE way.

Bakers eyes never left this.

Baker gripped and ripped this out/curl to DPJ without even so much as a 2nd thought. Instead of it being man coverage, it looks like some form of quarters.

Qtrs assignments.

Now I admit giving it a 3rd look before posting, that could be cover 6 because the boundary CB is playing cover 2 rules - he's getting hands on the WR, routing him inside then getting eyes back and trailing underneath him. Either way, my point still stands. Marlon was a flat expand in either C6 or quarters and Baker never bothered to read what was offered to him. Instead of finding Juice open on the safety who was reading him as the #2 and driving on the route. You can tell from the voided space all Baker has to do is anticipate this window after a read and fire into voided space to possibly have a shot at moving the chains.

But Baker bombs one.... WAIT FOR IT... HIGH AND WIDE.

Actually, of all the times Baker has done this, this was the best time. Because if this throw was anywhere inside on where his intended target was, Marlon Humphrey is grabbing it and walking it all the way back to the crib.

I know you guys don't want to hear this, but the Browns have a QB problem at the moment. Sure, like Kurt said, it isn't ALL on Baker. But the bulk of it is. The tackles HAVE to be elite because of the space and depth he requires in the pocket. So you need amazing protection in comparison to other QB's that don't require his vision for throwing lanes. You need tall targets with insane catch radius because Baker has a documented history of missing high and or high/wide. You need a Shanahan play caller who is football genius to cover up the smells of Bakers questionable reads. Things he does FAR too often to be labeled an elite QB.

Most of you are twice my age. I was raised on stories of Bernie being a brilliant QB. A QB who overcame his wonky throwing motion and ostrich physical measurements by being smart and accurate. Baker is quite literally his polar opposite right now. Mayfield has a ridiculously live arm, but (as of typing this) absolute SHIT for brains, eyes and ball placement.

There is no whiny ass podcast you can link with a dumb rant from some nerd, or anyone else that hasn't watched 4 years worth of games who ISN'T giving you this type of analysis that should be convincing you otherwise. Baker is the majority of this teams issue as of right now. *shrug*

Dutch Oven

And this is the stretch run of Baker's second season under Stefanski.

It is going to be very interesting to see how the Browns handle Baker's impending free agency.

The continued insistence of the coaching staff and Berry that Baker is healthy enough to play almost makes a person think that privately they all have concluded that a lot of the production problems stem from his limitations, and not his injuries.

calfoxwc

Baker is hurt. But he could still make things happen if he had more than one wr who is able to regular get open.

Peyton Manning wasn't very mobile - I don't believe HE could get our wr's open (except for Landry).

Again - I posted where Barfsonhisblooger was missing open recievers, etc etc.

Wr's not being up to par is not an excuse. It's a fact. (except for Landry, lol).

Baker is part of the problem mostly because he has injuries. But it isn't all on him.

BTW, Kurt Warner is a nerd?

This coaching staff knows their football - it's a complicated team game. They are learning what they can and can't do. I still say they went with Baker with injuries because he is best able to make good with the wr's they have - but I would have started Case Keenum.

Now, Keenum - Stefanski KNOWS him. and they start Baker. I don't get that.

But saying it's mostly on Baker is dumb. I guess the huge win over Cincy was not all on Baker?

Simply put - the ravens shut down the run, and played a lot of man to man because the Browns receivers are not

scary. So, Hance was having trouble with the all out pass rush, he plays on the right side, and Hooper was open on the right side.

I just think if any of us were standing in Baker's place, we wouldn't have seen Hooper either.

Remember the Browns-Bengals score? 41-16? Huge Browns win? Same Baker. Different defense. Our wide receivers could get open.

Browns-Cincy - Chubb had 137 yards rushing. Vs the ratbirds, Chubb had sixteen yards rushing.

Passing vs Cincy?

D. Peoples-Jones	2	86	1	60	3
N. Chubb	2	26	0	23	2
H. Bryant	2	26	0	21	2
D. Felton	1	22	0	22	1
D. Njoku	1	18	1	18	3
A. Schwartz	1	15	0	15	1
A. Hooper	2	14	0	11	2
J. Landry	3	11	0	7	5

Landry, vs the ratbirds - was targeted ten times - could only catch 6 - for 111 yards.

Meanwhile, I don't believe Wills is playing at 100%. Conklin is out.

Simply put - the ratbirds have a secondary that can cover the Browns wr's, the Bengals could not, even while not stacking the box.

Replacing Baker does not solve the wr problem - and the Browns coaches know that.

lodilobo

There's a double standard here, and it's fueled by the media. I guess Mayfield's attitude just rubs people the wrong way. Looking at the stats, and comparing him to Lamar Jackson proves this. Mayfield has had 4 games with a qb rating over 100, Jackson has 1. Mayfield's qb rating for the season is higher than Jackson's and has been that way all season. Yet, these dumb ass commentators and so called experts still consider lamar Jackson "elite". I don't see it. He's an exceptional running back who is very elusive and can out run the defense. He's really not a very good qb. Baker isn't stupid...he knows he's being tagged unfairly as a mediocre qb. He has a fragile ego, and he's starting to believe this crap himself. I just hope he can find his way back to playing at the level he's capable of.

nickers

@lodilobo said:

There's a double standard here, and it's fueled by the media. I guess Mayfield's attitude just rubs people the wrong way. Looking at the stats, and comparing him to Lamar Jackson proves this. Mayfield has had 4 games with a qb rating over 100, Jackson has 1. Mayfield's qb rating for the season is higher than Jackson's and has been that way all season. Yet, these dumb ass commentators and so called experts still consider lamar Jackson "elite". I don't see it. He's an exceptional running back who is very elusive and can out run the defense. He's really not a very good qb. Baker isn't stupid...he knows he's being tagged unfairly as a mediocre qb. He has a fragile ego, and he's starting to believe this crap himself. I just hope he can find his way back to playing at the level he's capable of.

This is where Kevin Stefanski and AVP have to prove themselves as caretakers of the QB and his development.. They are , or can be just as responsible for the growth of a player as the player himself.. This is where they earn their paycheck so to speak... It goes deeper than what happens on gameday...

Also... At the risk of sounding racist.. I will also say... The NFL and Roger "Creampuff" Goodell and the Woke seem hell bent on glorifying the Black athlete just to appease them...