Brady Quinn sucks and always has! Can we please put Derek Anderson back in.
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DA doesn't get sacked because he stands in the pocket (this is a good trait by the way) lets his O-line do their jobs and gets 2 more seconds to throw than BQ does. This makes the O-line's job much, much easier. When your back is turned to your QB and he bails out of the pocket too soon, the guy you are engaged with changes direction and angles towards your QB and you don't know where he is anymore, and so you either have to hold or let your guy go. If you know where your QB is going to be, you can hold your blocks accordingly, giving your QB another second or two of time. This is why I say he looks "panicked" like Frye. He can't sit still. He must improve on this, soon.
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Guess who else's job gets more difficult when the QB leaves the pocket? The defense.
1. They now have a moving target for the pass rush rather than just running at the tallest stationary thing on the field.
2. The DB's world just got turned upside down.
Don't believe me? Get one of the Stooler Pukes to tell you the name of their Quarterback, then maybe do a quick Google search.
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Guess who else's job gets more difficult when the QB leaves the pocket? The defense.
1. They now have a moving target for the pass rush rather than just running at the tallest stationary thing on the field.
2. The DB's world just got turned upside down.
Don't believe me? Get one of the Stooler Pukes to tell you the name of their Quarterback, then maybe do a quick Google search.
The only way a defense is in trouble with a scrambling QB is if it's Micheal Vick or if the QB can get the ball down field. Brady isn't that guy and he has yet to show anybody that he can beat you while scrambling. If I'm a defense, I take my chances with Brady on the run all day.
MASSIVE difference between Ben and Brady. One, Ben is HUGE and has a HUGE arm. This helps because when he starts to scramble, they go DEEP! TEs sprint up the seam and WRs run deep posts. They can do this because he has the arm and the ability. For 99% of QBs, a throw on the run ends up an incomplete pass or an incredibly difficult short completion resulting in a WR getting nailed. I am also glad you brought up this comparison because Ben also gets sacked more than anybody else in the league. Ask any coach in the game if they would rather have Vick or Peyton? Cunningham or Marino? Tarkenton or Unitas?
"Chances are, if you think Jay Leno is funny, I don't care for you as a person" - Peter Griffin -
Exactly! I am talking about the RBs and TEs. That's because those are usually the checkdowns (on any team) and they seem to be his favorite targets and so waiting on them is getting him sacked too many times and getting us in too many 3rd and 7s.
Check down routes are usually delayed. RBs and TEs typically stay at the line for pocket support, and then go into their route when the timer in their head expires (2-3 sec) and there is nobody to block. Sometimes TEs run short quick routes but those are mainly on plays where the TE is NOT the checkdown but rather, the 1st option like on pop-passes and hitches. That rule also applies to RBs. They are typically the 3rd option on a play. Why would the 3rd option have a quick developing route? They would be left standing in one spot waiting for the QB to work his way through Braylon, Furry, and Cribbs. TEs and RBs aka; "checkdowns", are nothing but a safety net for an offense unless you have Tony Gonzalez, Witten, D. Clark or Gates. Brady uses them as the main offensive weapon. This will not get us very far at all. We will become a one dimensional, restricted offensive team. That's an opposing defense's greatest ally and our defense's worst enemy.
A check down is any of the available receivers in the route that are not your first read. It is often a TE or RB. But when and where they get out constantly changes. The check down or dump off is the saftey valve for when primary read is covered or the pass rush pressure requires you to get rid of the ball sooner than planned for. It can be a back sitting off toward the sideline near the line of scrimage, a swing around the end, anyone setting up in a open spot in a zone, a out, an in, etc. But check down routes are all routes designed for quick devleopment so their is the saftey valve against pressure. You can't dump off to avoid quick pressure on a slow developing route.
Did Quinn go to his check down at times sooner than maybe he needed to? I think so. How much I can't say as I don't have the luxury of watching the game film from the endzone camera.
Masters said:
A check down is any of the available receivers in the route that are not your first read. It is often a TE or RB. But when and where they get out constantly changes. The check down or dump off is the saftey valve for when primary read is covered or the pass rush pressure requires you to get rid of the ball sooner than planned for. It can be a back sitting off toward the sideline near the line of scrimage, a swing around the end, anyone setting up in a open spot in a zone, a out, an in, etc. But check down routes are all routes designed for quick devleopment so their is the saftey valve against pressure. You can't dump off to avoid quick pressure on a slow developing route.Did Quinn go to his check down at times sooner than maybe he needed to? I think so. How much I can't say as I don't have the luxury of watching the game film from the endzone camera.
When and where they get out changes due to whether or not they need to stay in and pass block or not. But they will always end up in one general area according to what they play requires of them. Hitch, in, out, post, 5, 10, 15 yards, whatever the play asks for so the QB will know where his "checkdown" will be..
I think you just explained it the same way I did. The only difference is, you think a check down is a quick route. The only time you go to a check down quickly is when you see a blitz coming and you and the WR see the hole that will be left and you try and hit it quick to the TE, RB, WR or whoever. This is not a check down, this is a hot read.
Back to the point though, Brady is extremely limited in what he can do and he is far too uneasy in the pocket. I just really need to see this change soon. I don't think any of us want to see this QB question unanswered for another year.
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??
Guess who else's job gets more difficult when the QB leaves the pocket? The defense.
1. They now have a moving target for the pass rush rather than just running at the tallest stationary thing on the field.
2. The DB's world just got turned upside down.
Don't believe me? Get one of the Stooler Pukes to tell you the name of their Quarterback, then maybe do a quick Google search.
The only way a defense is in trouble with a scrambling QB is if it's Micheal Vick or if the QB can get the ball down field. Brady isn't that guy and he has yet to show anybody that he can beat you while scrambling. If I'm a defense, I take my chances with Brady on the run all day.
MASSIVE difference between Ben and Brady. One, Ben is HUGE and has a HUGE arm. This helps because when he starts to scramble, they go DEEP! TEs sprint up the seam and WRs run deep posts. They can do this because he has the arm and the ability. For 99% of QBs, a throw on the run ends up an incomplete pass or an incredibly difficult short completion resulting in a WR getting nailed. I am also glad you brought up this comparison because Ben also gets sacked more than anybody else in the league. Ask any coach in the game if they would rather have Vick or Peyton? Cunningham or Marino? Tarkenton or Unitas?
The only way a defense is in trouble with a scrambling QB is if it's Micheal Vick or if the QB can get the ball down field. Brady isn't that guy and he has yet to show anybody that he can beat you while scrambling. If I'm a defense, I take my chances with Brady on the run all day.
MASSIVE difference between Ben and Brady. One, Ben is HUGE and has a HUGE arm. This helps because when he starts to scramble, they go DEEP! TEs sprint up the seam and WRs run deep posts. They can do this because he has the arm and the ability. For 99% of QBs, a throw on the run ends up an incomplete pass or an incredibly difficult short completion resulting in a WR getting nailed. I am also glad you brought up this comparison because Ben also gets sacked more than anybody else in the league. Ask any coach in the game if they would rather have Vick or Peyton? Cunningham or Marino? Tarkenton or Unitas?
You're missing the point. I'm not talking about a "running QB." I'm talking about what a QB leaving the pocket does to the defense. Yes, Big Gay can make the throws deep on the run, most can not. But his receivers know their role once they see him move. As for the D, when they see a QB leave the pocket, that fouls up the read they made prior to the snap and they have to adjust their coverage from a play or scheme, and evolve (dissolve) it into backyard follow your man coverage.
Plays don't just "break down" on offense only.
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Masters said:
A check down is any of the available receivers in the route that are not your first read. It is often a TE or RB. But when and where they get out constantly changes. The check down or dump off is the saftey valve for when primary read is covered or the pass rush pressure requires you to get rid of the ball sooner than planned for. It can be a back sitting off toward the sideline near the line of scrimage, a swing around the end, anyone setting up in a open spot in a zone, a out, an in, etc. But check down routes are all routes designed for quick devleopment so their is the saftey valve against pressure. You can't dump off to avoid quick pressure on a slow developing route.Did Quinn go to his check down at times sooner than maybe he needed to? I think so. How much I can't say as I don't have the luxury of watching the game film from the endzone camera.
When and where they get out changes due to whether or not they need to stay in and pass block or not. But they will always end up in one general area according to what they play requires of them. Hitch, in, out, post, 5, 10, 15 yards, whatever the play asks for so the QB will know where his "checkdown" will be..
I think you just explained it the same way I did. The only difference is, you think a check down is a quick route. The only time you go to a check down quickly is when you see a blitz coming and you and the WR see the hole that will be left and you try and hit it quick to the TE, RB, WR or whoever. This is not a check down, this is a hot read.
Back to the point though, Brady is extremely limited in what he can do and he is far too uneasy in the pocket. I just really need to see this change soon. I don't think any of us want to see this QB question unanswered for another year.
When and where they get out changes due to whether or not they need to stay in and pass block or not. But they will always end up in one general area according to what they play requires of them. Hitch, in, out, post, 5, 10, 15 yards, whatever the play asks for so the QB will know where his "checkdown" will be..
I think you just explained it the same way I did. The only difference is, you think a check down is a quick route. The only time you go to a check down quickly is when you see a blitz coming and you and the WR see the hole that will be left and you try and hit it quick to the TE, RB, WR or whoever. This is not a check down, this is a hot read.
Back to the point though, Brady is extremely limited in what he can do and he is far too uneasy in the pocket. I just really need to see this change soon. I don't think any of us want to see this QB question unanswered for another year.
First part we agree and are on the same page
Second part, I am not confusing the terms. My point is the check down receiver (WR, RB, TE) is not always a guy blocking and is never a slow developing route. It's purpose is to be a safty valve. Whether it is needed because of blitz getting threw that wasn't read at pre-snap, because pressure that gets in faster than expected (i.e. guys blowing past or around Womack and St. Claire such as the case several times Sunday), or the primary read is not open. It's a route that is to be available and open as a resort to make something of possibly nothing.
Brady is limited based on what?
I did not see Brady looking uneasy in the pocket (other than when pressure was coming at him). Does he need to do a better job at times of staying with the primary receiver (letting the play devleope) and not going to the check down as soon? Yes, I think there are times where he went to the check down to soon. But there were times where he didn't as well. Does he need to maybe take some more shots down field? Yes, I would think he does. These are unfortunately the type of things we have to wait and see if it improves on. They are all the things that come to NFL QBs over time.
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Quinn is fine, it's the O-Line that is the problem
Somewhat naive.....no??
Somewhat naive.....no??
Absolutely naive.
To claim Quinn isn't a (major?) part of the problem is more purposefully blind than naive. Is the the entire problem? Not from where I sit. But we need to see improvement. This Denver game will be a pretty big indicator for him, Daboll and the o-line, each of which needsome major redemption.
That said, and as lame as we looked, it sure as shit isn't panic time yet. Not sayng Quinn is Aikman or Manning, but they sucked early on too and were given time to improve and develop. That's the tricky think with young quarterbacks...how much time do you give them before you pull the plug???
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Nope, Quinn got sacked five times because the o-line was a sieve. I lost count of the number of times he rolled out to avoid pressure. Anderson the statue would have gotten knocked out of the game by halftime with the kind of heat the Vikes were bringing.
We thought the same thing about Frye. We talked about how bad the O-line was even though it looked really good on paper. Then, DA comes into a game where they know we must throw. They pin their ears back and bring the house and what happened? He gets sacked once or twice in three times as much playing time as Frye. DA doesn't get sacked because he stands in the pocket (this is a good trait by the way) lets his O-line do their jobs and gets 2 more seconds to throw than BQ does. This makes the O-line's job much, much easier. When your back is turned to your QB and he bails out of the pocket too soon, the guy you are engaged with changes direction and angles towards your QB and you don't know where he is anymore, and so you either have to hold or let your guy go. If you know where your QB is going to be, you can hold your blocks accordingly, giving your QB another second or two of time. This is why I say he looks "panicked" like Frye. He can't sit still. He must improve on this, soon.
We thought the same thing about Frye. We talked about how bad the O-line was even though it looked really good on paper. Then, DA comes into a game where they know we must throw. They pin their ears back and bring the house and what happened? He gets sacked once or twice in three times as much playing time as Frye. DA doesn't get sacked because he stands in the pocket (this is a good trait by the way) lets his O-line do their jobs and gets 2 more seconds to throw than BQ does. This makes the O-line's job much, much easier. When your back is turned to your QB and he bails out of the pocket too soon, the guy you are engaged with changes direction and angles towards your QB and you don't know where he is anymore, and so you either have to hold or let your guy go. If you know where your QB is going to be, you can hold your blocks accordingly, giving your QB another second or two of time. This is why I say he looks "panicked" like Frye. He can't sit still. He must improve on this, soon.
An immobile pocket quarterback would have gotten killed all things being equal in the Vikings game. Quinn holding on to the ball too long? Were you at the game? Ever consider Quinn was holding on to the ball too long because no one was open?
As to DA, yeah he stands in the pocket, and his decision making and release are half of what Quinn showed me. So Anderson's got a better arm than Brady- whoopee!!! So did Jeff George, and where did that get him? MHO is Quinn's arm is plenty strong enough, and his overall accuracy is way better than DA's. Derek has yet to prove he can throw a short touch pass, or check down when defenses take away his deep option. If he hasn't learned to do that by now, it's never going to happen. I long ago tired of seeing Anderson throw swing passes into the grass, or 5 yards ahead of the outlet receiver.
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We thought the same thing about Frye. We talked about how bad the O-line was even though it looked really good on paper. Then, DA comes into a game where they know we must throw. They pin their ears back and bring the house and what happened? He gets sacked once or twice in three times as much playing time as Frye. DA doesn't get sacked because he stands in the pocket (this is a good trait by the way) lets his O-line do their jobs and gets 2 more seconds to throw than BQ does. This makes the O-line's job much, much easier. When your back is turned to your QB and he bails out of the pocket too soon, the guy you are engaged with changes direction and angles towards your QB and you don't know where he is anymore, and so you either have to hold or let your guy go. If you know where your QB is going to be, you can hold your blocks accordingly, giving your QB another second or two of time. This is why I say he looks "panicked" like Frye. He can't sit still. He must improve on this, soon.
An immobile pocket quarterback would have gotten killed all things being equal in the Vikings game. Quinn holding on to the ball too long? Were you at the game? Ever consider Quinn was holding on to the ball too long because no one was open?
As to DA, yeah he stands in the pocket, and his decision making and release are half of what Quinn showed me. So Anderson's got a better arm than Brady- whoopee!!! So did Jeff George, and where did that get him? MHO is Quinn's arm is plenty strong enough, and his overall accuracy is way better than DA's. Derek has yet to prove he can throw a short touch pass, or check down when defenses take away his deep option. If he hasn't learned to do that by now, it's never going to happen. I long ago tired of seeing Anderson throw swing passes into the grass, or 5 yards ahead of the outlet receiver.
An immobile pocket quarterback would have gotten killed all things being equal in the Vikings game. Quinn holding on to the ball too long? Were you at the game? Ever consider Quinn was holding on to the ball too long because no one was open?
Great, now everyone is going to start blaming the WRs for our QB failures.
Braylon is 6 ft 3 inches and runs a 4.40. First, a QB needs to get him the rock. Second, he needs to catch it. Browns are not doing neither.
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This arm strength issue I think is misunderstood. It's not how far you can throw (most of us can throw it 40 yards NFLers can do 60 or so) it's how fast the ball gets to the spot. Recievers in the NFL are almost never wide-open. A QB has got to be able to get it there quickly and accurately. Brady doesn't bother throwing a lot of passes because his arm cannot get it there fast enough. That's the issue with his arm strength. There are a lot of plays left on the field when your QB can't make throws.
And I'm not saying DA is great either, I'm mostly saying Quinn is bad and he may always be. If I am wrong about this I'll be very, very happy and will go out and get a Quinn jersey.But I just feel like I'm watching Charlie Frye all over again. It's his third year in the league, he should be a lot more comfortable and effective at this point.
"Chances are, if you think Jay Leno is funny, I don't care for you as a person" - Peter Griffin -
We thought the same thing about Frye. We talked about how bad the O-line was even though it looked really good on paper. Then, DA comes into a game where they know we must throw. They pin their ears back and bring the house and what happened? He gets sacked once or twice in three times as much playing time as Frye. DA doesn't get sacked because he stands in the pocket (this is a good trait by the way) lets his O-line do their jobs and gets 2 more seconds to throw than BQ does. This makes the O-line's job much, much easier. When your back is turned to your QB and he bails out of the pocket too soon, the guy you are engaged with changes direction and angles towards your QB and you don't know where he is anymore, and so you either have to hold or let your guy go. If you know where your QB is going to be, you can hold your blocks accordingly, giving your QB another second or two of time. This is why I say he looks "panicked" like Frye. He can't sit still. He must improve on this, soon.
An immobile pocket quarterback would have gotten killed all things being equal in the Vikings game. Quinn holding on to the ball too long? Were you at the game? Ever consider Quinn was holding on to the ball too long because no one was open?
As to DA, yeah he stands in the pocket, and his decision making and release are half of what Quinn showed me. So Anderson's got a better arm than Brady- whoopee!!! So did Jeff George, and where did that get him? MHO is Quinn's arm is plenty strong enough, and his overall accuracy is way better than DA's. Derek has yet to prove he can throw a short touch pass, or check down when defenses take away his deep option. If he hasn't learned to do that by now, it's never going to happen. I long ago tired of seeing Anderson throw swing passes into the grass, or 5 yards ahead of the outlet receiver.
An immobile pocket quarterback would have gotten killed all things being equal in the Vikings game. Quinn holding on to the ball too long? Were you at the game? Ever consider Quinn was holding on to the ball too long because no one was open?
As to DA, yeah he stands in the pocket, and his decision making and release are half of what Quinn showed me. So Anderson's got a better arm than Brady- whoopee!!! So did Jeff George, and where did that get him? MHO is Quinn's arm is plenty strong enough, and his overall accuracy is way better than DA's. Derek has yet to prove he can throw a short touch pass, or check down when defenses take away his deep option. If he hasn't learned to do that by now, it's never going to happen. I long ago tired of seeing Anderson throw swing passes into the grass, or 5 yards ahead of the outlet receiver.
I'll enumerate and address your false assumptions:
1) Anderson does not take more sacks than Quinn does. If Anderson had played I would have expected fewer sacks, not more.
2) Quinn does not look comfortable in the pocket and he is not especially mobile. These myths about him being composed and nimble were based on zilch.
3) Quinn has claimed repeatedly that he doesn't throw downfield because nobody is open. Hmmm I wonder how Anderson keeps throwing downfield then????
4) Quinn is simply not very accurate. This myth was created by those who think completion percentage in college = accuracy. After further review it has been revealed that the majority of Quinn's passes only travel ~5 yards, which is conducive to a high completion% (yet he is still only 53%). Half his deep balls end up 8 yards out of bounds or are involved in some kind of much-discussed "interception miscommunication" with the WR.
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This arm strength issue I think is misunderstood. It's not how far you can throw (most of us can throw it 40 yards NFLers can do 60 or so) it's how fast the ball gets to the spot. Recievers in the NFL are almost never wide-open. A QB has got to be able to get it there quickly and accurately. Brady doesn't bother throwing a lot of passes because his arm cannot get it there fast enough. That's the issue with his arm strength. There are a lot of plays left on the field when your QB can't make throws.
And I'm not saying DA is great either, I'm mostly saying Quinn is bad and he may always be. If I am wrong about this I'll be very, very happy and will go out and get a Quinn jersey.But I just feel like I'm watching Charlie Frye all over again. It's his third year in the league, he should be a lot more comfortable and effective at this point.
It's his third year in the league, he should be a lot more comfortable and effective at this point.
But how much live game has he seen in those 3 years? Film study is one thing and so is practice. But nothing replaces the experience of playing in real games (and no pre-season games don't count) with a live D.
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It's his third year in the league, he should be a lot more comfortable and effective at this point.
But how much live game has he seen in those 3 years? Film study is one thing and so is practice. But nothing replaces the experience of playing in real games (and no pre-season games don't count) with a live D.
Masters said:
But how much live game has he seen in those 3 years? Film study is one thing and so is practice. But nothing replaces the experience of playing in real games (and no pre-season games don't count) with a live D.You make a good point but when I look at Aaron Rogers, he stepped in last year and completely understood what he was seeing and doing after sitting 4 years. He didn't panic. Even looking at the rookie class of last year. Flacco and Ryan. Ryan especially, started for a terrible team and if anyone had a reason to be uncomfortable in the pocket it would be him. Instead he became Matty Ice. Brady looks like a first year, first time starter and he shouldn't. He has a very solid line in front of him and he can't settle down. Even last year, against the Broncos who were shreaded by every other team in the league, he looked uncomfortable. I truly believe it's because his abilities limit what he can do so he swallows the ball and hopes a TE or RB can get open in a hurry. If he were a bonified starting QB in this league he would be 16 of 24 1 TD 0 ints 3 sacks. Yes, even against the Vikings.
DA does have a knack for making bad decisions but if you look at his history you will see......
1. Second half of the season in 07 Chud decided throwing the ball would be a great idea in the cold, windy months with a young QB. Your QB will fail. Against Cinci, he, I believe, threw the ball over 30 times starting early in the game and the wind was over 40mph. No QB can succeed in those conditions.
2. Last year, ZERO targets to choose from. After Braylon kept dropping passes I saw DA begin to throw into his gut instead of his hands and he still dropped them. After awhile DA just stared down Winslow, and can you blame him? That's all he had. This is why he was so ineffective.
3. Last year he had no running game whatsoever. Chud refused to run the ball even when we were in games late. Rediculous.
4. Last year, no defense. DA (still, a young QB) was forced to try and make things happen for the team. This is where he makes the bulk of his mistakes, and he did make mistakes. Half of which could have been avoided if the QB has targets and a running game which we do now. Trouble is, we also have a QB that cannot utilize what he has. It's like buying a corvette with a manual transmission and you can't drive stick, what good is it? It looks good, it's fun to show off, and it can go fast but the driver can't even get it started.
Dammit! I sound like a DA honk again! I'm not trying to but that's just how I see it. DA gives us the best chance to win.
Look at it like this, if both QBs are mediocre. as they are. then who do you want in there when at their best? Brady at his best (see denver 08) or DA at his best (half of 07 and against NY last year)?
"Chances are, if you think Jay Leno is funny, I don't care for you as a person" - Peter Griffin -
Masters said:
But how much live game has he seen in those 3 years? Film study is one thing and so is practice. But nothing replaces the experience of playing in real games (and no pre-season games don't count) with a live D.You make a good point but when I look at Aaron Rogers, he stepped in last year and completely understood what he was seeing and doing after sitting 4 years. He didn't panic. Even looking at the rookie class of last year. Flacco and Ryan. Ryan especially, started for a terrible team and if anyone had a reason to be uncomfortable in the pocket it would be him. Instead he became Matty Ice. Brady looks like a first year, first time starter and he shouldn't. He has a very solid line in front of him and he can't settle down. Even last year, against the Broncos who were shreaded by every other team in the league, he looked uncomfortable. I truly believe it's because his abilities limit what he can do so he swallows the ball and hopes a TE or RB can get open in a hurry. If he were a bonified starting QB in this league he would be 16 of 24 1 TD 0 ints 3 sacks. Yes, even against the Vikings.
DA does have a knack for making bad decisions but if you look at his history you will see......
1. Second half of the season in 07 Chud decided throwing the ball would be a great idea in the cold, windy months with a young QB. Your QB will fail. Against Cinci, he, I believe, threw the ball over 30 times starting early in the game and the wind was over 40mph. No QB can succeed in those conditions.
2. Last year, ZERO targets to choose from. After Braylon kept dropping passes I saw DA begin to throw into his gut instead of his hands and he still dropped them. After awhile DA just stared down Winslow, and can you blame him? That's all he had. This is why he was so ineffective.
3. Last year he had no running game whatsoever. Chud refused to run the ball even when we were in games late. Rediculous.
4. Last year, no defense. DA (still, a young QB) was forced to try and make things happen for the team. This is where he makes the bulk of his mistakes, and he did make mistakes. Half of which could have been avoided if the QB has targets and a running game which we do now. Trouble is, we also have a QB that cannot utilize what he has. It's like buying a corvette with a manual transmission and you can't drive stick, what good is it? It looks good, it's fun to show off, and it can go fast but the driver can't even get it started.
Dammit! I sound like a DA honk again! I'm not trying to but that's just how I see it. DA gives us the best chance to win.
Look at it like this, if both QBs are mediocre. as they are. then who do you want in there when at their best? Brady at his best (see denver 08) or DA at his best (half of 07 and against NY last year)?
You make a good point but when I look at Aaron Rogers, he stepped in last year and completely understood what he was seeing and doing after sitting 4 years. He didn't panic. Even looking at the rookie class of last year. Flacco and Ryan. Ryan especially, started for a terrible team and if anyone had a reason to be uncomfortable in the pocket it would be him. Instead he became Matty Ice. Brady looks like a first year, first time starter and he shouldn't. He has a very solid line in front of him and he can't settle down. Even last year, against the Broncos who were shreaded by every other team in the league, he looked uncomfortable. I truly believe it's because his abilities limit what he can do so he swallows the ball and hopes a TE or RB can get open in a hurry. If he were a bonified starting QB in this league he would be 16 of 24 1 TD 0 ints 3 sacks. Yes, even against the Vikings.
DA does have a knack for making bad decisions but if you look at his history you will see......
1. Second half of the season in 07 Chud decided throwing the ball would be a great idea in the cold, windy months with a young QB. Your QB will fail. Against Cinci, he, I believe, threw the ball over 30 times starting early in the game and the wind was over 40mph. No QB can succeed in those conditions.
2. Last year, ZERO targets to choose from. After Braylon kept dropping passes I saw DA begin to throw into his gut instead of his hands and he still dropped them. After awhile DA just stared down Winslow, and can you blame him? That's all he had. This is why he was so ineffective.
3. Last year he had no running game whatsoever. Chud refused to run the ball even when we were in games late. Rediculous.
4. Last year, no defense. DA (still, a young QB) was forced to try and make things happen for the team. This is where he makes the bulk of his mistakes, and he did make mistakes. Half of which could have been avoided if the QB has targets and a running game which we do now. Trouble is, we also have a QB that cannot utilize what he has. It's like buying a corvette with a manual transmission and you can't drive stick, what good is it? It looks good, it's fun to show off, and it can go fast but the driver can't even get it started.
Dammit! I sound like a DA honk again! I'm not trying to but that's just how I see it. DA gives us the best chance to win.
Look at it like this, if both QBs are mediocre. as they are. then who do you want in there when at their best? Brady at his best (see denver 08) or DA at his best (half of 07 and against NY last year)?
You make a good point on Rogers. Though I'd agrue he sat 4 years compared to 2, and got all the work in camp last year (by that I more mean he had one thing on his mind, prepare for the regular season, as oppossed to competing to be the starter, then preparing).
Flacco and Ryan did look good for rookies. Ryan didn't actually go to a terrible team. He went to a team that took a major hit of losing their QB to jail before the start of the 2007 season and a coach quitting on them. The talent was still their and they bolstered it by adding Turner, who took a ton of pressure of Ryan (Flacco had the running game and the D taking the pressure of him). What I would expect is Quinn to look similar or a little better than either of those guys did in their 4th start (Ryan had a very bad day against CAR and Flacco had a very bad day against TEN).
I don't see the solid OL you speak of, at least on the right side. Womack and St. Clair were less than solid most of the game. They were getting driven back and run past. Quinn did look uncomfortable early and more as the pressure continued to get to him. But he also stood in their and took hits while delivering the ball.
As to the expectation of a bonified NFL QB would do againts the Viking, I think it was in this thread, I pointed out what some of the top NFL QBs that faced the Vikes did last year, and it wasn't all that impressive (most had more picks than TDs, and 3~5 sacks). So even "bonified" NFL QBs didn't come up with the statline you think a bonified QB would have.
1. Yes, Chud was not to bright w/ the heavy throwing in the DEC conditions. But all of those picks weren't the wind. They were throws where you shouldn't throw (double coverage) or just bad throws (i.e. no CLE player near where the ball went).
2. And this year there are more? I saw DA stare down Edwards before he gave up on BE an started staring down Winslow. Most cases he stared them down from pre-snap all the way to the throw.
3. And SUN CLE actually had a semblance of a running game in the first half, yet Dabol all but completely abandoned it.
4. You got me some on this one. Because DA was making those same mistakes when CLE wasn't down and the D was holding. One example, the BALT game where DA threw the pick 6. And again, where are these targets now for either guy?
Right now, with no D (at least for 4 QTRs), no targets, and no running game, it's the same thing as last year. So really how can either have a better chance to win. DA did no better in the same situation last year, so why would it be any different now?
We don't know that we have seen Brady's best. But if you had me chose between the single sampling of the DEN game vs. DA's 1st half of 2007 + the NYG game last year, I am going to take the DEN game all day long. Now if we want just a choice between the G-men game and the DEN game, I'll take the G-men game. But unfortunately history has shown me that is the high DA will give me, but it always comes with an equal low.
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You make a good point but when I look at Aaron Rogers, he stepped in last year and completely understood what he was seeing and doing after sitting 4 years. He didn't panic. Even looking at the rookie class of last year. Flacco and Ryan. Ryan especially, started for a terrible team and if anyone had a reason to be uncomfortable in the pocket it would be him. Instead he became Matty Ice. Brady looks like a first year, first time starter and he shouldn't. He has a very solid line in front of him and he can't settle down. Even last year, against the Broncos who were shreaded by every other team in the league, he looked uncomfortable. I truly believe it's because his abilities limit what he can do so he swallows the ball and hopes a TE or RB can get open in a hurry. If he were a bonified starting QB in this league he would be 16 of 24 1 TD 0 ints 3 sacks. Yes, even against the Vikings.
DA does have a knack for making bad decisions but if you look at his history you will see......
1. Second half of the season in 07 Chud decided throwing the ball would be a great idea in the cold, windy months with a young QB. Your QB will fail. Against Cinci, he, I believe, threw the ball over 30 times starting early in the game and the wind was over 40mph. No QB can succeed in those conditions.
2. Last year, ZERO targets to choose from. After Braylon kept dropping passes I saw DA begin to throw into his gut instead of his hands and he still dropped them. After awhile DA just stared down Winslow, and can you blame him? That's all he had. This is why he was so ineffective.
3. Last year he had no running game whatsoever. Chud refused to run the ball even when we were in games late. Rediculous.
4. Last year, no defense. DA (still, a young QB) was forced to try and make things happen for the team. This is where he makes the bulk of his mistakes, and he did make mistakes. Half of which could have been avoided if the QB has targets and a running game which we do now. Trouble is, we also have a QB that cannot utilize what he has. It's like buying a corvette with a manual transmission and you can't drive stick, what good is it? It looks good, it's fun to show off, and it can go fast but the driver can't even get it started.
Dammit! I sound like a DA honk again! I'm not trying to but that's just how I see it. DA gives us the best chance to win.
Look at it like this, if both QBs are mediocre. as they are. then who do you want in there when at their best? Brady at his best (see denver 08) or DA at his best (half of 07 and against NY last year)?
You make a good point on Rogers. Though I'd agrue he sat 4 years compared to 2, and got all the work in camp last year (by that I more mean he had one thing on his mind, prepare for the regular season, as oppossed to competing to be the starter, then preparing).
Flacco and Ryan did look good for rookies. Ryan didn't actually go to a terrible team. He went to a team that took a major hit of losing their QB to jail before the start of the 2007 season and a coach quitting on them. The talent was still their and they bolstered it by adding Turner, who took a ton of pressure of Ryan (Flacco had the running game and the D taking the pressure of him). What I would expect is Quinn to look similar or a little better than either of those guys did in their 4th start (Ryan had a very bad day against CAR and Flacco had a very bad day against TEN).
I don't see the solid OL you speak of, at least on the right side. Womack and St. Clair were less than solid most of the game. They were getting driven back and run past. Quinn did look uncomfortable early and more as the pressure continued to get to him. But he also stood in their and took hits while delivering the ball.
As to the expectation of a bonified NFL QB would do againts the Viking, I think it was in this thread, I pointed out what some of the top NFL QBs that faced the Vikes did last year, and it wasn't all that impressive (most had more picks than TDs, and 3~5 sacks). So even "bonified" NFL QBs didn't come up with the statline you think a bonified QB would have.
1. Yes, Chud was not to bright w/ the heavy throwing in the DEC conditions. But all of those picks weren't the wind. They were throws where you shouldn't throw (double coverage) or just bad throws (i.e. no CLE player near where the ball went).
2. And this year there are more? I saw DA stare down Edwards before he gave up on BE an started staring down Winslow. Most cases he stared them down from pre-snap all the way to the throw.
3. And SUN CLE actually had a semblance of a running game in the first half, yet Dabol all but completely abandoned it.
4. You got me some on this one. Because DA was making those same mistakes when CLE wasn't down and the D was holding. One example, the BALT game where DA threw the pick 6. And again, where are these targets now for either guy?
Right now, with no D (at least for 4 QTRs), no targets, and no running game, it's the same thing as last year. So really how can either have a better chance to win. DA did no better in the same situation last year, so why would it be any different now?
We don't know that we have seen Brady's best. But if you had me chose between the single sampling of the DEN game vs. DA's 1st half of 2007 + the NYG game last year, I am going to take the DEN game all day long. Now if we want just a choice between the G-men game and the DEN game, I'll take the G-men game. But unfortunately history has shown me that is the high DA will give me, but it always comes with an equal low.
Masters said:
You make a good point on Rogers. Though I'd agrue he sat 4 years compared to 2, and got all the work in camp last year (by that I more mean he had one thing on his mind, prepare for the regular season, as oppossed to competing to be the starter, then preparing).Flacco and Ryan did look good for rookies. Ryan didn't actually go to a terrible team. He went to a team that took a major hit of losing their QB to jail before the start of the 2007 season and a coach quitting on them. The talent was still their and they bolstered it by adding Turner, who took a ton of pressure of Ryan (Flacco had the running game and the D taking the pressure of him). What I would expect is Quinn to look similar or a little better than either of those guys did in their 4th start (Ryan had a very bad day against CAR and Flacco had a very bad day against TEN).
I don't see the solid OL you speak of, at least on the right side. Womack and St. Clair were less than solid most of the game. They were getting driven back and run past. Quinn did look uncomfortable early and more as the pressure continued to get to him. But he also stood in their and took hits while delivering the ball.
As to the expectation of a bonified NFL QB would do againts the Viking, I think it was in this thread, I pointed out what some of the top NFL QBs that faced the Vikes did last year, and it wasn't all that impressive (most had more picks than TDs, and 3~5 sacks). So even "bonified" NFL QBs didn't come up with the statline you think a bonified QB would have.
1. Yes, Chud was not to bright w/ the heavy throwing in the DEC conditions. But all of those picks weren't the wind. They were throws where you shouldn't throw (double coverage) or just bad throws (i.e. no CLE player near where the ball went).
2. And this year there are more? I saw DA stare down Edwards before he gave up on BE an started staring down Winslow. Most cases he stared them down from pre-snap all the way to the throw.
3. And SUN CLE actually had a semblance of a running game in the first half, yet Dabol all but completely abandoned it.
4. You got me some on this one. Because DA was making those same mistakes when CLE wasn't down and the D was holding. One example, the BALT game where DA threw the pick 6. And again, where are these targets now for either guy?
Right now, with no D (at least for 4 QTRs), no targets, and no running game, it's the same thing as last year. So really how can either have a better chance to win. DA did no better in the same situation last year, so why would it be any different now?
We don't know that we have seen Brady's best. But if you had me chose between the single sampling of the DEN game vs. DA's 1st half of 2007 + the NYG game last year, I am going to take the DEN game all day long. Now if we want just a choice between the G-men game and the DEN game, I'll take the G-men game. But unfortunately history has shown me that is the high DA will give me, but it always comes with an equal low.
You make some very good points. And you're right about the right side of the line, that needs upgraded this offseason. I feel like you need to put a TE over there almost always but it's not as bad as the 5 sacks imply. And you're right about playing the Vikings, it's not easy for anybody. I'm not calling for BQs head and I think he needs a few weeks if not, a whole year to improve. I just fear that he isn't going to be a good QB (I hope he is) and I really can't stand another year worrying about the QBs. We have an entire team to worry about here. And DA does make some bad decisions but he too is a young QB and I was excited to see what he would do this year. It should be his make-or-break season. I hoped he would get the job and sink or swim this year and if he sank, hand it over to Brady. I just think DA can read a defense really well, and yes I really do believe that, it's just that he throws some bad balls and the worst possible thing usually happens when he does.
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I was just doing it to compare 4th start vs 4th start. Next week will be 5th start vs 5th start. By the end of the year it should work out. It is similar age, similar situation & similar overall schedule. Obviously each start will not match up as talent level. For instance in Cincy two DA had a horrible game, I most certainly think that BQ will win that comparsion (that game is against the raiders).
You weren't comparing anything, just doing your typical Andersonite drivel. It is amazing people want to whine about Quinn, when his impact on the game, in the end was quite overrated.
The Browns were uncohesive pile of sheet, the coaching staff Tresselesque playcalling and players trying to figure out where to get in position at.
Yet, we whine about Quinn. Mercy.
You weren't comparing anything, just doing your typical Andersonite drivel. It is amazing people want to whine about Quinn, when his impact on the game, in the end was quite overrated.
The Browns were uncohesive pile of sheet, the coaching staff Tresselesque playcalling and players trying to figure out where to get in position at.
Yet, we whine about Quinn. Mercy.
Hey I have been told by many people on this board that the QB over comes lack of talent and coaching. A great QB rises above it and takes his team with him. That is the standard that the fans have demanded. And as far as I did not compare anything how is looking at a players stat line in his fourth start (at the same age mind you) versus another players stat line in his fourth start not a comparision?
Yea the Browns had other problems in this game, like they played a better team. The defense did not play that bad overall and besides if you want to look at defense in Anderson's fourth start the opponent scored 45 points.
I totally think it is fair to look at game by game comparisions. It will work out at the end of the season and you will get to compare BQ's progression VS DA's regression.
I am not saying start DA. I wouldn't, I would stay with BQ at the minimum of 10 weeks. If it is a lost season AND BQ is not showing progression then I would probably bench him just so he didn't get his bonus.
This is about comparing the two QBs we have at similar stages in their careers. And remember BQ does have the advantage of a better coaching staff (that is what I have been told at least). Too me the play calling looked far to similar to last year and I DON"T think that is BQ's fault.
But yea, there is allot of blame to throw around but in this game the QB did nothing to help the team and did help them lose. But, it is one game. Time to move on against a weaker opponent and even up the record. Which just so you know I do think the Browns will win this game and BQ will have a much improved game.
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You weren't comparing anything, just doing your typical Andersonite drivel. It is amazing people want to whine about Quinn, when his impact on the game, in the end was quite overrated.
The Browns were uncohesive pile of sheet, the coaching staff Tresselesque playcalling and players trying to figure out where to get in position at.
Yet, we whine about Quinn. Mercy.
Hey I have been told by many people on this board that the QB over comes lack of talent and coaching. A great QB rises above it and takes his team with him. That is the standard that the fans have demanded. And as far as I did not compare anything how is looking at a players stat line in his fourth start (at the same age mind you) versus another players stat line in his fourth start not a comparision?
Yea the Browns had other problems in this game, like they played a better team. The defense did not play that bad overall and besides if you want to look at defense in Anderson's fourth start the opponent scored 45 points.
I totally think it is fair to look at game by game comparisions. It will work out at the end of the season and you will get to compare BQ's progression VS DA's regression.
I am not saying start DA. I wouldn't, I would stay with BQ at the minimum of 10 weeks. If it is a lost season AND BQ is not showing progression then I would probably bench him just so he didn't get his bonus.
This is about comparing the two QBs we have at similar stages in their careers. And remember BQ does have the advantage of a better coaching staff (that is what I have been told at least). Too me the play calling looked far to similar to last year and I DON"T think that is BQ's fault.
But yea, there is allot of blame to throw around but in this game the QB did nothing to help the team and did help them lose. But, it is one game. Time to move on against a weaker opponent and even up the record. Which just so you know I do think the Browns will win this game and BQ will have a much improved game.
I am not saying start DA. I wouldn't, I would stay with BQ at the minimum of 10 weeks. If it is a lost season AND BQ is not showing progression then I would probably bench him just so he didn't get his bonus.
I don't think as fans, we really should give two shits about Quinns bonus kicking in. Have we become that big of losers? Seriously, what we are looking for is so far beyond worrying about paying the guy a bonus it ain't even funny.
I liked your first part of the post; Quinn, Anderson or whoever the hell else makes it here as the starting QB, needs to make those around him better. He needs to carry the SOB's. Plug and Play just about anyone on the depth chart and they need to find a way to make it happen.
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I am not saying start DA. I wouldn't, I would stay with BQ at the minimum of 10 weeks. If it is a lost season AND BQ is not showing progression then I would probably bench him just so he didn't get his bonus.
I don't think as fans, we really should give two shits about Quinns bonus kicking in. Have we become that big of losers? Seriously, what we are looking for is so far beyond worrying about paying the guy a bonus it ain't even funny.
I liked your first part of the post; Quinn, Anderson or whoever the hell else makes it here as the starting QB, needs to make those around him better. He needs to carry the SOB's. Plug and Play just about anyone on the depth chart and they need to find a way to make it happen.
I don't think as fans, we really should give two shits about Quinns bonus kicking in.
All I care about seeing is a QB putting some freakin jumper cables on this offense and providing enough juice so I never have to revisit any of the following:
1) Fire the OC
2) Cut the WRs
3) The oline sucks
4) Bring in a new a RB! Remember the guy we dragged out of his marijuana sebatical (Rashaan Salaam)? If that wasn't OUR team that woulda been pretty freakin funny.
5) Fire the Head Coach
6) Fire the GM
7) Fire the popcorn vendors
Quit selling bottled beer at the stadium9) Blame the refs
10) we shouldn't expect too much because this is only our umpteenth year of rebuilding
When the RIGHT QB comes of age - all that stuff disappears faster than Madonna's underwear on a date.
The restrictions on DBs and various rule changes continuing to unfold have really made this a league about the QB. Well balanced attacks are usually the best way to play chess. As we've seen in the last 2 SBs. The last 4 minutes were ALL about the QBs leadign their teams to go ahead points on BOTH sides of the matchup. End result? The league was happy countless fans were telling them "Great Superbowl."
Look, I've never REALLY hated DA. He had MORE chances to become Brian Sipe than Brian Sipe got back in the day. If mission was accomplished - Brady Quinn would have been about as popular around here as Mike Phipps became once everyone saw Sipe's act. The difference? Phipps got countless starts while nobody wanted to step up and say - "ummm, there's still there's no progress." Then Sipe enters a game or two and people start to ask - "should it have looked that easy?" "I didn't know we had receivers that could play." "For that matter, I didn't know Sipe could play." It's amazing what giving a guy that chance to play can actually allow a guy to accomplish. NOBODY on this planet can play from the sidelines.
Like I've said, since our organization drafted Quinn in the first round - I'd like to see the kid succeed. We can pretend first round commitments at the QB position for a franchise in transition aren't any more significant than any other commitments. But we know deep down - if you're wrong about that QB - you're the Cincy Bengals. If you're right? You're the Atlanta Falcons, Philly Eagles, Pittsburgh Steelers, Baltimore Ravens. We've been right before and I think we found the 80s to be a fun era.
- Tom F.
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@shepwrite said:
I am totally willing to say Quinn sucks and isn't going to work out if and when that time comes. It's at least 7 or 8 starts away.Me? I'm willing to give it this entire season, for starters. We're not winning the Super Bowl anyway. Might as well see what we have.
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