Yuck to the TOP QB prospect!!!
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Reading my reply above, I guess I came off as more "anti-Clausen" than I really feel I should have. Let me put it this way:
Things I like: Sees the field very well. Very good touch on the ball. Very tough. Looks like he stepped out of the textbook under "QB".
Things I don't like: Floats the deep ball. Not very mobile (perhaps less than average from what I've seen and read). Could be better at feeling the pass rush.
Jimmy Clausen will suffer in Browns' fans minds because of the presence of his predecessor, Brady Quinn. That isn't fair but I'm betting that QB evaluation is no longer going to be a weakness of this organization with Holmgren in the building. I still don't like the idea of taking him in the first. I think that Haden is a better CB than Clausen is a QB. There are other similarly rated QBs that will be available later. Just my opinion. You may disagree.
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I pretty sure Suh and Berry will be gone when we pick but I can't stand the thought of Jimmy Clausen being the #1 projected QB. You know how it takes at least 10 beers to turn a female cornhusker into a hottie? I'd need about 18-24 beers to like what I see in Jimmy Clausen's game as a football player. I think the kid from Central Michigan (LeFever) sees the field better whereas Golden Tate's unbelieveable athleticism allowed Clausen to lock onto his favorite target most of the time. In addition, I think he throws too many flutter balls which translates into picks at the next level. There's just something about him I don't like.
Do we try to find the next Percy Harvin in round 1 to add TDs to our WR corps? My guess is this would be Golden Tate barring a disappointing 40 time ahead. I remembered saying we could use some more weapons in our passing game last year and the 1 guy I wanted most of all just got Offensive Rookie of the Year. That said, I liked the way things worked out with Alex Mack.
Do we go after a corner like Hayden, which someone already mentioned here?
Is there a gotta have available at Right Tackle?
What if RB CJ Spiller is on our doorstep? I know we have Harrison but Carolina has a pretty good deal when DeAngelo Williams can't dress on Sundays. Even when he does, Stewart's fresh legs is a nice 1-2 punch and change of pace.
Will this be a year where there's QB gems after round 1?
This goes to anyone that wants to answer it - What would be your ideal first 3 rounds for the Browns in the 2010 Draft?
- Tom F.
I pretty sure Suh and Berry will be gone when we pick but I can't stand the thought of Jimmy Clausen being the #1 projected QB. You know how it takes at least 10 beers to turn a female cornhusker into a hottie? I'd need about 18-24 beers to like what I see in Jimmy Clausen's game as a football player. I think the kid from Central Michigan (LeFever) sees the field better whereas Golden Tate's unbelieveable athleticism allowed Clausen to lock onto his favorite target most of the time. In addition, I think he throws too many flutter balls which translates into picks at the next level. There's just something about him I don't like.
Will this be a year where there's QB gems after round 1?
This goes to anyone that wants to answer it - What would be your ideal first 3 rounds for the Browns in the 2010 Draft?
- Tom F.
Tom I agree- Suh will not last past Detroit if the Rams opt best qb on the board. If the Rams and Lions both go D, Suh and Berry may well be the first two prospects off the board. Find it hard to rationalize the Browns would go to the ND well twice in a row. Bradford scares me with his injury history, McCoy got himself hurt in the NC game so ditto there. So no qb in the first round for me, thank you very much.
Browns needs- IMHO
1) stud pass rusher
2) legit #1 wr
3) enforcer safety (don't see Berry falling this far)
4) shut down corner (this is my bet where the Browns draft Hayden to go with Wright)
5) RT (the Browns will seriously consider Okung here if he's still on the board)
6) stud LB
7) developmental qb. The Browns have 3 third rounders- LeFevere or Pike if they're still here.
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I really have a feeling we're going to pursue Russell Okung with our first round pick if we don't address our offensive line in Free Agency. We need a RT pretty bad, but I just don't know if I agree with nabbing one that early. I've been all on the Okung train this year, but after watching the Jets absolutely dominate the Bengals, I'm starting to lean towards building our defense with this draft. Rob Ryan did a lot with a little this year, and I think it would go a long way if we were to add some talent in the secondary and at the LB corps. With that in mind, I think we could benefit from a lot of people, specifically Joe Haden/Rolando McClain/Taylor Mays.
Yes, Taylor Mays.
I'd love to see us nab Berry, but I don't think he'll be there when we pick. At this point in time, I think we'd be stretching a bit to nab Mays, but he's still got that raw athleticism that I love to see in a defensive back. I highly doubt he'll end up in Cleveland, but I wouldn't hate it if he did.
Joe Haden is the most NFL ready cornerback I've seen in a while. He's fast as lightning, and he has great football knowledge. He's great in man coverage, and his zone coverage isn't too bad either. The only problem I have with him is that he seems to have a hard time getting off of blocks to provide run support. Everything else, though, is truly amazing.
Rolando McClain would be a great addition because of his raw athletic talent. He's got a little bit of an anger problem it seems, but his skill more than makes up for it. The earlier comparison with Pat Willis seems spot on to me, McClain is fast as hell for his size. He'd be a good ILB for us, I believe.
I'd also consider nabbing Javier Arenas if he's available in the 2nd, which I doubt he will be. He's not as fast as I would like, but he's pretty much complete in every other way. You can't teach speed, though... so that may kill him in the NFL.
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Tim Couch Pulls..., you win for best avatar and sig. No doubt about it.
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"Rolando McClain would be a great addition because of his raw athletic talent. He's got a little bit of an anger problem it seems, but his skill more than makes up for it."
I think the anger problem would be no problem. We need a nasty son of a bitch on our defense that when a RB goes to cut inside, he is not looking for a crease but actually an inside LB that is going to beat the piss out of him.
As long as we dont draft a qb in the first, Haden or Mclain or Okung will be damn good picks and not to damn expensive. I do how ever see Haden holding out, because he is the best DB, and will probably ask for mad money. We will need him in camp early.
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While I certainly don't want the Browns taking a QB early, I think your takes on Clausen reveal that you haven't really watched him. Clausen does not lock onto a target and he sees the field incredibly well (that's why he threw 33 TDs vs. 4 INTs and hit just about 70% of his passes over his last 13 games).
The numbers are skewed so heavily in favor of Tate at least in part because the other two main pass catchers on the team missed 3 and 5 games, respectively.
Michael Floyd caught 44 balls in 7 games. His numbers, projected out to 12 games like Tate's, are: 75 grabs, 1363 yards, and 15 TDs). Many thought that Floyd was the better receiver of the two, even early in this season. I personally preferred Tate all along, as he's more explosive.
Kyle Rudolph (TE) caught 33 passes in 9 games. None of ND's other receivers played more than 8 games. Clausen didn't lock onto him. He threw to Tate when he was open. And when he wasn't, Clausen threw elsewhere. It's something to keep in mind, and it's something you may not have seen if you didn't watch all of ND's games.
While I certainly don't want the Browns taking a QB early, I think your takes on Clausen reveal that you haven't really watched him. Clausen does not lock onto a target and he sees the field incredibly well (that's why he threw 33 TDs vs. 4 INTs and hit just about 70% of his passes over his last 13 games).
The numbers are skewed so heavily in favor of Tate at least in part because the other two main pass catchers on the team missed 3 and 5 games, respectively.
Michael Floyd caught 44 balls in 7 games. His numbers, projected out to 12 games like Tate's, are: 75 grabs, 1363 yards, and 15 TDs). Many thought that Floyd was the better receiver of the two, even early in this season. I personally preferred Tate all along, as he's more explosive.
Kyle Rudolph (TE) caught 33 passes in 9 games. None of ND's other receivers played more than 8 games. Clausen didn't lock onto him. He threw to Tate when he was open. And when he wasn't, Clausen threw elsewhere. It's something to keep in mind, and it's something you may not have seen if you didn't watch all of ND's games.
Thanks for reply and difference of opinion Trodgers. Good job by you with the presentation of it all.
I don't think we're viewing locking onto the primary target the same way partly because I did a crappy job of wording it as Clausen's favorite target. Here's where I'm coming from: if there's a pass play called in the huddle - he's staring down that guy from pre-snap to throw. That said, on occasion - Clausen has given a pump fake to 1 side and thrown deep to the other side, which prolly got ADDED into the game plan during the week more than it was drawn up in the playbook or in Jimmy's brain. There's no way I can come up with this without seeing considerable parts of 6-7 games. Anyway, you CAN lock onto your primary target and still have a TE or other receivers catching lots of passes. See Aaron Shea for Tim Couch, See KJ for Tim Couch and see Darren Chiaverinni for Tim Couch. Alot of Tate's catches were more impressive on Tate's part than the passer's IMO. Not only that, but how many times did short little passes to Tate end up with YAC to the end zone? I might have just walked into - then what's the problem with sticking with the playcalled with that one but do you see where I'm coming from?
One of the things I liked best about your arguement was bringing up Michael Floyd. When healthy, Weis called ALOT of plays his way especially in the red zone or on those important 3rd downs where they had to move the chains. Michael Floyd is 6'3" which is an ideal height/target for a passer. He was the closest body frame they had to Jeff Smardijza whenever they saw shorter corners to take advantage of.
Believe it or not, Quinn had similar numbers there except he won more frequently. I think when Quinn was playing there - they weren't talking about firing Charlie Weis. Some will say the QB can't play defense too. True, but I'm of the opinion if he's supposed to be the next Joe Montana, nobody worries about the defense because he's just THAT good. We're talking about justification for being the first QB drafted in 2010 draft and I just didn't see anything that makes me feel like Clausen is a gotta have for a franchise desperately in need of better QBing. Big need but not happy with the supply for our demand at our first pick.
I guess I don't blame him for coming out early rather than staying in school to learn a brand new system. This kid DID improve but looked like he needed another year of refinement before someone takes him as the first QB in this draft. I don't see the similarities to Matt Sanchez in terms of winning percentage in the final year, which only translated to 12 TD passes against 20 INTs on a NFL team that won 9 games in 2008. NY needed Indy to take a knee to better 8-8 this year and it looks like they caught Cincy minus 2 starting LBers, Chris Crocker and Antwaan Odom (who was leading the NFL in sacks prior to getting hurt).
- Tom F.
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Do you think Sanchez is a stud QB?
At times (like yesterday but let's remember he's also had that 5-6 INT performance). Sure looks like he CAN be but before I hang all over yesterday's exception to the rule let's think out loud here.
We're looking at 12 TD passes to 20 INTs for a team coming off 9 wins in 2008. That's not your typical hot prospect QB going to a cruddy environment where's there no chance to succeed in season #1. I can think of many worse olines than Ferguson, Faneca, Mangold, Moore and Woody. Quite a few Pro Bowls on the resume of that group. How about these RBs to support him? Thomas Jones and Shonn Greene. They also Leon Washington before he went on IR. His TE is a 1st round draft pick too, which is exactly what a young QB needs (see Pettigrew for Stafford in Detroit).
All this said, if Indy doesn't take a knee - that's an 8-8 football team inspite of the TOP running game and elite ranked defense. Sanchez had his best game against a Cincy D without their best pass rusher, 2 starting LBers, and Chris Crocker. It felt like they rushed for 300 yards which should have left countless guys wide open all over the field. He threw a gorgeous pass that predictably bounced off the 1 on Braylon's chest. I don't know where Joe Theismann got that stat of Braylon only dropping 6 passes - his counting skills must have gotten rusty since playing QB manmy moons ago.
- Tom F.
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I pretty sure Suh and Berry will be gone when we pick but I can't stand the thought of Jimmy Clausen being the #1 projected QB. You know how it takes at least 10 beers to turn a female cornhusker into a hottie? I'd need about 18-24 beers to like what I see in Jimmy Clausen's game as a football player. I think the kid from Central Michigan (LeFever) sees the field better whereas Golden Tate's unbelieveable athleticism allowed Clausen to lock onto his favorite target most of the time. In addition, I think he throws too many flutter balls which translates into picks at the next level. There's just something about him I don't like.
Will this be a year where there's QB gems after round 1?
This goes to anyone that wants to answer it - What would be your ideal first 3 rounds for the Browns in the 2010 Draft?
- Tom F.
Tom I agree- Suh will not last past Detroit if the Rams opt best qb on the board. If the Rams and Lions both go D, Suh and Berry may well be the first two prospects off the board. Find it hard to rationalize the Browns would go to the ND well twice in a row. Bradford scares me with his injury history, McCoy got himself hurt in the NC game so ditto there. So no qb in the first round for me, thank you very much.
Browns needs- IMHO
1) stud pass rusher
2) legit #1 wr
3) enforcer safety (don't see Berry falling this far)
4) shut down corner (this is my bet where the Browns draft Hayden to go with Wright)
5) RT (the Browns will seriously consider Okung here if he's still on the board)
6) stud LB
7) developmental qb. The Browns have 3 third rounders- LeFevere or Pike if they're still here.
Tom I agree- Suh will not last past Detroit if the Rams opt best qb on the board. If the Rams and Lions both go D, Suh and Berry may well be the first two prospects off the board. Find it hard to rationalize the Browns would go to the ND well twice in a row. Bradford scares me with his injury history, McCoy got himself hurt in the NC game so ditto there. So no qb in the first round for me, thank you very much.
Browns needs- IMHO
1) stud pass rusher
2) legit #1 wr
3) enforcer safety (don't see Berry falling this far)
4) shut down corner (this is my bet where the Browns draft Hayden to go with Wright)
5) RT (the Browns will seriously consider Okung here if he's still on the board)
6) stud LB
7) developmental qb. The Browns have 3 third rounders- LeFevere or Pike if they're still here.
I would point out that McCoy's brachial plexus injury is generally self-limited and not recurring. Doesn't require surgery. McCoy doesn't have a significant injury history.
To play along with your needs though, I think we have a lot of flexibility here in terms of players available in different rounds...
1) Stud pass rusher-- Sergio Kindle (Texas) "a violent tackler". Will beat most left tackles on speed alone but needs to develop secondary move and do better when engaged. There are others.
2) Legit #1 WR-- Dez Bryant (Oklahoma State)-- has lapses but no denying he's the top WR.
3) SF--Berry or Mays. If neither available, Earl Thomas although he's more of a free safety/CB than a SS.
4) Shutdown CB-- Haden. I do like Perrish Cox from Oklahoma State. I think that in the 3-4, you're looking at bigger CB's. Cox is 6' and close to 200 lbs. He's a second rounder.
5) RT-- Lots of options here. I mentioned Ulatoski whom I know from Texas but there are many others. I like the kid from Rutgers (Anthony Davis). Chris Scott from Tennessee has started at every position up front.
6) Stud LB-- Rolando McClain is some kinda nasty. I like Daryl Washington from TCU.
7) Developmental QB-- my man, Colt McCoy is just such a legend at my alma mater that I can't stomach watching him at the next level for fear that he might not be as successful. I think that he has enough talent to be an NFL QB but this guy will be over-scrutinized and nitpicked to death before the draft with 50% saying he's awesome and 50% saying he'll never make it. He's a winner. He's smart, athletic and accurate. If he drops to rounds 3 or 4, I can't see why you'd pass. The guy I've got my eye on though is LeFevour.
Just my .02. Who've you got your eyes on?
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I've heard the announcers/analysts say that but what does it mean, exactly?
You know how Quinn doesn't always settle his feet properly and the ball floats? If he had exceptional mechanics all around, he wouldn't do that. Sanchez just makes stupid decisions.
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I've heard the announcers/analysts say that but what does it mean, exactly?
You know how Quinn doesn't always settle his feet properly and the ball floats? If he had exceptional mechanics all around, he wouldn't do that. Sanchez just makes stupid decisions.
You know how Quinn doesn't always settle his feet properly and the ball floats? If he had exceptional mechanics all around, he wouldn't do that. Sanchez just makes stupid decisions.
But if I were watching for good mechanics what would I be watching for? What are "properly set" feet, etc? I don't want to be a QB coach, just a quick tutorial on proper mechanics would be helpful.
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This is what concerns me about Jimmy Clausen:
Teams were so fearful of getting beat deep by Clausen & Notre Dame's explosive receivers that most played very soft coverage, giving Clausen a lot of safe, easy throws. That made Clausen's decisionmaking & accuracy look a lot better than it actually was.
When teams played Notre Dame's receivers tight, like UConn did and Pitt did in the 1st half, Clausen was a lot less effective. You saw throws nearly picked and semi-open receivers have footballs bounce at their feet. Clausen oscillated between being too aggressive and too conservative with his throws, and it wasn't very pretty. Similarly, he wasn't impressive throwing into tight spots in the red zone. His red zone completion percentage for the year was below 50%.
Also, I'm concerned about his personality, which has been described as "quirky", "egotistical", even "bipolar". Some people like his fiery persona; other see a little Jay Cutler in him. I'm not sure what to think.
His physicals tools are solid, though his deep ball hangs a little and he lacks ideal size: there's speculation that he's a shade under 6'2", not 6'3". I think he'll be an okay starting quarterback, but I'm not sure I see him developing into an elite QB. He'll probably be a better quarterback than Quinn, but I don't like him as much as I liked Sanchez last year.
In the end, the Clausen debate probably won't matter much, as I doubt the Browns will have a chance to draft him. If they do end up having one, I'd probably be against bringing him to Cleveland. But I'll trust Holmgren's judgement when it comes to QB's.
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I've heard the announcers/analysts say that but what does it mean, exactly?
You know how Quinn doesn't always settle his feet properly and the ball floats? If he had exceptional mechanics all around, he wouldn't do that. Sanchez just makes stupid decisions.
You know how Quinn doesn't always settle his feet properly and the ball floats? If he had exceptional mechanics all around, he wouldn't do that. Sanchez just makes stupid decisions.
You know what's funny T - Tom Brady praised Charlie Weis for being the tutor that started him out with the ideal mechanics and footwork. He basically shaped his game.
On the other hand, BOTH Quinn and Clausen seem to share this problem with the feet. Clausen had the turf toe so maybe that's just an injury adjustment on his part. I think when Quinn played the 3 military Academies and Michigan State - he could MAINTAIN the footwork Weis asked of him. When he played opponents like Ohio State, Oregan State, LSU and other teams more talented - he got antsy and sloppy. That seems to be more of the picture he's conveying to me at the NFL level.
I think it's just as important to look at the film of losses for these QBs prospects as it is to see them in overall talent mismatches or on their best days.
- Tom F.
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I pretty sure Suh and Berry will be gone when we pick but I can't stand the thought of Jimmy Clausen being the #1 projected QB. You know how it takes at least 10 beers to turn a female cornhusker into a hottie? I'd need about 18-24 beers to like what I see in Jimmy Clausen's game as a football player. I think the kid from Central Michigan (LeFever) sees the field better whereas Golden Tate's unbelieveable athleticism allowed Clausen to lock onto his favorite target most of the time. In addition, I think he throws too many flutter balls which translates into picks at the next level. There's just something about him I don't like.
Do we try to find the next Percy Harvin in round 1 to add TDs to our WR corps? My guess is this would be Golden Tate barring a disappointing 40 time ahead. I remembered saying we could use some more weapons in our passing game last year and the 1 guy I wanted most of all just got Offensive Rookie of the Year. That said, I liked the way things worked out with Alex Mack.
Do we go after a corner like Hayden, which someone already mentioned here?
Is there a gotta have available at Right Tackle?
What if RB CJ Spiller is on our doorstep? I know we have Harrison but Carolina has a pretty good deal when DeAngelo Williams can't dress on Sundays. Even when he does, Stewart's fresh legs is a nice 1-2 punch and change of pace.
Will this be a year where there's QB gems after round 1?
This goes to anyone that wants to answer it - What would be your ideal first 3 rounds for the Browns in the 2010 Draft?
- Tom F.
Tom, I'm with you on Clausen. His deep ball hangs up forever. I don't have anything else against his game but I think one ND QB on this team is enough.
I think that the Haden pick is a no brainer.
For me, I think that rounds 1-3 go:
Haden, CB, Florida
Adam Ulatoski, OL, Texas (only if you plan to play him at RT)
Dan LeFevour, QB, C Michigan
For me, I think that rounds 1-3 go:
Haden, CB, Florida
Adam Ulatoski, OL, Texas (only if you plan to play him at RT)
Dan LeFevour, QB, C Michigan
I think the 2nd Round is a little too high for Ulatowski.
Suh's dominance over the Longhorns' interior OL was the main event of the Big 12 Championship Game, but Barry Turner also embarrassed Ulatowski, notching 2.5 sacks. Turner probably isn't good enough to start at the next level, so it doesn't bode well for Ulatowski's future, even if he's going to move to right tackle.
Ulatowski also was bad in the Texas Tech loss last year, routinely getting destroyed by McKinner Dixon. He could get a look in the mid-rounds, but I don't think he'll start right away: he needs time to develop.
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This is what concerns me about Jimmy Clausen:
Teams were so fearful of getting beat deep by Clausen & Notre Dame's explosive receivers that most played very soft coverage, giving Clausen a lot of safe, easy throws. That made Clausen's decisionmaking & accuracy look a lot better than it actually was.
When teams played Notre Dame's receivers tight, like UConn did and Pitt did in the 1st half, Clausen was a lot less effective. You saw throws nearly picked and semi-open receivers have footballs bounce at their feet. Clausen oscillated between being too aggressive and too conservative with his throws, and it wasn't very pretty. Similarly, he wasn't impressive throwing into tight spots in the red zone. His red zone completion percentage for the year was below 50%.
Also, I'm concerned about his personality, which has been described as "quirky", "egotistical", even "bipolar". Some people like his fiery persona; other see a little Jay Cutler in him. I'm not sure what to think.
His physicals tools are solid, though his deep ball hangs a little and he lacks ideal size: there's speculation that he's a shade under 6'2", not 6'3". I think he'll be an okay starting quarterback, but I'm not sure I see him developing into an elite QB. He'll probably be a better quarterback than Quinn, but I don't like him as much as I liked Sanchez last year.
In the end, the Clausen debate probably won't matter much, as I doubt the Browns will have a chance to draft him. If they do end up having one, I'd probably be against bringing him to Cleveland. But I'll trust Holmgren's judgement when it comes to QB's.
This is what concerns me about Jimmy Clausen:
Teams were so fearful of getting beat deep by Clausen & Notre Dame's explosive receivers that most played very soft coverage, giving Clausen a lot of safe, easy throws. That made Clausen's decisionmaking & accuracy look a lot better than it actually was.
When teams played Notre Dame's receivers tight, like UConn did and Pitt did in the 1st half, Clausen was a lot less effective. You saw throws nearly picked and semi-open receivers have footballs bounce at their feet. Clausen oscillated between being too aggressive and too conservative with his throws, and it wasn't very pretty. Similarly, he wasn't impressive throwing into tight spots in the red zone. His red zone completion percentage for the year was below 50%.
Also, I'm concerned about his personality, which has been described as "quirky", "egotistical", even "bipolar". Some people like his fiery persona; other see a little Jay Cutler in him. I'm not sure what to think.
His physicals tools are solid, though his deep ball hangs a little and he lacks ideal size: there's speculation that he's a shade under 6'2", not 6'3". I think he'll be an okay starting quarterback, but I'm not sure I see him developing into an elite QB. He'll probably be a better quarterback than Quinn, but I don't like him as much as I liked Sanchez last year.
In the end, the Clausen debate probably won't matter much, as I doubt the Browns will have a chance to draft him. If they do end up having one, I'd probably be against bringing him to Cleveland. But I'll trust Holmgren's judgement when it comes to QB's.
YOWSA! Great stuff Alo! I like the specifics you bring up followed by the examples of them on video.
- Tom F.
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Two things.
First: massive cushions on Tate weren't the norm, but Clausen was good consistently. The Irish were good at finding ways to open things up for Tate. Close coverage on Tate meant long passes, well thrown by Clausen, and caught by Tate. Big cushion meant something underneath. There really were no weaknesses in the connection between those two. I don't see how it can be a criticism of either player that they exploited what the D gave them.
Second: looking at Quinn in losses IS just as important as looking at blowouts. I just hate that no one who's not a diehard fan of the Irish seems to care about what he did except for in losses. And even then, they focus on the bad games. If you want to be objective, look at what he did in all the games.
vs. Georgia Tech: 23-38, 246 yards 0 TD, 0 INT (ran for one TD)
vs. Penn State: 25-36, 287 yards, 4 TD, 0 INT
vs. Michigan 24-48, 234 yards, 3 TD, 3 INT (Loss)
vs. Michigan State 20-36, 319 yards, 5 TD, 1 INT
vs. Purdue 29-38, 316 yards, 2 TD, 0 INT
vs. Stanford 27-37, 232 yards, 3 TD, 0 INT
vs. UCLA 27-45, 304 yards, 2 TD, 0 INT
vs. UNC 23-35, 346 yards, 4 TD, 0 INT
vs. USC 22-45, 274 yards, 3 TD, 0 INT (Loss)
vs. LSU 15-35, 148 yards, 2 TD, 2 INT (Loss)
BQ's senior year minus service academies: 28 TDs, 6 INTs (7-3 record)
Those numbers compare favorably to any QB in NCAA history.
Just in losses: 61-128, 653 yards, 8 TD, 5 INT
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Two things.
First: massive cushions on Tate weren't the norm, but Clausen was good consistently. The Irish were good at finding ways to open things up for Tate. Close coverage on Tate meant long passes, well thrown by Clausen, and caught by Tate. Big cushion meant something underneath. There really were no weaknesses in the connection between those two. I don't see how it can be a criticism of either player that they exploited what the D gave them.
Second: looking at Quinn in losses IS just as important as looking at blowouts. I just hate that no one who's not a diehard fan of the Irish seems to care about what he did except for in losses. And even then, they focus on the bad games. If you want to be objective, look at what he did in all the games.
vs. Georgia Tech: 23-38, 246 yards 0 TD, 0 INT (ran for one TD)
vs. Penn State: 25-36, 287 yards, 4 TD, 0 INT
vs. Michigan 24-48, 234 yards, 3 TD, 3 INT (Loss)
vs. Michigan State 20-36, 319 yards, 5 TD, 1 INT
vs. Purdue 29-38, 316 yards, 2 TD, 0 INT
vs. Stanford 27-37, 232 yards, 3 TD, 0 INT
vs. UCLA 27-45, 304 yards, 2 TD, 0 INT
vs. UNC 23-35, 346 yards, 4 TD, 0 INT
vs. USC 22-45, 274 yards, 3 TD, 0 INT (Loss)
vs. LSU 15-35, 148 yards, 2 TD, 2 INT (Loss)
BQ's senior year minus service academies: 28 TDs, 6 INTs (7-3 record)
Those numbers compare favorably to any QB in NCAA history.
Just in losses: 61-128, 653 yards, 8 TD, 5 INT
Second: looking at Quinn in losses IS just as important as looking at blowouts. I just hate that no one who's not a diehard fan of the Irish seems to care about what he did except for in losses. And even then, they focus on the bad games.
True but what do you think people did with Troy Smith? He was only held to the standard of 1 loss, which was a National Championship Game about 50 days after he crushed Michigan's heart the 2nd consecutive time and countless Heisman Trophy banquet speeches. Pretty unfair IMO. The ONLY differences between Troy Smith and Drew Brees coming out of that Big 10 was the brushcut afro and the John Boy Walton freckle. Not sure why Troy becomes the 5th round pick and Drew goes much earlier. Without the hindsight - neither is anyone else if they are being honest.
Then again, Tim Couch once becomes the consensus 1st overall pick to Donovan McNabb because it was said the Pro game didn't have any place for a college QB running Veer Option offense. This of course completely dismisses that Couch was actually recruited to run a wishbone offense (which is even less conducive to the NFL style of offense) similar to what Quinn was recruited to run for Ty Willingham. Forget that Brett Favre QB'd a very similar college offense to the one McNabb QB'd at SU. It sure seems like there's some stereotyping of height and style of offense from some NFL scouts. People were just waiting for that first bad day from Troy Smith so they could define him the way they always wanted to as some inncercity kid that got into trouble before he went on to be a hero at Ohio State. SOMETIMES, something like this can be a success story if we allow it to be.
I'd LOVE things to be fair because we could get a pretty bargain priced Troy Smith to come in and compete with whichever QB we keep for the starting job. People can't wait to insult Troy Smith without really knowing why. Tressel sure defied the odds and silenced critics using him. Seems to me the last time I watched a matchup of Troy Smith's arm vrs Quinn's arm, there was no contest in which one was more impressive. One guy needed excuses for losing, which has crossed over to the next level. The other guy was just accurate enough for compliments and changing the scoreboard. I haven't seen Quinn do a thing at the NFL level (outside of 2 desperate pass defenses like Detroit's in 09 and Denver's of 08). We lost both of those matchups because Quinn couldn't hang with the scoring paces of those 2 opposing QBs. Troy was going to start in 2008 if it weren't for a freaky throat infection that hospitalized him and kept him out of pads for a month. There's nothing to lose in bringing him home for an opportunity to compete for a starting job.
I look at how people want to favorably compare Quinn as a QB to Troy Smith and I feel like asking them what was the specific REASON Troy Smith won the Heisman. Ready for this? Performance. This wasn't a Gino Torreta type of Heisman - it was the college football version of Peyton Manning winning an MVP. When Peyton lost his first playoff matchup each and seemingly every time - who held him to his 1 bad playoff performance over the things that led to MVP caliber? Nobody.
- Tom F.
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You know how Quinn doesn't always settle his feet properly and the ball floats? If he had exceptional mechanics all around, he wouldn't do that. Sanchez just makes stupid decisions.
But if I were watching for good mechanics what would I be watching for? What are "properly set" feet, etc? I don't want to be a QB coach, just a quick tutorial on proper mechanics would be helpful.
But if I were watching for good mechanics what would I be watching for? What are "properly set" feet, etc? I don't want to be a QB coach, just a quick tutorial on proper mechanics would be helpful.
Here's what I look for:
The short version: The QB's feet and arms should exhibit an "economy of motion" (i.e., the less wasted movement the better)
The detailed version:
The QB mechanics break down into two main areas:
1) Lower Body
2) Upper Body
I put them in that order because poor lower body mechanics leads to poor upper body mechanics.
1) Lower Body-- The QB accepts the snap and then has basically four movements immediately off of the snap. He has a 3, 5 and 7 step drop. He also has different mechanics to hand off. When he accepts the exchange from center he'll then drop step with his throwing foot (i.e., the same side foot that corresponds to his throwing arm. Right for righties, left for lefties). He then has to cross with the contralateral foot for step two. The next step is with the first foot and so on and so forth. The reason the drops are numbered as "odd steps" is that the same-side foot has to be the last one because they have to drive off of that foot to initiate the throw. For instance, a three step drop is quick and is a throw to short routes...so the rhythm is 1-2-3-throw. The crossing of the feet is key. Some guys are very smooth with this and others are uncoordinated and shuffle/stumble their way back. Other guys are frequently caught in between steps. At the appropriate depth of the drop, that last step has to plant firmly and the player's stance should be athletic with a good base for balance. They push off of the back foot and drive their weight forward with the the front foot rotating their hips (Tom Brady is particularly good at the drive and hip turn). NO THROWING OFF OF THE BACK FOOT!
On handoffs, it's a little different because whether it's a straight handoff or a stretch...the QB has to open their hips right off of the snap. On the stretch they have to have some mobility to get to the handoff point. There is some agility involved here.
2)Upper Body-- On pulling out from center the QB's head and eyes are ideally downfield. Some guys do keep their head centered so it's harder to see where they're looking (Brett Favre does this) but they should be going through their reads as they drop. The shoulders should be perpendicular with the line of scrimmage when possible and the ball should be held high (with two hands) near the upper shoulder/ear hole area. (see Peyton Manning). The positioning of the ball helps avoid fumbles from carelessness but more importantly it gets rid of a hitch because the ball is already in a good starting position for the throw (Steve Young). The throwing motion should be compact (NOT TIM TEBOW OR LEFTWICH). The arm angle is important in the sense that a QB makes himself shorter with a sidearm throw and for some guys that's an issue. The follow through should end up with their throwing hand almost in their opposite pants pocket (Tom Brady). The release point should ideally be in the middle of the throw and the wrist snap offers a tighter spiral (important for bad weather....good ones were Marino, Warren Moon and even Michael Vick has a great wrist release).
These are just physical mechanics. Obviously there's more to this than just the physical part of it. Some guys are able to overcome lapses in their mechanics and others cannot. Some guys trust their arm too much. If you look at the 22 Ints that Brett Favre threw last year with the Jets, at least 19 or 20 were mechanics breakdowns and most, if not all, were thrown off of his back foot. His mechanics looked like he simply didn't care but I risk reading too much into that. Brady Quinn is NOT a guy who can overcome bad mechanics. He needs his mechanics to be reproducible and spot on to be effective. Jay Cutler, on the other hand, can occasionally overcome bad mechanics and throw on the run.
Just my version of QB mechanics. Hope that's helpful.
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I think there are a lot of reason why Smith was drafted in the 5th round, but Quinn went in the first. Smith played on a very good team with a dominant defense. Quinn was the best player on his team. I think too many guys look at someone who can throw far and fall in love with that (I'm not saying it's something that's unimportant; I'm saying it's overemphasized). Look at JaMarcus Russell. No one talked about him until the Bowl Game vs. ND. Suddenly, he was a great prospect? No, I always thought of him as a huge arm and nothing else. That's what he seems to be. Troy Smith? Great athlete. Not a QB. Brady Quinn always looked like a really tough competitor, a solid athlete, and a good QB. And that's what everyone said about him until the LSU game. If you watched it, you saw a team vastly outclassed. LSU was simply better across the board. The Irish looked horrible. You can pin it on Quinn, I suppose. He was the best player on the team, but he didn't win it for them. I simply felt terrible for him because almost no one showed up (certainly not his line).
I'm still a bit surprised that people say things like, "I haven't seen Quinn do a thing at the NFL level." I know his numbers overall are unimpressive, but so are a lot of guys who haven't had the key handed over to them for a full season. And plenty of young QBs who start off with unimpressive numbers grow into very good NFL QBs. I don't even think it's a question that Quinn outperformed Anderson this year. Maybe that's not much in the book of some. Still, Quinn has looked good numerous times running the 2-minute drill (for instance, against San Diego this season). He's tough, runs the offense well, can do something with his feet, and I thought was one of the big reasons the team started to gel toward the end of the season. If you haven't seen Quinn do anything, why is Troy Smith even in the conversation?
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