Yuck to the TOP QB prospect!!!

[Flugel]

@trodgers said:

Do you think Sanchez is a stud QB?

At times (like yesterday but let's remember he's also had that 5-6 INT performance). Sure looks like he CAN be but before I hang all over yesterday's exception to the rule let's think out loud here.

We're looking at 12 TD passes to 20 INTs for a team coming off 9 wins in 2008. That's not your typical hot prospect QB going to a cruddy environment where's there no chance to succeed in season #1. I can think of many worse olines than Ferguson, Faneca, Mangold, Moore and Woody. Quite a few Pro Bowls on the resume of that group. How about these RBs to support him? Thomas Jones and Shonn Greene. They also Leon Washington before he went on IR. His TE is a 1st round draft pick too, which is exactly what a young QB needs (see Pettigrew for Stafford in Detroit).

All this said, if Indy doesn't take a knee - that's an 8-8 football team inspite of the TOP running game and elite ranked defense. Sanchez had his best game against a Cincy D without their best pass rusher, 2 starting LBers, and Chris Crocker. It felt like they rushed for 300 yards which should have left countless guys wide open all over the field. He threw a gorgeous pass that predictably bounced off the 1 on Braylon's chest. I don't know where Joe Theismann got that stat of Braylon only dropping 6 passes - his counting skills must have gotten rusty since playing QB manmy moons ago.

- Tom F.

[Flugel]

GREAT stuff folks! Thanks for all the interesting ideas. Keep them coming.

- Tom F.

[Earl34]

@hoorta said:

Tom I agree- Suh will not last past Detroit if the Rams opt best qb on the board. If the Rams and Lions both go D, Suh and Berry may well be the first two prospects off the board. Find it hard to rationalize the Browns would go to the ND well twice in a row. Bradford scares me with his injury history, McCoy got himself hurt in the NC game so ditto there. So no qb in the first round for me, thank you very much.

Browns needs- IMHO

1) stud pass rusher

2) legit #1 wr

3) enforcer safety (don't see Berry falling this far)

4) shut down corner (this is my bet where the Browns draft Hayden to go with Wright)

5) RT (the Browns will seriously consider Okung here if he's still on the board)

6) stud LB

7) developmental qb. The Browns have 3 third rounders- LeFevere or Pike if they're still here.

I would point out that McCoy's brachial plexus injury is generally self-limited and not recurring. Doesn't require surgery. McCoy doesn't have a significant injury history.

To play along with your needs though, I think we have a lot of flexibility here in terms of players available in different rounds...

1) Stud pass rusher-- Sergio Kindle (Texas) "a violent tackler". Will beat most left tackles on speed alone but needs to develop secondary move and do better when engaged. There are others.

2) Legit #1 WR-- Dez Bryant (Oklahoma State)-- has lapses but no denying he's the top WR.

3) SF--Berry or Mays. If neither available, Earl Thomas although he's more of a free safety/CB than a SS.

4) Shutdown CB-- Haden. I do like Perrish Cox from Oklahoma State. I think that in the 3-4, you're looking at bigger CB's. Cox is 6' and close to 200 lbs. He's a second rounder.

5) RT-- Lots of options here. I mentioned Ulatoski whom I know from Texas but there are many others. I like the kid from Rutgers (Anthony Davis). Chris Scott from Tennessee has started at every position up front.

6) Stud LB-- Rolando McClain is some kinda nasty. I like Daryl Washington from TCU.

7) Developmental QB-- my man, Colt McCoy is just such a legend at my alma mater that I can't stomach watching him at the next level for fear that he might not be as successful. I think that he has enough talent to be an NFL QB but this guy will be over-scrutinized and nitpicked to death before the draft with 50% saying he's awesome and 50% saying he'll never make it. He's a winner. He's smart, athletic and accurate. If he drops to rounds 3 or 4, I can't see why you'd pass. The guy I've got my eye on though is LeFevour.

Just my .02. Who've you got your eyes on?

[kshutchins]

@earl34 said:

That said, his [sanchez]mechanics in general and footwork in particular are exceptional.

I've heard the announcers/analysts say that but what does it mean, exactly?

[trodgers]

@kshutchins said:

I've heard the announcers/analysts say that but what does it mean, exactly?

You know how Quinn doesn't always settle his feet properly and the ball floats? If he had exceptional mechanics all around, he wouldn't do that. Sanchez just makes stupid decisions.

[kshutchins]

@trodgers said:

You know how Quinn doesn't always settle his feet properly and the ball floats? If he had exceptional mechanics all around, he wouldn't do that. Sanchez just makes stupid decisions.

But if I were watching for good mechanics what would I be watching for? What are "properly set" feet, etc? I don't want to be a QB coach, just a quick tutorial on proper mechanics would be helpful.

[Alo]

This is what concerns me about Jimmy Clausen:

Teams were so fearful of getting beat deep by Clausen & Notre Dame's explosive receivers that most played very soft coverage, giving Clausen a lot of safe, easy throws. That made Clausen's decisionmaking & accuracy look a lot better than it actually was.

When teams played Notre Dame's receivers tight, like UConn did and Pitt did in the 1st half, Clausen was a lot less effective. You saw throws nearly picked and semi-open receivers have footballs bounce at their feet. Clausen oscillated between being too aggressive and too conservative with his throws, and it wasn't very pretty. Similarly, he wasn't impressive throwing into tight spots in the red zone. His red zone completion percentage for the year was below 50%.

Also, I'm concerned about his personality, which has been described as "quirky", "egotistical", even "bipolar". Some people like his fiery persona; other see a little Jay Cutler in him. I'm not sure what to think.

His physicals tools are solid, though his deep ball hangs a little and he lacks ideal size: there's speculation that he's a shade under 6'2", not 6'3". I think he'll be an okay starting quarterback, but I'm not sure I see him developing into an elite QB. He'll probably be a better quarterback than Quinn, but I don't like him as much as I liked Sanchez last year.

In the end, the Clausen debate probably won't matter much, as I doubt the Browns will have a chance to draft him. If they do end up having one, I'd probably be against bringing him to Cleveland. But I'll trust Holmgren's judgement when it comes to QB's.

[Flugel]

@trodgers said:

You know how Quinn doesn't always settle his feet properly and the ball floats? If he had exceptional mechanics all around, he wouldn't do that. Sanchez just makes stupid decisions.

You know what's funny T - Tom Brady praised Charlie Weis for being the tutor that started him out with the ideal mechanics and footwork. He basically shaped his game.

On the other hand, BOTH Quinn and Clausen seem to share this problem with the feet. Clausen had the turf toe so maybe that's just an injury adjustment on his part. I think when Quinn played the 3 military Academies and Michigan State - he could MAINTAIN the footwork Weis asked of him. When he played opponents like Ohio State, Oregan State, LSU and other teams more talented - he got antsy and sloppy. That seems to be more of the picture he's conveying to me at the NFL level.

I think it's just as important to look at the film of losses for these QBs prospects as it is to see them in overall talent mismatches or on their best days.

- Tom F.

[Alo]

@earl34 said:

For me, I think that rounds 1-3 go:

Haden, CB, Florida

Adam Ulatoski, OL, Texas (only if you plan to play him at RT)

Dan LeFevour, QB, C Michigan

I think the 2nd Round is a little too high for Ulatowski.

Suh's dominance over the Longhorns' interior OL was the main event of the Big 12 Championship Game, but Barry Turner also embarrassed Ulatowski, notching 2.5 sacks. Turner probably isn't good enough to start at the next level, so it doesn't bode well for Ulatowski's future, even if he's going to move to right tackle.

Ulatowski also was bad in the Texas Tech loss last year, routinely getting destroyed by McKinner Dixon. He could get a look in the mid-rounds, but I don't think he'll start right away: he needs time to develop.

[Flugel]

@alo said:

This is what concerns me about Jimmy Clausen:

Teams were so fearful of getting beat deep by Clausen & Notre Dame's explosive receivers that most played very soft coverage, giving Clausen a lot of safe, easy throws. That made Clausen's decisionmaking & accuracy look a lot better than it actually was.

When teams played Notre Dame's receivers tight, like UConn did and Pitt did in the 1st half, Clausen was a lot less effective. You saw throws nearly picked and semi-open receivers have footballs bounce at their feet. Clausen oscillated between being too aggressive and too conservative with his throws, and it wasn't very pretty. Similarly, he wasn't impressive throwing into tight spots in the red zone. His red zone completion percentage for the year was below 50%.

Also, I'm concerned about his personality, which has been described as "quirky", "egotistical", even "bipolar". Some people like his fiery persona; other see a little Jay Cutler in him. I'm not sure what to think.

His physicals tools are solid, though his deep ball hangs a little and he lacks ideal size: there's speculation that he's a shade under 6'2", not 6'3". I think he'll be an okay starting quarterback, but I'm not sure I see him developing into an elite QB. He'll probably be a better quarterback than Quinn, but I don't like him as much as I liked Sanchez last year.

In the end, the Clausen debate probably won't matter much, as I doubt the Browns will have a chance to draft him. If they do end up having one, I'd probably be against bringing him to Cleveland. But I'll trust Holmgren's judgement when it comes to QB's.

YOWSA! Great stuff Alo! I like the specifics you bring up followed by the examples of them on video.

- Tom F.

[trodgers]

Two things.

First: massive cushions on Tate weren't the norm, but Clausen was good consistently. The Irish were good at finding ways to open things up for Tate. Close coverage on Tate meant long passes, well thrown by Clausen, and caught by Tate. Big cushion meant something underneath. There really were no weaknesses in the connection between those two. I don't see how it can be a criticism of either player that they exploited what the D gave them.

Second: looking at Quinn in losses IS just as important as looking at blowouts. I just hate that no one who's not a diehard fan of the Irish seems to care about what he did except for in losses. And even then, they focus on the bad games. If you want to be objective, look at what he did in all the games.

vs. Georgia Tech: 23-38, 246 yards 0 TD, 0 INT (ran for one TD)

vs. Penn State: 25-36, 287 yards, 4 TD, 0 INT

vs. Michigan 24-48, 234 yards, 3 TD, 3 INT (Loss)

vs. Michigan State 20-36, 319 yards, 5 TD, 1 INT

vs. Purdue 29-38, 316 yards, 2 TD, 0 INT

vs. Stanford 27-37, 232 yards, 3 TD, 0 INT

vs. UCLA 27-45, 304 yards, 2 TD, 0 INT

vs. UNC 23-35, 346 yards, 4 TD, 0 INT

vs. USC 22-45, 274 yards, 3 TD, 0 INT (Loss)

vs. LSU 15-35, 148 yards, 2 TD, 2 INT (Loss)

BQ's senior year minus service academies: 28 TDs, 6 INTs (7-3 record)

Those numbers compare favorably to any QB in NCAA history.

Just in losses: 61-128, 653 yards, 8 TD, 5 INT

[Flugel]

@trodgers said:

Second: looking at Quinn in losses IS just as important as looking at blowouts. I just hate that no one who's not a diehard fan of the Irish seems to care about what he did except for in losses. And even then, they focus on the bad games.

True but what do you think people did with Troy Smith? He was only held to the standard of 1 loss, which was a National Championship Game about 50 days after he crushed Michigan's heart the 2nd consecutive time and countless Heisman Trophy banquet speeches. Pretty unfair IMO. The ONLY differences between Troy Smith and Drew Brees coming out of that Big 10 was the brushcut afro and the John Boy Walton freckle. Not sure why Troy becomes the 5th round pick and Drew goes much earlier. Without the hindsight - neither is anyone else if they are being honest.

Then again, Tim Couch once becomes the consensus 1st overall pick to Donovan McNabb because it was said the Pro game didn't have any place for a college QB running Veer Option offense. This of course completely dismisses that Couch was actually recruited to run a wishbone offense (which is even less conducive to the NFL style of offense) similar to what Quinn was recruited to run for Ty Willingham. Forget that Brett Favre QB'd a very similar college offense to the one McNabb QB'd at SU. It sure seems like there's some stereotyping of height and style of offense from some NFL scouts. People were just waiting for that first bad day from Troy Smith so they could define him the way they always wanted to as some inncercity kid that got into trouble before he went on to be a hero at Ohio State. SOMETIMES, something like this can be a success story if we allow it to be.

I'd LOVE things to be fair because we could get a pretty bargain priced Troy Smith to come in and compete with whichever QB we keep for the starting job. People can't wait to insult Troy Smith without really knowing why. Tressel sure defied the odds and silenced critics using him. Seems to me the last time I watched a matchup of Troy Smith's arm vrs Quinn's arm, there was no contest in which one was more impressive. One guy needed excuses for losing, which has crossed over to the next level. The other guy was just accurate enough for compliments and changing the scoreboard. I haven't seen Quinn do a thing at the NFL level (outside of 2 desperate pass defenses like Detroit's in 09 and Denver's of 08). We lost both of those matchups because Quinn couldn't hang with the scoring paces of those 2 opposing QBs. Troy was going to start in 2008 if it weren't for a freaky throat infection that hospitalized him and kept him out of pads for a month. There's nothing to lose in bringing him home for an opportunity to compete for a starting job.

I look at how people want to favorably compare Quinn as a QB to Troy Smith and I feel like asking them what was the specific REASON Troy Smith won the Heisman. Ready for this? Performance. This wasn't a Gino Torreta type of Heisman - it was the college football version of Peyton Manning winning an MVP. When Peyton lost his first playoff matchup each and seemingly every time - who held him to his 1 bad playoff performance over the things that led to MVP caliber? Nobody.

- Tom F.

[Earl34]

@kshutchins said:

But if I were watching for good mechanics what would I be watching for? What are "properly set" feet, etc? I don't want to be a QB coach, just a quick tutorial on proper mechanics would be helpful.

Here's what I look for:

The short version: The QB's feet and arms should exhibit an "economy of motion" (i.e., the less wasted movement the better)

The detailed version:

The QB mechanics break down into two main areas:

1) Lower Body

2) Upper Body

I put them in that order because poor lower body mechanics leads to poor upper body mechanics.

1) Lower Body-- The QB accepts the snap and then has basically four movements immediately off of the snap. He has a 3, 5 and 7 step drop. He also has different mechanics to hand off. When he accepts the exchange from center he'll then drop step with his throwing foot (i.e., the same side foot that corresponds to his throwing arm. Right for righties, left for lefties). He then has to cross with the contralateral foot for step two. The next step is with the first foot and so on and so forth. The reason the drops are numbered as "odd steps" is that the same-side foot has to be the last one because they have to drive off of that foot to initiate the throw. For instance, a three step drop is quick and is a throw to short routes...so the rhythm is 1-2-3-throw. The crossing of the feet is key. Some guys are very smooth with this and others are uncoordinated and shuffle/stumble their way back. Other guys are frequently caught in between steps. At the appropriate depth of the drop, that last step has to plant firmly and the player's stance should be athletic with a good base for balance. They push off of the back foot and drive their weight forward with the the front foot rotating their hips (Tom Brady is particularly good at the drive and hip turn). NO THROWING OFF OF THE BACK FOOT!

On handoffs, it's a little different because whether it's a straight handoff or a stretch...the QB has to open their hips right off of the snap. On the stretch they have to have some mobility to get to the handoff point. There is some agility involved here.

2)Upper Body-- On pulling out from center the QB's head and eyes are ideally downfield. Some guys do keep their head centered so it's harder to see where they're looking (Brett Favre does this) but they should be going through their reads as they drop. The shoulders should be perpendicular with the line of scrimmage when possible and the ball should be held high (with two hands) near the upper shoulder/ear hole area. (see Peyton Manning). The positioning of the ball helps avoid fumbles from carelessness but more importantly it gets rid of a hitch because the ball is already in a good starting position for the throw (Steve Young). The throwing motion should be compact (NOT TIM TEBOW OR LEFTWICH). The arm angle is important in the sense that a QB makes himself shorter with a sidearm throw and for some guys that's an issue. The follow through should end up with their throwing hand almost in their opposite pants pocket (Tom Brady). The release point should ideally be in the middle of the throw and the wrist snap offers a tighter spiral (important for bad weather....good ones were Marino, Warren Moon and even Michael Vick has a great wrist release).

These are just physical mechanics. Obviously there's more to this than just the physical part of it. Some guys are able to overcome lapses in their mechanics and others cannot. Some guys trust their arm too much. If you look at the 22 Ints that Brett Favre threw last year with the Jets, at least 19 or 20 were mechanics breakdowns and most, if not all, were thrown off of his back foot. His mechanics looked like he simply didn't care but I risk reading too much into that. Brady Quinn is NOT a guy who can overcome bad mechanics. He needs his mechanics to be reproducible and spot on to be effective. Jay Cutler, on the other hand, can occasionally overcome bad mechanics and throw on the run.

Just my version of QB mechanics. Hope that's helpful.

[trodgers]

I think there are a lot of reason why Smith was drafted in the 5th round, but Quinn went in the first. Smith played on a very good team with a dominant defense. Quinn was the best player on his team. I think too many guys look at someone who can throw far and fall in love with that (I'm not saying it's something that's unimportant; I'm saying it's overemphasized). Look at JaMarcus Russell. No one talked about him until the Bowl Game vs. ND. Suddenly, he was a great prospect? No, I always thought of him as a huge arm and nothing else. That's what he seems to be. Troy Smith? Great athlete. Not a QB. Brady Quinn always looked like a really tough competitor, a solid athlete, and a good QB. And that's what everyone said about him until the LSU game. If you watched it, you saw a team vastly outclassed. LSU was simply better across the board. The Irish looked horrible. You can pin it on Quinn, I suppose. He was the best player on the team, but he didn't win it for them. I simply felt terrible for him because almost no one showed up (certainly not his line).

I'm still a bit surprised that people say things like, "I haven't seen Quinn do a thing at the NFL level." I know his numbers overall are unimpressive, but so are a lot of guys who haven't had the key handed over to them for a full season. And plenty of young QBs who start off with unimpressive numbers grow into very good NFL QBs. I don't even think it's a question that Quinn outperformed Anderson this year. Maybe that's not much in the book of some. Still, Quinn has looked good numerous times running the 2-minute drill (for instance, against San Diego this season). He's tough, runs the offense well, can do something with his feet, and I thought was one of the big reasons the team started to gel toward the end of the season. If you haven't seen Quinn do anything, why is Troy Smith even in the conversation?

[Earl34]

@alo said:

I think the 2nd Round is a little too high for Ulatowski.

Suh's dominance over the Longhorns' interior OL was the main event of the Big 12 Championship Game, but Barry Turner also embarrassed Ulatowski, notching 2.5 sacks. Turner probably isn't good enough to start at the next level, so it doesn't bode well for Ulatowski's future, even if he's going to move to right tackle.

Ulatowski also was bad in the Texas Tech loss last year, routinely getting destroyed by McKinner Dixon. He could get a look in the mid-rounds, but I don't think he'll start right away: he needs time to develop.

Alo, I won't disagree. I think this line is one of the weakest in the last ten years. That said, most people I've talked to or read seem to agree that his future in the NFL is at RT or even OG. He's massive but is limited in his athleticism. This doesn't strike me as a good interior offensive line/RT class but I could be wrong.

[Flugel]

@trodgers said:

I think there are a lot of reason why Smith was drafted in the 5th round, but Quinn went in the first. Smith played on a very good team with a dominant defense.

Ohio State REPLACED 9 defensive starters heading into his senior year while losing 5 juniors to the NFL draft T. I think you need to research this better. That was a big reason why Jim Rome was cautioning Buckeye fans that AJ Hawk wouldn't bet Packer teammate Charles Woodson. BOTH years, Troy had to overcome Michigan leads which doesn't really convey Troy's defense was bailing him out.

Troy Smith enters this conversation because he wants to come and get an opportunity with a franchise in a position like our's. Cleveland just so happens to be his home town and it was the team he grew up rooting for.

Again, I was one of the ones that WANTED Quinn to succeed (because of our commitment to him); but I have to be honest about what I've seen from him T. The Detroit Game where he finally connected on deep passes weren't progressive reads as much as they were 5-7 step drops (plant and throw) to an area against one of the worst coverage teams in the NFL. These are timing patterns not reading a progression and throwing with precision. He's way too slow in his reads and players jump his routes too easily. KC was givign huge cushions and he overthrew a wideopen receiver into the chest of the DB 10-15 deeper than this receiver. It was a brutal INT and of course Daboll got blamed for it more than Quinn by some.

- Tom F.

[maintainin125]

Troy Smith would be a nice option. He was and is a better qb than Brady Quinn. If Troy Smith does not get traded here hopefully our new gm from Philly brings Michael Vick with him.

[cambridgeho]

Please no Mike Vick.

Dawg pound and Mike Vick just don't go together

[Mark O]

Vick wasn't a good QB before he spent 3 years in the slammer. He still isn't a good QB. He's Cribbs with more speed but without the strength that Cribbs has.

[cambridgeho]

Damn it we need the Fevour, The Dan Lefevour.