Yuck to the TOP QB prospect!!!
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Hey, did you just add that line about my being an ND fan? I didn't see it before. I don't see a reason why what college team we like should have any impact on this debate. One guy had an incredible season despite the players around him. One guy had an incredible season because of the players around him. That's how I see it. That's how scouts saw it. That's how teams drafted.
Hey, did you just add that line about my being an ND fan? I didn't see it before. I don't see a reason why what college team we like should have any impact on this debate. One guy had an incredible season despite the players around him. One guy had an incredible season because of the players around him. That's how I see it. That's how scouts saw it. That's how teams drafted.
While you are not reasearching Smith's surroundings, you might as well continue not researching Quinn's surroundings either... all but a couple players on his offense either were drafted, got into NFL camps for a serious look, or spurned the NFL (baseball, ministry), some of them were starting before he got a start. He wasn't alone.
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I think that play really only worked because they were afraid of Vick running the ball. It was a pass out of a WildDawg...something we should do more of with Cribbs because it would make the running game with him even more effective.
I still think Philly looks at Kolb as the future starter and Vick as nothing more than Pat White in Miami or that dude from the Jets last night.
I think you just brought up the rationale of why Philly is more confortable with Vick's assets. The difference between Vick and Pat White was Vick was a #1 overall pick due to some surprising arm strength coinciding with his 4.2 speed. Pat White was seen as more of a long term project where he'll have to work to strengthen his arm. He DID lead his team to an NFC Championship Game regardless of how people liked the way he played QB.
I think SOME thought he'd become a poor man's Steve Young on draft day based on the wheels/elusiveness and seeing the accuracy improve when the speed of the game slowed. Let's not forget Steve Young playing QB with track shoes in Tampa wasn't anything like the 28 year old star emerging when he had Rice, Taylor, TO, Brent Jones, Rathman and Garner/Hearst as his targets. That didn't happen overnight and maybe a WCO Coach like Andy Reid feels this can be the same change Vick needs to better his accuracy and consistency his critics hold so dearly.
I don't think they would invest the time they are with him right now if they wanted to make Kolb their guy. I can't imagine he's excited when Vick inhibits his reps, growth and experience. I've got a weird vibe one of their QBs gets sent packing and I'm not so sure it's Vick. I've certainly been wrong before when it comes to QBs.
- Tom F.
I think you just brought up the rationale of why Philly is more confortable with Vick's assets. The difference between Vick and Pat White was Vick was a #1 overall pick due to some surprising arm strength coinciding with his 4.2 speed. Pat White was seen as more of a long term project where he'll have to work to strengthen his arm. He DID lead his team to an NFC Championship Game regardless of how people liked the way he played QB.
I think SOME thought he'd become a poor man's Steve Young on draft day based on the wheels/elusiveness and seeing the accuracy improve when the speed of the game slowed. Let's not forget Steve Young playing QB with track shoes in Tampa wasn't anything like the 28 year old star emerging when he had Rice, Taylor, TO, Brent Jones, Rathman and Garner/Hearst as his targets. That didn't happen overnight and maybe a WCO Coach like Andy Reid feels this can be the same change Vick needs to better his accuracy and consistency his critics hold so dearly.
I don't think they would invest the time they are with him right now if they wanted to make Kolb their guy. I can't imagine he's excited when Vick inhibits his reps, growth and experience. I've got a weird vibe one of their QBs gets sent packing and I'm not so sure it's Vick. I've certainly been wrong before when it comes to QBs.
- Tom F.
I think one of them is ending up in St. Louis. I really believe it will be Vick, I don't know why. All the signs point to no, but I just feel like Vick could start over in St. Louis. The offensive line in St. Louis is bad, and it's going to take at least another season for it to get any better. They've got some decent rookies, with Jason Smith, Phil Trautwein and Roger Allen. John Greco from Youngstown is young as well, but I don't know how long he'll start. Eric Young is still very young as well. Basically, they've got a handful of youngins, and no real experience. Alex Barron is unquestionably the most talented vet on that line, and that's not saying too much. I think a quarterback of Vick's caliber could go a long way to improving their record for the next couple of seasons. He's not really a stop-gap, because he still has some years on him. But he's also not a long-term QB, either. They could pick up Vick and groom another QB behind him. Maybe a Ryan Mallet or Greg McElroy in next year's draft. I think he would come pretty cheap, too.
That's just what I believe.
I'm awesome, and I fuck dolphins. Ghoolie 12/2/2012: I have absolutely no skills, training or pride -
Al Davis will want Mike Vick in the end. All the raiders actually need is a QB right now, they also might need some lineman but they have a good D and a young and up and coming Offense. Vick would be a savior in the eyes of Al Davis.
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Al Davis will want Mike Vick in the end. All the raiders actually need is a QB right now, they also might need some lineman but they have a good D and a young and up and coming Offense. Vick would be a savior in the eyes of Al Davis.
Al Davis will want Mike Vick in the end. All the raiders actually need is a QB right now, they also might need some lineman but they have a good D and a young and up and coming Offense. Vick would be a savior in the eyes of Al Davis.
You know, it's funny. I never once gave Oakland any consideration in the Mike Vick front. That's a good point, Al Davis is probably drooling over Vick. Then again, he's 850 years old. He drools constantly.
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He still rocks the shit out of those kick ass jump suits though.
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He still rocks the shit out of those kick ass jump suits though.
He still rocks the shit out of those kick ass jump suits though.
He has to. They're the only things keeping his body together.
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Hey, did you just add that line about my being an ND fan? I didn't see it before. I don't see a reason why what college team we like should have any impact on this debate. One guy had an incredible season despite the players around him. One guy had an incredible season because of the players around him. That's how I see it. That's how scouts saw it. That's how teams drafted.
While you are not reasearching Smith's surroundings, you might as well continue not researching Quinn's surroundings either... all but a couple players on his offense either were drafted, got into NFL camps for a serious look, or spurned the NFL (baseball, ministry), some of them were starting before he got a start. He wasn't alone.
While you are not reasearching Smith's surroundings, you might as well continue not researching Quinn's surroundings either... all but a couple players on his offense either were drafted, got into NFL camps for a serious look, or spurned the NFL (baseball, ministry), some of them were starting before he got a start. He wasn't alone.
Did you watch every game of Quinn's career, and nearly every ND game for the past 25 years? If not, you probably aren't better equipped to pronounce judgments on ND's personnel when Quinn was there than I am. ND had a solid offensive line, a good TE, a solid WR, and a very good QB. You can believe what you will, but everyone who watched Notre Dame regularly saw that he was, far and away, the best player on that team.
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I pretty sure Suh and Berry will be gone when we pick but I can't stand the thought of Jimmy Clausen being the #1 projected QB. You know how it takes at least 10 beers to turn a female cornhusker into a hottie? I'd need about 18-24 beers to like what I see in Jimmy Clausen's game as a football player. I think the kid from Central Michigan (LeFever) sees the field better whereas Golden Tate's unbelieveable athleticism allowed Clausen to lock onto his favorite target most of the time. In addition, I think he throws too many flutter balls which translates into picks at the next level. There's just something about him I don't like.
Will this be a year where there's QB gems after round 1?
This goes to anyone that wants to answer it - What would be your ideal first 3 rounds for the Browns in the 2010 Draft?
- Tom F.
Tom I agree- Suh will not last past Detroit if the Rams opt best qb on the board. If the Rams and Lions both go D, Suh and Berry may well be the first two prospects off the board. Find it hard to rationalize the Browns would go to the ND well twice in a row. Bradford scares me with his injury history, McCoy got himself hurt in the NC game so ditto there. So no qb in the first round for me, thank you very much.
Browns needs- IMHO
1) stud pass rusher
2) legit #1 wr
3) enforcer safety (don't see Berry falling this far)
4) shut down corner (this is my bet where the Browns draft Hayden to go with Wright)
5) RT (the Browns will seriously consider Okung here if he's still on the board)
6) stud LB
7) developmental qb. The Browns have 3 third rounders- LeFevere or Pike if they're still here.
Tom I agree- Suh will not last past Detroit if the Rams opt best qb on the board. If the Rams and Lions both go D, Suh and Berry may well be the first two prospects off the board. Find it hard to rationalize the Browns would go to the ND well twice in a row. Bradford scares me with his injury history, McCoy got himself hurt in the NC game so ditto there. So no qb in the first round for me, thank you very much.
Browns needs- IMHO
1) stud pass rusher
2) legit #1 wr
3) enforcer safety (don't see Berry falling this far)
4) shut down corner (this is my bet where the Browns draft Hayden to go with Wright)
5) RT (the Browns will seriously consider Okung here if he's still on the board)
6) stud LB
7) developmental qb. The Browns have 3 third rounders- LeFevere or Pike if they're still here.
trent williams or bruce campbell with the army of darkness
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I hope the Browns draft either Haden or one of the O-linemen.
We need studs on the O-line - without an O-line it doesn't matter who's at QB or RB. Thomas is great; Steinbach and Mack are good.
Wright is a great #2 CB, McCutcheon is a great #3.. with Haden, the defensive backfield instantly improves tremendously.
Unless he's drafted already, they need Haden. If he's taken, pick Okung.. third option is Williams.
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I hope the Browns draft either Haden or one of the O-linemen.
We need studs on the O-line - without an O-line it doesn't matter who's at QB or RB. Thomas is great; Steinbach and Mack are good.
Wright is a great #2 CB, McCutcheon is a great #3.. with Haden, the defensive backfield instantly improves tremendously.
Unless he's drafted already, they need Haden. If he's taken, pick Okung.. third option is Williams.
I hope the Browns draft either Haden or one of the O-linemen.
We need studs on the O-line - without an O-line it doesn't matter who's at QB or RB. Thomas is great; Steinbach and Mack are good.
Wright is a great #2 CB, McCutcheon is a great #3.. with Haden, the defensive backfield instantly improves tremendously.
Unless he's drafted already, they need Haden. If he's taken, pick Okung.. third option is Williams.
Daylon McCutcheon retired after the 2007 season. After we released him. Did you mean McDonald?
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I think you just brought up the rationale of why Philly is more confortable with Vick's assets. The difference between Vick and Pat White was Vick was a #1 overall pick due to some surprising arm strength coinciding with his 4.2 speed. Pat White was seen as more of a long term project where he'll have to work to strengthen his arm. He DID lead his team to an NFC Championship Game regardless of how people liked the way he played QB.
I think SOME thought he'd become a poor man's Steve Young on draft day based on the wheels/elusiveness and seeing the accuracy improve when the speed of the game slowed. Let's not forget Steve Young playing QB with track shoes in Tampa wasn't anything like the 28 year old star emerging when he had Rice, Taylor, TO, Brent Jones, Rathman and Garner/Hearst as his targets. That didn't happen overnight and maybe a WCO Coach like Andy Reid feels this can be the same change Vick needs to better his accuracy and consistency his critics hold so dearly.
I don't think they would invest the time they are with him right now if they wanted to make Kolb their guy. I can't imagine he's excited when Vick inhibits his reps, growth and experience. I've got a weird vibe one of their QBs gets sent packing and I'm not so sure it's Vick. I've certainly been wrong before when it comes to QBs.
- Tom F.
I think one of them is ending up in St. Louis. I really believe it will be Vick, I don't know why. All the signs point to no, but I just feel like Vick could start over in St. Louis. The offensive line in St. Louis is bad, and it's going to take at least another season for it to get any better. They've got some decent rookies, with Jason Smith, Phil Trautwein and Roger Allen. John Greco from Youngstown is young as well, but I don't know how long he'll start. Eric Young is still very young as well. Basically, they've got a handful of youngins, and no real experience. Alex Barron is unquestionably the most talented vet on that line, and that's not saying too much. I think a quarterback of Vick's caliber could go a long way to improving their record for the next couple of seasons. He's not really a stop-gap, because he still has some years on him. But he's also not a long-term QB, either. They could pick up Vick and groom another QB behind him. Maybe a Ryan Mallet or Greg McElroy in next year's draft. I think he would come pretty cheap, too.
That's just what I believe.
I think one of them is ending up in St. Louis. I really believe it will be Vick, I don't know why. All the signs point to no, but I just feel like Vick could start over in St. Louis. The offensive line in St. Louis is bad, and it's going to take at least another season for it to get any better. They've got some decent rookies, with Jason Smith, Phil Trautwein and Roger Allen. John Greco from Youngstown is young as well, but I don't know how long he'll start. Eric Young is still very young as well. Basically, they've got a handful of youngins, and no real experience. Alex Barron is unquestionably the most talented vet on that line, and that's not saying too much. I think a quarterback of Vick's caliber could go a long way to improving their record for the next couple of seasons. He's not really a stop-gap, because he still has some years on him. But he's also not a long-term QB, either. They could pick up Vick and groom another QB behind him. Maybe a Ryan Mallet or Greg McElroy in next year's draft. I think he would come pretty cheap, too.
That's just what I believe.
You make some interesting points Couch Pulls! Remember what people thought of Steve Young when he left Tampa Bay? In Tampa his nickname was "the Running Man." Young wrote in his autobiography that he started believing what he was reading in the media that he had small hands which weren't compatible with humdity and slippery footballs. Something alon g that line. Was that REALLY the case or did he just need surroundings like Jerry Rice, John Taylor, TO, Brent Jones, Tom Rathman, Garrison Hearst and Charlie Garner? You get guys like that around you with some All Pro blockers in front of you and suddenly you're not thinking: "Should I stay or should I go" in that pocket (or outside it) any more.
Not saying Vick is going to be the next Steve Young - but it's worth noting what an overwhelming majority thought of him as an NFL QB before he was about 28 years old. You could be right about the Rams or Philly could be grooming him for more of the offense as they contemplate gettign rid of the Donovan McNabb the fans never even embraced on draft day (because of some RB that would eventually require a marijuana sabbatical named Ricky). I don't know what McNabb's latest contract status is in terms of commitment. If he stays, it keeps Kolb at #3 and if he goes I think it pormotes Vick into the driver seat. That only leaves an unhappy Kevin Kolb and agent.
The ONLY thing I'll say about Troy Smith is that because of where he was drafted - he's a low risk addition at garage sale prices. I don't think I have any legs to stand on if I'm arguing on behalf of either QB we had to start in 2009. If that's not enough, we're reading about Quinn's injury and the uncertainty of it returning after 2 consecutive trips to IR.
- Tom F
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I think one of them is ending up in St. Louis. I really believe it will be Vick, I don't know why. All the signs point to no, but I just feel like Vick could start over in St. Louis. The offensive line in St. Louis is bad, and it's going to take at least another season for it to get any better. They've got some decent rookies, with Jason Smith, Phil Trautwein and Roger Allen. John Greco from Youngstown is young as well, but I don't know how long he'll start. Eric Young is still very young as well. Basically, they've got a handful of youngins, and no real experience. Alex Barron is unquestionably the most talented vet on that line, and that's not saying too much. I think a quarterback of Vick's caliber could go a long way to improving their record for the next couple of seasons. He's not really a stop-gap, because he still has some years on him. But he's also not a long-term QB, either. They could pick up Vick and groom another QB behind him. Maybe a Ryan Mallet or Greg McElroy in next year's draft. I think he would come pretty cheap, too.
That's just what I believe.
You make some interesting points Couch Pulls! Remember what people thought of Steve Young when he left Tampa Bay? In Tampa his nickname was "the Running Man." Young wrote in his autobiography that he started believing what he was reading in the media that he had small hands which weren't compatible with humdity and slippery footballs. Something alon g that line. Was that REALLY the case or did he just need surroundings like Jerry Rice, John Taylor, TO, Brent Jones, Tom Rathman, Garrison Hearst and Charlie Garner? You get guys like that around you with some All Pro blockers in front of you and suddenly you're not thinking: "Should I stay or should I go" in that pocket (or outside it) any more.
Not saying Vick is going to be the next Steve Young - but it's worth noting what an overwhelming majority thought of him as an NFL QB before he was about 28 years old. You could be right about the Rams or Philly could be grooming him for more of the offense as they contemplate gettign rid of the Donovan McNabb the fans never even embraced on draft day (because of some RB that would eventually require a marijuana sabbatical named Ricky). I don't know what McNabb's latest contract status is in terms of commitment. If he stays, it keeps Kolb at #3 and if he goes I think it pormotes Vick into the driver seat. That only leaves an unhappy Kevin Kolb and agent.
The ONLY thing I'll say about Troy Smith is that because of where he was drafted - he's a low risk addition at garage sale prices. I don't think I have any legs to stand on if I'm arguing on behalf of either QB we had to start in 2009. If that's not enough, we're reading about Quinn's injury and the uncertainty of it returning after 2 consecutive trips to IR.
- Tom F
You make some interesting points Couch Pulls! Remember what people thought of Steve Young when he left Tampa Bay? In Tampa his nickname was "the Running Man." Young wrote in his autobiography that he started believing what he was reading in the media that he had small hands which weren't compatible with humdity and slippery footballs. Something alon g that line. Was that REALLY the case or did he just need surroundings like Jerry Rice, John Taylor, TO, Brent Jones, Tom Rathman, Garrison Hearst and Charlie Garner? You get guys like that around you with some All Pro blockers in front of you and suddenly you're not thinking: "Should I stay or should I go" in that pocket (or outside it) any more.
Not saying Vick is going to be the next Steve Young - but it's worth noting what an overwhelming majority thought of him as an NFL QB before he was about 28 years old. You could be right about the Rams or Philly could be grooming him for more of the offense as they contemplate gettign rid of the Donovan McNabb the fans never even embraced on draft day (because of some RB that would eventually require a marijuana sabbatical named Ricky). I don't know what McNabb's latest contract status is in terms of commitment. If he stays, it keeps Kolb at #3 and if he goes I think it pormotes Vick into the driver seat. That only leaves an unhappy Kevin Kolb and agent.
The ONLY thing I'll say about Troy Smith is that because of where he was drafted - he's a low risk addition at garage sale prices. I don't think I have any legs to stand on if I'm arguing on behalf of either QB we had to start in 2009. If that's not enough, we're reading about Quinn's injury and the uncertainty of it returning after 2 consecutive trips to IR.
- Tom F
Tom,
I am not disagreeing, well, okay...perhaps a little bit.
First off, despite all of his troubles, Ricky Williams has shown that he could have been a tremendous HOF level RB. He rushed for 1883 yards in 2003 and his renaissance after age 30 was the subject of a feel good comeback story. He was the real deal. Mike Ditka made him into the farce that he became and then Ricky added the Mary Jane.
Second, I would say that in his college years and early career, Michael Vick was arguably one of the five most exciting football players I'd ever seen. He was not a great QB but he had very good mechanics and athleticism. Lest we forget that Michael Vick led the Falcons to the playoffs and beat Favre and the Pack at Lambeau for the first time ever. He was voted to two Pro Bowls and ran for more yards than any other QB except Randall Cunningham and Steve Young. I am not saying that Michael Vick was a great (or even good) QB (rumor has it that 95% of the Virginia Tech playbook had to be thrown out because he couldn't learn it) but he did win football games under Dan Reeves and he put butts in the seats. Can he recapture any of that? I don't know. Even though I was never a fan of his teams, I always would stop when I saw he was on to see what he'd do next. He has actually accomplished something in this league which can't be said for everyone. This isn't an endorsement of him so the Browns can trade for him but rather a fan that wants some fairness in depicting his resume (good or bad).
Troy Smith, on the other hand, suffers from a different problem. His resume is limited. I wouldn't say that there's enough evidence to say that he can't play NFL level QB and if a favorable contract was to be forged, he could have a chance. I think that, in part, Troy Smith suffered the same problem as Chris Simms after Simms ruptured his spleen. He lost a lot of weight after his illness and it was an opportunity for an organization to write off someone that they were lukewarm about "just because". He otherwise was supposedly to get a chance to play before it all happened.
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You make some interesting points Couch Pulls! Remember what people thought of Steve Young when he left Tampa Bay? In Tampa his nickname was "the Running Man." Young wrote in his autobiography that he started believing what he was reading in the media that he had small hands which weren't compatible with humdity and slippery footballs. Something alon g that line. Was that REALLY the case or did he just need surroundings like Jerry Rice, John Taylor, TO, Brent Jones, Tom Rathman, Garrison Hearst and Charlie Garner? You get guys like that around you with some All Pro blockers in front of you and suddenly you're not thinking: "Should I stay or should I go" in that pocket (or outside it) any more.
Not saying Vick is going to be the next Steve Young - but it's worth noting what an overwhelming majority thought of him as an NFL QB before he was about 28 years old. You could be right about the Rams or Philly could be grooming him for more of the offense as they contemplate gettign rid of the Donovan McNabb the fans never even embraced on draft day (because of some RB that would eventually require a marijuana sabbatical named Ricky). I don't know what McNabb's latest contract status is in terms of commitment. If he stays, it keeps Kolb at #3 and if he goes I think it pormotes Vick into the driver seat. That only leaves an unhappy Kevin Kolb and agent.
The ONLY thing I'll say about Troy Smith is that because of where he was drafted - he's a low risk addition at garage sale prices. I don't think I have any legs to stand on if I'm arguing on behalf of either QB we had to start in 2009. If that's not enough, we're reading about Quinn's injury and the uncertainty of it returning after 2 consecutive trips to IR.
- Tom F
Tom,
I am not disagreeing, well, okay...perhaps a little bit.
First off, despite all of his troubles, Ricky Williams has shown that he could have been a tremendous HOF level RB. He rushed for 1883 yards in 2003 and his renaissance after age 30 was the subject of a feel good comeback story. He was the real deal. Mike Ditka made him into the farce that he became and then Ricky added the Mary Jane.
Second, I would say that in his college years and early career, Michael Vick was arguably one of the five most exciting football players I'd ever seen. He was not a great QB but he had very good mechanics and athleticism. Lest we forget that Michael Vick led the Falcons to the playoffs and beat Favre and the Pack at Lambeau for the first time ever. He was voted to two Pro Bowls and ran for more yards than any other QB except Randall Cunningham and Steve Young. I am not saying that Michael Vick was a great (or even good) QB (rumor has it that 95% of the Virginia Tech playbook had to be thrown out because he couldn't learn it) but he did win football games under Dan Reeves and he put butts in the seats. Can he recapture any of that? I don't know. Even though I was never a fan of his teams, I always would stop when I saw he was on to see what he'd do next. He has actually accomplished something in this league which can't be said for everyone. This isn't an endorsement of him so the Browns can trade for him but rather a fan that wants some fairness in depicting his resume (good or bad).
Troy Smith, on the other hand, suffers from a different problem. His resume is limited. I wouldn't say that there's enough evidence to say that he can't play NFL level QB and if a favorable contract was to be forged, he could have a chance. I think that, in part, Troy Smith suffered the same problem as Chris Simms after Simms ruptured his spleen. He lost a lot of weight after his illness and it was an opportunity for an organization to write off someone that they were lukewarm about "just because". He otherwise was supposedly to get a chance to play before it all happened.
Tom,
I am not disagreeing, well, okay...perhaps a little bit.
First off, despite all of his troubles, Ricky Williams has shown that he could have been a tremendous HOF level RB. He rushed for 1883 yards in 2003 and his renaissance after age 30 was the subject of a feel good comeback story. He was the real deal. Mike Ditka made him into the farce that he became and then Ricky added the Mary Jane.
Second, I would say that in his college years and early career, Michael Vick was arguably one of the five most exciting football players I'd ever seen. He was not a great QB but he had very good mechanics and athleticism. Lest we forget that Michael Vick led the Falcons to the playoffs and beat Favre and the Pack at Lambeau for the first time ever. He was voted to two Pro Bowls and ran for more yards than any other QB except Randall Cunningham and Steve Young. I am not saying that Michael Vick was a great (or even good) QB (rumor has it that 95% of the Virginia Tech playbook had to be thrown out because he couldn't learn it) but he did win football games under Dan Reeves and he put butts in the seats. Can he recapture any of that? I don't know. Even though I was never a fan of his teams, I always would stop when I saw he was on to see what he'd do next. He has actually accomplished something in this league which can't be said for everyone. This isn't an endorsement of him so the Browns can trade for him but rather a fan that wants some fairness in depicting his resume (good or bad).
Troy Smith, on the other hand, suffers from a different problem. His resume is limited. I wouldn't say that there's enough evidence to say that he can't play NFL level QB and if a favorable contract was to be forged, he could have a chance. I think that, in part, Troy Smith suffered the same problem as Chris Simms after Simms ruptured his spleen. He lost a lot of weight after his illness and it was an opportunity for an organization to write off someone that they were lukewarm about "just because". He otherwise was supposedly to get a chance to play before it all happened.
Good points Earl. My point wasn't to bash Ricky Williams as much as to point out how a guy like McNabb changed Philly's culture from deserving to be the first team to draft (after us using a expansion first format) into a team that's always in the playoffs and been in 5 NFC Championship Games since the 99 draft. Ricky, on the other hand, found himself somewhat overwhelmed at the transition from college to pros if we remember readign about him needing to get on prozac. Not only that but think about what Philly would draft at RB in the 3rd or 4th round by the name of Brian Westbrook. IMO, he was a betetr fit to Philly's offense than Rickey would have been.
I thought of Michael Vick much the way you did when he came out of college, which was why I was q
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You make some interesting points Couch Pulls! Remember what people thought of Steve Young when he left Tampa Bay? In Tampa his nickname was "the Running Man." Young wrote in his autobiography that he started believing what he was reading in the media that he had small hands which weren't compatible with humdity and slippery footballs. Something alon g that line. Was that REALLY the case or did he just need surroundings like Jerry Rice, John Taylor, TO, Brent Jones, Tom Rathman, Garrison Hearst and Charlie Garner? You get guys like that around you with some All Pro blockers in front of you and suddenly you're not thinking: "Should I stay or should I go" in that pocket (or outside it) any more.
Not saying Vick is going to be the next Steve Young - but it's worth noting what an overwhelming majority thought of him as an NFL QB before he was about 28 years old. You could be right about the Rams or Philly could be grooming him for more of the offense as they contemplate gettign rid of the Donovan McNabb the fans never even embraced on draft day (because of some RB that would eventually require a marijuana sabbatical named Ricky). I don't know what McNabb's latest contract status is in terms of commitment. If he stays, it keeps Kolb at #3 and if he goes I think it pormotes Vick into the driver seat. That only leaves an unhappy Kevin Kolb and agent.
The ONLY thing I'll say about Troy Smith is that because of where he was drafted - he's a low risk addition at garage sale prices. I don't think I have any legs to stand on if I'm arguing on behalf of either QB we had to start in 2009. If that's not enough, we're reading about Quinn's injury and the uncertainty of it returning after 2 consecutive trips to IR.
- Tom F
Tom,
I am not disagreeing, well, okay...perhaps a little bit.
First off, despite all of his troubles, Ricky Williams has shown that he could have been a tremendous HOF level RB. He rushed for 1883 yards in 2003 and his renaissance after age 30 was the subject of a feel good comeback story. He was the real deal. Mike Ditka made him into the farce that he became and then Ricky added the Mary Jane.
Second, I would say that in his college years and early career, Michael Vick was arguably one of the five most exciting football players I'd ever seen. He was not a great QB but he had very good mechanics and athleticism. Lest we forget that Michael Vick led the Falcons to the playoffs and beat Favre and the Pack at Lambeau for the first time ever. He was voted to two Pro Bowls and ran for more yards than any other QB except Randall Cunningham and Steve Young. I am not saying that Michael Vick was a great (or even good) QB (rumor has it that 95% of the Virginia Tech playbook had to be thrown out because he couldn't learn it) but he did win football games under Dan Reeves and he put butts in the seats. Can he recapture any of that? I don't know. Even though I was never a fan of his teams, I always would stop when I saw he was on to see what he'd do next. He has actually accomplished something in this league which can't be said for everyone. This isn't an endorsement of him so the Browns can trade for him but rather a fan that wants some fairness in depicting his resume (good or bad).
Troy Smith, on the other hand, suffers from a different problem. His resume is limited. I wouldn't say that there's enough evidence to say that he can't play NFL level QB and if a favorable contract was to be forged, he could have a chance. I think that, in part, Troy Smith suffered the same problem as Chris Simms after Simms ruptured his spleen. He lost a lot of weight after his illness and it was an opportunity for an organization to write off someone that they were lukewarm about "just because". He otherwise was supposedly to get a chance to play before it all happened.
Tom,
I am not disagreeing, well, okay...perhaps a little bit.
First off, despite all of his troubles, Ricky Williams has shown that he could have been a tremendous HOF level RB. He rushed for 1883 yards in 2003 and his renaissance after age 30 was the subject of a feel good comeback story. He was the real deal. Mike Ditka made him into the farce that he became and then Ricky added the Mary Jane.
Second, I would say that in his college years and early career, Michael Vick was arguably one of the five most exciting football players I'd ever seen. He was not a great QB but he had very good mechanics and athleticism.
Good points Earl. I think McNabb was a better fit in Philly than the Ricky Williams who would need prozac to handle his adjustment to the NFL better. Philly's made it to 5 NFC Championships since 1999 and 1 Superbowl. Not only that, but Philly got a GREAT bargain in Brian Westbrook out of Villanova in round 3 or 4 - who's been an epic key to Philly's success as well.
As for Micahel Vick, I shared your enthusiasm for him coming out of college and explained I though him leading Atlanta to an NFC Championship Game appearance was a good accomplishment people often forget. That's why I was compelled to correct someone comparing Pat White to Vick.
As for Troy Smith - I just LIKE the guy. I know there's people stuck on pause with what all those scouts thought of where he should be projected. That said, MOST scouts had Jamarcus Russell as the #1 rated QB just like most scouts wouldn't have recommended Tom Brady before round 6 back in 2000. When it comes to the QB - there is NO exact science. That's why brasses come and go every single year because that's just such a hard thing to get right. Take a guy like Kurt Warner - NOBODY had that guy pegged before the draft for how he's playing today and since his coming out party in St Louis. Guess what? Is Tony Romo a similar story? And Brett Favre played at a school that ran that same similar style of offense that Donovan McNabb played in at college - it was Veer Option style of offense (prompting many scouts to stick their noses in the air at Favre and McNabb). Of course, there's us drafting Couch AND Quinn where BOTH kids were recruited to QB offenses that ran alot of wishbone plays before their last coaches had them chicking the ball downfield.
With ANY QB - you gotta do your research and go with you gut. Good news? Holmgren's Packers once had the following QBs employed at 1 time: Kurt Warner, Matt Hasselback, Brett Favre and Mark Brunell. Somebody knew how to find some good prospects there.
- Tom F.
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Tom,
I am not disagreeing, well, okay...perhaps a little bit.
First off, despite all of his troubles, Ricky Williams has shown that he could have been a tremendous HOF level RB. He rushed for 1883 yards in 2003 and his renaissance after age 30 was the subject of a feel good comeback story. He was the real deal. Mike Ditka made him into the farce that he became and then Ricky added the Mary Jane.
Second, I would say that in his college years and early career, Michael Vick was arguably one of the five most exciting football players I'd ever seen. He was not a great QB but he had very good mechanics and athleticism.
Good points Earl. I think McNabb was a better fit in Philly than the Ricky Williams who would need prozac to handle his adjustment to the NFL better. Philly's made it to 5 NFC Championships since 1999 and 1 Superbowl. Not only that, but Philly got a GREAT bargain in Brian Westbrook out of Villanova in round 3 or 4 - who's been an epic key to Philly's success as well.
As for Micahel Vick, I shared your enthusiasm for him coming out of college and explained I though him leading Atlanta to an NFC Championship Game appearance was a good accomplishment people often forget. That's why I was compelled to correct someone comparing Pat White to Vick.
As for Troy Smith - I just LIKE the guy. I know there's people stuck on pause with what all those scouts thought of where he should be projected. That said, MOST scouts had Jamarcus Russell as the #1 rated QB just like most scouts wouldn't have recommended Tom Brady before round 6 back in 2000. When it comes to the QB - there is NO exact science. That's why brasses come and go every single year because that's just such a hard thing to get right. Take a guy like Kurt Warner - NOBODY had that guy pegged before the draft for how he's playing today and since his coming out party in St Louis. Guess what? Is Tony Romo a similar story? And Brett Favre played at a school that ran that same similar style of offense that Donovan McNabb played in at college - it was Veer Option style of offense (prompting many scouts to stick their noses in the air at Favre and McNabb). Of course, there's us drafting Couch AND Quinn where BOTH kids were recruited to QB offenses that ran alot of wishbone plays before their last coaches had them chicking the ball downfield.
With ANY QB - you gotta do your research and go with you gut. Good news? Holmgren's Packers once had the following QBs employed at 1 time: Kurt Warner, Matt Hasselback, Brett Favre and Mark Brunell. Somebody knew how to find some good prospects there.
- Tom F.
Good points Earl. I think McNabb was a better fit in Philly than the Ricky Williams who would need prozac to handle his adjustment to the NFL better. Philly's made it to 5 NFC Championships since 1999 and 1 Superbowl. Not only that, but Philly got a GREAT bargain in Brian Westbrook out of Villanova in round 3 or 4 - who's been an epic key to Philly's success as well.
As for Micahel Vick, I shared your enthusiasm for him coming out of college and explained I though him leading Atlanta to an NFC Championship Game appearance was a good accomplishment people often forget. That's why I was compelled to correct someone comparing Pat White to Vick.
As for Troy Smith - I just LIKE the guy. I know there's people stuck on pause with what all those scouts thought of where he should be projected. That said, MOST scouts had Jamarcus Russell as the #1 rated QB just like most scouts wouldn't have recommended Tom Brady before round 6 back in 2000. When it comes to the QB - there is NO exact science. That's why brasses come and go every single year because that's just such a hard thing to get right. Take a guy like Kurt Warner - NOBODY had that guy pegged before the draft for how he's playing today and since his coming out party in St Louis. Guess what? Is Tony Romo a similar story? And Brett Favre played at a school that ran that same similar style of offense that Donovan McNabb played in at college - it was Veer Option style of offense (prompting many scouts to stick their noses in the air at Favre and McNabb). Of course, there's us drafting Couch AND Quinn where BOTH kids were recruited to QB offenses that ran alot of wishbone plays before their last coaches had them chicking the ball downfield.
With ANY QB - you gotta do your research and go with you gut. Good news? Holmgren's Packers once had the following QBs employed at 1 time: Kurt Warner, Matt Hasselback, Brett Favre and Mark Brunell. Somebody knew how to find some good prospects there.
- Tom F.
Very good info man.
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Good points Earl. I think McNabb was a better fit in Philly than the Ricky Williams who would need prozac to handle his adjustment to the NFL better. Philly's made it to 5 NFC Championships since 1999 and 1 Superbowl. Not only that, but Philly got a GREAT bargain in Brian Westbrook out of Villanova in round 3 or 4 - who's been an epic key to Philly's success as well.
As for Micahel Vick, I shared your enthusiasm for him coming out of college and explained I though him leading Atlanta to an NFC Championship Game appearance was a good accomplishment people often forget. That's why I was compelled to correct someone comparing Pat White to Vick.
As for Troy Smith - I just LIKE the guy. I know there's people stuck on pause with what all those scouts thought of where he should be projected. That said, MOST scouts had Jamarcus Russell as the #1 rated QB just like most scouts wouldn't have recommended Tom Brady before round 6 back in 2000. When it comes to the QB - there is NO exact science. That's why brasses come and go every single year because that's just such a hard thing to get right. Take a guy like Kurt Warner - NOBODY had that guy pegged before the draft for how he's playing today and since his coming out party in St Louis. Guess what? Is Tony Romo a similar story? And Brett Favre played at a school that ran that same similar style of offense that Donovan McNabb played in at college - it was Veer Option style of offense (prompting many scouts to stick their noses in the air at Favre and McNabb). Of course, there's us drafting Couch AND Quinn where BOTH kids were recruited to QB offenses that ran alot of wishbone plays before their last coaches had them chicking the ball downfield.
With ANY QB - you gotta do your research and go with you gut. Good news? Holmgren's Packers once had the following QBs employed at 1 time: Kurt Warner, Matt Hasselback, Brett Favre and Mark Brunell. Somebody knew how to find some good prospects there.
- Tom F.
Very good info man.
Very good info man.
QB's win Championships, we got two stiffs. Time to get the real deal. Now is not too early to draft a QB with the one pick. I would take Bradford
Offense Wins.......Franchise QB's are the key.............Defense keeps you in the game.........Go Buckeyes -
Very good info man.
QB's win Championships, we got two stiffs. Time to get the real deal. Now is not too early to draft a QB with the one pick. I would take Bradford
QB's win Championships, we got two stiffs. Time to get the real deal. Now is not too early to draft a QB with the one pick. I would take Bradford
I'm glad you're not running this outfit, then.
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If we do not bring in a Mike Vick I wouldn't mind taking a chance on Super Sam Bradford if he checks out alright with the medical staff
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Again...I have to ask...what in the name of all things holy have you people seen in Vick that makes you think he's a good NFL QB? The guy wasn't very good before he spent all that time as a guest of the state, what makes you think that his time in the pokey made him a better QB? Anderson and Quinn are both better at QB than he is.
He's Josh Cribbs with more speed and a better arm and less strength.
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Very good info man.
QB's win Championships, we got two stiffs. Time to get the real deal. Now is not too early to draft a QB with the one pick. I would take Bradford
QB's win Championships, we got two stiffs. Time to get the real deal. Now is not too early to draft a QB with the one pick. I would take Bradford
RE: championships. Sure do- guys like Doug Williams and Trent Dilfer. BTW, I agree Anderson is a stiff.
Baltimore beat the mighty Patsies Tom Brady with Flacco throwing all of 10 passes (4 completions) for 34 yards.
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