Steelers did not make it to the play-offs
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FREAKofSTEEL08 said:
LOL... In your opinion . And I dont really think your dumb. Just that you are ruled by hatred and say stuff that you wouldn't and shouldn't if not for that Bitterness. Its Fandom... I understand. But dont think I wont call you on it. You never budge. I will budge. If I am seriously wrong I listen to reason. Your Hatred wont allow you to do this. Thats my opinion. And i know you dont care... But thats it.I'm more than willing to budge when I realize I'm in the wrong. But I'm hardly ever in the wrong. That's not my ego speaking, that's logic. When there's a conversation going on, and I don't know anything about it, I stay out of it. It prevents embarassment on my part. I only speak my mind when I am 100% sure I know what I am talking about.
As for this argument. I'm not wrong, and neither are you. It's two different ways of looking at something. You're right, the NFL doesn't acknowledge our AAFC titles. But, I'm also right when I say that the Pro Football Hall of Fame does. It's just two different viewpoints. We have won 8 League Titles, it's just that half of them were in another league. Do we have more league titles than the Steelers? Yes. Do we have more NFL titles than the Steelers? Well, no.
It's the same with politics. "You're wrong because you're a Republican, I'm right because I'm a Democrat." It doesn't work that way. It's more like "You have some good ideas, I have some good ideas. Whoever has the most fans, wins." Sadly, that's the case.
I'm more than willing to budge when I realize I'm in the wrong. But I'm hardly ever in the wrong. That's not my ego speaking, that's logic. When there's a conversation going on, and I don't know anything about it, I stay out of it. It prevents embarassment on my part. I only speak my mind when I am 100% sure I know what I am talking about.
As for this argument. I'm not wrong, and neither are you. It's two different ways of looking at something. You're right, the NFL doesn't acknowledge our AAFC titles. But, I'm also right when I say that the Pro Football Hall of Fame does. It's just two different viewpoints. We have won 8 League Titles, it's just that half of them were in another league. Do we have more league titles than the Steelers? Yes. Do we have more NFL titles than the Steelers? Well, no.
It's the same with politics. "You're wrong because you're a Republican, I'm right because I'm a Democrat." It doesn't work that way. It's more like "You have some good ideas, I have some good ideas. Whoever has the most fans, wins." Sadly, that's the case.
Ok... I have to agree with that assesment. Well said. . . . . Sorry I am in Shock. LOL.
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Formerly Stone said:
Now there is a disillusion, bitter, post!More specifically, you HATE the truth. Aren't you the SAME guy that showed us 35 different camera angles of the football not making it to the first down marker? This is the same deal. Your best coaches were CLEVELAND BROWNS. And I see your buddies are editing the results they hate. Here's another snapshot of it all before we say checkmate Stoner!
The Browns were in 10 consecutive Pro Football Championships:
1946 (won)
1947 (won)
1948 (won)
1949 (won)
1950 (won)
1951 (lost)
1952 (lost)
1953 (lost)
1954 (won)
1955 (won)
7 wins 3 losses
1964 (won)
1 win 0 losses
A dynasty of 8-3 that includes 3 different decades. Inside the numbers there's a West Coast Offense that Bill Walsh would later use for his dynasty. There's an Otto Graham and a Jim Brown leading a multiplicity of players into the NFL Hall of Fame. There was absolutely no wreakage of any widespread steroid usage or HGH doctors in the house. Last but not least, there were 2 future Head Coaches named Noll and Shula waiting to put cities on the NFL map in Pittsburgh and Miami. Before the Cleveland Browns, Pittsburgh was the NFL version of Native America before Christopher Columbus showed them the meaning of "how."
- Tom F. (If be envious of the REAL thing too if I was a Steel Orphan)
I welcome the only Defensive Coordinator to earn a Superbowl Ring in New Orleans while understanding Revenge of the Nerds is a sequel. "Come get some!" -
Formerly Stone said:
Now there is a disillusion, bitter, post!More specifically, you HATE the truth. Aren't you the SAME guy that showed us 35 different camera angles of the football not making it to the first down marker? This is the same deal. Your best coaches were CLEVELAND BROWNS. And I see your buddies are editing the results they hate. Here's another snapshot of it all before we say checkmate Stoner!
The Browns were in 10 consecutive Pro Football Championships:
1946 (won)
1947 (won)
1948 (won)
1949 (won)
1950 (won)
1951 (lost)
1952 (lost)
1953 (lost)
1954 (won)
1955 (won)
7 wins 3 losses
1964 (won)
1 win 0 losses
A dynasty of 8-3 that includes 3 different decades. Inside the numbers there's a West Coast Offense that Bill Walsh would later use for his dynasty. There's an Otto Graham and a Jim Brown leading a multiplicity of players into the NFL Hall of Fame. There was absolutely no wreakage of any widespread steroid usage or HGH doctors in the house. Last but not least, there were 2 future Head Coaches named Noll and Shula waiting to put cities on the NFL map in Pittsburgh and Miami. Before the Cleveland Browns, Pittsburgh was the NFL version of Native America before Christopher Columbus showed them the meaning of "how."
- Tom F. (If be envious of the REAL thing too if I was a Steel Orphan)
More specifically, you HATE the truth. Aren't you the SAME guy that showed us 35 different camera angles of the football not making it to the first down marker? This is the same deal. Your best coaches were CLEVELAND BROWNS. And I see your buddies are editing the results they hate. Here's another snapshot of it all before we say checkmate Stoner!
The Browns were in 10 consecutive Pro Football Championships:
1946 (won)
1947 (won)
1948 (won)
1949 (won)
1950 (won)
1951 (lost)
1952 (lost)
1953 (lost)
1954 (won)
1955 (won)
7 wins 3 losses
1964 (won)
1 win 0 losses
A dynasty of 8-3 that includes 3 different decades. Inside the numbers there's a West Coast Offense that Bill Walsh would later use for his dynasty. There's an Otto Graham and a Jim Brown leading a multiplicity of players into the NFL Hall of Fame. There was absolutely no wreakage of any widespread steroid usage or HGH doctors in the house. Last but not least, there were 2 future Head Coaches named Noll and Shula waiting to put cities on the NFL map in Pittsburgh and Miami. Before the Cleveland Browns, Pittsburgh was the NFL version of Native America before Christopher Columbus showed them the meaning of "how."
- Tom F. (If be envious of the REAL thing too if I was a Steel Orphan)
Stoner has been owned. Need some more of that Cheech and Chong Tidestick Stoner?
Imagine Stoner, Piece of the Rock, Sliverdick and Superfreaky in the same room watching their beloved Stillers. Not sure what would be in more abundance, high fives or reach arounds.
-
Is it any wonder WHY Pittsburgh wanted to emulate Cleveland by going after Paul Brown's pupil Chuck Noll? And when it was time to replace Noll - didn't they grab yet another former Cleveland Brown player by the name of Bill Cowher? And what about the BEST team in the 70s that went PERFECT without steroids + a backup QB starting most of their games? Along came another former Cleveland Brown by the name of Don Shula to lead his Miami Dolphins team into 3 consecutive Superbowls (after he had Baltimore in a Superbowl or two). Imagine that!
If you go by the most Championship victories - the best QB of all time is Otto Graham. Any historian will tell you the best RB to ever suit up in the pros is Jim Brown. It is what it is.
The inconvenient truth remains: without the Cleveland Browns there still would be no such thing as the Pittsburgh Steelers.
LOL..Ok , I agree Chuck Noll came from Winning and Rooney had to think "Hey this guy is worth a Shot". But Cowher played for a Browns team that was know for Close but NO Cigar. Add to that bill Cowher was Pittsburgh Born and Bred.
Otto Graham hilarious... Couldn't start for Half the NFL Teams Today. Jim Brown was truly a one of a kind player. The Browns do indeed play a part in the Steelers legacy , especially with Noll.
Thanks for being our Coaching "University". Too bad your front office had NO IDEA what they had in Chuck Noll. Of course with out Bradshaw , Swann , Stallworth , Greene , Greenwood , Hamm , Lambert , Blount , Harris .... On and On. Chuck Noll would have never been either.
FREAKofSTEEL08 said:
Is it any wonder WHY Pittsburgh wanted to emulate Cleveland by going after Paul Brown's pupil Chuck Noll? And when it was time to replace Noll - didn't they grab yet another former Cleveland Brown player by the name of Bill Cowher? And what about the BEST team in the 70s that went PERFECT without steroids + a backup QB starting most of their games? Along came another former Cleveland Brown by the name of Don Shula to lead his Miami Dolphins team into 3 consecutive Superbowls (after he had Baltimore in a Superbowl or two). Imagine that!If you go by the most Championship victories - the best QB of all time is Otto Graham. Any historian will tell you the best RB to ever suit up in the pros is Jim Brown. It is what it is.
The inconvenient truth remains: without the Cleveland Browns there still would be no such thing as the Pittsburgh Steelers.
LOL..Ok , I agree Chuck Noll came from Winning and Rooney had to think "Hey this guy is worth a Shot". But Cowher played for a Browns team that was know for Close but NO Cigar. Add to that bill Cowher was Pittsburgh Born and Bred.
Otto Graham hilarious... Couldn't start for Half the NFL Teams Today. Jim Brown was truly a one of a kind player. The Browns do indeed play a part in the Steelers legacy , especially with Noll.
Thanks for being our Coaching "University". Too bad your front office had NO IDEA what they had in Chuck Noll. Of course with out Bradshaw , Swann , Stallworth , Greene , Greenwood , Hamm , Lambert , Blount , Harris .... On and On. Chuck Noll would have never been either.
It's funny you mention Otto Graham wouldn't make it today when there's a Brett Favre showing me he COULD! And even better, let's revisit Bradshaw's first 5 years and see how that compares with the patience NFL teams have for QBs today.
Year Tm GS QBrec Cmp Att Cmp% Yds TD Int
1970 PIT 13 8 3-5-0 83 218 38.1 1410 6 24
1971 PIT 13 5-8-0 203 373 54.4 2259 13 22
1972 PIT 14 11-3-0 147 308 47.7 1887 12 12
1973 PIT 9 8-1-0 89 180 49.4 1183 10 15
1974 PIT 7 5-2-0 67 148 45.3 785 7 8
When everyone upfront got on steroids, you had 2 average RBs rushing for over 1,000 yards apeice and all Bradshaw ever needed to be was Trent Dilfer with a strong running game, 1 or 2 acrobatic receivers, an immaculate reception and a defense alloting it's own offense a tremendous margin of error. Beating the Vikings 16-6 wasn't because Bradshaw was brilliant or lighting em up. Give it any spin you have to. Aside from that, how many of Bradshaw's old teammates and coaches remained on speaking terms with him? Graham led his team to 10 consecutive Championships from 46 to 55. I'll give you the rest of your life to find me a more successful QB playing pro football. Good luck with that!
- Tom F.
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Bradshaw couldn't spell KAT if ya spotted him the k and the E.
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Only issue with Otto was the drinking problem.
He drank way too much milk.
Graham was a stud in any generation. Go back and watch some highlights or if you're cool like me you can see full games on Classic. If you watch that and still think he can't play then you are a Stiller fan or a moron. Both of which are one in the same.
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Formerly Stone said:
You just don't get it do ya? Nobody is saying the Browns didn't win all those so-called "championships" What I'm trying to get through your thick skull is that if you are going to diminish what the Steelers have done by saying the Browns have more "championships" then you also have to be able to accept the fact that since the Browns championships were mostly won in an era when there were multiple "champions" and the helmet was barely invented you are talking apples and elephants!Who gives a rat's f**king ass about the Steelers? Whoever has tried to diminish what they have done? They won their titles, the Browns won their titles, the Rams, Bulldog, Pros all won their titles. Many of the titles of all these teams were won under varying circumstances and under varying rules. Even the Steelers titles from the 70s were won under different circumstances than the ones won recently. The game of football in the 70s was far more similar to the game of football in the 50s than it was to the game in the 2000s.
Nevertheless, they all count. No one is trying to deny anything to the Steelers. Where are coming up with that BS?
Again, the only reason you want to discount the titles won by teams of yore is because you CHOOSE to be stupid about them, and because they don't fit the ignorant propaganda you wish us to accept that the game of football only began at a point in time in which the Steelers finally started to become good at it. It don't work that way. Facts are facts. History is history.
Perhaps you would like the US to still be a British colony? Sorry, history didn't work out that way.
Perhaps you would like it if the South had won the Civil War. Sorry, history didn't work that way.
History isn't an opinion, it is a fact.
By your way of arguing, you would suggest probably that George Washington, Thomas Jefferson, Monroe, Madison, Jackson etc. etc. really weren't "True" Presidents, because, after all, the US in their day didn't have the 50 states it has now and didn't extend from sea to shining sea.
You would say that being President of the USA in the 1790s or 1800s is like comparing apples to elephants.
Sorry, but George, Tom, Jim, Andy were all still Presidents, and the Browns, Rams, Bulldog, Pros were all still champions.
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3-9 , 3-9 , The Colts and 49ers records in 1st year after the Teams entered the NFL from the AAFC. The Browns stacked squad clearly the Class of this Awesome "League".
And the Browns were a free spending team using the Fame of Paul Brown to Stack that team .
Quite an advantage , especially in an age where Football players were looking to Maximize salaries.
Black players were excluded from the NFL from 1934 to 1945.. the AACF started in 1946 .. The NFL had already started to sign and Play black players. The AAFC was NOT the NFL. They had ONE Team that was NFL Caliber. Be Proud that was you team. But thats all there is to it.
FREAKofSTEEL08 said:
3-9 , 3-9 , The Colts and 49ers records in 1st year after the Teams entered the NFL from the AAFC. The Browns stacked squad clearly the Class of this Awesome "League".And the Browns were a free spending team using the Fame of Paul Brown to Stack that team .
Quite an advantage , especially in an age where Football players were looking to Maximize salaries.
Black players were excluded from the NFL from 1934 to 1945.. the AACF started in 1946 .. The NFL had already started to sign and Play black players. The AAFC was NOT the NFL. They had ONE Team that was NFL Caliber. Be Proud that was you team. But thats all there is to it.
Hmm, maybe the NFL had 1,2,3 black players. The AAFC had numerous. What was your source about the blacks in the NFL?
I was under the impression that there weren't any blacks in the NFL until like 1948. I may be wrong. I am not disputing you, I simply would like to know it an verify it for my own information, so that I don't make errors of fact of this nature.
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Formerly Stone said:
Isn't it funny that Browns fans imagine so many things.....they can invent all kinds of things to make the Browns look good and even more things to make the Steelers look bad.Only on a forum dedicated to disillusion Steeler haters!
No, we are not dedicated to Steeler haters. None of this would even come up if you wouldn't knowingly make asshole, factually wrong statements.
No one is requiring you to patronize this board.
If you want to go to a place where they like to use propaganda techniques to try to deny history, I am sure we can find a few Neo-Nazi sites, or fundamental Islamist sites to suit you. You want to come here, you will be challenged on your crap.
If you can't handle the truth, that is not our problem.
If you don't want it to be your problem, say Sayonara, sucker.
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Is it any wonder WHY Pittsburgh wanted to emulate Cleveland by going after Paul Brown's pupil Chuck Noll? And when it was time to replace Noll - didn't they grab yet another former Cleveland Brown player by the name of Bill Cowher? And what about the BEST team in the 70s that went PERFECT without steroids + a backup QB starting most of their games? Along came another former Cleveland Brown by the name of Don Shula to lead his Miami Dolphins team into 3 consecutive Superbowls (after he had Baltimore in a Superbowl or two). Imagine that!
If you go by the most Championship victories - the best QB of all time is Otto Graham. Any historian will tell you the best RB to ever suit up in the pros is Jim Brown. It is what it is.
The inconvenient truth remains: without the Cleveland Browns there still would be no such thing as the Pittsburgh Steelers.
LOL..Ok , I agree Chuck Noll came from Winning and Rooney had to think "Hey this guy is worth a Shot". But Cowher played for a Browns team that was know for Close but NO Cigar. Add to that bill Cowher was Pittsburgh Born and Bred.
Otto Graham hilarious... Couldn't start for Half the NFL Teams Today. Jim Brown was truly a one of a kind player. The Browns do indeed play a part in the Steelers legacy , especially with Noll.
Thanks for being our Coaching "University". Too bad your front office had NO IDEA what they had in Chuck Noll. Of course with out Bradshaw , Swann , Stallworth , Greene , Greenwood , Hamm , Lambert , Blount , Harris .... On and On. Chuck Noll would have never been either.
FREAKofSTEEL08 said:
Is it any wonder WHY Pittsburgh wanted to emulate Cleveland by going after Paul Brown's pupil Chuck Noll? And when it was time to replace Noll - didn't they grab yet another former Cleveland Brown player by the name of Bill Cowher? And what about the BEST team in the 70s that went PERFECT without steroids + a backup QB starting most of their games? Along came another former Cleveland Brown by the name of Don Shula to lead his Miami Dolphins team into 3 consecutive Superbowls (after he had Baltimore in a Superbowl or two). Imagine that!If you go by the most Championship victories - the best QB of all time is Otto Graham. Any historian will tell you the best RB to ever suit up in the pros is Jim Brown. It is what it is.
The inconvenient truth remains: without the Cleveland Browns there still would be no such thing as the Pittsburgh Steelers.
LOL..Ok , I agree Chuck Noll came from Winning and Rooney had to think "Hey this guy is worth a Shot". But Cowher played for a Browns team that was know for Close but NO Cigar. Add to that bill Cowher was Pittsburgh Born and Bred.
Otto Graham hilarious... Couldn't start for Half the NFL Teams Today. Jim Brown was truly a one of a kind player. The Browns do indeed play a part in the Steelers legacy , especially with Noll.
Thanks for being our Coaching "University". Too bad your front office had NO IDEA what they had in Chuck Noll. Of course with out Bradshaw , Swann , Stallworth , Greene , Greenwood , Hamm , Lambert , Blount , Harris .... On and On. Chuck Noll would have never been either.
Your argument that Otto Graham could not start for half the NFL teams is as specious, and as wrong as if one of us would say that Bradshaw, Swann, Stallworth, Greene, Ham, Lambert, Blount, and Harris couldn't start for half the NFL teams today. It is an absurd statement, and you knew it when you said it. It was said by you purposely only to be contrary and stupid. That is why Steeler fans of your ilk get disrespected around here. Graham's stature (height, weight etc.) is similar to what Joe Montana's was (by inference you imply that Joe Montana couldn't play for half the team's in the NFL today....FYI, Otto and Joe essentially ran the same offense...the offense taught by Paul Brown to Bill Walsh). It is also similar to that of Drew Brees, Kurt Warner, Brett Favre, Carson Palmer, Tony Romo etc. etc.
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Joe Montana -6'2" 205 lbs.
Fran Tarkenton- 6'0" 190 lbs.
Joe Theismann 6'0" 192 lbs
Y.A. Tittle 6'0 192 lbs.
Guess none of those guys could cut it today, either.
Y.A. Tittle 6'0 192 lbs. NO.
Fran.. Would be Flutie-like
Theisman ... I doubt would be much/ championship wise
Joe Montana would do just fine especially if he played in a system friendly to him.
All I am saying is most players from the 40`s and 50`s wouldn't be NFL Players in this day and age. If you dont understand that then you are dumb.
FREAKofSTEEL08 said:
Y.A. Tittle 6'0 192 lbs. NO.Fran.. Would be Flutie-like
Theisman ... I doubt would be much/ championship wise
Joe Montana would do just fine especially if he played in a system friendly to him.
All I am saying is most players from the 40`s and 50`s wouldn't be NFL Players in this day and age. If you dont understand that then you are dumb.
I have already documented this in other posts. Graham was as tall and weighed as much as many of the QBs playing now.
Otto was 6'1" 200. Drew Brees is 6'0" 209. Kurt Warner is 6'2" 210. Favre is 6'2" 220. I could go on. Many QBs today do tend to be a little taller than these guys, in the 6'4, 6'5 range. But that doesn't help their brain. I mean, who would you want, the 6'1 Graham or the 6'6 Jamarcus Russell?
Last time I noticed, a guy shorter than Graham was starting at QB in Sunday's Super Bowl.
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FREAKofSTEEL08 said:
LOL... In your opinion . And I dont really think your dumb. Just that you are ruled by hatred and say stuff that you wouldn't and shouldn't if not for that Bitterness. Its Fandom... I understand. But dont think I wont call you on it. You never budge. I will budge. If I am seriously wrong I listen to reason. Your Hatred wont allow you to do this. Thats my opinion. And i know you dont care... But thats it.I'm more than willing to budge when I realize I'm in the wrong. But I'm hardly ever in the wrong. That's not my ego speaking, that's logic. When there's a conversation going on, and I don't know anything about it, I stay out of it. It prevents embarassment on my part. I only speak my mind when I am 100% sure I know what I am talking about.
As for this argument. I'm not wrong, and neither are you. It's two different ways of looking at something. You're right, the NFL doesn't acknowledge our AAFC titles. But, I'm also right when I say that the Pro Football Hall of Fame does. It's just two different viewpoints. We have won 8 League Titles, it's just that half of them were in another league. Do we have more league titles than the Steelers? Yes. Do we have more NFL titles than the Steelers? Well, no.
It's the same with politics. "You're wrong because you're a Republican, I'm right because I'm a Democrat." It doesn't work that way. It's more like "You have some good ideas, I have some good ideas. Whoever has the most fans, wins." Sadly, that's the case.
I'm more than willing to budge when I realize I'm in the wrong. But I'm hardly ever in the wrong. That's not my ego speaking, that's logic. When there's a conversation going on, and I don't know anything about it, I stay out of it. It prevents embarassment on my part. I only speak my mind when I am 100% sure I know what I am talking about.
As for this argument. I'm not wrong, and neither are you. It's two different ways of looking at something. You're right, the NFL doesn't acknowledge our AAFC titles. But, I'm also right when I say that the Pro Football Hall of Fame does. It's just two different viewpoints. We have won 8 League Titles, it's just that half of them were in another league. Do we have more league titles than the Steelers? Yes. Do we have more NFL titles than the Steelers? Well, no.
It's the same with politics. "You're wrong because you're a Republican, I'm right because I'm a Democrat." It doesn't work that way. It's more like "You have some good ideas, I have some good ideas. Whoever has the most fans, wins." Sadly, that's the case.
You have to understand WHY it is that the NFL won't recognize AAFC titles. At least, originally why. I have documented this before, but Steeler fans apparently cannot retain information in their brains, so I guess I have to do it again.
The NFL didn't choose to recognize the AAFC because of the personal jealousy and spite of one Mr. Bert Bell.
Bert Bell was during the late 40s/early 50s both the Commissioner of the NFL AND the owner of the Philadelphia Eagles. After the first couple of years of the existance of the AAFC, a number of people proposed that a playoff game between the Champions of the NFL and the AAFC be played. They wanted to call it the "World Series of Football" (the "Super Bowl" of that era). There were plans in the works to have this game played after the 1948 season. You know what happened in 1948? The Browns went undefeated and untied, and the Eagles won the NFL title. Well, you can imagine the results that would have occurred if the Browns and Eagles had indeed played that game. Bert Bell could also imagine the result as well. The veneer of superiority that Bell and the NFL claimed over the AAFC would have been rudely shattered, and Bell refused to allow the game to occur. Sure, in essence, he chickened out. And as Commissioner and owner he naturally had the authority to allow his cowardice to takes precedence. The same thing happened in 1949 when both the Browns and the Eagles won their respective leagues. Of course we know that the NFL ultimately ended up being forced into merging with the AAFC (absorbing certain teams, however you want to put it), taking in the Browns and a few others. And we also know then that Bell was not going to be able to avoid the Browns. Possibly maintaining a delusion in his mind that perhaps in point of fact the NFL teams, and particularly his Eagles were superior to the Browns, he agreed to have the first game of the season played between the two defending champions from the 1949 season, thinking that perhaps his Eagles could put the Browns in their place. Of course we know what happened. The Browns rolled over the Eagles like they were cake batter and made Flat Stanley out of the Eagles. Bell's bitterness and jealousy over those events ended up with him decreeing that the NFL would not recognize the titles from the AAFC, asserting some bogus claim that "they could not find ALL the original statistical sheets from the AAFC games." Of course, this was a bogus and specious notion because even though perhaps ALL the original stat sheets may not have been found, nearly all of them were available, and of those that weren't there were copies available. The NFL has maintained this specious position as of this day, continuing to not want to embarrass the legacy of Bert Bell who is in the HOF. Nevertheless, EVERY authoritave reporting agency from the Pro Football Hall of Fame, to the Sporting News, to the Elias Sports Bureau, to pro-football-reference.com, to Wikipedia to etc. etc. etc. all recognize the AAFC titles. It is ONLY the self interested NFL that doesn't, for somewhat nefarious reasons.
Again, it is like Iran refusing to recognize the existance of Israel. Does it really mean anything? Does it mean that Israel isn't there, or that the AAFC wasn't there? No, obviously.
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Formerly Stone said:
Now there is a disillusion, bitter, post!More specifically, you HATE the truth. Aren't you the SAME guy that showed us 35 different camera angles of the football not making it to the first down marker? This is the same deal. Your best coaches were CLEVELAND BROWNS. And I see your buddies are editing the results they hate. Here's another snapshot of it all before we say checkmate Stoner!
The Browns were in 10 consecutive Pro Football Championships:
1946 (won)
1947 (won)
1948 (won)
1949 (won)
1950 (won)
1951 (lost)
1952 (lost)
1953 (lost)
1954 (won)
1955 (won)
7 wins 3 losses
1964 (won)
1 win 0 losses
A dynasty of 8-3 that includes 3 different decades. Inside the numbers there's a West Coast Offense that Bill Walsh would later use for his dynasty. There's an Otto Graham and a Jim Brown leading a multiplicity of players into the NFL Hall of Fame. There was absolutely no wreakage of any widespread steroid usage or HGH doctors in the house. Last but not least, there were 2 future Head Coaches named Noll and Shula waiting to put cities on the NFL map in Pittsburgh and Miami. Before the Cleveland Browns, Pittsburgh was the NFL version of Native America before Christopher Columbus showed them the meaning of "how."
- Tom F. (If be envious of the REAL thing too if I was a Steel Orphan)
More specifically, you HATE the truth. Aren't you the SAME guy that showed us 35 different camera angles of the football not making it to the first down marker? This is the same deal. Your best coaches were CLEVELAND BROWNS. And I see your buddies are editing the results they hate. Here's another snapshot of it all before we say checkmate Stoner!
The Browns were in 10 consecutive Pro Football Championships:
1946 (won)
1947 (won)
1948 (won)
1949 (won)
1950 (won)
1951 (lost)
1952 (lost)
1953 (lost)
1954 (won)
1955 (won)
7 wins 3 losses
1964 (won)
1 win 0 losses
A dynasty of 8-3 that includes 3 different decades. Inside the numbers there's a West Coast Offense that Bill Walsh would later use for his dynasty. There's an Otto Graham and a Jim Brown leading a multiplicity of players into the NFL Hall of Fame. There was absolutely no wreakage of any widespread steroid usage or HGH doctors in the house. Last but not least, there were 2 future Head Coaches named Noll and Shula waiting to put cities on the NFL map in Pittsburgh and Miami. Before the Cleveland Browns, Pittsburgh was the NFL version of Native America before Christopher Columbus showed them the meaning of "how."
- Tom F. (If be envious of the REAL thing too if I was a Steel Orphan)
Flugel, you omitted that the Browns appeared in but lost the 1957 NFL title game to the Lions, to make that 11 appearances in a 12 year span with a record of 7-4 in that span.
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In MMA terms I think we have a Tap Out.
Steeler asses haven't been this sore since last week at Uncle Fester's.
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Zombo said:
You are kidding, right?Graham was a phenomenal athlete, a phenomenal passer, and a phenomenal leader.
His passer rating was an amazing 86.6 back then, which is equivalent to about a 106.6 in today's offensive systems.
He was mobile, strong, good runner, great arm ... what in the WORLD are you basing this on?
Size, maybe?
Graham was 6'1 196 lbs.
Drew Brees is 6'0 209 lbs.
Any idea where Drew is playing Sunday?
Zombo
dude Dream ON. If he was as athletic as todays athletes back then He would have Ran for 1,000 a year as well as put up Monster PAssing numbers. The Overall Talent level back then was a Fraction of today.
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I'm more than willing to budge when I realize I'm in the wrong. But I'm hardly ever in the wrong. That's not my ego speaking, that's logic. When there's a conversation going on, and I don't know anything about it, I stay out of it. It prevents embarassment on my part. I only speak my mind when I am 100% sure I know what I am talking about.
As for this argument. I'm not wrong, and neither are you. It's two different ways of looking at something. You're right, the NFL doesn't acknowledge our AAFC titles. But, I'm also right when I say that the Pro Football Hall of Fame does. It's just two different viewpoints. We have won 8 League Titles, it's just that half of them were in another league. Do we have more league titles than the Steelers? Yes. Do we have more NFL titles than the Steelers? Well, no.
It's the same with politics. "You're wrong because you're a Republican, I'm right because I'm a Democrat." It doesn't work that way. It's more like "You have some good ideas, I have some good ideas. Whoever has the most fans, wins." Sadly, that's the case.
You have to understand WHY it is that the NFL won't recognize AAFC titles. At least, originally why. I have documented this before, but Steeler fans apparently cannot retain information in their brains, so I guess I have to do it again.
The NFL didn't choose to recognize the AAFC because of the personal jealousy and spite of one Mr. Bert Bell.
Bert Bell was during the late 40s/early 50s both the Commissioner of the NFL AND the owner of the Philadelphia Eagles. After the first couple of years of the existance of the AAFC, a number of people proposed that a playoff game between the Champions of the NFL and the AAFC be played. They wanted to call it the "World Series of Football" (the "Super Bowl" of that era). There were plans in the works to have this game played after the 1948 season. You know what happened in 1948? The Browns went undefeated and untied, and the Eagles won the NFL title. Well, you can imagine the results that would have occurred if the Browns and Eagles had indeed played that game. Bert Bell could also imagine the result as well. The veneer of superiority that Bell and the NFL claimed over the AAFC would have been rudely shattered, and Bell refused to allow the game to occur. Sure, in essence, he chickened out. And as Commissioner and owner he naturally had the authority to allow his cowardice to takes precedence. The same thing happened in 1949 when both the Browns and the Eagles won their respective leagues. Of course we know that the NFL ultimately ended up being forced into merging with the AAFC (absorbing certain teams, however you want to put it), taking in the Browns and a few others. And we also know then that Bell was not going to be able to avoid the Browns. Possibly maintaining a delusion in his mind that perhaps in point of fact the NFL teams, and particularly his Eagles were superior to the Browns, he agreed to have the first game of the season played between the two defending champions from the 1949 season, thinking that perhaps his Eagles could put the Browns in their place. Of course we know what happened. The Browns rolled over the Eagles like they were cake batter and made Flat Stanley out of the Eagles. Bell's bitterness and jealousy over those events ended up with him decreeing that the NFL would not recognize the titles from the AAFC, asserting some bogus claim that "they could not find ALL the original statistical sheets from the AAFC games." Of course, this was a bogus and specious notion because even though perhaps ALL the original stat sheets may not have been found, nearly all of them were available, and of those that weren't there were copies available. The NFL has maintained this specious position as of this day, continuing to not want to embarrass the legacy of Bert Bell who is in the HOF. Nevertheless, EVERY authoritave reporting agency from the Pro Football Hall of Fame, to the Sporting News, to the Elias Sports Bureau, to pro-football-reference.com, to Wikipedia to etc. etc. etc. all recognize the AAFC titles. It is ONLY the self interested NFL that doesn't, for somewhat nefarious reasons.
Again, it is like Iran refusing to recognize the existance of Israel. Does it really mean anything? Does it mean that Israel isn't there, or that the AAFC wasn't there? No, obviously.
You have to understand WHY it is that the NFL won't recognize AAFC titles. At least, originally why. I have documented this before, but Steeler fans apparently cannot retain information in their brains, so I guess I have to do it again.
The NFL didn't choose to recognize the AAFC because of the personal jealousy and spite of one Mr. Bert Bell.
Bert Bell was during the late 40s/early 50s both the Commissioner of the NFL AND the owner of the Philadelphia Eagles. After the first couple of years of the existance of the AAFC, a number of people proposed that a playoff game between the Champions of the NFL and the AAFC be played. They wanted to call it the "World Series of Football" (the "Super Bowl" of that era). There were plans in the works to have this game played after the 1948 season. You know what happened in 1948? The Browns went undefeated and untied, and the Eagles won the NFL title. Well, you can imagine the results that would have occurred if the Browns and Eagles had indeed played that game. Bert Bell could also imagine the result as well. The veneer of superiority that Bell and the NFL claimed over the AAFC would have been rudely shattered, and Bell refused to allow the game to occur. Sure, in essence, he chickened out. And as Commissioner and owner he naturally had the authority to allow his cowardice to takes precedence. The same thing happened in 1949 when both the Browns and the Eagles won their respective leagues. Of course we know that the NFL ultimately ended up being forced into merging with the AAFC (absorbing certain teams, however you want to put it), taking in the Browns and a few others. And we also know then that Bell was not going to be able to avoid the Browns. Possibly maintaining a delusion in his mind that perhaps in point of fact the NFL teams, and particularly his Eagles were superior to the Browns, he agreed to have the first game of the season played between the two defending champions from the 1949 season, thinking that perhaps his Eagles could put the Browns in their place. Of course we know what happened. The Browns rolled over the Eagles like they were cake batter and made Flat Stanley out of the Eagles. Bell's bitterness and jealousy over those events ended up with him decreeing that the NFL would not recognize the titles from the AAFC, asserting some bogus claim that "they could not find ALL the original statistical sheets from the AAFC games." Of course, this was a bogus and specious notion because even though perhaps ALL the original stat sheets may not have been found, nearly all of them were available, and of those that weren't there were copies available. The NFL has maintained this specious position as of this day, continuing to not want to embarrass the legacy of Bert Bell who is in the HOF. Nevertheless, EVERY authoritave reporting agency from the Pro Football Hall of Fame, to the Sporting News, to the Elias Sports Bureau, to pro-football-reference.com, to Wikipedia to etc. etc. etc. all recognize the AAFC titles. It is ONLY the self interested NFL that doesn't, for somewhat nefarious reasons.
Again, it is like Iran refusing to recognize the existance of Israel. Does it really mean anything? Does it mean that Israel isn't there, or that the AAFC wasn't there? No, obviously.
I knew of that reasoning. Question is after Rehashing it Several times they STILL Dont recognize them. Thats speaks volumes as to what The NFL Thinks of the AAFC. They have had decades to overturn it and have not.
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FREAKofSTEEL08 said:
3-9 , 3-9 , The Colts and 49ers records in 1st year after the Teams entered the NFL from the AAFC. The Browns stacked squad clearly the Class of this Awesome "League".And the Browns were a free spending team using the Fame of Paul Brown to Stack that team .
Quite an advantage , especially in an age where Football players were looking to Maximize salaries.
Black players were excluded from the NFL from 1934 to 1945.. the AACF started in 1946 .. The NFL had already started to sign and Play black players. The AAFC was NOT the NFL. They had ONE Team that was NFL Caliber. Be Proud that was you team. But thats all there is to it.
Hmm, maybe the NFL had 1,2,3 black players. The AAFC had numerous. What was your source about the blacks in the NFL?
I was under the impression that there weren't any blacks in the NFL until like 1948. I may be wrong. I am not disputing you, I simply would like to know it an verify it for my own information, so that I don't make errors of fact of this nature.
Hmm, maybe the NFL had 1,2,3 black players. The AAFC had numerous. What was your source about the blacks in the NFL?
I was under the impression that there weren't any blacks in the NFL until like 1948. I may be wrong. I am not disputing you, I simply would like to know it an verify it for my own information, so that I don't make errors of fact of this nature.
I tell you I looked everywhere and they Trickled in from 46 to 1950. Those a few more got jobs , Its seem that very few played AAFC either. The Browns were on the cutting edge.
1946
Kenny Washington, Halfback
Played with San Francisco Clippers (PCPFL) 1944-45. Signed a contract with the Los Angeles Rams on March 21, 1946. Played 1946-48 with the Rams.
Woody Strode, End
Signed a contract with the Los Angeles Rams May 7, 1946. Played with the Rams 1946 only. Played with Calgary Stampeders (WIFU) 1948.
Bill Willis, Guard, Middle Guard
Signed a contract with the Cleveland Browns of the All-America Football Conference on August 6, 1946. Played 1946-53 with the Browns.
Marion Motley, Fullback
Signed a contract with the Cleveland Browns of the All-America Football Conference on August 9, 1946. Played 1946-53 Cleveland Browns, 1955 Pittsburgh Steelers.
Really all I could find so Far. I seen where after The Browns signed a few African Americans some NFL Teams began to look and try out players. The percentages stayed low. But the AAFC didnt have a high number either.
AAFC would tap this talent pool more than the NFL, with 20 black players compared with the NFL’s 7 in 1949.[16] Not exactly a Tidal wave of talent. but thank God they started up .
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I'm more than willing to budge when I realize I'm in the wrong. But I'm hardly ever in the wrong. That's not my ego speaking, that's logic. When there's a conversation going on, and I don't know anything about it, I stay out of it. It prevents embarassment on my part. I only speak my mind when I am 100% sure I know what I am talking about.
As for this argument. I'm not wrong, and neither are you. It's two different ways of looking at something. You're right, the NFL doesn't acknowledge our AAFC titles. But, I'm also right when I say that the Pro Football Hall of Fame does. It's just two different viewpoints. We have won 8 League Titles, it's just that half of them were in another league. Do we have more league titles than the Steelers? Yes. Do we have more NFL titles than the Steelers? Well, no.
It's the same with politics. "You're wrong because you're a Republican, I'm right because I'm a Democrat." It doesn't work that way. It's more like "You have some good ideas, I have some good ideas. Whoever has the most fans, wins." Sadly, that's the case.
You have to understand WHY it is that the NFL won't recognize AAFC titles. At least, originally why. I have documented this before, but Steeler fans apparently cannot retain information in their brains, so I guess I have to do it again.
The NFL didn't choose to recognize the AAFC because of the personal jealousy and spite of one Mr. Bert Bell.
Bert Bell was during the late 40s/early 50s both the Commissioner of the NFL AND the owner of the Philadelphia Eagles. After the first couple of years of the existance of the AAFC, a number of people proposed that a playoff game between the Champions of the NFL and the AAFC be played. They wanted to call it the "World Series of Football" (the "Super Bowl" of that era). There were plans in the works to have this game played after the 1948 season. You know what happened in 1948? The Browns went undefeated and untied, and the Eagles won the NFL title. Well, you can imagine the results that would have occurred if the Browns and Eagles had indeed played that game. Bert Bell could also imagine the result as well. The veneer of superiority that Bell and the NFL claimed over the AAFC would have been rudely shattered, and Bell refused to allow the game to occur. Sure, in essence, he chickened out. And as Commissioner and owner he naturally had the authority to allow his cowardice to takes precedence. The same thing happened in 1949 when both the Browns and the Eagles won their respective leagues. Of course we know that the NFL ultimately ended up being forced into merging with the AAFC (absorbing certain teams, however you want to put it), taking in the Browns and a few others. And we also know then that Bell was not going to be able to avoid the Browns. Possibly maintaining a delusion in his mind that perhaps in point of fact the NFL teams, and particularly his Eagles were superior to the Browns, he agreed to have the first game of the season played between the two defending champions from the 1949 season, thinking that perhaps his Eagles could put the Browns in their place. Of course we know what happened. The Browns rolled over the Eagles like they were cake batter and made Flat Stanley out of the Eagles. Bell's bitterness and jealousy over those events ended up with him decreeing that the NFL would not recognize the titles from the AAFC, asserting some bogus claim that "they could not find ALL the original statistical sheets from the AAFC games." Of course, this was a bogus and specious notion because even though perhaps ALL the original stat sheets may not have been found, nearly all of them were available, and of those that weren't there were copies available. The NFL has maintained this specious position as of this day, continuing to not want to embarrass the legacy of Bert Bell who is in the HOF. Nevertheless, EVERY authoritave reporting agency from the Pro Football Hall of Fame, to the Sporting News, to the Elias Sports Bureau, to pro-football-reference.com, to Wikipedia to etc. etc. etc. all recognize the AAFC titles. It is ONLY the self interested NFL that doesn't, for somewhat nefarious reasons.
Again, it is like Iran refusing to recognize the existance of Israel. Does it really mean anything? Does it mean that Israel isn't there, or that the AAFC wasn't there? No, obviously.
You have to understand WHY it is that the NFL won't recognize AAFC titles. At least, originally why. I have documented this before, but Steeler fans apparently cannot retain information in their brains, so I guess I have to do it again.
The NFL didn't choose to recognize the AAFC because of the personal jealousy and spite of one Mr. Bert Bell.
Bert Bell was during the late 40s/early 50s both the Commissioner of the NFL AND the owner of the Philadelphia Eagles. After the first couple of years of the existance of the AAFC, a number of people proposed that a playoff game between the Champions of the NFL and the AAFC be played. They wanted to call it the "World Series of Football" (the "Super Bowl" of that era). There were plans in the works to have this game played after the 1948 season. You know what happened in 1948? The Browns went undefeated and untied, and the Eagles won the NFL title. Well, you can imagine the results that would have occurred if the Browns and Eagles had indeed played that game. Bert Bell could also imagine the result as well. The veneer of superiority that Bell and the NFL claimed over the AAFC would have been rudely shattered, and Bell refused to allow the game to occur. Sure, in essence, he chickened out. And as Commissioner and owner he naturally had the authority to allow his cowardice to takes precedence. The same thing happened in 1949 when both the Browns and the Eagles won their respective leagues. Of course we know that the NFL ultimately ended up being forced into merging with the AAFC (absorbing certain teams, however you want to put it), taking in the Browns and a few others. And we also know then that Bell was not going to be able to avoid the Browns. Possibly maintaining a delusion in his mind that perhaps in point of fact the NFL teams, and particularly his Eagles were superior to the Browns, he agreed to have the first game of the season played between the two defending champions from the 1949 season, thinking that perhaps his Eagles could put the Browns in their place. Of course we know what happened. The Browns rolled over the Eagles like they were cake batter and made Flat Stanley out of the Eagles. Bell's bitterness and jealousy over those events ended up with him decreeing that the NFL would not recognize the titles from the AAFC, asserting some bogus claim that "they could not find ALL the original statistical sheets from the AAFC games." Of course, this was a bogus and specious notion because even though perhaps ALL the original stat sheets may not have been found, nearly all of them were available, and of those that weren't there were copies available. The NFL has maintained this specious position as of this day, continuing to not want to embarrass the legacy of Bert Bell who is in the HOF. Nevertheless, EVERY authoritave reporting agency from the Pro Football Hall of Fame, to the Sporting News, to the Elias Sports Bureau, to pro-football-reference.com, to Wikipedia to etc. etc. etc. all recognize the AAFC titles. It is ONLY the self interested NFL that doesn't, for somewhat nefarious reasons.
Again, it is like Iran refusing to recognize the existance of Israel. Does it really mean anything? Does it mean that Israel isn't there, or that the AAFC wasn't there? No, obviously.
+1
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Zombo said:
Drew Brees is no greater athlete than Otto Graham was.Graham was just as big, jut as fast, just as much arm, just as much accuracy ... you are making a joke out of yourself.
You think is Drew Brees went back in time 55 years he would rushing for 1,000 yards and monster passing yards?
First of all 1,000 yard rushers were rare in the day ... and non-existent from a quarterback for decades to come.
Also, there were no monster passing numbers back then over the course of a season. Passing games were not as developed. Defensive backs could mug receivers all day ... hit them spear, them, hold them at the LOS ... you could take today's most athletic QB and he would not put up "monster numbers" in the 50's NFL
The linemen were a lot smaller ... but that goes for both sides of the ball. The backs and ends are a lot faster now ... but that goes for both sides of the ball.
If Otto Graham were to play today he would go up against bigger linemen, faster linebackers, and bettter coverage corners and schemes ... but he would also have bigger lineman, stronger RBs, faster receivers, more liberal passing rules and much better offensive schemes. He would be putting up numbers like the smartest, best QBS of today are.
Graham was a great athlete that also won a championship in the NBA. A 6'1 200 lb. QB is a 6'1 200 lb. QB. If he came out of the Big Ten in 2000 with Brees, instead of 1945, he would have grown up in a different era, played a faster game, etc. and he would have thrived in the NFL just like Brees.
Drew Brees and Peyton Manning are not the stars they are because they are some sort of super-human athletes that would have rushed for 1,000 yards over 50's NFL defenses ... they are smart, well-trained, instinctive athletes with great coordination and movement and lots of lots of study in their profession. Which is exactly what Otto Graham was.
Jim Brown would be great in today's NFL. Stan Musial and Hank Aaron would still knock the cover of the ball. Wilt Chamberlain would be a dominating presence. Arnold Plamer would master today's golf courses ... and Otto Graham would be just as good as another Big Ten QB that is the same size and same smarts ... Drew Brees.
Zombo
--Drew's not going to win 7 titles though....
No YOU are making a Joke of yourself. No way would Otto Graham be an elite QB if he was in his prime today. Different Game , Different time. I JUST Heard a couple players today in Fox Sports Radio talking about how the Stars of the 40s and 50s shouldn't be compared to Todays Athletes. Its Just not fair to the Guy from the bygone Era. Was Otto pressed by 300 LB guys running 4.5 40s ? Hell no his BACKS didnt run 4.5s Jim Brown is a RARE Beast like Chamberlin(In Hoops) , that would cross over well. The number is few though. You Actually believe Graham could play and be a Star today ?? I bet you think those Early Browns Teams could win a Title in this Era as well . The 70`s Steelers wouldn't Win Today either. You are hopelessly trapped in a Time Warp. I am NOT Ripping Graham , DIFFERENT Day. I wouldn't Take Bradshaw over Roethlisberger either. This day is full of Better athletes.
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Zombo said:
Just tell me why you think Drew Brees is such a better athlete than Otto Graham was.Zombo
Different age ... Todays athletes Stronger and Faster. Its a pretty well know fact. This is not breaking news.
.jpg.a1a2b9a0c33008fdaf4097d8fe2cfd64.jpg "Riffer X"){kind=avatar}
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