Who's the Best
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I can see Asomugha, but I'd take Charles Woodson over Revis any day of the week. Revis is a very talented kid, but he's behaving like a whiney little bitch right now, and whiney little bitches don't help their teams win games.
You know I agree and disagree. If he's the best corner in the NFL and I think he is why shouldn't he be paid now when he's healthy rather than later when he may get hurt. If a owner can just say "Well you aren't helping us anymore, see you later" why can't a player demand "market value" for their services? Do hold outs suck? Absolutely but a NFL players shelf life can be changed in one game. If I'm the best at my position I'm going to want to be paid accordingly. However once again this list is about who is best at their position and Revis is certainly better than Woodson.
Homotron said:
You know I agree and disagree. If he's the best corner in the NFL and I think he is why should he be paid now when he's healthy rather than later when he may get hurt. If a owner cut just say "Well you aren't helping us anymore, see you later" why can't a player demand "market value" for their services? Do hold outs suck? Absolutely but a NFL players shelf life can be changed in one game. If I'm the best at my position I'm going to want to be paid accordingly. However once again this list is about who is best at their position and Revis is certainly better than Woodson.I respectfully disagree about Revis being better than Woodson because I'm a homer. LOL!
I understand and agree with your points concerning the possibility of short careers etc, but I certainly think some of the younger players listen to their agents a bit too much.
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Other than the TD plus for Fitzgerald, very comparable between the two. And if you guys get to exclude guys like Ray Lewis because he's old, then I get to consider who's throwing the ball to the WR for this season.
In this case, Fitzgerald has Weemus the Titmouse throwing to him, and Jennings has Aaron "Fricken" Rodgers throwing to him.
Jennings hands down.
Greg Jennings 68 1113 16.4 4
Larry Fitzgerald 97 1092 11.3 13
We're talking CURRENT physical intangibles. Ray Lewis is a savvy veteran but he's no where near the same caliber athlete as Patrick Willis for example. In his prime absolutely but Lewis is no longer the best at his position. Greg Jennings also isn't the athlete that Fitz is....
Homotron said:
We're talking CURRENT physical intangibles. Ray Lewis is a savvy veteran but he's no where near the same caliber athlete as Patrick Willis for example. In his prime absolutely but Lewis is no longer the best at his position. Greg Jennings also isn't the athlete that Fitz is....You know, I got into an argument about this once before, with I think a Steelers fan. Kinda ironic I think.
How do I define "best player?" Well you obviously define it based on last years stats.
Lewis had 134 tackles, 3 sacks, 2 forced fumbles
Willis had 152 tackles, 4 sacks, 3 forced fumbles, and 3 interceptions.
Looking at the stats, Willis had a better year in 2009. However, Lewis has, year in, and year out, put up those kinds of numbers. When Willis has the kind of Career that Lewis has had, and can still do it at this high of a level in his 14th (arguably Lewis's 2nd best season to date) season, then come talk to me. Not only that, but Lewis is the field general on one of the perennially best defenses in the NFL. Willis is a really good ILB on what hasn't been that strong of a defense. Its like saying that DQJ's NFL leading tackles makes him a better ILB than Lewis.
And the "better athlete" or "measurable" argument is straight up silly. Ryan Leaf had prototypical measurables, and he sucked. Vick is the best athlete to play pro ball in a long long time, and he isn't that great at actually playing football. Sure, his athletics covers up for a lot of his lack of football savvy, moreso than most great athletes might be able to. But he's still just an athlete, not a good football player.
Bernie Kosar was a crap athlete, and for a few years in the late 80's, an exceptional QB and football player.
So how do you define best? I'm willing to let you argue for Willis, as he's a very good ILB. But to tell me I'm silly for arguing for Lewis, is, well silly.
By your argument, I could say that Moss shouldn't be on the list, yet you put him tentatively on yours.
The point being, that EVERYTHING factors into whether in any given year a football player will be good. There are literally hundreds of factors that figure into this. When a player can overcome all the factors and be good year in, and year out, then that is what defines greatness.
I'm not saying Jennings is there yet. I'm not saying that Jennings has had a better overall career that Fitzgerald.
But you don't get to have it both ways. You can't say that Lewis isn't in the running based on the past, but say Fitzgerald is.
I can say that Lewis is in, because I'm not saying it based on the past. I think the dude still has got "IT".
I think that Jennings will be the better WR in 2010, mostly due to circumstances. But that may mean the entire implosion of Fitzgerald's career, and the incredible blossoming of Jennings.
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Zombo said:
Homotron earns his ID once again...You realize Peyton Manning may just become the greatest QB of all time, right? And you've heard of Tom Brady?
Please ... Roethlisberger would get sacked trying to pick up their jocks.
Zombo
What part of Homer pick didn't you read? Should I have overreacted with Thaak picking Lawrence Vickers or Alex Mack? HOMER PICK! HOMER PICK! HOMER PICK! did you read it that time? I gave you 4 opportunities. However I'd rather have Big Ben than any of the QB's listed above. Peyton Manning finally won his super bowl but he was a choke artist up until that point. Tom Brady is a cry baby lady. We'll also see when the dust settles who stands where in the final rank order. Big Ben is a good bit younger than both and already has two Super Bowls. He's certainly a elite QB in this league. ONCE AGAIN HOMER PICK! that's 5 times.
Homotron said:
What part of Homer pick didn't you read? Should I have overreacted with Thaak picking Lawrence Vickers or Alex Mack? HOMER PICK! HOMER PICK! HOMER PICK! did you read it that time? I gave you 4 opportunities. However I'd rather have Big Ben than any of the QB's listed above. Peyton Manning finally won his super bowl but he was a choke artist up until that point. Tom Brady is a cry baby lady. We'll also see when the dust settles who stands where in the final rank order. Big Ben is a good bit younger than both and already has two Super Bowls. He's certainly a elite QB in this league. ONCE AGAIN HOMER PICK! that's 5 times.If you don't think Vickers is at the very least in the argument for best FB in the game, then you are making a decision based off bias against the Browns. Yes, Alex Mack was my homer pick, because when it comes to non-skill players, I don't really pay that close attention to the names of the players in the entire league.
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I dont think there is currently a better blocking fullback in the game than Vickers. Id also put Joe Thomas and Cribbs on the team. Right now Brees and Brady are the best QB's in the game. I'll disagree with Manning though. No quarterback who is so excellent in the regular season is such a choker in the playoffs. This guy does it every year! The one year they won the superbowl he had terrible numbers in the playoffs. They won that one because of Dungy's defense. Every other year he either has a terrible game or heaves an interception in clutch moment.
Manning is simply not clutch. Not in the same playoff league with Montana, Elway, Brady, Staubach etc.
Ive also got Patrick Willis as the best MLB in the game right now. Vilma a close second.
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Zombo said:
I've already explained Maning and Brady.
Brees, Favre and Warner go without saying.
Rodgers is better all round, emerging superstar.
Romo has ratings in the 90's four straight years and gets sacked half as much as Ben.
Schaub, like Rogers, is rocketing past Ben, 4770 yards last year, his third as a starter.
Rivers has a career rating of 95.8 and has never gotten sacked more than 27 times in one season
The other three guys, Ben rivals in talent, but like I said, they didn't let their team down by missing the first month.
And I forgot McNabb who has been doing it year in and year out for much longer than Ben.
So that's what ... 13 guys I'd rather see at quarterback than ben? I'm dead serious.
Zombo
Not even worth arguing. You'd lose any self respecting football fan outside of Cleveland the second you mention Schaub, Romo or Rivers ahead of Ben. Romo is a serial choker, Rivers routinely does the same and Schaub's Texans for the first time made the playoffs this past season. Warner has won his super bowls but he's not half the athlete and he was outplayed in the Cards/Steelers Super Bowl. I could go all day with this but in the end I'd just be wasting my time. Big Ben will have several Super Bowls before he retires and the Rooneys had a hand in his suspension otherwise I don't believe he would have been suspended at all. FIrst time in NFL history a player has been suspended without a conviction and even then the 4 games is pretty damn harsh. The Rooney's wanted him suspended and in the end I believe it will save his career. I hope you enjoy getting thrown all over.
Homotron said:
Not even worth arguing. You'd lose any self respecting football fan outside of Cleveland the second you mention Schaub, Romo or Rivers ahead of Ben. Romo is a serial choker, Rivers routinely does the same and Schaub's Texans for the first time made the playoffs this past season. Warner has won his super bowls but he's not half the athlete and he was outplayed in the Cards/Steelers Super Bowl. I could go all day with this but in the end I'd just be wasting my time. Big Ben will have several Super Bowls before he retires and the Rooneys had a hand in his suspension otherwise I don't believe he would have been suspended at all. FIrst time in NFL history a player has been suspended without a conviction and even then the 4 games is pretty damn harsh. The Rooney's wanted him suspended and in the end I believe it will save his career. I hope you enjoy getting thrown all over.Wow this is a first! I am agreeing with Homotron here and disagreeing with Zombo. I can't believe it!!!!
Romo does not belong in a list ahead of Ben. But I do agree with the rest of the list. Ben is a big time jerk! I mean like world class and has been for a long time. I live near Oxford and have heard it over and over again from people that he went to college with. BUT with the game on the line he just flat gets it done! PERIOD. I mean really we have all seen it first hand many times. I won't let my dislike for him cloud my judgement on this one.
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What was Pac Man Jones convicted of?????????????????????????????????????????????????
T.Dawg
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What was Pac Man Jones convicted of?????????????????????????????????????????????????
T.Dawg
What was Pac Man Jones convicted of?????????????????????????????????????????????????
T.Dawg
Are you Retarded? Pac Man Jones was a damn nightmare off the field for 2 years. He was involved in several incidents that directly went against the leagues personal conduct policies and it didn't let up. He was in the news every other day and moved from multiple teams. I can't believe you even tried to compare the two. Pac Man Jones surrounded himself with a criminal element and participated on several occasions. I shouldn't have posed the first question because at this point it's obvious.
R. Dawg
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QB: Peyton Manning
RB: Adrian Peterson
FB: Lawrence Vickers
TE: Brent Celek
WR1: Andre Johnson
WR2: Randy Moss
LT: Joe Thomas
LG: Alan Faneca
Nick MangoldRG: Robert Gallery
RT: D'Brickashaw Ferguson
DT/NG 1: Sean Rogers
DT/NG 2: Albert Haynesworth
DE1: Robert Mathis
DE2: Jared Allen
OLB1: Brian Cushing
OLB2: Elvis Dumervil
MLB1: Ray Lewis
MLB2: Patrick Willis
CB1: Darelle Revis
CB2: Champ Bailey
FS: Antoine Bethea
SS: Troy Polamalu
K: Phil Dawson/David Akers
P: Dave Zastudil (IR)
LS: Ryan Pontbriand
KR: Josh Cribbs
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I can't believe the Madden site didn't rate Mack among the top 8 centers in the league. Hopefully that will change with Madden 12!
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TOP 5 QUARTERBACKS NOW PLAYING:
1. phillip rivers toughest s.o.b. besides big ben (sorry guys)
2. drew brees
3. peyton manning (IS one of the biggest chokers college/nfl and horse face #2 next to elway) hit him and he's done
4. aaron rodgers
5. ben roethlisberger can't argue with the titles
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QB: Peyton Manning statistically (Personal favorite is Matt Schaub)
RB: Chris Johnson is fastest, Michael Turner is most powerful, AP is best all around
FB: Lawrence Vickers, best run blocking fullback in NFL easily
TE: Jason Witten
WR1: Andre Johnson
WR2: Wes Welker (Roddy White is very underrated)
LT: Joe Thomas
LG: Steve Huchinson
Nick MangoldRG: Jahri Evans
RT: Jared Gaither
DT/NG 1: Kevin Williams
DT/NG 2: Kris Jenkins
DE1: Jared Allen
DE2: Trent Cole (one of the most underrated players in the NFL)
OLB1: Elvis Dumervil
OLB2: Lamar Woodley
MLB1: Patrick Willis (future hall of famer)
MLB2: Jon Beason
CB1: Charles Woodson (28 interceptions in the past 4 years, revis would need 14 int's this upcoming season to equal woodson over a 4 year stretch)
CB2: Champ Bailey (the best of the past 11 years)
FS: Ed Reed (If he is healthy)...eric berry will be the best in a couple of years
SS: Adrian Wilson
K: Stephen Gostkowski
P: Shane Lechler
LS: Ryan Pontbriand
KR: Josh Cribbs
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Zombo said:
I've already explained Maning and Brady.
Brees, Favre and Warner go without saying.
Rodgers is better all round, emerging superstar.
Romo has ratings in the 90's four straight years and gets sacked half as much as Ben.
Schaub, like Rogers, is rocketing past Ben, 4770 yards last year, his third as a starter.
Rivers has a career rating of 95.8 and has never gotten sacked more than 27 times in one season
The other three guys, Ben rivals in talent, but like I said, they didn't let their team down by missing the first month.
And I forgot McNabb who has been doing it year in and year out for much longer than Ben.
So that's what ... 13 guys I'd rather see at quarterback than ben? I'm dead serious.
Zombo
Not even worth arguing. You'd lose any self respecting football fan outside of Cleveland the second you mention Schaub, Romo or Rivers ahead of Ben. Romo is a serial choker, Rivers routinely does the same and Schaub's Texans for the first time made the playoffs this past season. Warner has won his super bowls but he's not half the athlete and he was outplayed in the Cards/Steelers Super Bowl. I could go all day with this but in the end I'd just be wasting my time. Big Ben will have several Super Bowls before he retires and the Rooneys had a hand in his suspension otherwise I don't believe he would have been suspended at all. FIrst time in NFL history a player has been suspended without a conviction and even then the 4 games is pretty damn harsh. The Rooney's wanted him suspended and in the end I believe it will save his career. I hope you enjoy getting thrown all over.
Homotron said:
and the Rooneys had a hand in his suspension otherwise I don't believe he would have been suspended at all.Horse shit. If the Rooneys wanted him suspended then they could have done it themselves.
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You come on this board with the attitude that you know everything, that you're above everyone else...
However your statement that Gay Ben was the only athelete suspended without being convicted of a crime is freakin wrong...
Pac Man Jones was justifibly suspended BUT you freakin idiot, he was never convicted of a crime that warrented his suspension..... Arrested yes, convicted no.....................
I'm not supporting, defending or even saying anything positive about Pac Man, I'm just ONCE AGAIN showing that you're an ignorant homer who made a false statement once again defending your home town hero...... You're a joke.... Why dont you hook up Ben with your sister or mother???
T.Dawg
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Top 5, not. (Brady, Manning, Brees, Rodgers, McNabb) Top 10, probably
Rodgers so far has done nothing and McNabb? Why do people routinely put him in the top 5. What has he done lately? I would put Rodgers in the top 5 but McNabb certainly no longer belongs in that group.
Homotron said:
Rodgers so far has done nothing and McNabb? Why do people routinely put him in the top 5. What has he done lately? I would put Rodgers in the top 5 but McNabb certainly no longer belongs in that group.OK, maybe so on McNabb. But just because he may be taken out doesn't mean BR gets put in. In fact that link I gave to Madden's analysis of the best put the following as the best QBs in the league:
Brees
P. Manning
Brady
Rodgers
Rivers
Favre
Romo
Schaub
So, maybe you better log on there and argue with John Madden.
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Zombo said:
I've already explained Maning and Brady.
Brees, Favre and Warner go without saying.
Rodgers is better all round, emerging superstar.
Romo has ratings in the 90's four straight years and gets sacked half as much as Ben.
Schaub, like Rogers, is rocketing past Ben, 4770 yards last year, his third as a starter.
Rivers has a career rating of 95.8 and has never gotten sacked more than 27 times in one season
The other three guys, Ben rivals in talent, but like I said, they didn't let their team down by missing the first month.
And I forgot McNabb who has been doing it year in and year out for much longer than Ben.
So that's what ... 13 guys I'd rather see at quarterback than ben? I'm dead serious.
Zombo
Not even worth arguing. You'd lose any self respecting football fan outside of Cleveland the second you mention Schaub, Romo or Rivers ahead of Ben. Romo is a serial choker, Rivers routinely does the same and Schaub's Texans for the first time made the playoffs this past season. Warner has won his super bowls but he's not half the athlete and he was outplayed in the Cards/Steelers Super Bowl. I could go all day with this but in the end I'd just be wasting my time. Big Ben will have several Super Bowls before he retires and the Rooneys had a hand in his suspension otherwise I don't believe he would have been suspended at all. FIrst time in NFL history a player has been suspended without a conviction and even then the 4 games is pretty damn harsh. The Rooney's wanted him suspended and in the end I believe it will save his career. I hope you enjoy getting thrown all over.
Homotron said:
Not even worth arguing. You'd lose any self respecting football fan outside of Cleveland the second you mention Schaub, Romo or Rivers ahead of Ben.I repeat. John Madden had them all ahead of him. To my knowledge, Madden does not live in Cleveland.
Romo is a serial choker, Rivers routinely does the same and Schaub's Texans for the first time made the playoffs this past season. Warner has won his super bowls but he's not half the athlete and he was outplayed in the Cards/Steelers Super Bowl. I could go all day with this but in the end I'd just be wasting my time. Big Ben will have several Super Bowls before he retires
He will have the two that he has, and that's it. (
and the Rooneys had a hand in his suspension otherwise I don't believe he would have been suspended at all. FIrst time in NFL history a player has been suspended without a conviction and even then the 4 games is pretty damn harsh. The Rooney's wanted him suspended and in the end I believe it will save his career. I hope you enjoy getting thrown all over.
And what does any of this have to do with him as a QB? The question I posed had nothing to do with that.
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Other than the TD plus for Fitzgerald, very comparable between the two. And if you guys get to exclude guys like Ray Lewis because he's old, then I get to consider who's throwing the ball to the WR for this season.
In this case, Fitzgerald has Weemus the Titmouse throwing to him, and Jennings has Aaron "Fricken" Rodgers throwing to him.
Jennings hands down.
Greg Jennings 68 1113 16.4 4
Larry Fitzgerald 97 1092 11.3 13
We're talking CURRENT physical intangibles. Ray Lewis is a savvy veteran but he's no where near the same caliber athlete as Patrick Willis for example. In his prime absolutely but Lewis is no longer the best at his position. Greg Jennings also isn't the athlete that Fitz is....
Homotron said:
We're talking CURRENT physical intangibles. Ray Lewis is a savvy veteran but he's no where near the same caliber athlete as Patrick Willis for example. In his prime absolutely but Lewis is no longer the best at his position. Greg Jennings also isn't the athlete that Fitz is....I have not seen many 49er games since Willis has been there so I don't have much to go on, but what I have been reading says that indeed Willis is the bees knees of current middle linebackers in the NFL.
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I can see Asomugha, but I'd take Charles Woodson over Revis any day of the week. Revis is a very talented kid, but he's behaving like a whiney little bitch right now, and whiney little bitches don't help their teams win games.
I can see Asomugha, but I'd take Charles Woodson over Revis any day of the week. Revis is a very talented kid, but he's behaving like a whiney little bitch right now, and whiney little bitches don't help their teams win games.
I would take Antoine Winfield over Charles Woodson any day of the week at cornerback.
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Homotron said:
What part of Homer pick didn't you read? Should I have overreacted with Thaak picking Lawrence Vickers or Alex Mack? HOMER PICK! HOMER PICK! HOMER PICK! did you read it that time? I gave you 4 opportunities. However I'd rather have Big Ben than any of the QB's listed above. Peyton Manning finally won his super bowl but he was a choke artist up until that point. Tom Brady is a cry baby lady. We'll also see when the dust settles who stands where in the final rank order. Big Ben is a good bit younger than both and already has two Super Bowls. He's certainly a elite QB in this league. ONCE AGAIN HOMER PICK! that's 5 times.If you don't think Vickers is at the very least in the argument for best FB in the game, then you are making a decision based off bias against the Browns. Yes, Alex Mack was my homer pick, because when it comes to non-skill players, I don't really pay that close attention to the names of the players in the entire league.
If you don't think Vickers is at the very least in the argument for best FB in the game, then you are making a decision based off bias against the Browns. Yes, Alex Mack was my homer pick, because when it comes to non-skill players, I don't really pay that close attention to the names of the players in the entire league.
The Madden list had Lousak Polite, Tony Richardson, L. Weaver, and L. McClain ahead of Vickers as a fullback.
I guess perhaps I don't know my fullbacks all that well.....but, if these guys are all better than Vickers, then they must be some kind of beasts.
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Related Topic:
http://thebrownsboard.com/forums/index.php?showtopic=15476
Regarding SCOUTS INC's list of the Top 200 best overall players in the NFL
(not to shamelessly promote my topic... but very relateable to this one)
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You come on this board with the attitude that you know everything, that you're above everyone else...
However your statement that Gay Ben was the only athelete suspended without being convicted of a crime is freakin wrong...
Pac Man Jones was justifibly suspended BUT you freakin idiot, he was never convicted of a crime that warrented his suspension..... Arrested yes, convicted no.....................
I'm not supporting, defending or even saying anything positive about Pac Man, I'm just ONCE AGAIN showing that you're an ignorant homer who made a false statement once again defending your home town hero...... You're a joke.... Why dont you hook up Ben with your sister or mother???
T.Dawg
You come on this board with the attitude that you know everything, that you're above everyone else...
However your statement that Gay Ben was the only athelete suspended without being convicted of a crime is freakin wrong...
Pac Man Jones was justifibly suspended BUT you freakin idiot, he was never convicted of a crime that warrented his suspension..... Arrested yes, convicted no.....................
I'm not supporting, defending or even saying anything positive about Pac Man, I'm just ONCE AGAIN showing that you're an ignorant homer who made a false statement once again defending your home town hero...... You're a joke.... Why dont you hook up Ben with your sister or mother???
I am not sure he would want to share him with his sister or mother.
But, I will say this: I would agree that I personally would rate BR higher than Romo or Schaub and disagree with Madden on that point.
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