Wouldn't Gruden be an upgrade?
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First off, I think any Browns fan that expects a superbowl appearance this year are hopeful-yet-naive in that regard. This team is headed in the right direction, but there are still many pieces missing.
I like the offense, I'm a firm believer that Colt will develop into a good QB (jury is still out as to whether or not he'll be 'great'), I like the offensive line, and Peyton Hillis has a lot of potential; However, this team is missing that explosive runningback that can catch on a whim, and change the pace to confuse the run D. I think someone like Reggie Bush would be perfect this offseason to complement Peyton Hillis in the backfield.
We're also missing a dynamic linebacker and a safety. And lest we forget, a true #1 receiver. AJ Green would be prefect, kind of like how Crabtree can catch just about anything. He'll definitely open things up for Massi and Cribs in the inside.
We need to fill those gaping holes on our team before changing the scheme and make of this team. We'll see how the draft and free agency goes.
With that said, Gruden would be PERFECT for this Browns team. He's got a great relationship with Holmgren, he knows the in-and-outs of the game, he believes in Colt McCoy, and most of all, he LOVES Cleveland as he grew up a Browns fan which is IMO an important variable to any equation.
Oh, and just a note, the Cowboys aren't necessarily targeting Gruden as he's 4th on their list right now (according to Shefter), Cowher is #1 on Charger's list, and i'm pretty sure Cleveland would beat out Buffalo if it were in a two-horse race for Gruden.
First off, I think any Browns fan that expects a superbowl appearance this year are hopeful-yet-naive in that regard. This team is headed in the right direction, but there are still many pieces missing.
I like the offense, I'm a firm believer that Colt will develop into a good QB (jury is still out as to whether or not he'll be 'great'), I like the offensive line, and Peyton Hillis has a lot of potential; However, this team is missing that explosive runningback that can catch on a whim, and change the pace to confuse the run D. I think someone like Reggie Bush would be perfect this offseason to complement Peyton Hillis in the backfield.
We're also missing a dynamic linebacker and a safety. And lest we forget, a true #1 receiver. AJ Green would be prefect, kind of like how Crabtree can catch just about anything. He'll definitely open things up for Massi and Cribs in the inside.
We need to fill those gaping holes on our team before changing the scheme and make of this team. We'll see how the draft and free agency goes.
With that said, Gruden would be PERFECT for this Browns team. He's got a great relationship with Holmgren, he knows the in-and-outs of the game, he believes in Colt McCoy, and most of all, he LOVES Cleveland as he grew up a Browns fan which is IMO an important variable to any equation.
Oh, and just a note, the Cowboys aren't necessarily targeting Gruden as he's 4th on their list right now (according to Shefter), Cowher is #1 on Charger's list, and i'm pretty sure Cleveland would beat out Buffalo if it were in a two-horse race for Gruden.
I think you misunderstood the "Super Bowl's not happening this season" remark - I'm not saying Magnini shoudl be tossed because he didn't bring a Lombardi this season - I'm saying that if you're going to change and upgrade a position, sooner is better than later.
In this case that position is Head Coach - and if Holmgren thinks Gruden is an upgrade over Mangini - like a lot of people seem to agree with - it makes sense to do it sooner than later for a lot of reasons... #1 Gruden will be in demand - hang the "Help Wanted" sign here before other teams do so and see if you can lock him up
Gruden's not likely to come in immediately (though some think that he's unwelcome in competitng locker rooms already because many have him pegged joining up with Holmgren here... and if he can't do his broadcasting job well he might as well get a head start here...) - but at least it gives us an advtanage in negotiations if Holmgren indeed wants him.
The team's not perfect - lots of missing pieces - and a big question mark at QB (they'll be lucky if McCoy's a keeper - we've seen a lot of backup players show flashes of brilliance and then get cut or traded in the past... I blame Holmgren, not Mangini, for not doing a better job QB shopping this offseason) - but if you have a chance to upgrade you DO IT in my book - and I think Gruden's a big upgrade over Mangini and Daboll - and the time to make the change is with 1 win at the bye - not after 3-4 wins after the season when every other team is thinking about dumping their head coach and competing for Gruden.
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First off, I think any Browns fan that expects a superbowl appearance this year are hopeful-yet-naive in that regard. This team is headed in the right direction, but there are still many pieces missing.
I like the offense, I'm a firm believer that Colt will develop into a good QB (jury is still out as to whether or not he'll be 'great'), I like the offensive line, and Peyton Hillis has a lot of potential; However, this team is missing that explosive runningback that can catch on a whim, and change the pace to confuse the run D. I think someone like Reggie Bush would be perfect this offseason to complement Peyton Hillis in the backfield.
We're also missing a dynamic linebacker and a safety. And lest we forget, a true #1 receiver. AJ Green would be prefect, kind of like how Crabtree can catch just about anything. He'll definitely open things up for Massi and Cribs in the inside.
We need to fill those gaping holes on our team before changing the scheme and make of this team. We'll see how the draft and free agency goes.
With that said, Gruden would be PERFECT for this Browns team. He's got a great relationship with Holmgren, he knows the in-and-outs of the game, he believes in Colt McCoy, and most of all, he LOVES Cleveland as he grew up a Browns fan which is IMO an important variable to any equation.
Oh, and just a note, the Cowboys aren't necessarily targeting Gruden as he's 4th on their list right now (according to Shefter), Cowher is #1 on Charger's list, and i'm pretty sure Cleveland would beat out Buffalo if it were in a two-horse race for Gruden.
I think you misunderstood the "Super Bowl's not happening this season" remark - I'm not saying Magnini shoudl be tossed because he didn't bring a Lombardi this season - I'm saying that if you're going to change and upgrade a position, sooner is better than later.
In this case that position is Head Coach - and if Holmgren thinks Gruden is an upgrade over Mangini - like a lot of people seem to agree with - it makes sense to do it sooner than later for a lot of reasons... #1 Gruden will be in demand - hang the "Help Wanted" sign here before other teams do so and see if you can lock him up
Gruden's not likely to come in immediately (though some think that he's unwelcome in competitng locker rooms already because many have him pegged joining up with Holmgren here... and if he can't do his broadcasting job well he might as well get a head start here...) - but at least it gives us an advtanage in negotiations if Holmgren indeed wants him.
The team's not perfect - lots of missing pieces - and a big question mark at QB (they'll be lucky if McCoy's a keeper - we've seen a lot of backup players show flashes of brilliance and then get cut or traded in the past... I blame Holmgren, not Mangini, for not doing a better job QB shopping this offseason) - but if you have a chance to upgrade you DO IT in my book - and I think Gruden's a big upgrade over Mangini and Daboll - and the time to make the change is with 1 win at the bye - not after 3-4 wins after the season when every other team is thinking about dumping their head coach and competing for Gruden.
I think you misunderstood the "Super Bowl's not happening this season" remark - I'm not saying Magnini shoudl be tossed because he didn't bring a Lombardi this season - I'm saying that if you're going to change and upgrade a position, sooner is better than later.
In this case that position is Head Coach - and if Holmgren thinks Gruden is an upgrade over Mangini - like a lot of people seem to agree with - it makes sense to do it sooner than later for a lot of reasons... #1 Gruden will be in demand - hang the "Help Wanted" sign here before other teams do so and see if you can lock him up
Gruden's not likely to come in immediately (though some think that he's unwelcome in competitng locker rooms already because many have him pegged joining up with Holmgren here... and if he can't do his broadcasting job well he might as well get a head start here...) - but at least it gives us an advtanage in negotiations if Holmgren indeed wants him.
The team's not perfect - lots of missing pieces - and a big question mark at QB (they'll be lucky if McCoy's a keeper - we've seen a lot of backup players show flashes of brilliance and then get cut or traded in the past... I blame Holmgren, not Mangini, for not doing a better job QB shopping this offseason) - but if you have a chance to upgrade you DO IT in my book - and I think Gruden's a big upgrade over Mangini and Daboll - and the time to make the change is with 1 win at the bye - not after 3-4 wins after the season when every other team is thinking about dumping their head coach and competing for Gruden.
I didn't mean you specifically with the superbowl comment, just some of the fans on this board that believe this team has the pieces in achieving that goal. They're clearly not.
And it's not really fair to assess Colt at this point. In my opinion, this team has much more glaring holes than QB at this point. WR, Linebacker, and Safety come to mind. I'd like to give Colt the rest of the season, see how he performs in relation to the talent level of this team and go from there. Moreso than just saying 'Colt isn't the answer', this team is awry with it's ability to develop QB, rather than finding them. Honestly, unless we somehow get Andrew Luck, we really shouldn't give up on Colt McCoy.
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Mangini will not be fired before we play the Jets....if at all. Jon Gruden is owed millions of dollars from the Bucs at least though 2011 and he's perfectly happy NOT coaching from what I understand.
So we want to bring in Gruden, blow up the 3-4 and spend 3 more years "re-tooling" this team?
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Mangini will not be fired before we play the Jets....if at all. Jon Gruden is owed millions of dollars from the Bucs at least though 2011 and he's perfectly happy NOT coaching from what I understand.
So we want to bring in Gruden, blow up the 3-4 and spend 3 more years "re-tooling" this team?
Mangini will not be fired before we play the Jets....if at all. Jon Gruden is owed millions of dollars from the Bucs at least though 2011 and he's perfectly happy NOT coaching from what I understand.
So we want to bring in Gruden, blow up the 3-4 and spend 3 more years "re-tooling" this team?
Not saying I disagree with you, because I think we shouldn't change coaches this year as well, but a coaching change doesn't mean we're re-tooling. I never understood that concept: we've got the same guys, add in more dynamic players, and suddenly we're taking a step back? If anything a change from Mangini to Gruden would enhance this team offensively, not regress it.
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Mangini will not be fired before we play the Jets....if at all. Jon Gruden is owed millions of dollars from the Bucs at least though 2011 and he's perfectly happy NOT coaching from what I understand.
So we want to bring in Gruden, blow up the 3-4 and spend 3 more years "re-tooling" this team?
Mangini will not be fired before we play the Jets....if at all. Jon Gruden is owed millions of dollars from the Bucs at least though 2011 and he's perfectly happy NOT coaching from what I understand.
So we want to bring in Gruden, blow up the 3-4 and spend 3 more years "re-tooling" this team?
I don't think it's all that onerous to switch defensive schemes - many of the exiting players in a 3-4 can still play in a 4-3 - and we all know they're not even "complete" right now in the 3-4... there's also a TON of teams playing the 3-4.. that waters down the available personnel and increases demand for quality 3-4 players... getting better players and going with a 4-3 might be a good move overall (I know when it comes to competition for 3-4 players I'm guessing Mangini and the Browns aren't the biggest draw... but playing for Gruden might be a draw for better free agents.)
So its a question of rebuilding around the 3-4 or the rebuilding around the 4-3...
If that's the best argument Mangini or his supporters can make for keeping him around, it's a pretty lame one and I don't think Holmgren would let that stop him from making an upgrade.
It's really just a question of whether Holmgren thinks Gruden would be an upgrade over what could very well be a 1-6 team at the bye... Holmgren, most media talking heads - and an awful lot of fans - would feel he's justified in making a change at the bye in that situation.
If it doesn't happen then but Holmgren is seriously considering a change, he may already know that this team could be 1-14 going into Week 17... and if Mangini should be able to pull a rabit out of his hat and get a win against the Steelers, the massive outpouring of support to keep Mangini and his 2-15 season record for another go round will be pretty significant.
A lot of fans can't quite seem to see the forest through the trees - without his one win against the Steelers last year and the fan support that it brought, I think Gruden might be the head coach as we speak - and I think that would have been a good thing. (I guess for the Browns, sometimes even when we win, we lose! We kept Mangini, and lost out at a shot to grab Bradford or Suh!)
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Mangini will not be fired before we play the Jets....if at all. Jon Gruden is owed millions of dollars from the Bucs at least though 2011 and he's perfectly happy NOT coaching from what I understand.
So we want to bring in Gruden, blow up the 3-4 and spend 3 more years "re-tooling" this team?
I don't think it's all that onerous to switch defensive schemes - many of the exiting players in a 3-4 can still play in a 4-3 - and we all know they're not even "complete" right now in the 3-4... there's also a TON of teams playing the 3-4.. that waters down the available personnel and increases demand for quality 3-4 players... getting better players and going with a 4-3 might be a good move overall (I know when it comes to competition for 3-4 players I'm guessing Mangini and the Browns aren't the biggest draw... but playing for Gruden might be a draw for better free agents.)
So its a question of rebuilding around the 3-4 or the rebuilding around the 4-3...
If that's the best argument Mangini or his supporters can make for keeping him around, it's a pretty lame one and I don't think Holmgren would let that stop him from making an upgrade.
It's really just a question of whether Holmgren thinks Gruden would be an upgrade over what could very well be a 1-6 team at the bye... Holmgren, most media talking heads - and an awful lot of fans - would feel he's justified in making a change at the bye in that situation.
If it doesn't happen then but Holmgren is seriously considering a change, he may already know that this team could be 1-14 going into Week 17... and if Mangini should be able to pull a rabit out of his hat and get a win against the Steelers, the massive outpouring of support to keep Mangini and his 2-15 season record for another go round will be pretty significant.
A lot of fans can't quite seem to see the forest through the trees - without his one win against the Steelers last year and the fan support that it brought, I think Gruden might be the head coach as we speak - and I think that would have been a good thing. (I guess for the Browns, sometimes even when we win, we lose! We kept Mangini, and lost out at a shot to grab Bradford or Suh!)
I don't think it's all that onerous to switch defensive schemes - many of the exiting players in a 3-4 can still play in a 4-3 - and we all know they're not even "complete" right now in the 3-4
So its a question of rebuilding around the 3-4 or the rebuilding around the 4-3...
If that's the best argument Mangini or his supporters can make for keeping him around, it's a pretty lame one and I don't think Holmgren would let that stop him from making an upgrade.
It's really just a question of whether Holmgren thinks Gruden would be an upgrade over what could very well be a 1-6 team at the bye... Holmgren, most media talking heads - and an awful lot of fans - would feel he's justified in making a change at the bye in that situation.
If it doesn't happen then but Holmgren is seriously considering a change, he may already know that this team could be 1-14 going into Week 17... and if Mangini should be able to pull a rabit out of his hat and get a win against the Steelers, the massive outpouring of support to keep Mangini and his 2-15 season record for another go round will be pretty significant.
A lot of fans can't quite seem to see the forest through the trees - without his one win against the Steelers last year and the fan support that it brought, I think Gruden might be the head coach as we speak - and I think that would have been a good thing. (I guess for the Browns, sometimes even when we win, we lose! We kept Mangini, and lost out at a shot to grab Bradford or Suh!)
I love how guys get registered and lead with "fire the coach". Love it.
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Gruden sucks. Mangenius all the way. Go away troll.
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I don't think it's all that onerous to switch defensive schemes - many of the exiting players in a 3-4 can still play in a 4-3 - and we all know they're not even "complete" right now in the 3-4
So its a question of rebuilding around the 3-4 or the rebuilding around the 4-3...
If that's the best argument Mangini or his supporters can make for keeping him around, it's a pretty lame one and I don't think Holmgren would let that stop him from making an upgrade.
It's really just a question of whether Holmgren thinks Gruden would be an upgrade over what could very well be a 1-6 team at the bye... Holmgren, most media talking heads - and an awful lot of fans - would feel he's justified in making a change at the bye in that situation.
If it doesn't happen then but Holmgren is seriously considering a change, he may already know that this team could be 1-14 going into Week 17... and if Mangini should be able to pull a rabit out of his hat and get a win against the Steelers, the massive outpouring of support to keep Mangini and his 2-15 season record for another go round will be pretty significant.
A lot of fans can't quite seem to see the forest through the trees - without his one win against the Steelers last year and the fan support that it brought, I think Gruden might be the head coach as we speak - and I think that would have been a good thing. (I guess for the Browns, sometimes even when we win, we lose! We kept Mangini, and lost out at a shot to grab Bradford or Suh!)
I love how guys get registered and lead with "fire the coach". Love it.
I love how guys get registered and lead with "fire the coach". Love it.
Longtime lurker... who can't believe how complacent and "whipped" his fellow Browns fans have become... Mangini = Mediocrity and I'm tired of it... if everyone else feels good about being a mediocre team they're welcome to it, but I felt this Board was growing pretty stale with just a small handful of fans who seem to care enough to post and I finally decided to sign up
Gruden sucks. Mangenius all the way. Go away troll.
Yes... I understand anyone who doesn't support the current head coach must be considered a "troll" - I've seen it here a few times already...
I'm sure that if Mangini is fired and Gruden is hired many fans will do a 180 degree change to the sentiment you express noting that [current coach] is great and [all other coaches] suck and anyone who doesn't agree is a troll.
That's one of the things that worries me about Browns fans these days.
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I'm not understanding some of these replies. One person disagrees and the accusations of 'troll' as well as suspicions fall in line. That's sad.
And I'm neither here nor there, but really, someone suggesting a coaching change after a team's 1-6 start for consecutive seasons only to be villainized is illogical.
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I love Gruden's commentary on MNF but why is everyone so in love with him as a coach?
He inherited Dungy's team, won the Superbowl, then the Bucs went downhill from there.
Why do you think he's going to suddenly come here and turn us around when he couldn't stop the Bucs from dropping back into mediocrity?
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In many ways jon gruden would be a huge upgrade to mangini, but in most cases in the nfl unlike player talent which often (but not always) gets displaced by better talent, the owner/GM's generally do not just fire a coach because one that is available is better than the one you have now, its more a matter of confidence and belief in a coaches program and his ability to resolve issues and the only reasons an owner or GM would upgrade is if they either do not like the program/progress of a coach and or disagree with the direction in general or other problems like the coach has problems he cant overcome with players and such etc...
In my mind mangini is definitely running out of time, and i should clarify he isnt running out of time from losing games but more from the way he loses games by "sticking to the plan" which is often way to conservative with to much pre-game emphasis on things that dont really matter and not enough on what does, which is winning with what you have as opposed to not winning with what you have because you fail to utilize everything you have and then fail to create opportunities within your offense, its linear, its lazy, its rather generic and predictable and i would almost bet my left testy that our upper management feels similar...
Mangini needs to get a new OC and let that guy do his job without the hindrances of his kiddie practice schemes, why do we just run primarily inside the tackles and not use speed outside? Why do we never use screens? Why do we not rotate WRs to make a mismatch or confuse the defense? Why do we have no flexibility or versatility?
The why's and why nots go on and on with mangini and dabs and holmgren has to be really scratching his head if not beating it against a table upstairs...
And by the way gruden has indicated he may be ready to coach again soon...
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In many ways jon gruden would be a huge upgrade to mangini, but in most cases in the nfl unlike player talent which often (but not always) gets displaced by better talent, the owner/GM's generally do not just fire a coach because one that is available is better than the one you have now, its more a matter of confidence and belief in a coaches program and his ability to resolve issues and the only reasons an owner or GM would upgrade is if they either do not like the program/progress of a coach and or disagree with the direction in general or other problems like the coach has problems he cant overcome with players and such etc...
In my mind mangini is definitely running out of time, and i should clarify he isnt running out of time from losing games but more from the way he loses games by "sticking to the plan" which is often way to conservative with to much pre-game emphasis on things that dont really matter and not enough on what does, which is winning with what you have as opposed to not winning with what you have because you fail to utilize everything you have and then fail to create opportunities within your offense, its linear, its lazy, its rather generic and predictable and i would almost bet my left testy that our upper management feels similar...
Mangini needs to get a new OC and let that guy do his job without the hindrances of his kiddie practice schemes, why do we just run primarily inside the tackles and not use speed outside? Why do we never use screens? Why do we not rotate WRs to make a mismatch or confuse the defense? Why do we have no flexibility or versatility?
The why's and why nots go on and on with mangini and dabs and holmgren has to be really scratching his head if not beating it against a table upstairs...
And by the way gruden has indicated he may be ready to coach again soon...
In many ways jon gruden would be a huge upgrade to mangini, but in most cases in the nfl unlike player talent the owner/GM's does not just fire a coach because one that is available is better than the one you have now, its more a matter of confidence and belief in a coaches program and his ability to resolve issues and the only reasons an owner or GM would upgrade is if they either do not like the program/progress of a coach and or disagree with the direction in general or other problems like the coach has problems he cant overcome with players and such etc...
In my mind mangini is definitely running out of time, and i should clarify he isnt running out of time from losing games but more from the way he loses games by "sticking to the plan" with to much pre-game emphasis on things that dont really matter and not enough on what does, which is winning with what you have as opposed to not winning with what you have because you fail to utilize what you have or create opportunities within your offense, its linear, its lazy, its rather generic and predictable and i would bet my left testy that our upper management feels similar...
Mangini needs to get a new OC and let that guy do his job without the hindrances of his kiddie practice schemes, why do we just run primarily inside the tackles and not use speed outside? Why do we never use screens? Why do we not rotate WRs to make a mismatch or confuse the defense?
It goes on and on with mangini and dabs and holmgren has to be really scratching his head if not beating it against a table upstairs...
And by the way gruden has indicated he may be ready to coach again soon...
Fair enough, and good post. A few things:
1. I'm not sure about the OP, but my stance hasn't been 'drop Mangini for Gruden because he's a better coach', but rather drop Mangini because the team has not progressed the way we would have liked and it just so happens a much better coach is in the helms. The offense has been lacking in it's schemes as well as coverage packages on D. Mangini can't spot an audible and hasn't been fundamentally sound in the advanced kinetics of football. I applaud him for getting back to the basics, but at some point we just have to realize he's just not that good. I don't dislike him, but I am not satisfied with 'always next year' contention everyone is so apt with. He's not the right coach for this team. If it's another coach, thats fine, I personally want Cowher, but if we can get someone with the extensive knowledge of the game like Gruden, i'd be all for it as well.
2. I understand how the system works with the president and how they branch to the co-ordinators, but I also question they're ability to spot a not. The OC is horrible and there's no real challenge for the defenses, which the problem may lie.
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In many ways jon gruden would be a huge upgrade to mangini, but in most cases in the nfl unlike player talent the owner/GM's does not just fire a coach because one that is available is better than the one you have now, its more a matter of confidence and belief in a coaches program and his ability to resolve issues and the only reasons an owner or GM would upgrade is if they either do not like the program/progress of a coach and or disagree with the direction in general or other problems like the coach has problems he cant overcome with players and such etc...
In my mind mangini is definitely running out of time, and i should clarify he isnt running out of time from losing games but more from the way he loses games by "sticking to the plan" with to much pre-game emphasis on things that dont really matter and not enough on what does, which is winning with what you have as opposed to not winning with what you have because you fail to utilize what you have or create opportunities within your offense, its linear, its lazy, its rather generic and predictable and i would bet my left testy that our upper management feels similar...
Mangini needs to get a new OC and let that guy do his job without the hindrances of his kiddie practice schemes, why do we just run primarily inside the tackles and not use speed outside? Why do we never use screens? Why do we not rotate WRs to make a mismatch or confuse the defense?
It goes on and on with mangini and dabs and holmgren has to be really scratching his head if not beating it against a table upstairs...
And by the way gruden has indicated he may be ready to coach again soon...
Fair enough, and good post. A few things:
1. I'm not sure about the OP, but my stance hasn't been 'drop Mangini for Gruden because he's a better coach', but rather drop Mangini because the team has not progressed the way we would have liked and it just so happens a much better coach is in the helms. The offense has been lacking in it's schemes as well as coverage packages on D. Mangini can't spot an audible and hasn't been fundamentally sound in the advanced kinetics of football. I applaud him for getting back to the basics, but at some point we just have to realize he's just not that good. I don't dislike him, but I am not satisfied with 'always next year' contention everyone is so apt with. He's not the right coach for this team. If it's another coach, thats fine, I personally want Cowher, but if we can get someone with the extensive knowledge of the game like Gruden, i'd be all for it as well.
2. I understand how the system works with the president and how they branch to the co-ordinators, but I also question they're ability to spot a not. The OC is horrible and there's no real challenge for the defenses, which the problem may lie.
Fair enough, and good post. A few things:
1. I'm not sure about the OP, but my stance hasn't been 'drop Mangini for Gruden because he's a better coach', but rather drop Mangini because the team has not progressed the way we would have liked and it just so happens a much better coach is in the helms. The offense has been lacking in it's schemes as well as coverage packages on D. Mangini can't spot an audible and hasn't been fundamentally sound in the advanced kinetics of football. I applaud him for getting back to the basics, but at some point we just have to realize he's just not that good. I don't dislike him, but I am not satisfied with 'always next year' contention everyone is so apt with. He's not the right coach for this team. If it's another coach, thats fine, I personally want Cowher, but if we can get someone with the extensive knowledge of the game like Gruden, i'd be all for it as well.
2. I understand how the system works with the president and how they branch to the co-ordinators, but I also question they're ability to spot a not. The OC is horrible and there's no real challenge for the defenses, which the problem may lie.
"Advanced kinetics of football"?? Please explain. The defense needs new coverage packages? Is there some new kind of defense that we don't know about? How about when you call man under 2 deep the guys actually cover? How about when you call the will backer through the B gap....he actually gets to the QB?
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whatever makes the cleveland hating media and espn happy....er wait that is espn
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Fair enough, and good post. A few things:
1. I'm not sure about the OP, but my stance hasn't been 'drop Mangini for Gruden because he's a better coach', but rather drop Mangini because the team has not progressed the way we would have liked and it just so happens a much better coach is in the helms. The offense has been lacking in it's schemes as well as coverage packages on D. Mangini can't spot an audible and hasn't been fundamentally sound in the advanced kinetics of football. I applaud him for getting back to the basics, but at some point we just have to realize he's just not that good. I don't dislike him, but I am not satisfied with 'always next year' contention everyone is so apt with. He's not the right coach for this team. If it's another coach, thats fine, I personally want Cowher, but if we can get someone with the extensive knowledge of the game like Gruden, i'd be all for it as well.
2. I understand how the system works with the president and how they branch to the co-ordinators, but I also question they're ability to spot a not. The OC is horrible and there's no real challenge for the defenses, which the problem may lie.
"Advanced kinetics of football"?? Please explain. The defense needs new coverage packages? Is there some new kind of defense that we don't know about? How about when you call man under 2 deep the guys actually cover? How about when you call the will backer through the B gap....he actually gets to the QB?
"Advanced kinetics of football"?? Please explain. The defense needs new coverage packages? Is there some new kind of defense that we don't know about? How about when you call man under 2 deep the guys actually cover? How about when you call the will backer through the B gap....he actually gets to the QB?
Mangini has done a good job 'taming' this team and keeping them from going up and over their feet; however, he lacks what the truly great coaches have: ingenuity. Now, we can't all possibly assume every coach would have schemes on both sides of the ball like, say Belichick, but I wouldn't put it past him to have learned a thing or two during his tenure with him. I'm not certain if it's just the player IQs or coaching, but the team's abilities to pick up the extra man are lacking all while being broken down at the point of attack. The defense has been average, and the offense has been below average.
And BTW, you've completely missed the point of my previous post in regards to the kinetics of football. I was simply alluding to the decrepit nature in which Mangini is playing at and that his days are numbered. I'm not quite sure if my points flew right past you or you chose to ignore them.
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I think people are misinterpreting the post. I don't believe Mangini is bad coach, but I also don't believe he's the right coach.
Simply put.
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In many ways jon gruden would be a huge upgrade to mangini, but in most cases in the nfl unlike player talent the owner/GM's does not just fire a coach because one that is available is better than the one you have now, its more a matter of confidence and belief in a coaches program and his ability to resolve issues and the only reasons an owner or GM would upgrade is if they either do not like the program/progress of a coach and or disagree with the direction in general or other problems like the coach has problems he cant overcome with players and such etc...
In my mind mangini is definitely running out of time, and i should clarify he isnt running out of time from losing games but more from the way he loses games by "sticking to the plan" with to much pre-game emphasis on things that dont really matter and not enough on what does, which is winning with what you have as opposed to not winning with what you have because you fail to utilize what you have or create opportunities within your offense, its linear, its lazy, its rather generic and predictable and i would bet my left testy that our upper management feels similar...
Mangini needs to get a new OC and let that guy do his job without the hindrances of his kiddie practice schemes, why do we just run primarily inside the tackles and not use speed outside? Why do we never use screens? Why do we not rotate WRs to make a mismatch or confuse the defense?
It goes on and on with mangini and dabs and holmgren has to be really scratching his head if not beating it against a table upstairs...
And by the way gruden has indicated he may be ready to coach again soon...
Fair enough, and good post. A few things:
1. I'm not sure about the OP, but my stance hasn't been 'drop Mangini for Gruden because he's a better coach', but rather drop Mangini because the team has not progressed the way we would have liked and it just so happens a much better coach is in the helms. The offense has been lacking in it's schemes as well as coverage packages on D. Mangini can't spot an audible and hasn't been fundamentally sound in the advanced kinetics of football. I applaud him for getting back to the basics, but at some point we just have to realize he's just not that good. I don't dislike him, but I am not satisfied with 'always next year' contention everyone is so apt with. He's not the right coach for this team. If it's another coach, thats fine, I personally want Cowher, but if we can get someone with the extensive knowledge of the game like Gruden, i'd be all for it as well.
2. I understand how the system works with the president and how they branch to the co-ordinators, but I also question they're ability to spot a not. The OC is horrible and there's no real challenge for the defenses, which the problem may lie.
Fair enough, and good post. A few things:
1. I'm not sure about the OP, but my stance hasn't been 'drop Mangini for Gruden because he's a better coach', but rather drop Mangini because the team has not progressed the way we would have liked and it just so happens a much better coach is in the helms. The offense has been lacking in it's schemes as well as coverage packages on D. Mangini can't spot an audible and hasn't been fundamentally sound in the advanced kinetics of football. I applaud him for getting back to the basics, but at some point we just have to realize he's just not that good. I don't dislike him, but I am not satisfied with 'always next year' contention everyone is so apt with. He's not the right coach for this team. If it's another coach, thats fine, I personally want Cowher, but if we can get someone with the extensive knowledge of the game like Gruden, i'd be all for it as well.
2. I understand how the system works with the president and how they branch to the co-ordinators, but I also question they're ability to spot a not. The OC is horrible and there's no real challenge for the defenses, which the problem may lie.
The team hasn't progressed the way YOU would like. I suspect you measure progress solely by wins. I've seen lots of progress on the team and within the organization. There's a general feeling of stability and order that I like and hope to see continue. I don't think we need to throw anyone out just yet, especially not Mangini.
Woof Woof, Kathy http://cognitivemanifesto.com/ http://www.skadden.com/index.cfm?contentID=49&officeID=9 Bendix ESP -
"Advanced kinetics of football"?? Please explain. The defense needs new coverage packages? Is there some new kind of defense that we don't know about? How about when you call man under 2 deep the guys actually cover? How about when you call the will backer through the B gap....he actually gets to the QB?
Mangini has done a good job 'taming' this team and keeping them from going up and over their feet; however, he lacks what the truly great coaches have: ingenuity. Now, we can't all possibly assume every coach would have schemes on both sides of the ball like, say Belichick, but I wouldn't put it past him to have learned a thing or two during his tenure with him. I'm not certain if it's just the player IQs or coaching, but the team's abilities to pick up the extra man are lacking all while being broken down at the point of attack. The defense has been average, and the offense has been below average.
And BTW, you've completely missed the point of my previous post in regards to the kinetics of football. I was simply alluding to the decrepit nature in which Mangini is playing at and that his days are numbered. I'm not quite sure if my points flew right past you or you chose to ignore them.
Mangini has done a good job 'taming' this team and keeping them from going up and over their feet; however, he lacks what the truly great coaches have: ingenuity. Now, we can't all possibly assume every coach would have schemes on both sides of the ball like, say Belichick, but I wouldn't put it past him to have learned a thing or two during his tenure with him. I'm not certain if it's just the player IQs or coaching, but the team's abilities to pick up the extra man are lacking all while being broken down at the point of attack. The defense has been average, and the offense has been below average.
And BTW, you've completely missed the point of my previous post in regards to the kinetics of football. I was simply alluding to the decrepit nature in which Mangini is playing at and that his days are numbered. I'm not quite sure if my points flew right past you or you chose to ignore them.
No need to be rude. You're decidedly vague in your explanations, hence the questions.
If you're not sure if it's player IQ or coaching then how can you say it's the coaching?
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"Advanced kinetics of football"?? Please explain. The defense needs new coverage packages? Is there some new kind of defense that we don't know about? How about when you call man under 2 deep the guys actually cover? How about when you call the will backer through the B gap....he actually gets to the QB?
Mangini has done a good job 'taming' this team and keeping them from going up and over their feet; however, he lacks what the truly great coaches have: ingenuity. Now, we can't all possibly assume every coach would have schemes on both sides of the ball like, say Belichick, but I wouldn't put it past him to have learned a thing or two during his tenure with him. I'm not certain if it's just the player IQs or coaching, but the team's abilities to pick up the extra man are lacking all while being broken down at the point of attack. The defense has been average, and the offense has been below average.
And BTW, you've completely missed the point of my previous post in regards to the kinetics of football. I was simply alluding to the decrepit nature in which Mangini is playing at and that his days are numbered. I'm not quite sure if my points flew right past you or you chose to ignore them.
Mangini has done a good job 'taming' this team and keeping them from going up and over their feet; however, he lacks what the truly great coaches have: ingenuity. Now, we can't all possibly assume every coach would have schemes on both sides of the ball like, say Belichick, but I wouldn't put it past him to have learned a thing or two during his tenure with him. I'm not certain if it's just the player IQs or coaching, but the team's abilities to pick up the extra man are lacking all while being broken down at the point of attack. The defense has been average, and the offense has been below average.
And BTW, you've completely missed the point of my previous post in regards to the kinetics of football. I was simply alluding to the decrepit nature in which Mangini is playing at and that his days are numbered. I'm not quite sure if my points flew right past you or you chose to ignore them.
You do remember that Belichick was the Browns' coach don't you? Everyone called for HIS head on a daily basis. Our team has improved as the quality of players has improved. There are still some holes to be filled with better talent. If Mangini were working with a full deck and our season looked like this, I'd be griping. IMO, he's done a lot with a little and is moving the ship slowly but surely in the right direction.
Woof Woof, Kathy http://cognitivemanifesto.com/ http://www.skadden.com/index.cfm?contentID=49&officeID=9 Bendix ESP
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