Tight Ends
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mikeyP72 said:
You never actually say anything Pizzadude. You just make empty statements like Steeler fans.Please explain why you aren't sold on Haden, I'd love to hear it.
Pot<>Kettle
Pot<>Kettle
No not really. You haven't really done anything but stat our opinion on empty statement and receiving stats for a position that doesn't just revolve around what the stats say. The TE position goes deeper than catches and yards it is a multi job position that can not be judged by stats alone but that is apparently all you can look at. And even all the factors that go into why he didn't do as well in NE are ignored. You use receiving stats from other TE who are used as slot receivers in a lot of situations and are actually the 2nd receiving option on their team where as Watson in NE and in Cleveland was used as a 3rd receiving option TE.
Oh and taking cracks at age is funny and pushing that I'm a homer is a riot. What I'm saying is that Watson is a top 15 TE and at tied for top TE in the AFCN. I'm not saying that he is the best TE receiving wise or blocking wise, but combined his receiving ability and blocking ability combined make him a top 15 TE. That's not a homer statement that is a statement from someone who is actually looking at all the factors that make up a TE to make an informed decision, not one from some narrow minded dude only looking at a stat sheet.
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Hillis-iz-Boss said:
Think about it like this, if the WR were bad then wouldn't that mean that they would focus more on Watson in coverage. You could cover each WR on our roster with one guy and easily put two on Watson since he was our only reciving option. I can understand why you feel that no WR production means that Watson was focused on more by our QB's, but that does also mean he was focused on more by opposing defenses. I also credit Watson for his production becuase he got production evenly over the course of the season even though we had 3 different starters.I will agree that Belichek didn't make a mistake by letting Watson go. I can go over all day why Watson didn't produce well in NE but the bottom line is that he didn't produce well there. For the price that they would have had to pay Watson to stay they were able to draft and pay 2 rookie TE the same price who by all accounts fit in their system a little better and did do well this year.
Hate to over simplify it but.........Bad WR corp = more TE targets = inflated statistics.
I honestly like Watson and he is passable for now but he is no where near the TE that you guys are making him out to be. I would gladly trade him for Heap or Miller.
Hate to over simplify it but.........Bad WR corp = more TE targets = inflated statistics.
I honestly like Watson and he is passable for now but he is no where near the TE that you guys are making him out to be. I would gladly trade him for Heap or Miller.
I haven't read Gips replies yet but based on your responses I can deduce what was said and I completely agree. I'm not sure why anyone thinks Ben Watson is all world because he put up 700 yards receiving. As I already pointed out his career receiving yards were 400 less and he has 6 td's less than Miller yet played one more season. He also can't block and Miller blocks like a lineman. Todd Heap on the other hand is injury prone but if not for his injuries would be a top 5 guy in the league. Period. Ben Watson despite his production this year is the worst TE in the division. He's a cast off that had a solid year because of the inept receiving core around him. He still has solid speed so as a safety valve he did well and I'd wager had significantly more targets than the rest of the team.
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The question came up as to why Watson was not still with the Patriots. I think the reason may be in these stats:
2005 25 NWE TE 15 9 29 441 15.2 4 35 1.9 29.4
2006 26 NWE TE 13 13 49 643 13.1 3 40 3.8 49.5
2007 27 NWE te 12 8 36 389 10.8 6 35 3.0 32.4
2008 28 NWE TE 14 9 22 209 9.5 2 29 1.6 14.9
2009 29 NWE TE 16 7 29 404 13.9 5 36 1.8 25.3
2010 30 CLE TE 16 16 68 763 11.2 3 44 4
The answer seems simple: he was being under utilized by the Pats and he left. He had by far his best career numbers with the Browns.
The question came up as to why Watson was not still with the Patriots. I think the reason may be in these stats:
2005 25 NWE TE 15 9 29 441 15.2 4 35 1.9 29.4
2006 26 NWE TE 13 13 49 643 13.1 3 40 3.8 49.5
2007 27 NWE te 12 8 36 389 10.8 6 35 3.0 32.4
2008 28 NWE TE 14 9 22 209 9.5 2 29 1.6 14.9
2009 29 NWE TE 16 7 29 404 13.9 5 36 1.8 25.3
2010 30 CLE TE 16 16 68 763 11.2 3 44 4
The answer seems simple: he was being under utilized by the Pats and he left. He had by far his best career numbers with the Browns.
IF we was "underutilized" why did Hernandez and Gronkowski have so much success this past season? The Patriot offense pre and post Randy Moss was/is a dink and dunk team. They don't take a lot of deep shots and Brady's passing breakdown this season displays exactly that AND it's no coincidence that the Patriots also had solid production from their TE's this season. Match up problems on a team with a less than stellar receiving core. Wes Welker is solid but Brandon Tate is young and Branch is over the hill and all of their numbers are inflated by Brady. Ben Watson was not underutilized. Ben Watson was expendable.
AKA SNATCH98 or Rorbotron. The boards glorious admins decided to get cute and change my name to "homotron" Classy group of people. (Lost a bet with Columbus king and got banned for a month) -
Pot<>Kettle
No not really. You haven't really done anything but stat our opinion on empty statement and receiving stats for a position that doesn't just revolve around what the stats say. The TE position goes deeper than catches and yards it is a multi job position that can not be judged by stats alone but that is apparently all you can look at. And even all the factors that go into why he didn't do as well in NE are ignored. You use receiving stats from other TE who are used as slot receivers in a lot of situations and are actually the 2nd receiving option on their team where as Watson in NE and in Cleveland was used as a 3rd receiving option TE.
Oh and taking cracks at age is funny and pushing that I'm a homer is a riot. What I'm saying is that Watson is a top 15 TE and at tied for top TE in the AFCN. I'm not saying that he is the best TE receiving wise or blocking wise, but combined his receiving ability and blocking ability combined make him a top 15 TE. That's not a homer statement that is a statement from someone who is actually looking at all the factors that make up a TE to make an informed decision, not one from some narrow minded dude only looking at a stat sheet.
Hillis-iz-Boss said:
No not really. You haven't really done anything but stat our opinion on empty statement and receiving stats for a position that doesn't just revolve around what the stats say. The TE position goes deeper than catches and yards it is a multi job position that can not be judged by stats alone but that is apparently all you can look at. And even all the factors that go into why he didn't do as well in NE are ignored. You use receiving stats from other TE who are used as slot receivers in a lot of situations and are actually the 2nd receiving option on their team where as Watson in NE and in Cleveland was used as a 3rd receiving option TE.Oh and taking cracks at age is funny and pushing that I'm a homer is a riot. What I'm saying is that Watson is a top 15 TE and at tied for top TE in the AFCN. I'm not saying that he is the best TE receiving wise or blocking wise, but combined his receiving ability and blocking ability combined make him a top 15 TE. That's not a homer statement that is a statement from someone who is actually looking at all the factors that make up a TE to make an informed decision, not one from some narrow minded dude only looking at a stat sheet.
Sorry, I'll start grading out Tight Ends like lineman and ignore the fact that catching the ball is the most important part of their job. The funny thing is, if I actually did that, Watson would still be behind Miller. I will agree with you that he is right around 15th in the league as far as TEs go. Which I believe is what I have been saying.
You guys just ignoring the check down and dump off factor is truly laughable though. The RB/TE positions accounted for 165 out of 296 completions this year. If you can't see why that makes the TE #s artificial then I really don't know how else I can state it. Once again, Watson is a pretty average TE.
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The question came up as to why Watson was not still with the Patriots. I think the reason may be in these stats:
2005 25 NWE TE 15 9 29 441 15.2 4 35 1.9 29.4
2006 26 NWE TE 13 13 49 643 13.1 3 40 3.8 49.5
2007 27 NWE te 12 8 36 389 10.8 6 35 3.0 32.4
2008 28 NWE TE 14 9 22 209 9.5 2 29 1.6 14.9
2009 29 NWE TE 16 7 29 404 13.9 5 36 1.8 25.3
2010 30 CLE TE 16 16 68 763 11.2 3 44 4
The answer seems simple: he was being under utilized by the Pats and he left. He had by far his best career numbers with the Browns.
IF we was "underutilized" why did Hernandez and Gronkowski have so much success this past season? The Patriot offense pre and post Randy Moss was/is a dink and dunk team. They don't take a lot of deep shots and Brady's passing breakdown this season displays exactly that AND it's no coincidence that the Patriots also had solid production from their TE's this season. Match up problems on a team with a less than stellar receiving core. Wes Welker is solid but Brandon Tate is young and Branch is over the hill and all of their numbers are inflated by Brady. Ben Watson was not underutilized. Ben Watson was expendable.
Homotron said:
IF we was "underutilized" why did Hernandez and Gronkowski have so much success this past season? The Patriot offense pre and post Randy Moss was/is a dink and dunk team. They don't take a lot of deep shots and Brady's passing breakdown this season displays exactly that AND it's no coincidence that the Patriots also had solid production from their TE's this season. Match up problems on a team with a less than stellar receiving core. Wes Welker is solid but Brandon Tate is young and Branch is over the hill and all of their numbers are inflated by Brady. Ben Watson was not underutilized. Ben Watson was expendable.Maybe Watson was expendable under Belichick's system. So was one of the greatest receivers of all time, Randy Moss.
Watson apparently didn't thrive under Belichick's system, but he certainly thrived with a team that had a lot lesser talent around him.
And perhaps it is no coincidence that Ben Watson had solid production after getting away from Belichick.
I mean, gee, Troy Aikman didn't do too well under Barry Switzer's Wishbone offense. That made him expendable as well.
Len Dawson was expendable by both the Steelers and the Browns who cut him, but he went on to become a Hall of Famer.
Drew Brees was expendable by the Chargers. How's he doing now? etc. etc. Lots of people don't fit in certain systems. Hell, if Joe Montana had been drafted by any other team than the 49ers he may have been a bust for all we know. But it was the right place right time for him. But it might have be the right place, wrong time for Watson:
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mikeyP72 said:
Ben Watson - 5th in Receiving for TE's. His 11.2 AVG is middle of the road when it comes to TE's. Not to mention that he caught 40 1st down passes and had 10 passes over 20 yards long and 1 for over 40 yards (there goes the dumb comment about all of his catches being short dump offs).Catches- 68
Yards- 763
Avg- 11.2
Long- 44
TD- 3
Sources: NFL.com and ClevelandBrowns.com
I wouldn't call 39th middle of the road and for a guy that is supposed to be as good as you want him to be, 3 TDs isn't exactly what dreams are made of either. Also, I love how all I do is throw up empty stats and you back up your statement with, wait a minute, what's this? The same thing. Nice job in reaffirming pot<>kettle.
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Hillis-iz-Boss said:
No not really. You haven't really done anything but stat our opinion on empty statement and receiving stats for a position that doesn't just revolve around what the stats say. The TE position goes deeper than catches and yards it is a multi job position that can not be judged by stats alone but that is apparently all you can look at. And even all the factors that go into why he didn't do as well in NE are ignored. You use receiving stats from other TE who are used as slot receivers in a lot of situations and are actually the 2nd receiving option on their team where as Watson in NE and in Cleveland was used as a 3rd receiving option TE.Oh and taking cracks at age is funny and pushing that I'm a homer is a riot. What I'm saying is that Watson is a top 15 TE and at tied for top TE in the AFCN. I'm not saying that he is the best TE receiving wise or blocking wise, but combined his receiving ability and blocking ability combined make him a top 15 TE. That's not a homer statement that is a statement from someone who is actually looking at all the factors that make up a TE to make an informed decision, not one from some narrow minded dude only looking at a stat sheet.
Sorry, I'll start grading out Tight Ends like lineman and ignore the fact that catching the ball is the most important part of their job. The funny thing is, if I actually did that, Watson would still be behind Miller. I will agree with you that he is right around 15th in the league as far as TEs go. Which I believe is what I have been saying.
You guys just ignoring the check down and dump off factor is truly laughable though. The RB/TE positions accounted for 165 out of 296 completions this year. If you can't see why that makes the TE #s artificial then I really don't know how else I can state it. Once again, Watson is a pretty average TE.
Sorry, I'll start grading out Tight Ends like lineman and ignore the fact that catching the ball is the most important part of their job. The funny thing is, if I actually did that, Watson would still be behind Miller. I will agree with you that he is right around 15th in the league as far as TEs go. Which I believe is what I have been saying.
You guys just ignoring the check down and dump off factor is truly laughable though. The RB/TE positions accounted for 165 out of 296 completions this year. If you can't see why that makes the TE #s artificial then I really don't know how else I can state it. Once again, Watson is a pretty average TE.
TE need to do both, otherwise they are just glorified slot receivers. To think that Miller is a better blocker is just stupid. The might have the same receiving ability but Watson is way better at run blocking.
I always like conversations like this though because it allows me to find out who really knows what they are talking about and who is just blowing smoke out of their ass. You are blowing smoke out of your ass. I wouldn't be surprised if your name was your actual job. Papa John's or Dominoes'.
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I wouldn't be surprised if your name was your actual job
just blowing smoke out of their ass
your opinion is wrong douche bag
Again Retard
and thread/
Seriously, I've wasted too much time arguing about an average TE.
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Sorry, I'll start grading out Tight Ends like lineman and ignore the fact that catching the ball is the most important part of their job. The funny thing is, if I actually did that, Watson would still be behind Miller. I will agree with you that he is right around 15th in the league as far as TEs go. Which I believe is what I have been saying.
You guys just ignoring the check down and dump off factor is truly laughable though. The RB/TE positions accounted for 165 out of 296 completions this year. If you can't see why that makes the TE #s artificial then I really don't know how else I can state it. Once again, Watson is a pretty average TE.
TE need to do both, otherwise they are just glorified slot receivers. To think that Miller is a better blocker is just stupid. The might have the same receiving ability but Watson is way better at run blocking.
I always like conversations like this though because it allows me to find out who really knows what they are talking about and who is just blowing smoke out of their ass. You are blowing smoke out of your ass. I wouldn't be surprised if your name was your actual job. Papa John's or Dominoes'.
Hillis-iz-Boss said:
TE need to do both, otherwise they are just glorified slot receivers. To think that Miller is a better blocker is just stupid. The might have the same receiving ability but Watson is way better at run blocking.I always like conversations like this though because it allows me to find out who really knows what they are talking about and who is just blowing smoke out of their ass. You are blowing smoke out of your ass. I wouldn't be surprised if your name was your actual job. Papa John's or Dominoes'.
Man this is going to be a long off season if all that goes on around here is arguments about 2 middle of the pack TE's. These 2 TE's are pretty close to being a wash.
And Miller probably is a little bit better blocking TE and Watson is a little more of a threat to make a play with the ball. JMHO. I don't mind having Watson and I wouldn't mind having Miller even. I also wouldn't think switching one with the other would be an upgrade. There are cerainly atleast a handful of TE's better then both of them.
With all that being said I hope we resign Evan Moore ... I would like to see what he develops into. He has some nice upside to be a nice pass catching TE. Great hands and good size.
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Hillis-iz-Boss said:
TE need to do both, otherwise they are just glorified slot receivers. To think that Miller is a better blocker is just stupid. The might have the same receiving ability but Watson is way better at run blocking.I always like conversations like this though because it allows me to find out who really knows what they are talking about and who is just blowing smoke out of their ass. You are blowing smoke out of your ass. I wouldn't be surprised if your name was your actual job. Papa John's or Dominoes'.
Man this is going to be a long off season if all that goes on around here is arguments about 2 middle of the pack TE's. These 2 TE's are pretty close to being a wash.
And Miller probably is a little bit better blocking TE and Watson is a little more of a threat to make a play with the ball. JMHO. I don't mind having Watson and I wouldn't mind having Miller even. I also wouldn't think switching one with the other would be an upgrade. There are cerainly atleast a handful of TE's better then both of them.
With all that being said I hope we resign Evan Moore ... I would like to see what he develops into. He has some nice upside to be a nice pass catching TE. Great hands and good size.
Man this is going to be a long off season if all that goes on around here is arguments about 2 middle of the pack TE's. These 2 TE's are pretty close to being a wash.
And Miller probably is a little bit better blocking TE and Watson is a little more of a threat to make a play with the ball. JMHO. I don't mind having Watson and I wouldn't mind having Miller even. I also wouldn't think switching one with the other would be an upgrade. There are cerainly atleast a handful of TE's better then both of them.
With all that being said I hope we resign Evan Moore ... I would like to see what he develops into. He has some nice upside to be a nice pass catching TE. Great hands and good size.
Lol Heath Miller isn't a average TE and the only individuals on planet earth that would say that he is reside on this message board. They are in no way, shape or form a wash and that isn't being a homer. Watson is a average TE on a team with very average passing options. Hillis ran the ball well which at least opened things up for Watson over the middle. TE's with decent speed are usually match up problems so it's easier for a average TE to do something on a average offense than it would be a receiver, especially one quarterbacked by a rookie QB. Ben Watson is not that good. Sorry fellas, he just isn't. Miller is a top 10 te, bottom of the top 10 but still top 10. Period.
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Man this is going to be a long off season if all that goes on around here is arguments about 2 middle of the pack TE's. These 2 TE's are pretty close to being a wash.
And Miller probably is a little bit better blocking TE and Watson is a little more of a threat to make a play with the ball. JMHO. I don't mind having Watson and I wouldn't mind having Miller even. I also wouldn't think switching one with the other would be an upgrade. There are cerainly atleast a handful of TE's better then both of them.
With all that being said I hope we resign Evan Moore ... I would like to see what he develops into. He has some nice upside to be a nice pass catching TE. Great hands and good size.
Lol Heath Miller isn't a average TE and the only individuals on planet earth that would say that he is reside on this message board. They are in no way, shape or form a wash and that isn't being a homer. Watson is a average TE on a team with very average passing options. Hillis ran the ball well which at least opened things up for Watson over the middle. TE's with decent speed are usually match up problems so it's easier for a average TE to do something on a average offense than it would be a receiver, especially one quarterbacked by a rookie QB. Ben Watson is not that good. Sorry fellas, he just isn't. Miller is a top 10 te, bottom of the top 10 but still top 10. Period.
Homotron said:
Lol Heath Miller isn't a average TE and the only individuals on planet earth that would say that he is reside on this message board. They are in no way, shape or form a wash and that isn't being a homer. Watson is a average TE on a team with very average passing options. Hillis ran the ball well which at least opened things up for Watson over the middle. TE's with decent speed are usually match up problems so it's easier for a average TE to do something on a average offense than it would be a receiver, especially one quarterbacked by a rookie QB. Ben Watson is not that good. Sorry fellas, he just isn't. Miller is a top 10 te, bottom of the top 10 but still top 10. Period.Thats great that you don't think he is average. But the reality is he and Watson are both average and very much in the same tier of TE. It's not a knock on Miller or Watson, but the reality is they are middle of the pack guys. Those 2 are clumped in the middle with the likes of the Merceds Lewis, Brandon Pettigrew, Greg Olsen, Dustin Keller, Kevin Boss and Visanthe Shiancoe's of the league.
Sorry to break it to you.
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Not to bad for an average TE. Think miller coulda done this? Hell no!
I don't know what video you were trying to post. Was it this one.
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Not to bad for an average TE. Think miller coulda done this? Hell no!
I don't know what video you were trying to post. Was it this one.
Hillis-iz-Boss said:
I don't know what video you were trying to post. Was it this one.Yeah that's it, I forgot when you post stuff from a smart phone you have to erase the (M.) After http.
Thanks for catching that.
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Hillis-iz-Boss said:
I don't know what video you were trying to post. Was it this one.Yeah that's it, I forgot when you post stuff from a smart phone you have to erase the (M.) After http.
Thanks for catching that.
Yeah that's it, I forgot when you post stuff from a smart phone you have to erase the (M.) After http.
Thanks for catching that.
That video is a great example of Ben's Character. He is not the best TE in the country, but he is going to work his ass off to be the best he can possibly be all the time.
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Yeah that's it, I forgot when you post stuff from a smart phone you have to erase the (M.) After http.
Thanks for catching that.
That video is a great example of Ben's Character. He is not the best TE in the country, but he is going to work his ass off to be the best he can possibly be all the time.
Hillis-iz-Boss said:
That video is a great example of Ben's Character. He is not the best TE in the country, but he is going to work his ass off to be the best he can possibly be all the time.That was also a LONG ass time ago all things considered and very impressive when it happened. I remember seeing it live.
AKA SNATCH98 or Rorbotron. The boards glorious admins decided to get cute and change my name to "homotron" Classy group of people. (Lost a bet with Columbus king and got banned for a month) -
Hillis-iz-Boss said:
That video is a great example of Ben's Character. He is not the best TE in the country, but he is going to work his ass off to be the best he can possibly be all the time.That was also a LONG ass time ago all things considered and very impressive when it happened. I remember seeing it live.
Homotron said:
That was also a LONG ass time ago all things considered and very impressive when it happened. I remember seeing it live.It was in 2005. His second year in the league. He's not as old and washed up as you're trying miserably to portray him as.
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Homotron said:
That was also a LONG ass time ago all things considered and very impressive when it happened. I remember seeing it live.It was in 2005. His second year in the league. He's not as old and washed up as you're trying miserably to portray him as.
It was in 2005. His second year in the league. He's not as old and washed up as you're trying miserably to portray him as.
For a player in the NFL that was a long time ago and it was a long time ago.
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Homotron said:
Lol Heath Miller isn't a average TE and the only individuals on planet earth that would say that he is reside on this message board. They are in no way, shape or form a wash and that isn't being a homer. Watson is a average TE on a team with very average passing options. Hillis ran the ball well which at least opened things up for Watson over the middle. TE's with decent speed are usually match up problems so it's easier for a average TE to do something on a average offense than it would be a receiver, especially one quarterbacked by a rookie QB. Ben Watson is not that good. Sorry fellas, he just isn't. Miller is a top 10 te, bottom of the top 10 but still top 10. Period.Thats great that you don't think he is average. But the reality is he and Watson are both average and very much in the same tier of TE. It's not a knock on Miller or Watson, but the reality is they are middle of the pack guys. Those 2 are clumped in the middle with the likes of the Merceds Lewis, Brandon Pettigrew, Greg Olsen, Dustin Keller, Kevin Boss and Visanthe Shiancoe's of the league.
Sorry to break it to you.
Thats great that you don't think he is average. But the reality is he and Watson are both average and very much in the same tier of TE. It's not a knock on Miller or Watson, but the reality is they are middle of the pack guys. Those 2 are clumped in the middle with the likes of the Merceds Lewis, Brandon Pettigrew, Greg Olsen, Dustin Keller, Kevin Boss and Visanthe Shiancoe's of the league.
Sorry to break it to you.
This is pretty good posting although Pettigrew may end up being in tier 1 eventually.
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Thats great that you don't think he is average. But the reality is he and Watson are both average and very much in the same tier of TE. It's not a knock on Miller or Watson, but the reality is they are middle of the pack guys. Those 2 are clumped in the middle with the likes of the Merceds Lewis, Brandon Pettigrew, Greg Olsen, Dustin Keller, Kevin Boss and Visanthe Shiancoe's of the league.
Sorry to break it to you.
This is pretty good posting although Pettigrew may end up being in tier 1 eventually.
This is pretty good posting although Pettigrew may end up being in tier 1 eventually.
He could, but right now he is in this group.
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