Revisionist History
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The only Championships that mean anything to me are the ones that I, as a fan, would be able to experience and enjoy.
I don't get a ring or anything else when/if a Cleveland team wins a Championship. The only enjoyment of a Championship, for a team I follow, would be watching the team achieve it.
I was born in 1965. I have never been able to celebrate a Cleveland Championship. I guess I can taunt other teams fans with what happened prior to me being born, but overall, I would rather have watched the Browns win last years Super Bowl, than brag about all the Championships that happened in the 50's and 60's.
The Soldier said:
The only Championships that mean anything to me are the ones that I, as a fan, would be able to experience and enjoy.
I was born in 1965. I have never been able to celebrate a Cleveland Championship. I guess I can taunt other teams fans with what happened prior to me being born, but overall, I would rather have watched the Browns win last years Super Bowl, than brag about all the Championships that happened in the 50's and 60's.
but wear a vintage jim brown jersey to your sorority party and see if all your little girlfriends and tough gals who listen to pitbull or usher wouldn't be all over your swollen pussy.
as was said before: who gives a shit that you weren't around when you could brag about the browns' dynasty of championships.
what's the matter, can't read a book?
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@king-ghoolie-lives said:
In 1976, calling Steeler fans was fiar game. In 2012? After 6 super bowl wins in THIRTY SIX YYEARS?
Thirty Six Years of competitive, SB winning, AFC winning, Afc North Winning, Kicking the shit out of the Browns?
Sorry, but you can hate the Steelers all you want, but they aren't bandwagon fans. They now have a very long, and rich heritage of winning. The overtook our head-to-head advantage, embarassingly with sweep after sweep after sweep.
As far as the Browns ancient championships go? They don't count and they don't mean shit. They have no modern day monetary, marketing or fan-appeal purpose. Only die hard fans know or care about this shit.
You can't compare the old teams wins with the events of JFK or MLK and the like. Those events are clear as a bell,and have impact to many people, of all ages. Most pleople can tell you how JFK and MLK was and what happened to them.
Ask people about Paul Brown, Lavelli, Motley, and 95% of America will look at you like you are incoherent.
In the modern Era of football, the era WE LIVE IN..............The Browns franchise has been used to wipe shit out of the asses of Steeler fans, players and management. That's just how it is.
yes folks, come one come all....the real ghoulie has once again been caged and is showing his true colors. the old "oh i love the browns and HandH are great and we are finally going to kick the steeler's asses this year"..........HA! whoever bought into that shit still thinks rich4eagle and dickmellon and ghoulie are different entities.
you can be funny, articulate and very knowledgeable at times on the forum but you can't escape the true fact that if it became a 'draw straws' game of browns/steelers you'd always root for the steelers.
you embarrass yourself sometimes my friend. shameful.
you really care what the younger generation thinks about the 'written in stone' titles the browns won before the superbowl? if you do go put on your Tiny Canadian Pussy Douche cd and jam out going to work at old navy.
better yet fuck them and fuck you.
yes folks, come one come all....the real ghoulie has once again been caged and is showing his true colors. the old "oh i love the browns and HandH are great and we are finally going to kick the steeler's asses this year"..........HA! whoever bought into that shit still thinks rich4eagle and dickmellon and ghoulie are different entities.
you can be funny, articulate and very knowledgeable at times on the forum but you can't escape the true fact that if it became a 'draw straws' game of browns/steelers you'd always root for the steelers.
you embarrass yourself sometimes my friend. shameful.
you really care what the younger generation thinks about the 'written in stone' titles the browns won before the superbowl? if you do go put on your Tiny Canadian Pussy Douche cd and jam out going to work at old navy.
better yet fuck them and fuck you.
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America the definitive award is the Stanley Cup, which originated with the NHL.
Just to clarify this again. The Stanley Cup did not originate with the NHL. It was being awarded 30 years before the NHL ever existed.
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I love this board. EVERYTHING here is about the Steelers.
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as we love your steeler forum when we have shots of your mom like this:
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I love this board. EVERYTHING here is about the Steelers.
I love this board. EVERYTHING here is about the Steelers.
No, actually, if the Steelers are mentioned it is because it is there fans who come on here obsessing about the Browns.
I can relate the entire history of 10 different leagues, 50 some different North American Sports markets, 150 different sports franchises.....and the only thing yinz wants to do is to complain about the listings contained within that entire compendium of data that deal with the Browns/NEOhio football history.
The myopia and paranoia are palpable.
Never fear....just because you are myopic and paranoid does not mean that people don't hate you and aren't after you.
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Endymion said:
Say the NFL decided when the current CBA is up that enough is enough. They are getting sued by every former player for concussions and the NFLPA is demanding way too much. So in 2020 the NFL just ends. The public will still want football, and eventually a new league will form, we'll call it WFL (World Football League). The WFL will have less teams than the NFL and will struggle for some time attracting an audience. Assume that eventually catches on, and reclaims the popularity the NFL once had about 10-15 years down the road. They have a championship game called the "Madden Bowl" and a trophy called the EA Sports Golden Pigskin (GP).
At first everyone will be like, this GP means nothing the Lombardi Trophy (LT) was the "real" item of value. Eventually, as the WFL becomes more and more popular, the historical LT will diminish in value and glory (that it holds now) and the GP will replace it. Like the LT, the GP will be the penultimate goal/prize in professional football. Super Bowls of yore will fad to distant memory. They will become an interesting footnote for a few franchises. As long as the Madden Bowl is played, the GP will increase in value and importance. It's what's of value now, even though there was only one definitive winner in the predecessor league.
The Browns victories of yore were a foundation for the leagues of the present, but those victories are not of the same value as a Super Bowl victory. The Browns also played and won at a time of competing leagues, further diminishing the achievement. Further, the leagues the Brown's played in were absorbed the current league, aka the NFL. While you may not like the perception, the perception is the surviving league was more important than the league that died, even if the league that died had "better" teams or played "better" football.
Wouldn't fewer teams created out of the same available player pool naturally create teams with a higher overall skill level at any time?
Wouldn't fewer teams created out of the same available player pool naturally create teams with a higher overall skill level at any time?
No, actually it wouldn't. If the NFL dissolved and a new league started, the new league would have less cash. The new league would not be a proven commodity so networks would invest less money into the broadcasts (see XFL). With less money, will come less interest from the most talented players (especially those who had big contracts in the now defunct league). Some people are born to play football, that's really all they can do. Those people will work for less and many of those types of players are not star calibre.
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Endymion said:
Say the NFL decided when the current CBA is up that enough is enough. They are getting sued by every former player for concussions and the NFLPA is demanding way too much. So in 2020 the NFL just ends. The public will still want football, and eventually a new league will form, we'll call it WFL (World Football League). The WFL will have less teams than the NFL and will struggle for some time attracting an audience. Assume that eventually catches on, and reclaims the popularity the NFL once had about 10-15 years down the road. They have a championship game called the "Madden Bowl" and a trophy called the EA Sports Golden Pigskin (GP).
At first everyone will be like, this GP means nothing the Lombardi Trophy (LT) was the "real" item of value. Eventually, as the WFL becomes more and more popular, the historical LT will diminish in value and glory (that it holds now) and the GP will replace it. Like the LT, the GP will be the penultimate goal/prize in professional football. Super Bowls of yore will fad to distant memory. They will become an interesting footnote for a few franchises. As long as the Madden Bowl is played, the GP will increase in value and importance. It's what's of value now, even though there was only one definitive winner in the predecessor league.
The Browns victories of yore were a foundation for the leagues of the present, but those victories are not of the same value as a Super Bowl victory. The Browns also played and won at a time of competing leagues, further diminishing the achievement. Further, the leagues the Brown's played in were absorbed the current league, aka the NFL. While you may not like the perception, the perception is the surviving league was more important than the league that died, even if the league that died had "better" teams or played "better" football.
Well, lets put it this way: You apparently are a football creationist. You believe the league was created out of the ether at a certain recent point in time that myth maker claim to be the origin. Your Adam was apparently Vince Lombardi, your Eve Chuck Noll.
I am a football evolutionist. I believe that football developed over a much longer period of time. There was life before Adam/Lombardi even if you fundamentalists want to ignore all the scientific evidence. Or, perhaps I am 4th dimensional, like the Shrike in the books you are named after. I am the future come to the past, and I am the past come to the future.
Whatever I am, be afraid, be very afraid :ph34r:
Well, lets put it this way: You apparently are a football creationist. You believe the league was created out of the ether at a certain recent point in time that myth maker claim to be the origin. Your Adam was apparently Vince Lombardi, your Eve Chuck Noll.
I am a football evolutionist. I believe that football developed over a much longer period of time. There was life before Adam/Lombardi even if you fundamentalists want to ignore all the scientific evidence. Or, perhaps I am 4th dimensional, like the Shrike in the books you are named after. I am the future come to the past, and I am the past come to the future.
Whatever I am, be afraid, be very afraid :ph34r:
No, I believe you are starved of championship glory and are looking for some way to feel better about a franchise that hasn't done very much since the NFL/AFL merger. You know your championships are lesser than those of modern era, but you find it amuzing to antagonize fans of other teams, especially fans of the Steelers. If the Browns had 8 Super Bowl championships as of today, you won't really care much about your ancient history.
I don't see how you can claim to be a football evolutionist. As an evolutionist you would recognize that things grow and change over time. Successful ideas stick around and become "tradition" and unsuccessful ideas die off and fade into obscurity. Your old leagues awards have gone the way of the dodo and fallen off the evolutionary chain. You are not from the 4th dimension, the cruciform virus has affected your thinking and you are stuck constantly trying to ressurrect your teams former archaic victories.
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Some of you don't know how close you were to giving the greetings "Bon Matin" or Ca va" today instead of saying "Good Morning" or "How's it going".......this illustrates how close you were to doing just that:
Everything west of the Appalachians including Cleveland/Pittsburgh/Detroit/Cincinatti/Chicago etc. etc. could have been talking French and playing curling instead of football if the English had not won the Seven Years War aka French and Indian War.
Some of you don't know how close you were to giving the greetings "Bon Matin" or Ca va" today instead of saying "Good Morning" or "How's it going".......
Everything west of the Appalachians including Cleveland/Pittsburgh/Detroit/Cincinatti/Chicago etc. etc. could have been talking French and playing curling instead of football if the English had not won the Seven Years War aka French and Indian War.
I don't buy this supposition. I think that if the French had won the French/Indian war we would be tea drinkers instead of coffee drinkers in America. Americans would've declared their independence from France instead of England and we would've enlisted the aid of the English instead of the French. Despite enlisting the aid of the French in our revolutionary war we still say all our greetings in English. However, the revolutionist brigands wouldn't have had a "tea party" in Boston harbor if the French were our oppressors. More than likely we wouldn't have "French Fries" as potatoes were a big export to France during that time period.
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The same argument steeler fans are using to discredit the Brown's championships (different time, different league, blah blah blah) can be used against the steelers as well. Free agency wasn't established until 1978. That's 2 Super Bowls (74 and 75) that don't count because it was a different time and leauge. The salary cap wasn't introduced until 1994, nullifying 4 Super Bowls (74, 75, 78, and 79) because, you guessed it, it was a different time and leauge. That's 4 Super Bowls discredited without taking into consideration medical and training advancements, progession of offensive and defensive techniques and strategy, as well as countless rule changes. Hell you can discredit the 05 and 08 Super Bowls due to rule changes alone. Now do I personally believe those championships, along with the Brown's championships, should be nullified? Not by any stretch, but the argument can be made both ways.
The fact of the matter is that the only Super Bowl that matters is the previous one and even that loses it's importance the second the upcoming season kicks off. At this point both Browns fans and steeler fans are clinging to past glory because neither won the Super Bowl last year. There is no disputing that.
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Well, lets put it this way: You apparently are a football creationist. You believe the league was created out of the ether at a certain recent point in time that myth maker claim to be the origin. Your Adam was apparently Vince Lombardi, your Eve Chuck Noll.
I am a football evolutionist. I believe that football developed over a much longer period of time. There was life before Adam/Lombardi even if you fundamentalists want to ignore all the scientific evidence. Or, perhaps I am 4th dimensional, like the Shrike in the books you are named after. I am the future come to the past, and I am the past come to the future.
Whatever I am, be afraid, be very afraid :ph34r:
No, I believe you are starved of championship glory and are looking for some way to feel better about a franchise that hasn't done very much since the NFL/AFL merger. You know your championships are lesser than those of modern era, but you find it amuzing to antagonize fans of other teams, especially fans of the Steelers. If the Browns had 8 Super Bowl championships as of today, you won't really care much about your ancient history.
I don't see how you can claim to be a football evolutionist. As an evolutionist you would recognize that things grow and change over time. Successful ideas stick around and become "tradition" and unsuccessful ideas die off and fade into obscurity. Your old leagues awards have gone the way of the dodo and fallen off the evolutionary chain. You are not from the 4th dimension, the cruciform virus has affected your thinking and you are stuck constantly trying to ressurrect your teams former archaic victories.
Endymion said:
No, I believe you are starved of championship glory and are looking for some way to feel better about a franchise that hasn't done very much since the NFL/AFL merger. You know your championships are lesser than those of modern era, but you find it amuzing to antagonize fans of other teams, especially fans of the Steelers. If the Browns had 8 Super Bowl championships as of today, you won't really care much about your ancient history.
ask the men that played in those leagues if the browns championships mean nothing. in fact you are wrong in every facet of this argument. history is history just because it didn't happen yesterday it doesn't mean it's forgotten. so if i were to say what your father and grandfather did (if anything) would you be upset if said said 'it means nothing'? how about the vets of war who gave their lives so you little pukes can wake up and say good morning instead of guten tag?
sure we as browns fans are pissed that we haven't done anything since then. but you just want to remember selective dates and times. how good were the steagles and the card-pitts when they first joined the NFL. HAHAHAHAHA! yet we came in and won the championship the first year after coming out of a league where we had won every title. but let's forget about that and just remember the 70's. so what it took you 20 years to get good?
read this and weep chump:
The Pittsburgh Steelers of the NFL first took to the field as the Pittsburgh Pirates on September 20, 1933, losing 23–2 to the New York Giants. Through the 1930s, the Pirates never finished higher than second place in their division, or with a record better than .500 (1936). Pittsburgh did make history in 1938 by signing Byron White, a future Justice of the U.S. Supreme Court, to what was at the time the biggest contract in NFL history, but he played only one year with the Pirates before signing with the Detroit Lions. Prior to the 1940 season, the Pirates renamed themselves the Steelers.
During World War II, the Steelers experienced player shortages. They twice merged with other NFL franchises to field a team. During the 1943 season, they merged with the Philadelphia Eagles forming the "Phil-Pitt Eagles" and were known as the "Steagles". This team went 5–4–1. In 1944, they merged with the Chicago Cardinals and were known as Card-Pitt (or, mockingly, as the "Carpets")
. This team finished 0–10, marking the only winless team in franchise history. The Steelers made the playoffs for the first time in 1947, tying for first place in the division at 8–4 with the Philadelphia Eagles. This forced a tie-breaking playoff game at Forbes Field, which the Steelers lost 21–0. That would be Pittsburgh's only playoff game for the next 25 years; they did qualify for a "Playoff Bowl" in 1962 as the second-best team in their conference, but this was not considered an official playoff.
In 1970, the year they moved into Three Rivers Stadium and the year of the AFL-NFL merger, the Pittsburgh Steelers were one of three old-guard NFL teams to switch to the newly-formed American Football Conference (the others being the Cleveland Browns and the Baltimore Colts), in order to equalize the number of teams in the two conferences of the newly-merged league. The Steelers also received a $3 million ($18 million today) relocation fee, which was a windfall for them; for years they rarely had enough to build a true contending team.
so it took a stipen from the league to turn your team around and make the rooneys more corrupt. way to go pittsburgh. class act all the way.
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Well, lets put it this way: You apparently are a football creationist. You believe the league was created out of the ether at a certain recent point in time that myth maker claim to be the origin. Your Adam was apparently Vince Lombardi, your Eve Chuck Noll.
I am a football evolutionist. I believe that football developed over a much longer period of time. There was life before Adam/Lombardi even if you fundamentalists want to ignore all the scientific evidence. Or, perhaps I am 4th dimensional, like the Shrike in the books you are named after. I am the future come to the past, and I am the past come to the future.
Whatever I am, be afraid, be very afraid :ph34r:
No, I believe you are starved of championship glory and are looking for some way to feel better about a franchise that hasn't done very much since the NFL/AFL merger. You know your championships are lesser than those of modern era, but you find it amuzing to antagonize fans of other teams, especially fans of the Steelers. If the Browns had 8 Super Bowl championships as of today, you won't really care much about your ancient history.
I don't see how you can claim to be a football evolutionist. As an evolutionist you would recognize that things grow and change over time. Successful ideas stick around and become "tradition" and unsuccessful ideas die off and fade into obscurity. Your old leagues awards have gone the way of the dodo and fallen off the evolutionary chain. You are not from the 4th dimension, the cruciform virus has affected your thinking and you are stuck constantly trying to ressurrect your teams former archaic victories.
Endymion said:
No, I believe you are starved of championship glory and are looking for some way to feel better about a franchise that hasn't done very much since the NFL/AFL merger. You know your championships are lesser than those of modern era, but you find it amuzing to antagonize fans of other teams, especially fans of the Steelers. If the Browns had 8 Super Bowl championships as of today, you won't really care much about your ancient history.
If the Browns had 8 Super Bowls, I would then count them as having 16 titles instead of just 8. I would count Northeast Ohio as having 21 titles instead of 13.
I mean, I count the Chicago Bears franchise as having won more titles than any team except the Packers franchise....yet they have won only 1 Super Bowl.
I don't see how you can claim to be a football evolutionist. As an evolutionist you would recognize that things grow and change over time.
OH, I do....but more importantly I would also recognize the source from whence they sprang...and I would recognize all the stages in the devolpment process that brought us to where we are today.
Successful ideas stick around and become "tradition" and unsuccessful ideas die off and fade into obscurity. Your old leagues awards have gone the way of the dodo and fallen off the evolutionary chain.
They haven't fallen off at all. They have simply morphed into what we have today.
If, in football terms, there are entities that have fallen off the football chain of evolution it is the likes of the WFL, USFL, XFL that have fallen off.
No, what we have here is a dinosaur that has evolved into a bird. Or perhaps devolved from a bird into a dinosaur. Instead of an elegant, beauteous thing that soars, we have a an all consuming, ravenous, grotesque predator that consumes everything in its path. No, I think the traditions of the early league(s) is still a bit omnipresent. Some of the greatest players/moments in NFL lore come from the early age.
I mean, just like today, they may make a movie called: Paul Brown, Zombie Slayer.
You are not from the 4th dimension, the cruciform virus has affected your thinking and you are stuck constantly trying to ressurrect your teams former archaic victories.
Not resurrect, simply honor and remember. Again, it is a simple ongoing tally that begins at the beginning, not halfway through the story. Somehow some Steeler fans want to make more of it than it is. It is a simple tally.
Is it a recognition of the frustration of what has happened to some teams? Sure.
When I report that The Cubs haven't won a title since 1908 it is both a recognition of that frustration and a sort of cheerleading for them to make it end.
At the same time it relates the drama of sports. A few listings to illustrate:
A. When I list the fact that the Arizona Cardinals have gone longer than anyone but the Cubs since a title, one cannot help but recall how close they were in 2008....within a minute and a decent defensive play...of removing them from the bottom rungs of that list.
B. When I list the Cleveland Indians as 3rd longest, one cannot help but recall the 1997 WS when they were within two outs of winning it all.
C. When I list the Texas Rangers as having not won a title since they originated in 1960, you can't help but think about how they were 1 strike away from it all last year.
There may be a few other examples of that nature.
If I have to list that the Lakers or Celtics or Yankees have won another title, it is a big bore, because there is no story or romance to those teams winning. It is ho-mum, wake me up when it is over time for the likes of those......but it was a hell of a story to see the Red Sox and White Sox and Blackhawks and SF Giatns and even the LA Kings break decades and decades of futility. Because today's events can only make sense when they are attached to history. It was a big fucking deal when the Steelers broke 40 years of suckitude when they won their first championship.. It was basically ho hum when they won in 2008 after winning in 2005. But...if they go the next 40-50 years without a title, it will be a big deal for them to contend for one in the future (that won't include you or I).
Sure, it is interesting right here, right now to watch the events being contested on the sporting fields of America......but it is far more interesting when viewed with the perspective of history...knowing that maybe a certain segment of frustrated fans could finally get a chance in the spotlight.
I am not trying to put the Browns titles in the spotlight....but neither should the lignts be turned out on them. They are like the Arc of the Covenant in Indiana Jones. They are put away in storage.....But that does not mean that they weren't one of the most awesome artifacts of human history.[/quote]
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Some of you don't know how close you were to giving the greetings "Bon Matin" or Ca va" today instead of saying "Good Morning" or "How's it going".......
Everything west of the Appalachians including Cleveland/Pittsburgh/Detroit/Cincinatti/Chicago etc. etc. could have been talking French and playing curling instead of football if the English had not won the Seven Years War aka French and Indian War.
I don't buy this supposition. I think that if the French had won the French/Indian war we would be tea drinkers instead of coffee drinkers in America. Americans would've declared their independence from France instead of England and we would've enlisted the aid of the English instead of the French. Despite enlisting the aid of the French in our revolutionary war we still say all our greetings in English. However, the revolutionist brigands wouldn't have had a "tea party" in Boston harbor if the French were our oppressors. More than likely we wouldn't have "French Fries" as potatoes were a big export to France during that time period.
Endymion said:
I don't buy this supposition. I think that if the French had won the French/Indian war we would be tea drinkers instead of coffee drinkers in America. Americans would've declared their independence from France instead of England and we would've enlisted the aid of the English instead of the French. Despite enlisting the aid of the French in our revolutionary war we still say all our greetings in English. However, the revolutionist brigands wouldn't have had a "tea party" in Boston harbor if the French were our oppressors. More than likely we wouldn't have "French Fries" as potatoes were a big export to France during that time period.
Oh, perhaps. Maybe Harry Turtledove can write an alternative history novel about it.
If we are going that route you must remember that it might not have been a "we" at all, but a "they". If the French had won that war....it is highly possible that there would be not one, but several nations that sit where America sits today. The English Colonies may not have even revolted....but even if they did and won Independence, they may have been faced with a separate new nation...French dominated, where Pittsburgh through Ohio to the Midwest and down the Mississippi to New Orleans are today. There would have been no Manifest Destiny for the US. The Louisiana Purchase would never have been made. Hell, Canada may have actually owned all that area....French Canada. Florida could have become a Cuba like nation, Spanish dominated. If Texas still revolted from Mexico, it could still be an independent nation today. California and Arizona revolted in the early 1800s. That area could have been a separate nation, as well as the Northwest. North America could in fact have been Balkanized. The South, the Confederacy, could have actually succeeded in their secession. You may have had an oppressive, racist, South African like nation in place there right through the 20th century.
It is interesting to speculate.
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The same argument steeler fans are using to discredit the Brown's championships (different time, different league, blah blah blah) can be used against the steelers as well. Free agency wasn't established until 1978. That's 2 Super Bowls (74 and 75) that don't count because it was a different time and leauge. The salary cap wasn't introduced until 1994, nullifying 4 Super Bowls (74, 75, 78, and 79) because, you guessed it, it was a different time and leauge. That's 4 Super Bowls discredited without taking into consideration medical and training advancements, progession of offensive and defensive techniques and strategy, as well as countless rule changes. Hell you can discredit the 05 and 08 Super Bowls due to rule changes alone. Now do I personally believe those championships, along with the Brown's championships, should be nullified? Not by any stretch, but the argument can be made both ways.
The fact of the matter is that the only Super Bowl that matters is the previous one and even that loses it's importance the second the upcoming season kicks off. At this point both Browns fans and steeler fans are clinging to past glory because neither won the Super Bowl last year. There is no disputing that.
The same argument steeler fans are using to discredit the Brown's championships (different time, different league, blah blah blah) can be used against the steelers as well. Free agency wasn't established until 1978. That's 2 Super Bowls (74 and 75) that don't count because it was a different time and leauge. The salary cap wasn't introduced until 1994, nullifying 4 Super Bowls (74, 75, 78, and 79) because, you guessed it, it was a different time and leauge. That's 4 Super Bowls discredited without taking into consideration medical and training advancements, progession of offensive and defensive techniques and strategy, as well as countless rule changes. Hell you can discredit the 05 and 08 Super Bowls due to rule changes alone. Now do I personally believe those championships, along with the Brown's championships, should be nullified? Not by any stretch, but the argument can be made both ways.
The fact of the matter is that the only Super Bowl that matters is the previous one and even that loses it's importance the second the upcoming season kicks off. At this point both Browns fans and steeler fans are clinging to past glory because neither won the Super Bowl last year. There is no disputing that.
Fair enough. As I have said, the only ones that matter are the last one and the next one. Everything else is history.
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@king-ghoolie-lives said:
Gipper,
MLK and JFK DO have more impact and meaning to people that are younger. Tis stuff was taght to them in history class.
OK, sure, there are events and people in history that resonate more than others. Certainly we remember Abraham Lincoln more fondly than James Garfield. Yes, they did not make a movie called: "William McKinley, Vampire Slayer". So, OK, MLK and JFK have more impact that do those other two. And certain earlier football players have more resonance than do other football players. I mean, people remember Jim Thorpe, Red Grange, Sid Luckman, Otto Graham and Jim Brown better than they remember Tuffy Leemans, Bruiser Kinard, George McAffee and Bob Brown....but all the latter ones are in the HOF as well.
As for the 1932 program being worth 10,000? To who. Nobody here would give you a shit ball for that fucking thing.
I don't know. I am not a "memorabilia" collector either, but trust me, the things that are the most valuable to the collectors are indeed the really old stuff. You are the one that brought up "monetary value", and I am just giving you the facts. The 1932 Championship game program is highly valuable. I doubt that the 2010 Super Bowl program has much value. I saw where a ball signed by members of the 1940s Bears was worth about $2000.00. I doubt that current balls signed by current players are nearly as valuable. Maybe 50 years from now the memorabilia from today will be worth a lot. But in monetary terms...older is better. I am just telling you like it is. It is the market.
I isn't disrespect for the past, man, it is proper perspective. That was a long time ago. It is in teh record books and who cares? I don't. It gives humanity absolutely no benefit. A current SB winner? Big difference, it gives a lot of benefit, monetarily and emotionally.
I think that I AM the one that keeps things in proper perspective. Again, I simply tally the results on an ongoing basis. I simply list who won what each year.
I calculated that when I do my championship listings, that there have been about 394 total titles awarded in the 4 major sports over the years. And yet is seems that it is only the 4 from the AAFC that the Browns won that people want to gripe about, not the other 390. Do you have anything to say about the other 390? I count each title once. A team that won a Super Bowl in say, the last 10 years doesn't get awarded 2 or 3 titles. They get one. The same for a Stanley Cup or WS. None of those gets counted more than once.
Paul Brown's teams would have been in the infirmary after One Quarter of Play with today's teams.
You know I think you underestimate their toughness. Do you really think that Marion Motley couldn't stand up to the defenses of today? He was as big as any RB today is. And if that group were to have the same benefits in terms of training facilities, nutrition, etc. that today's guys have I think they would hold their own quite well.
I am tired of defending teh Browns by digging up corpses that nobody cares about.
The Steelers are HISTORICALLY, and IN MODERN TIMES the better team and better franchise. More meaningful wins, more players in the HOF, more merchandise sales, more player recognition, mor fan respect.
In modern times, yes. But not historically, not overall. And I am not sure they have more HOF players. If they do, it is only by one or two more. The induction of OLD TIMER Jack Butler may have given them more. I would have to check on that.
And yes, winning begets all that other, basically meaningless stuff. Merchandise sales and player recognition, and FRAK followers. We agree the Browns need to start winning to attain all that...currently and in the future.
THAT's what I want for the Cleveland Browns. ENough of this old, meaningless, self-deprecating bullshit already.
I agree. But the fact that I list the past with the future in an ongoing tally doesn't mean we don't want current success. But, again, what I do I do for 124 franchises, not just the one. But yes, this is The Browns Board so that one is the one we focus on here.
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In checking on the Steelers vs. Browns Hall of Famers here is the following data:
The Steelers have 3 Inductees in the Coach/Admin/Owner category: Art Rooney, Dan Rooney, Chuck Noll.
The Browns have one Inductee in that category: Paul Brown. Of course, Browns fans have argued vehemently against having one of their former owners inducted....you know who. Fuck him.
And I was right about players: Jack Butler gave the Steelers the edge by one on players:
Steelers have 16 now: Blount, Bradshaw, Butler, Dermontti Dawson, Bill Dudley, Joe Greene, Ham, Franco, John Henry Johnson, Walt Keisling, Lambert, Stallworth, Stautner, Swann, Webster, Rod Woodson
Browns have 15 now: JB, Joe D., Len Ford, Gatski, OG, Groza, Hickerson, Kelly, Lavelli, McCormack, Mitchell, Motley, Newsome, Warfield Willis.
Both teams have certain "cup of coffee" players/admins...that I didn't count in the main stats.
Steelers had Blood McNally, Len Dawson, Bert Bell, Bobby Layne, and even Marion Motley
Browns also had Len Dawson for a cup of coffee, along with Doug Atkins, Willie Davis, Henry Jordan, Tommy McDonald.
The Steelers do have one probably future HOFer who was a finalist last year: Jerome Bettis.
They also had Kevin Greene whose chances are not quite as good.
The Browns didn't have anyone on last year's finalist list. But, you never know what the Veterans committee might come up with. Who could have predicted Jack Butler of the Steelers would have gotten selected over other former Steelers whom even their fans would have thought more likely to get in.
The Browns have a few like that perhaps in their history that could get in...but I am not sure who.
The Steelers probably have a couple of active players that have potential to get in: BR, Polamalu.
The Browns haven't had a player in 20 years that is likely to end up in the HOF, unless Joe Thomas keeps going as is....but truthfully, it is still early in his career.
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@king-ghoolie-lives said:
The only asshole that even remotely thinks Rich and I are one in teh same, is YOU.
You are a dumb fuck, a dimwit, a dimbulb, a moron incapable of telling the worldly different writing styles of Rich and I.
:lol: awww, ghoulie don't be mad. when i say go fuck yourself i mean it with all my heart and with the utmost disrespect.
it just amazes me that 3 people (you, rich and dick mellon) all have the same typo 'tick' or 'tell' in every post you right. like the word teh. either you all never took a typing class or your accordion-playing sausage fingers can't spread so wide. any analysist would come to the same conclusion.
and as far as your writing styles being 'wordly' different. yeah about as different as the colors aqua blue and turquoise.
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@king-ghoolie-lives said:
Hey cocksucker,
There are, ah, I don't know, maybe 50 people on this board who have met Richard Balestra, and Tommy V on many different occasions.
FOR INSTANCE...................
West Side Steve and I go back furhter than anyone. I have played on stage with him, and Stan listened in the audience. I consumed Irish Whiskey with him. They have both met Rich as well.
Just FWIW, I go back to the 9th grade with WSS, which would make it about the time the Super Bowl was first created. We are old fuckers.
The inaugural 1999 tailgate party featured a photo of me kissing Rich on the cheek. At that time, just as I kick your pussy in on this board, I was pretty tough on Rich. In the picture, the poor guy didn't know whether to punch me or go along with the fun. If you look at the photo you will see that for a second, his fist was clenched.
Roach has been to Memphis and met me and my wife, he has also met Rich.
You can also add to the people who have met both Rich and I seperately and together, Hoorta, Stan, KSHutchins, Chicopee John, Zombo,Furnier, and a shitload more.
The only asshole that even remotely thinks Rich and I are one in teh same, is YOU.
Perhaps he means that you are of one mind, not the same person? (though I don't think you two are of one mind)
You are a dumb fuck, a dimwit, a dimbulb, a moron incapable of telling the worldly different writing styles of Rich and I.
When I wipe my ass, I see you.
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@king-ghoolie-lives said:
Gipper, good conversation, let me hit a couple counterpoints without pasting them..........
Valuse of a 1932 program ------
Value has always been an issue that depends on the beholder. And THIS is where I will try to make a distinction regarding the Browns historical accomplishments. Understand, in principle, that is to say, core value, I put the same value on those historical records that you do....... Wellllll, kind of.
Let me elaborate with an example. The Giulietti ( Jew-Lee-Eddy) accordion is without debate, discussion or contender, the absolute greatest, finest, most beautiful accordion ever made. Bar none. Floren and Welk played Pancordion,s, Dick Contino played Excelsior, but the real Maestor's, the guys who could REALLY play, guys even more unknown as the ones I mentioned, for instance, the greatest accordion player of all time, Charles Magnante, quested for the Giulietti.
I own two, one-of-a-kind Giulietti's actually hand made for me that are beyond priceless to me. In 1995, I could have on a quick sale, sold either of these instruments for $25,000 - $30,000 dollars. In 2012, I might see them for the same, but with so few real players left (Polka players are hacks)the market of players who need and owuld pay $30,000 for one of these instruments has greatly dwindled.
Most of the players who have the skills to appreciate this instrument are at ages where their careers are behind them. Young players, can get a Chinese accordion for $600 and make some John Mellencamp type sounds and nobody knows the difference. Want a step up? Some ass clown in NYC just decided to name himself the Giulietti factory and will sell you a pices of shit for $3,500 that outwardly looks identical to my one-of-a-kind instruments.
Now, does anyone listening to my band on Beale Street know the difference, or give a shit? Nope. Does anyone notice a difference? Ahhhhh, yes, the producers and engineers who hire me as a side man have learned that in the stuio the richness of tone, lack of variance in volume produced by the bellows, truer tuning, less mechanical noise, less air noise, and expressive voices coming out of hand made reeds, makes better, sweeter, quieter recordings. As such, I get more studio calls than I can shake a stick at, and in spite of my shitty playing, I have found great success as a studio sideman putting tracks on everything form movies, to cartoons to commercials to training films.
I am proud of my accomplishments and of my beautiful instruments.
However, mention accordion and some dumb fuck kid will come in here and slam it, make oom paa paa references and tell me how lame and dated accordion is.
Does that mean all of that history, work and craftsmanship doens't have value?
No, not at all. What it means, and what me must remember is that those who recognize this value are few and far between and themselves dwindling minute by minute.
So too with old memorabilia, as those who value it grow less and less, and that has already happened, it is harder to impress that value upon people.
That is the problem we are dealing with in this discussion, but no matter how precious something in the past is, one cannot force it's value on young people.
Fair point. 90% of people would look at a Jackson Pollack painting and say it was child's play that any 3rd grader could duplicate, yet they sell for millions and millions of dollars.
It all goes to the market. If you were to put one of your classic accordians up for sale, 99% of the populace might say they don't want to bother buying it for any amount of money....but that small niche market still will bring you top dollar for it because of the competition within that niche market for that commodity.
On the other hand I see these things that come into the Antiques Road show/Pawn Stars/American Pickers all the time where the owners have to be told: "even though it is old and rare, there is just no market for your item, thus it is of little value".
On the other hand I see these guys paying like $3500.00 just for an old engine block from a Harley Knucklehead, and I scratch my head at how it can be worth that much....then I just think, that is the Jackson Pollack of motorcycle engine blocks.
The same for sports memorabilia. It is the market. You can have a bat signed in 1921 by some utility infielder of the Philadelphia As....or you can have one signed in 1921 by Babe Ruth....and the first though old and rare has little value, but the second is extremely valuable.
I guess the same can be said for old titles...these young people may not know their value, but to some they may be a Giulietti
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