Do you buy Bullying in the NFL?

DieHardBrownsFan

No, a realist. And shove the jackass comment.

Flyin J

@mark-o said:

Pretty short sighted and lame opinion to something that is a real problem for a lot of people.

I feel for the 12 year old getting bullied in school but if a grown ass man/professional tough guy is getting bullied and can't figure out how to stop it without going to the media and throwing the whole team under the bus then he is just a pussy bitch.

DieHardBrownsFan

XxDaBuckeyexX said:
I feel for the 12 year old getting bullied in school but if a grown ass man/professional tough guy is getting bullied and can't figure out how to stop it without going to the media and throwing the whole team under the bus then he is just a pussy bitch.

Didn't realize how many pussies frequent the Browns board.

Osiris

@the-cysko-kid said:
They didn't order him to treat Martin like shit. They ordered him to toughen him up. Obviously he went above and beyond. I'm not defending incognito. He's a douche. I'm condemning Martin as a soft, lazy, aloof, crybaby pussy who got a lawyer because his teammate was mean to him

Ordering a guy like Incognito to toughen anyone up is tantamount to telling him to treat him like shit. They picked the wrong guy for that job. I agree, Martin probably had issues that made him a poor fit for the team, but again, you have to deal with that like professionals. Either be smart about it like Chudizinski does for the Browns (by believing in them, challenging them to meet their potential, and inspiring them with visits from great past players like Irvin) or just cut the guy loose, trade him or release him. What you don't do is get a guy who is gonna call him a N***** and threaten to kill him.

Should Martin have stood up for himself? Absolutely, he should have, I know from first-hand experience it is the only language a bully speaks, and you do that, not only will they back off, they'll respect you, too. But Martin doesn't deserve to be bashed because he wasn't capable of doing that.

Flyin J

@osiris said:

Ordering a guy like Incognito to toughen anyone up is tantamount to telling him to treat him like shit. They picked the wrong guy for that job. I agree, Martin probably had issues that made him a poor fit for the team, but again, you have to deal with that like professionals. Either be smart about it like Chudizinski does for the Browns (by believing in them, challenging them to meet their potential, and inspiring them with visits from great past players like Irvin) or just cut the guy loose, trade him or release him. What you don't do is get a guy who is gonna call him a N***** and threaten to kill him.

That voicemail is not what Martin is upset about. Thats just how them guys talk. All of them. Its like me calling my friend a cocksucker. Do I actually believe he is gay or am I homophobic? No. I'm just trying to get under his skin or tick him off a little and I expect him to come back with something bigger.

jrb12711

A few things here:

To say a man can't have emotional issues and having some makes him a 'pussy' is extremely, extremely ignorant. Everyone has emotional issues, and everyone is built differently to handle them. That's why the issue of bullying occurs in the first place really. Work, no matter the actual job, should be an inclusive enviornment. What Incognito did clearly crossed the line of 'friendly banter'. I see a lot of people saying that because people are 'supporting' Incognito and others that means Martin is making this worse than it is. Honestly, why would anyone publicly support the guy given the circumstances? It's becoming a legal matter and to side with Martin implies guilt on the team.

Zombo

I did a whole "Who Ordered the Code Red" mock up, comparing the actors in a Few Good men to the Dolphin characters ... but it the pictures wouldn't post.

Anyhow, Dolphins Offensive coordinator Mike Sherman is a dead ringer for the guy that killed himself protecting Nicholson (Philbin)

Offensive line coach Jim turner ---> Keifer Sutherland character

Mike Pouncy ---> Lance Corporal Dawson

Richie ---> Private Downey

Zombo

The Cysko Kid

@jrb12711 said:

A few things here:

To say a man can't have emotional issues and having some makes him a 'pussy' is extremely, extremely ignorant. Everyone has emotional issues, and everyone is built differently to handle them. That's why the issue of bullying occurs in the first place really. Work, no matter the actual job, should be an inclusive enviornment. What Incognito did clearly crossed the line of 'friendly banter'. I see a lot of people saying that because people are 'supporting' Incognito and others that means Martin is making this worse than it is. Honestly, why would anyone publicly support the guy given the circumstances? It's becoming a legal matter and to side with Martin implies guilt on the team.

This is the NFL were talking about not some random office. If you can't take the locker room atmosphere get the fuck out. These aren't scholors. Theyre meatheads. They will always be meatheads and the day they're not you can keep your new pussy league where the tackles are now two handed ass grabs. I'll be done with it.

Flyin J

@jrb12711 said:

A few things here:

To say a man can't have emotional issues and having some makes him a 'pussy' is extremely, extremely ignorant. Everyone has emotional issues, and everyone is built differently to handle them. That's why the issue of bullying occurs in the first place really. Work, no matter the actual job, should be an inclusive enviornment. What Incognito did clearly crossed the line of 'friendly banter'. I see a lot of people saying that because people are 'supporting' Incognito and others that means Martin is making this worse than it is. Honestly, why would anyone publicly support the guy given the circumstances? It's becoming a legal matter and to side with Martin implies guilt on the team.

lol its not his "emotional issues" that make him a pussy. Its the way he handled the situation. Obviously the guy has been soft since he got to Miami or the coaches wouldn't have wanted hom "toughened up". IMO Incognito was trying to make him a better football player and a better teammate. If there was any physical abuse then I retract everything I've said but that doesn't seem to be the case. Handle your problems with your teammates in house, don't go crying to the media and mom and dad. It appears to me he was never gonna make it in the NFL and he dragged Incognito and the team down with him for monetary gain.

Mark O

@the-cysko-kid said:
This is the NFL were talking about not some random office. If you can't take the locker room atmosphere get the fuck out. These aren't scholors. Theyre meatheads. They will always be meatheads and the day they're not you can keep your new pussy league where the tackles are now two handed ass grabs. I'll be done with it.

A meathead who went to Stanford...

Just again proving your ignorance to the situation.

The Cysko Kid

Whatever Mark. You're being obtuse. You know the truth is that for every one guy who went to Stanford you have 50 Trent richardsons

"Pittsburgh is one of the goodest teams on the league"

jrb12711

Ignorance is bliss I suppose. The last thing I'll leave here is a quote from Doug Baldwin of the Seahawks. I think this sums up what i'm trying to get across here perfectly:

"A lot of people might look at Jonathan Martin and think that he's soft because he stepped away from the game, and say, 'Why don't you just fight him?'" said Seattle Seahawks receiver Doug Baldwin, who played with Martin at Stanford. "Well, if you look at it with common sense and being logical, what options did Jonathan Martin have?

"He could fight Richie Incognito. He could go and tell on the players, which we know in the football locker room doesn't go over too well. Or he could remove himself from the situation and let the proper channels take care of itself. And I think he made the intelligent, smart choice without putting himself or Richie Incognito's physical abilities in danger."

The Cysko Kid

Here's who was not pleased with Jonathan Martin: His team, his coach, the gm. Who else? And now he's going to sue them because they were mean. He'll never find gainful employment in the league again, and I think you guys defending him ought to go watch whatever is gayer and less manly than soccer. Watching male ballet dancers tiptoe around the maypole perhaps? I bet everyone would be nice to you there

jrb12711

@the-cysko-kid said:
Here's who was not pleased with Jonathan Martin: His team, his coach, the gm. Who else? And now he's going to sue them because they were mean. He'll never find gainful employment in the league again, and I think you guys defending him ought to go watch whatever is gayer and less manly than soccer. Watching male ballet dancers tiptoe around the maypole perhaps? I bet everyone would be nice to you there

According to the survey taken below nearly 80% of NFL players wouldn't want Incognito on their team while roughly half would welcome Martin on theirs. Being ingorant to the world around is worse than being stupid.

http://espn.go.com/nfl/story/_/id/9945888/most-players-survey-want-richie-incognito

The Cysko Kid

If you were 100% less ignorant you would have seen that I already stated that incognito went too far and was not defensible you ignorant ignoramus. God you're fucking ignorant

The Cysko Kid

You don't have to be defending incognito to think martin is a pussy who did everything wrong.

hoorta

@the-cysko-kid said:
Here's who was not pleased with Jonathan Martin: His team, his coach, the gm. Who else? And now he's going to sue them because they were mean. He'll never find gainful employment in the league again, and I think you guys defending him ought to go watch whatever is gayer and less manly than soccer. Watching male ballet dancers tiptoe around the maypole perhaps? I bet everyone would be nice to you there

Martin's GM told him to "punch Incognito in the mouth". Don't know how you interpret that, but legally it's assault & battery. Yeah, that's how to handle the situation.

Maybe he could have taken it one step farther and hit him over the head with a chair, or gotten really POed and shot the SOB.

VaporTrail

The only defense that Incognito apologists have is "Martin is a pussy." They're completely ignoring how shitty this makes the locker room.

VaporTrail

http://www.grantland.com/story/_/id/9939308/richie-incognito-jonathan-martin-miami-dolphins-bullying-scandal

Man Up

Declaring a war on warrior culture in the wake of the Miami Dolphins bullying scandal

By Brian Phillips on

November 7, 2013

PRINT

Iam here to start a fight, because I'm a man and that's how I solve problems. I'm not here to help you. I am here to fucking hurt you. That's what I've learned in my years as an NFL fan. You have an issue with somebody? You see somebody being stupid? You don't look the other way. You don't back down. You strap on your man boots and you shove it through their teeth.

Let me tell you how I know this. I know it because the NFL told me. Take the Dolphins. They suck, but they're still in the NFL. I'm telling it like it is; that's what men do.

The Dolphins have, or maybe had, a 24-year-old left tackle named Jonathan Martin. And they have, or maybe had, a 30-year-old left guard named Richie Incognito. Last week, Martin left the team to seek help for emotional issues. Then allegations emerged that Incognito had been bullying him. Hazing him, if that word makes you feel better. Threatening him. Threatening his family. Leaving him racist voice mails. Sending him homophobic texts. Here's a quick example, and I'm not bleeping out the bad words, because being a man means looking reality in the face.

Hey, wassup, you half-N***** piece of shit. I saw you on Twitter, you been training 10 weeks.

[i want to]

shit in your fucking mouth. [i'm going to] slap your fucking mouth. [i'm going to] slap your real mother across the face [laughter]. Fuck you, you're still a rookie. I'll kill you.

Incognito was suspended from the team Sunday. Over the next few days, NFL columnists rounded up NFL sources to opine about the only thing that matters in the NFL: warrior fucking toughness. The Shadow League's J.R. Gamble called Martin "soft." Giants safety Antrel Rolle said: "You're a grown-ass man. You need to stand up for yourself." Ex-Dolphins lineman Lydon Murtha wrote that Martin was a "standoffish and shy" player who "broke the code" and that "playing football is a man's job" of "high testosterone."Sports Illustrated's Jim Trotter spoke to a mean fleet of NFL types who all agreed that Martin was "a coward." One said: "I think Jonathan Martin is a weak person. If Incognito did offend him racially, that's something you have to handle as a man!" Another one said: "You handle it in house — fight, handle it on the field, joke about it, etc. — and keep it moving." Another one said: "I might get my ass kicked, but I'm going to go down swinging if that happens to me, I can tell you that."

Warriors make war on warriors. There's no room for crying in this game. You have a problem, you handle it on the field. Handle it as a man. Go down swinging. I hear you, NFL, and that's why I'm not here to move you or persuade you. If you have a penis and feelings, you'd better cut one of them off. I'm here to start a fight.

Because this — this idea that Jonathan Martin is a weakling for seeking emotional help — this is some room-temperature faux-macho alpha-pansy nonsense, and I am here to beat it bloody and leave it on the ground. Every writer who's spreading this around, directly or by implication; every player who's reaction-bragging about his own phenomenal hardness; every pundit in a square suit who's braying about the unwritten code of the locker room — every one of these guys should be ashamed of himself, and that's it, and it's not a complicated story.

Let's put some things in context, shall we? We're lucky in this regard, because it's actually fairly easy to put mental-health issues in context in a league whose retirees have a disproportionate tendency to shoot themselves to death. Former Chargers DB Paul Oliver is the most recent. He killed himself in late September at the ripe old age of 29. In 2012, four players or ex-players committed suicide in eight months, including 25-year-old Titans receiver O.J. Murdock, beloved Chargers icon Junior Seau, and Chiefs linebacker Jovan Belcher, who — maybe you vaguely remember this — shot himself in the parking lot of the Chiefs' practice facility after murdering his girlfriend in front of his 3-month-old daughter.

The plague of NFL suicides might by itself hint at the severity of the desperation many players seem to find below the surface of America's favorite TV show. And that might, in turn, argue in favor of extending some basic benefit-of-the-doubt compassion toward a young player who says he's struggling. But let's say you don't see it that way. You need more convincing, maybe because you're a man and you know that compassion is a lie invented to keep you from owning a Hummer. Fine. Let's squeeze into our thinking caps and keep going.

The brain is a part of the body. It's an organ. It's a physical thing. Sometimes it breaks. Sometimes it breaks because you beat it against the inside of your skull so hard playing football,¹ and sometimes — because it's unimaginably intricate, the brain, way more intricate than even a modified read-option — it breaks for reasons that are harder to see. Your ability to chortle "boys will be boys" doesn't mean that psychological abuse of the sort that Martin apparently endured can't widen that kind of fracture. But then, does the cause even matter?

Look at it this way: No one thought Joe Theismann was soft for leaving the game when his leg was hanging sideways. Sometimes the brain goes sideways, and when that happens, "brave" or "cowardly" shouldn't even come into it. Seeking help is just the practical thing to do.

Or look at it this way: Say Jonathan Martin had three children, two boys and a girl. Say the youngest was 2 months old and the oldest was 3 years old and they all died in a fire. Would you call him weak for missing some games over this? No, because you would understand that he was in unbearable pain, that he was literally crazy with hurt, and you would want to support him because, to your mind, the pain would have a valid cause. But what makes a badly suffering person incapable of functioning isn't the validity of the cause, it's the extremity of the pain. And sometimes — because brains break! — it's possible to feel as if your children had burned to death for no obvious reason at all. The ceiling is screaming, every pore in your skin hurts, the view in the window hurts, the idea of getting off the couch to close the curtains hurts, thinking five minutes into the future makes you feel like you're coming apart at the atomic level. You need help when this happens. Yeah, even if it means that the hardest men on the planet — Twitter users — lose respect for you.

I love football — it's so much fun, it's beautiful, it's thrilling, it's an excuse to drunk-tweet in the mid-afternoon — but it has also become the major theater of American masculine crackup. It's as if we're a nation of gentle accountants and customer-service reps who've retained this one venue where we can air-guitar the berserk discourse of a warrior race. We're Klingons, but only on Sundays. The Marines have a strict anti-hazing policy, but we need our fantasy warrior-avatars to be unrestrained and indestructible. We demand that they comply with an increasingly shrill and dehumanizing value set that we communicate by yelling PLAY THROUGH PAIN and THAT GUY IS A SOLDIER and THE TRENCHES and GO TO WAR WITH THESE GUYS and NEVER BACK DOWN. We love coaches who never sleep, stars who live to win, transition graphics that take out the electrical grid in Kandahar. We love pregame flyovers that culminate in actual airstrikes.

And of course this affects the players. Locker-room guy-culture is one thing; the idea that any form of perceived vulnerability is a Marxist shadow plot is something else. It's a human inevitability that when you assemble a group of hypercompetitive young men some of them will go too far, or will get off on torturing the others — which is why it's maybe a good idea, cf. the real-life military, to have a system in place to keep this in check. What we have instead is a cynical set of institutional fetishes that rewards unhealthy behavior. The same 110-percent-never-give-an-inch rhetoric that makes concussed players feign health on game day encourages hazing creep after practice. Don't believe that? I've got a helmet-to-helmet hit here for you, and that'll be $15,000, petunia.

I guess the nuanced line on the scandal in Miami is that a locker room is a complicated organism, and the aggression/affection dynamic between teammates is impossible for outsiders to understand.² Maybe that's true. But there are boundaries in locker rooms, same as anywhere else, and those boundaries are culturally conditioned, same as anywhere else, and they change with time, and they can be influenced. And it would be really good, it would be a really good thing, if the NFL moved its boundaries in such a way as to show some minimal respect for mental health. Not just for PR purposes, but because for as hell-bent as we seem on turning football players into gods without dignity, humanity doesn't stop the moment you strap on a Dolphins helmet. I don't know when football forgot that fact, but the evidence is overwhelming that it needs to remember.

There will always be locker-room assholes. They should be curtailed. And when a player says he needs time off for mental reasons — again: in a sport with a suicide problem — it shouldn't spark a national conversation on whether he's soft.

I am here to hurt you, so I'll also say this: You're a warrior, cool. What the hell are you a warrior for? I'm sorry if this makes it sound like I have emotions other than anger — I assure you that I don't — but tell me this: What's the point of being strong if all you stand for is abusing a suffering teammate? Those guys who taught me that when you see a problem, you step up and solve it, all those anonymous sources foaming on about how to be a man — is that what they think "being a man" is? I mean, nothing about protecting someone who's struggling in your big gender equation, then? Nothing about, like, knowing right from wrong?

Here's what I can't stop thinking: There were so many tough men in that Dolphins locker room. The unwritten code of football is that you handle your business in-house. Any one of these men could have said something to stop Incognito and help Martin. Any one of them could have handled it. They're warriors, right? They're paragons of strength. And yeah, there are complex reasons why they didn't. But they didn't.

The Cysko Kid

@vaportrail said:
The only defense that Incognito apologists have is "Martin is a pussy." They're completely ignoring how shitty this makes the locker room.

Once again I didn't defend incognito. You're going all cal here and saying "you don't hate gays? Marxist!"