What's Wrong With Ray Horton?
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Cool... maybe we can swap back to a 4-3 next year...
This from the "blog" bugged me...
-Injuries
The Browns defense has been healthy all season. They have lost zero full-time starters to the dreaded Injured Reserve.
Injury impact is the result of a lot more than IR nose count. How many games have we failed to start the same 11 on D? ... the same front 7?
We swapped from a 4-3 to a 3-4. Based on our early performance, both in Pre and early Regular-Season games, overall the swap went a helluva a lot better than I thought it would. But our 3-4 has never developed the cohesiveness it needs and I lay most of that at the feet of injury induced, constant line-up shuffling. Add to this that (with the possible exception of the D-line) we lack the personnel depth to adequately fill-in for missing starters and I think our slide into an "also ran" defense is understandable.
Well, as noted, had the Browns defense done its part the last 2 games, the Brtowns are still in the thick of the playoff race.
Just how "thick" is that race?
This from the "blog" bugged me...
-Injuries
The Browns defense has been healthy all season. They have lost zero full-time starters to the dreaded Injured Reserve.
Didn't coast back to see when this was written, but Desmond Bryant was lost to IR, Robertson, Sheard and Rubin missed games and nickel back Owens lost too.
Nobod team stays healthy all year, but I think he had a "normal" injury year on defense as opposed to our normal "Apocalyptic" year.
Zombo
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This from the "blog" bugged me...
-Injuries
The Browns defense has been healthy all season. They have lost zero full-time starters to the dreaded Injured Reserve.
Didn't coast back to see when this was written, but Desmond Bryant was lost to IR, Robertson, Sheard and Rubin missed games and nickel back Owens lost too.
Nobod team stays healthy all year, but I think he had a "normal" injury year on defense as opposed to our normal "Apocalyptic" year.
Zombo
Zombo said:
Didn't coast back to see when this was written, but Desmond Bryant was lost to IR, Robertson, Sheard and Rubin missed games and nickel back Owens lost too.
Nobod team stays healthy all year, but I think he had a "normal" injury year on defense as opposed to our normal "Apocalyptic" year.
Zombo
The article was written before the Patriots game and after the abomination of the Jags game, and then I updated it after Sunday's game. I just missed fixing that.
Regardless, that's the first full time starter to be placed on IR this season.
Two thirds of the defense has played in every game this season. No full time starter has missed more than 3 games, most have only missed one game.
It's a routine year for injuries. There's no way someone can viably pin the defensive struggles on that.
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What starters haven't played in the last five weeks?Cool... maybe we can swap back to a 4-3 next year...
This from the "blog" bugged me...
-Injuries
The Browns defense has been healthy all season. They have lost zero full-time starters to the dreaded Injured Reserve.
Injury impact is the result of a lot more than IR nose count. How many games have we failed to start the same 11 on D? ... the same front 7?
We swapped from a 4-3 to a 3-4. Based on our early performance, both in Pre and early Regular-Season games, overall the swap went a helluva a lot better than I thought it would. But our 3-4 has never developed the cohesiveness it needs and I lay most of that at the feet of injury induced, constant line-up shuffling. Add to this that (with the possible exception of the D-line) we lack the personnel depth to adequately fill-in for missing starters and I think our slide into an "also ran" defense is understandable.
Just how "thick" is that race?
Tank Carder is the only defensive player to be listed as "out" in any of the last five games. Of course there will be regular injuries, but for the most part the a Browns defense hasn't been bitten by the bug.
Every single team is going to have plays, drives, even games without starters. We haven't necessarily had to deal with it.
Good teams overcome. The Patriots lost their best receiving threat and still won 5 games without him.
It's a bad excuse.
EDIT: on the season, Rubin has missed two games. Sheard has missed three games. Robertson has missed one. Bryant has missed one.
Kruger has missed zero. Jackson has missed zero. Haden has missed zero. Ward has missed zero. Gipson has missed zero. Skrine has missed zero. Taylor has missed zero.
Seven of our eleven full time starters have missed zero games. The other four have missed, on average, 1.75 games.
We've hardly been touched by injuries.
Further, we have four quality OLB's, any one of which would start for most teams in the league. I'd say we have depth there. We lack depth at CB and ILB. Maybe FS, which is immaterial because Gipson and Ward haven't missed a game this season.
Every single team is going to have plays, drives, even games without starters. We haven't necessarily had to deal with it.
Good teams overcome. The Patriots lost their best receiving threat and still won 5 games without him.
It's a bad excuse.
Kruger has missed zero. Jackson has missed zero. Haden has missed zero. Ward has missed zero. Gipson has missed zero. Skrine has missed zero. Taylor has missed zero.
Further, we have four quality OLB's, any one of which would start for most teams in the league. I'd say we have depth there.
You really see a 3 down OLB in the pack? Really? Sheard and Kruger are both coverage liabilities and Mingo cannot stop the run. Ditto for our 200 lb wunderkind...
Haden missed the first two... not due to injury, but he missed them. But no matter since my intent was to focus on the front 7.
You cannot compare the injury impact on the Patriots to us. How long has the Patriots defensive system been in place? How long has ours?
When you are installing a system it's not just games missed... it's practices missed. You should know that...
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Haden's suspension was last year.
And as I said previously, I see 4 OLB's that can start for most teams in the league. Even Groves, who was a starter for Horton in Arizona. A team, I may add, that had a worse linebacker situation than Cleveland's yet was still productive.
Sorry, it's not an excuse. Implementing a system doesn't take 15 games. The system is implented pretty fully by the end of offseason and then a team can start rolling full speed, at the latest, by week 4 or 5. Things after that are just wrinkles and opponent specific shifts, stunts and coverage changes. Haden can go play for any 4-3 team in the NFL tomorrow and get 95% of the "system" by next Sunday.
You should know that.
This is just Browns fans looking for an excuse rather than accountability. It's like everyone is so happy to have an actual good coach in here that they'll give him as many passes as needed.
Fact of the matter is that the defense has been garbage all season, they've regressed statistically in many major categories, the red zone defense is one of the worst defenses in the NFL, two thirds of the defense has yet to miss a game, this is arguably the most talented coach and player personnel we've ever had and yet they aren't playing well. The coaching calls have been questionable to say the least.
I'm not calling for Horton's head. Nobody is. That would be stupid, he has the right scheme and right mentality for Cleveland. But we don't have an elite defense. Not yet. I thought we did just like everyone else until I opened my eyes and stopped living in a dream land. The defense is hardly consistent, and that's the problem. They are top ten in 3-and-out drives, yet they also top ten in percentage of drives ending in a touchdown. They either stop opponents immediately or they let them score.
I'm saying that, if this defense doesn't see marked improvement by this time next season, Horton won't have a job.
I'm awesome, and I fuck dolphins. Ghoolie 12/2/2012: I have absolutely no skills, training or pride -
I do disagree, here's why. This is cleveland. We're only gonna bring worthwhile coaches here if they see we're not shit canning coaching staffs after 2 years. A high profile team, sure...they can get rid of a guy after 2 years cause the top coaches all want to coach there. It sucks to say but because it's cleveland we have no choice but to put up with some brutal years cause not doing so continues this culture of losing. Instability at the coaching position is our #1 problem...more than at qb. People always talk about how many qb's we go through, well what's way way way worse is how many coaches we go through. We have a local guy now as coach, a guy that grew up being a browns fan. This place will matter to him. Not that he obviously can't go coach somewhere else, but he gives a shit here. Guys like fucking Holmgren need to be, and have been, drummed out of town. We need give Chud way more than 3 years dude. If the staff and FO feel like they have to make shit happen instantly, they make personnel decisions for the short term....and why not? THey don't care if they overpay a dude cause the salary cap situation years down the road may very well not affect them cause they'll be gone. That is the definition of instability. Chud needs to stay for years. Even if we have to slog through a couple sub .500 years. We need stability there like Pgh had when Cowhere was there for what, 12-15 years?
i've made your same point about other coaches in the past and they were out the door in 2.
either way it's not up to me. it's up to haslam. if he ain't puttin out a good product and he's not meeting his bottom line because of it, i don't see the chudnorvski experiment making it past 2015, if they don't show improvement. and to me improvement is at least a sniff at a playoff game. you know like 9 wins.
i've made your same point about other coaches in the past and they were out the door in 2.
either way it's not up to me. it's up to haslam. if he ain't puttin out a good product and he's not meeting his bottom line because of it, i don't see the chudnorvski experiment making it past 2015, if they don't show improvement. and to me improvement is at least a sniff at a playoff game. you know like 9 wins.
you want 9 wins next season? That's stretching it. We're gonna have a new qb plus a new RB corp. I'm happy with .500 ball next year if we keep shit close. However if there's some shuffling in the offseason cause some guys just aren't gonna cut it in the O and D schemes, than I'm fine with that and as long as they hit a HR in the draft and really get the guys they want....than I'm "ok" with a sub .500 season next year. It's a distinct possibility that this year was a test year to see which Shurmur ball leftovers would fit the new system.
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I would rather these guys build their own team for the long haul rather than shoehorn some misfits in just to win a couple extra meaningless games. If the North is even weaker next year than it has been this year, I still don't want to us ass end it into the playoffs just so we can get utterly demolished in the first round. When we make the playoffs, I want us to be legit.
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case in point I think that Mangini team we had in 2010 was better than the playoff team a few years ago with DA. We got lucky that year during the reg season.
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case in point I think that Mangini team we had in 2010 was better than the playoff team a few years ago with DA. We got lucky that year during the reg season.
case in point I think that Mangini team we had in 2010 was better than the playoff team a few years ago with DA. We got lucky that year during the reg season. [/quote
We haven't made the playoffs since '02, I believe.
DA never made the playoffs for us. We needed the Colts to beat the Titans in '07 for us to take the wild card, but they sat their starters and Jim Sorgi fucked us.
It's why I hate the guy.
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I would rather these guys build their own team for the long haul rather than shoehorn some misfits in just to win a couple extra meaningless games. If the North is even weaker next year than it has been this year, I still don't want to us ass end it into the playoffs just so we can get utterly demolished in the first round. When we make the playoffs, I want us to be legit.
I would rather these guys build their own team for the long haul rather than shoehorn some misfits in just to win a couple extra meaningless games. If the North is even weaker next year than it has been this year, I still don't want to us ass end it into the playoffs just so we can get utterly demolished in the first round. When we make the playoffs, I want us to be legit.
I think the AFC North will be stronger, including us but that's just IMO
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I hope not, because what you're saying then is that the Ravens and Steelers have hit rock bottom this year. I hope the suffering lasts longer than that.
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I hope not, because what you're saying then is that the Ravens and Steelers have hit rock bottom this year. I hope the suffering lasts longer than that.
Me too, but I think the ravens bounce back at least.I hope not, because what your saying then is that the Ravens and Steelers have hit rock bottom this year. I hope the suffering lasts longer than that.
Pittsburgh has some interesting issues of their own though with age, but they always draft well it seems. They're also at the point where they probably need to start grooming a Ben replacement.
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Haden's suspension was last year.
And as I said previously, I see 4 OLB's that can start for most teams in the league. Even Groves, who was a starter for Horton in Arizona. A team, I may add, that had a worse linebacker situation than Cleveland's yet was still productive.
Sorry, it's not an excuse. Implementing a system doesn't take 15 games. The system is implented pretty fully by the end of offseason and then a team can start rolling full speed, at the latest, by week 4 or 5. Things after that are just wrinkles and opponent specific shifts, stunts and coverage changes. Haden can go play for any 4-3 team in the NFL tomorrow and get 95% of the "system" by next Sunday.
You should know that.
This is just Browns fans looking for an excuse rather than accountability. It's like everyone is so happy to have an actual good coach in here that they'll give him as many passes as needed.
Fact of the matter is that the defense has been garbage all season, they've regressed statistically in many major categories, the red zone defense is one of the worst defenses in the NFL, two thirds of the defense has yet to miss a game, this is arguably the most talented coach and player personnel we've ever had and yet they aren't playing well. The coaching calls have been questionable to say the least.
I'm not calling for Horton's head. Nobody is. That would be stupid, he has the right scheme and right mentality for Cleveland. But we don't have an elite defense. Not yet. I thought we did just like everyone else until I opened my eyes and stopped living in a dream land. The defense is hardly consistent, and that's the problem. They are top ten in 3-and-out drives, yet they also top ten in percentage of drives ending in a touchdown. They either stop opponents immediately or they let them score.
I'm saying that, if this defense doesn't see marked improvement by this time next season, Horton won't have a job.
I'm saying that, if this defense doesn't see marked improvement by this time next season, Horton won't have a job.
Agree with that...
And had the Haden suspension dead wrong... I plead Senior moment.
But I still do not see our OLB's being coveted as 3-down players. Of all on our roster I only see Mingo having that potential*, but he's still a season and 10-20 lbs away from realizing that.
*Edit: potential for capability
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Bad time of possession by our offense, LBs can't cover anyone in space and no penetration in the 3-4
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Again I'd argue the blitz calls are pathetic and leave people wide open. Maybe I don't understand it well enough, but if I'm sending pressure I'm pressing my corners. I'm sure as shit not letting guys sit wide open in a zone scheme. At least five times on third down today we sent pressure and someone was wide open. I get once or twice, but every time? It just doesn't make sense.
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ok, i can't sit here and say i watched the game. had to go to a wake of a friend of friend. but before i left for that occasion 2 things were mentioned in the tavern that probably rang true throughout the game. one was the loose zone coverage that we were playing. i personally hate that scheme and think that you have to have some physical play from the line (cbs hitting the WRs) BUT in that time period there were 2 turnovers forced, one for a touchdown. so somethings are going right with this horton defense.
BUT anyone who disagrees that we should've never gotten krueger and that we don't need a CB (legit, no miss pick) you are fucking insane.
keep the coach. some of these guys gotta go or sit on the bench.
as for the offense. unbelievably bad from what i saw. 3 yd pass here. 4 yd pass there. what a fuckin joke.
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The 2 cb's we start are too small to get in the wr's face at the line. Especially against guys like the Bears have.
Haden is 5'11" and 190lbs. Skrine is 5'9" and 185 lbs. Marshall is 6'4" 230 lbs and Jeffery is 6'3" and 215 lbs.
Haden never hits the wr at the line. He lines up off him most plays, and when he does lineup right across form him, he bails at the snap. And Skrine does the same thing
Maybe that's Horton's scheme. But I would bet if Horton had cb's that are 6'2" 215 lbs, they would jam the wr's
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The 2 cb's we start are too small to get in the wr's face at the line. Especially against guys like the Bears have.
Haden is 5'11" and 190lbs. Skrine is 5'9" and 185 lbs. Marshall is 6'4" 230 lbs and Jeffery is 6'3" and 215 lbs.
Haden never hits the wr at the line. He lines up off him most plays, and when he does lineup right across form him, he bails at the snap. And Skrine does the same thing
Maybe that's Horton's scheme. But I would bet if Horton had cb's that are 6'2" 215 lbs, they would jam the wr's
The 2 cb's we start are too small to get in the wr's face at the line. Especially against guys like the Bears have.
Haden is 5'11" and 190lbs. Skrine is 5'9" and 185 lbs. Marshall is 6'4" 230 lbs and Jeffery is 6'3" and 215 lbs.
Haden never hits the wr at the line. He lines up off him most plays, and when he does lineup right across form him, he bails at the snap. And Skrine does the same thing
Maybe that's Horton's scheme. But I would bet if Horton had cb's that are 6'2" 215 lbs, they would jam the wr's
read my rant about corners in the other thread.
agree 100%.
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Campbell sucked today, and showed why no one really wants him.
"You planning on having a long relationship with that glass or are you going to drink it? Drink up, man. Maybe we can get another.” - Janis Joplin, 1970. -
Campbell sucked today, and showed why no one really wants him.
Campbell sucked today, and showed why no one really wants him.
He played well enough to not lose us the game. Our defense folding in the fourth quarter, again, is a key contributor to the loss.
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