"It's a passing league"

TheBrownBwner

@thenew23 said:

Genius. Pass the law, and it's Browns vs. Bengals in the AFC Championship next year... And, fast food sales triple across the state...

Not even pot can let Marvin get past the first round of the playoffs.

MasterDog

@hoorta said:

The more I watch of Manziel, the more I agree with that. His running style sooner or later is going to land him with a big hit in the NFL. Or scrambling around right into a linebacker coming at him full tilt.

There's NO ONE better at escaping presssure than M. Vick and the reason M. Vick never turn out to be a good passer or QB in this league is because of his 'freakish' physical ability. Instead of making the proper reads and going through his pass progressions, he will tuck it away and run. Yes, it's exicting, yes it 'can' move the chains, 'yes' you can win some games BUT in the long run he will not progress as a passing QB. His ceiling looks high but it really isn't.

I've been reading that 'Manziel' have the highest risk and the highest ceiling. That's pure BS and frabrication of folks that don't understand this new 'passing' NFL. The highest ceiling and standard in the NFL are the Payton Manning, Brees, Brady & A. Rodgers. Guys that can throw for 5,000 yards and 45+ TD a season with less than 30-50 rushing yards. Can anyone truly think Manziel could be a pure pocket passer like these 4 guys? No way...not with the way he runs around. His greatest ability will also be his greatest liability. And stop with this college awards stuff, College numbers means NOTHING in the NFL. The game is different. When was the last time a heisman trophy winner did anything in the NFL?

bbedward

@masterdog said:

There's NO ONE better at escaping M. Vick and the reason M. Vick never turn out to be a good passer or QB in this league is because of his 'freakish' physical ability. Instead of making the proper reads and going through his pass progressions, he will tuck it away and run. Yes, it's exicting, yes it 'can' move the chains, 'yes' you can win some games BUT in the long run he will not progress as a passing QB. His ceiling looks high but it really isn't.

I've been reading that 'Manziel' have the highest risk and the highest ceiling. That's pure BS and frabrication of folks that don't understand this new 'passing' NFL. The highest ceiling and standard in the NFL are the Payton Manning, Brees, Brady & A. Rodgers. Guys that can throw for 5,000 yards and 45+ TD a season with less than 30-50 rushing yards. Can anyone truly think Manziel could be a pure pocket passer like these 4 guys? No way...not with the way he runs around. His greatest ability will also be his greatest liability. And stop with this college awards stuff, College numbers means NOTHING in the NFL. The game is different. When was the last time a heisman trophy winner did anything in the NFL?

I won't disqualify someone because they won the heisman and heisman winners haven't had HoF NFL careers lately.

Most of the heisman winners are QBs, and good NFL QBs don't come out of every draft too often. (Last winner I'd happily take is Cam Newton)

Since 2010, QBs I like are: Mallet/Cam/Luck/Wilson/Foles/Kaep/Cousins.

That's like 7/51.

If you went back 3 more years, there's maybe 2-3 more with Matt Ryan being the best.

The odds aren't good regardless to find a QB who will be successful in the NFL.

And Vick is ok, but he can't play a 16 game season.

Apparently Ozzie thinks Bridgewater is a good prospect. That's good enough for me.

Tim Couch Pulls Out

@hoorta said:

That's assuming he shows up. Combine? I don't need no damn combine, I'm JOHNNY FREAKING FOOTBALL !!!! Or you forget he blew off Manning's Camp? If you're not concerned about off-field crap he's pulled, maybe you should be.

Or maybe you shouldn't be.

You're putting too much stock into a 20 year old Heisman trophy winner going out and getting drunk. Guess what? Every 20 year old goes out and gets drunk. He just does it better than everyone else.

You're crazy if you think he doesn't show up to the combine.

MLD Woody

hoorta

@tim-couch-pulls-out said:

Or maybe you shouldn't be.

You're putting too much stock into a 20 year old Heisman trophy winner going out and getting drunk. Guess what? Every 20 year old goes out and gets drunk. He just does it better than everyone else.

You're crazy if you think he doesn't show up to the combine.

I was yanking your chain about not showing up at the combine- but not about his (bad) off-field attitude. He blew off Payton Manning, I don't care if he had a hangover or not. The copyright stuff and other incidents warn me beware of a premature Fat Head. Might just be a severe lack of maturity- or maybe not. The short list of college qb party-hearties that made it big in the NFL start and end with Dan Marino.

Clevfan4life

@masterdog said:

We're dealing with the Baltimore, Pitts and Cin folks.

To win this division, we need players in the trenches that can beat the crap out of them.

exactly

Clevfan4life

@tim-couch-pulls-out said:

I'd gamble on a twice nominated and once winning Heisman trophy quarterback over a defensive end.

But that's just me.

I'm putting him in with Tebow but let's be honest, college qb's can very good than eat a whole bag of dicks in the NFL. I'm not saying Manziel will necessarily suck, IF he's there at #4...ok fine. But he's not worth trading up. If he's gone before #4, fine....I would stay at 4 and take either Clowney or Watkins. Clowney is a complete player. I would still draft him and convert him to a hybrid OLB if we stayed in the 3-4.....if we move back to the 4-3 it's almost a no brainer, we have to take him if he's there. I know we have alot to fix on the offense but we're in the AFC North, we need to keep the level of defensive play where it is or if possible higher.

Spectralcow

I started this topic (just for those who don't want to look back through the pages) and, at the time, I didn't intend it to be a debate about whether or not the Browns should take a QB in the first round or at #4 or whatever. For the record, I think the Browns definitely need to take a QB in the draft, and I wouldn't be opposed to them taking Bridgewater, Manziel, or Bortles (wherever they can get each respectively) in the first. I think people mistook me saying that there were teams who weren't dedicated ONLY to passing who were still having success in the NFL for me saying that the Browns should not attempt to draft a good QB if possible.

Oh wait, I AM against trading up from #4, though, if it costs the Browns any other than like a zillionth round pick. That's just insanity.

MasterDog

@spectralcow said:

Oh wait, I AM against trading up from #4, though, if it costs the Browns any other than like a zillionth round pick. That's just insanity.

No, i don't think we went off the topic with discussing the QB situation. We are talking about the position that will 'pass' the ball.

We must be insane to trade up to grab Manziel…then again, it's the Browns we are talking about.

miktoxic

i can't wait until the browns FO office does the unthinkable (like their plan to 'get it right' with their HC position) and does a dan snyder move to get manziel.

man it's hard to ponder. if he wows us and he can stay away from injury for the first year (cuz they have to play him NOW cuz they traded four of our picks) i'll be ecstatic.

BUT when the dude get's planted like a long rooted palm tree from florida and his career is over........

lord help you all.

hoorta

@miktoxic said:

i can't wait until the browns FO office does the unthinkable (like their plan to 'get it right' with their HC position) and does a dan snyder move to get manziel.

man it's hard to ponder. if he wows us and he can stay away from injury for the first year (cuz they have to play him NOW cuz they traded four of our picks) i'll be ecstatic.

BUT when the dude get's planted like a long rooted palm tree from florida and his career is over........

lord help you all.

You mean Lord help us all, every Browns fan on the planet. The only upside is it will get Lobotomy fired for sure.

Ice Dawg19 said:

Draft Manziel and the Browns will regret it. Texas, spoiled ass rich kid, will be in an entire different world in blue collar, cold ass Cleveland. He also doesn't fit the personality of Pettine's mental toughness.

Personally, I think Bortels should be the pick. He is the anti-Weeden. He constantly made throws with defenders in his face unlike Weeden, and he has leadership qualities. Watkins would be next in line. Guys who are dedicated and have maturity. When it comes to maturity Manziel has none.

Let's just hope one of the stipulations Pettine had on agreeing to coach here is he has significant input in the draft. Because no way he's going to want pussy poster boy as the face of the Browns. And if Haslam drafts him anyway- to bolster ticket sales (which would be marginal at best IMHO) he should quit on the spot.

miktoxic

if he's coming in as a puppet on a string just to bolster his resume, then he should make the best of it and show everybody what is happening inside and out and what control he does and doesn't have.

that way when they (rat bastard banner and the big loaf lomardi) pick against his wishes and everything falls apart, he will not be penalized in his search for future employment.

MasterDog

I 'cringe' everytime these talking heads on TV have us taking Manziel at 4 or trading the barn for him to move up.

The NFL is tailored to a 'passing' game. What is it with all this LOVE for Manziel? I've watched a number of highlights and majority of time, he's scrambling around and then throw one up or him taking off for a long run. This style of play has RARELY ever work on a consistent level in the NFL.

The current NFL is designed for a TALL, Big-Arm QB who spent end-less hours in the film room understanding defensives. Manziel has the biggest BUST potential and ALSO the LOWEST ceiling among the QBs coming out.

I'm also tired of his comparison to Russell Wilson. Why?

Because Russell Wilson plays behind one of the BEST Offensive lines and running game in the league. The passing game is so much easier for him because defensive needs to worry about Marshawn Lynch on every play. Russell Wilson also plays on a team with the BEST defense in the game. His job is to AVOID mistake and take minimal RISK. Would anyone really want a QB that throw for 3,200 yards and 26 TD with 10 INT, rush for 500 yards for the season? That's 200 yards passing PER GAME. Are folks REALLY going to be happy with a QB that can put up 200 passing yards??

No! I don't want a guy that throws for 200 yards a game and takes a number of hits so he can get 20-30 yards rushing.

I want a guy with the upside of 250-300 yards a game avg that gets rid of the ball quickly and accurately and avoids taking many hits or sacks. Give me a Flacco...a Big Ben...

Flyin J

@masterdog said:

I 'cringe' everytime these talking heads on TV have us taking Manziel at 4 or trading the barn for him to move up.

The NFL is tailored to a 'passing' game. What is it with all this LOVE for Manziel? I've watched a number of highlights and majority of time, he's scrambling around and then throw one up or him taking off for a long run. This style of play has RARELY ever work on a consistent level in the NFL.

The current NFL is designed for a TALL, Big-Arm QB who spent end-less hours in the film room understanding defensives. Manziel has the biggest BUST potential and ALSO the LOWEST ceiling among the QBs coming out.

I'm also tired of his comparison to Russell Wilson. Why?

Because Russell Wilson plays behind one of the BEST Offensive lines and running game in the league. The passing game is so much easier for him because defensive needs to worry about Marshawn Lynch on every play. Russell Wilson also plays on a team with the BEST defense in the game. His job is to AVOID mistake and take minimal RISK. Would anyone really want a QB that throw for 3,200 yards and 26 TD with 10 INT, rush for 500 yards for the season? That's 200 yards passing PER GAME. Are folks REALLY going to be happy with a QB that can put up 200 passing yards??

No! I don't want a guy that throws for 200 yards a game and takes a number of hits so he can get 20-30 yards rushing.

I want a guy with the upside of 250-300 yards a game avg that gets rid of the ball quickly and accurately and avoids taking many hits or sacks. Give me a Flacco...a Big Ben...

I think your way off base on Manziel. Not only is Manziel the best athlete out of all the QBs, but he may be the best thrower also. This article has the best explanation that someone posted in another thread. http://www.rotoworld.com/articles/cfb/45952/349/2014s-quarterback-conundrum

If youre going to compare him to Wilson, you have to do it from Wilson coming out of Wisconsin. Wilson was good but he was never great in college. Manziel has been spectacular in a tougher conference. Manziel is faster, quicker, as accurate, and his arm strength may be better. Coaches and players say hes a football junkie in the film room and hes very competitive. So now his only flaw is size and off field concerns. Id bet on him staying healthy enough, and keeping his nose clean before Id bet on fixing any of these other QBs flaws.

I dont even want to get into the whole judging a player from highlights thing....

MasterDog

XxDaBuckeyexX said:
Manziel is faster, quicker, as accurate, and his arm strength may be better. Coaches and players say hes a football junkie in the film room and hes very competitive. So now his only flaw is size and off field concerns.

Faster, Quicker in the QB position means nothing in the NFL. More accurate and arm strength is very debatable. College stats and performance means absolutely NOTHING in the NFL. He played behind one of the best Oline in College and also with one probably the most physical WR in college. He also plays in a spread offense that only requires him to make ONE read. There's going to be a big learning curve for this kid and i think his escape is going to be 'scrambling', taking off and running when he shouldn't.

Flyin J

@masterdog said:

Faster, Quicker in the QB position means nothing in the NFL. More accurate and arm strength is very debatable. College stats and performance means absolutely NOTHING in the NFL. He played behind one of the best Oline in College and also with one probably the most physical WR in college. He also plays in a spread offense that only requires him to make ONE read. There's going to be a big learning curve for this kid and i think his escape is going to be 'scrambling', taking off and running when he shouldn't.

I can tell youve never seen Texas A&M play...

bbedward

@masterdog said:

I 'cringe' everytime these talking heads on TV have us taking Manziel at 4 or trading the barn for him to move up.

The NFL is tailored to a 'passing' game. What is it with all this LOVE for Manziel? I've watched a number of highlights and majority of time, he's scrambling around and then throw one up or him taking off for a long run. This style of play has RARELY ever work on a consistent level in the NFL.

The current NFL is designed for a TALL, Big-Arm QB who spent end-less hours in the film room understanding defensives. Manziel has the biggest BUST potential and ALSO the LOWEST ceiling among the QBs coming out.

I'm also tired of his comparison to Russell Wilson. Why?

Because Russell Wilson plays behind one of the BEST Offensive lines and running game in the league. The passing game is so much easier for him because defensive needs to worry about Marshawn Lynch on every play. Russell Wilson also plays on a team with the BEST defense in the game. His job is to AVOID mistake and take minimal RISK. Would anyone really want a QB that throw for 3,200 yards and 26 TD with 10 INT, rush for 500 yards for the season? That's 200 yards passing PER GAME. Are folks REALLY going to be happy with a QB that can put up 200 passing yards??

No! I don't want a guy that throws for 200 yards a game and takes a number of hits so he can get 20-30 yards rushing.

I want a guy with the upside of 250-300 yards a game avg that gets rid of the ball quickly and accurately and avoids taking many hits or sacks. Give me a Flacco...a Big Ben...

Well a lot of his most impressive highlights are when he's out of the pocket. Might be what you're seeing.

My personal top QBs are Bridgewater, Manziel, Carr. Not a huge Bortles fan.

MasterDog

XxDaBuckeyexX said:
I can tell youve never seen Texas A&M play...

I've watched a number of their games.

MasterDog

http://www.sbnation.com/nfl-mock-draft/2014/1/9/5292616/johnny-manziel-nfl-draft?utm_source=sbnation&utm_medium=nextclicks&utm_campaign=articlebottom

This article is pretty much what all the Manziel folks want to see...

But it's EXACTLY what will not work in the NFL.

The first GIF was a good example. There was NO ONE near him. He didn't need to dance around, in the NFL he will NOT have that much time.

The 2nd Gif the writer wanted us to see. He took off but his head never looked beyond the first read. Number 38 on the defense did not attack him. I'm pretty sure he would had easily gotten caught on that run at the pro-level.

Again, everything is about running around and 'improvising', you can improvise when you take snap behind one of the BEST Offensive lines in college. In the NFL you have best 3 seconds....