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The Mobile QB Beat the Pocket Passer--New Era Born

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  • thenew23T thenew23

    Zombo said:

    Mobile quarterbacks: Not "new"!

    Z

    Right... Pretty sure Steve Young won a couple Super Bowls...

    @thenew23 said:

    Right... Pretty sure Steve Young won a couple Super Bowls...

    Funny thing about the mobile qb especially Steve Young. Young would never survive in today's nfl.(his running style). People forget being the best mobile qb ever came with a very steep price. What he have like 15 concussions? His career woulda been over after what 3 in today's game. Kaep, Wilson, and Newton will need to adapt. Hell Wilson and kaep both had less designed qb runs than last year and will have less next year.

    I'll take a pocket passer all day with the smarts to get yrds when everything breaks down. Stay in the pocket where it's safe and ur protected.

    Actually big Ben is more of where the nfl is going. Andrew luck and cam Newton is where u wanna go.

    "We are Americans. We don't quit doing something because it's wrong. We just keep doing the wrong thing till it turns out right." Browns maybe the most American Football team ever.
    Tour2maT 1 Reply
  • cdl15C cdl15

    @calfoxwc said:

    But despite Peyton being arguably the best qb ever? His yards per pass was 5.7. That's kinda

    telling, I think. And Denver only managed 1.9 yards per rush. Your right though, Peyton will

    probably come back again - but they need to beef up their secondary, and offensive line.

    Best ever???? That was ARGUEABLE last week. Now it's official. NO FUCKING WAY. Like I have said before he gets thrown in with Brett Favre and Kurt Warner category. Chasing Brady, Montana, and Bradshaw. This we know is true.

    Games 1-16 Best Ever. No arguments from me. But best ever is out of question for sure.

    @cdl15 said:

    Best ever???? That was ARGUEABLE last week. Now it's official. NO FUCKING WAY. Like I have said before he gets thrown in with Brett Favre and Kurt Warner category. Chasing Brady, Montana, and Bradshaw. This we know is true.

    Games 1-16 Best Ever. No arguments from me. But best ever is out of question for sure.

    Is Trent Dilfer a better QB than Dan Marino then?

    This ringss judgement on QBs is from the 80s and needs to be put to bed once and for all.

    Manning is twice the QB Tom Brady is

    cdl15C 1 Reply

  • So if the browns had the opportunity to draft a 22 year old Peyton Manning or a 22 yr old Russell Wilson in this next draft which one would you want? All other things being equal of course.

    WSS

    www.westsidesteve.com www.myspace.com/westsidestevemusic www.cdbaby.com/artist/westsidestevesimmons
    Z bbedwardB 2 Replies
  • Tim Couch Pulls OutT Tim Couch Pulls Out

    @unsympathetic said:

    The thread title should read: The team with the best DL and OL won. Everything else is secondary to that.

    Pats had the best OL in football during all their title years. Same with Dallas in their day, Baltimore, TB, etc.

    The only WR in Seattle who was truly a game-changer was Harvin, and he touched the ball once all season.. everyone else was league average, especially Doug Baldwin who was undrafted but led the Seahawks in receiving with 5/66/1 TD.. baldwin was also the hawks 2nd leading receiver during the year.

    Hawks have a great secondary yes, but those guys were all mid-late round picks except Earl Thomas. Chancellor 5, Sherman 5, brandon browner who was suspended last night was undrafted. So in browner's place they started byron maxwell who was a 5, and signed Walter Thurmond (4th round) as a street FA in late december to replace browner.

    Earl Thomas in the first round completed the D, he didn't start it. Just like Jerry Rice completed the Niners O, he didn't start it.. the year before Rice was drafted, the 49ers made the NFCtitle game with Roger Craig their leading receiver.

    OL and DL (and, now, LB) is the winning formula.

    Except that's completely wrong.

    Denver finished 8th overall in offensive line run block production, Seattle 9th.

    Denver's offensive line finished 17th in power run ranking (Successes on 3rd/4th and short, 1st/2nd and goal to go). Seattle finished 32nd.

    Denver's offensive line finished 1st (least percentage) in runs stopped behind the line of scrimmage. Seattle finished 15th.

    Denver's offensive lined finished 4th in second level yards gained, Seattle finished 13th.

    Denver's offensive line finished 20th in getting their running back into the open field, Seattle finished 23rd.

    Denver finished 1st in pass protection, with an adjusted sack percentage of 3.7%.

    Seattle finished 32nd in pass protection, with an adjusted sack percentage of 9.6%

    Denver's offensive line, in every single measurable statistic of offensive lines, was markedly better than Seattle's.

    Furthermore:

    Denver's defensive line finished 3rd in overall rushing defense. Seattle's 13th.

    Denver's defensive line finished 13th in power run ranking, Seattle finished 24th.

    Denver's defensive line finished 9th in stuffed runs, Seattle finished 11th.

    Denver's defensive line finished 9th in second level runs allowed, Seattle finished 11th.

    The only thing Seattle's defensive line beat Denver's defensive line in is sacks, getting 3 more sacks on the year.

    Seattle just played better football, that's how you win the game. Denver was better on paper, but Seattle was better on the field.

    @tim-couch-pulls-out said:

    Except that's completely wrong.

    Denver finished 8th overall in offensive line run block production, Seattle 9th.

    Denver's offensive line finished 17th in power run ranking (Successes on 3rd/4th and short, 1st/2nd and goal to go). Seattle finished 32nd.

    Denver's offensive line finished 1st (least percentage) in runs stopped behind the line of scrimmage. Seattle finished 15th.

    Denver's offensive lined finished 4th in second level yards gained, Seattle finished 13th.

    Denver's offensive line finished 20th in getting their running back into the open field, Seattle finished 23rd.

    Denver finished 1st in pass protection, with an adjusted sack percentage of 3.7%.

    Seattle finished 32nd in pass protection, with an adjusted sack percentage of 9.6%

    Denver's offensive line, in every single measurable statistic of offensive lines, was markedly better than Seattle's.

    Denver's defensive line finished 3rd in overall rushing defense. Seattle's 13th.

    Denver's defensive line finished 13th in power run ranking, Seattle finished 24th.

    Denver's defensive line finished 9th in stuffed runs, Seattle finished 11th.

    Denver's defensive line finished 9th in second level runs allowed, Seattle finished 11th.

    Not so fast my friend...

    Great collection of stats, but they do not exist in a vacuum...

    I'd love to find a stat on "Percent of time team played with the lead", but not finding it. I think it would explain some of the differences you generated. We've had this discussion before. The scoreboard dictates how much an opponent runs influences broad catagories like "overall rushing defense".

    I am sure that the contrasting offensive approaches (Denver's pass first vs. Seattle's run first) of the two SB teams explains a fair amount of the runs stopped behind the O-line.

    • Denver ran a league leading 1156 total offensive plays; Seattle was 29th with 973.
    • Denver rushed 461 times (11th in the league) or 39.9% ; Seattle rushed 509 times (2nd in the league) or 52.3%.
    • By difference Denver passed 695 times; Seattle 464 times.

    I've no doubt Ds had to honor the pass more against Denver in 3rd and short situations.

    I am sure that WR quality and scheme explains the sack differences. Peyton simply does not hold the ball; Wilson holds the ball. Their difference may not be as dramatic as Hoyer vs. Wheezy, but...

    And on and on and on...

    Bottom line: There are many reasons why your stat collection fails to certify the clear superiority of Denver's lines to Seattle's lines to the degree that you apparently feel they do.

    @calfoxwc said:

    ... Denver's offensive line ... (is) used to "omaha" etc.

    It was nice not hearing that the entire game...

    @bbedward said:

    Manziels definitely a little more wreckless running the ball. At least as far as tucking it and sliding. The good news is those issues are pretty fixable. so I don't judge him on that alone.

    Wreckless is a good word for what JF does. As I've repeatedly said, his competitive fire simply fogs his judgement and gets him into situations that he survived at A&M, but will not at the next level.

    Pretty fixable? Leg irons? A lot can be "fixed " on a practice field (or driving range) that come s back out under pressure.

    @calfoxwc said:

    Exactly - the NFL is a man's game, and a lot of work ethic is required.

    Manziel could turn out to be locked in to what he is in college - a spectacular improviser.

    Work ethic is not an issue with Manziel from what I've heard. He loves the film room.

    Not sure if "spectacular improviser" is a good or a bad thing...

    "When you have a shared vision it is a lot easier to make unpopular decisions." - Paul DePodesta "When you win, say nothing. When you lose, say less." - Paul Brown Complete 2017 Browns Board Mock: http://thebrownsboard.com/forums/index.php?showtopic=46196
  • cdl15C cdl15

    @thenew23 said:

    Right... Pretty sure Steve Young won a couple Super Bowls...

    Funny thing about the mobile qb especially Steve Young. Young would never survive in today's nfl.(his running style). People forget being the best mobile qb ever came with a very steep price. What he have like 15 concussions? His career woulda been over after what 3 in today's game. Kaep, Wilson, and Newton will need to adapt. Hell Wilson and kaep both had less designed qb runs than last year and will have less next year.

    I'll take a pocket passer all day with the smarts to get yrds when everything breaks down. Stay in the pocket where it's safe and ur protected.

    Actually big Ben is more of where the nfl is going. Andrew luck and cam Newton is where u wanna go.

    @cdl15 said:

    Funny thing about the mobile qb especially Steve Young. Young would never survive in today's nfl.(his running style).

    Actually, as you alluded to in the rest of your post, he did not survive in his era...

    @westside-steve said:

    So if the browns had the opportunity to draft a 22 year old Peyton Manning or a 22 yr old Russell Wilson in this next draft which one would you want? All other things being equal of course.

    Smart question...

    "When you have a shared vision it is a lot easier to make unpopular decisions." - Paul DePodesta "When you win, say nothing. When you lose, say less." - Paul Brown Complete 2017 Browns Board Mock: http://thebrownsboard.com/forums/index.php?showtopic=46196
  • W Westside Steve

    So if the browns had the opportunity to draft a 22 year old Peyton Manning or a 22 yr old Russell Wilson in this next draft which one would you want? All other things being equal of course.

    WSS

    @westside-steve said:

    So if the browns had the opportunity to draft a 22 year old Peyton Manning or a 22 yr old Russell Wilson in this next draft which one would you want? All other things being equal of course.

    WSS

    I would draft a 22 year old Manning over any player in NFL history.

    15 years of winning and contending sounds really good right now.

    Z

  • L LondonBrown

    @cdl15 said:

    Best ever???? That was ARGUEABLE last week. Now it's official. NO FUCKING WAY. Like I have said before he gets thrown in with Brett Favre and Kurt Warner category. Chasing Brady, Montana, and Bradshaw. This we know is true.

    Games 1-16 Best Ever. No arguments from me. But best ever is out of question for sure.

    Is Trent Dilfer a better QB than Dan Marino then?

    This ringss judgement on QBs is from the 80s and needs to be put to bed once and for all.

    Manning is twice the QB Tom Brady is

    @londonbrown said:

    Manning is twice the QB Tom Brady is

    ur completely a ratard if u believe that. Got some facts
    "We are Americans. We don't quit doing something because it's wrong. We just keep doing the wrong thing till it turns out right." Browns maybe the most American Football team ever.
    L 1 Reply
  • W Westside Steve

    So if the browns had the opportunity to draft a 22 year old Peyton Manning or a 22 yr old Russell Wilson in this next draft which one would you want? All other things being equal of course.

    WSS

    @westside-steve said:

    So if the browns had the opportunity to draft a 22 year old Peyton Manning or a 22 yr old Russell Wilson in this next draft which one would you want? All other things being equal of course.

    WSS

    I think Seattle themselves would draft a 22yo Manning at this point. Wilson's career is just beginning though.

  • I'd take a 22 yr old Brady and Montana over anyone in the superbowl era since these two r ARGUEABLE the best two of their respected eras.

    "We are Americans. We don't quit doing something because it's wrong. We just keep doing the wrong thing till it turns out right." Browns maybe the most American Football team ever.
  • cdl15C cdl15

    @londonbrown said:

    Manning is twice the QB Tom Brady is

    ur completely a ratard if u believe that. Got some facts

    @cdl15 said:

    ur completely a ratard if u believe that. Got some facts

    Put him in that NE team with Belichik and they win more then zero superbowls sicne Spygate

    cdl15C bbedwardB 2 Replies
  • L LondonBrown

    @cdl15 said:

    ur completely a ratard if u believe that. Got some facts

    Put him in that NE team with Belichik and they win more then zero superbowls sicne Spygate

    @londonbrown said:

    Put him in that NE team with Belichik and they win more then zero superbowls sicne Spygate

    can't use a hypothetical to make ur point. What Brady did this year with the least amount of talent either two Qbs have ever had is completely amazing. Brady went to afc championship game with nobody. Peyton had a record setting year and didn't win it all with the most talented team he's ever had on both sides of the ball.

    Put Brady with those offensive juggernauts Manning had yr after yr and brady has more than 1 superbowl for a career.

    "We are Americans. We don't quit doing something because it's wrong. We just keep doing the wrong thing till it turns out right." Browns maybe the most American Football team ever.
  • L LondonBrown

    @cdl15 said:

    ur completely a ratard if u believe that. Got some facts

    Put him in that NE team with Belichik and they win more then zero superbowls sicne Spygate

    @londonbrown said:

    Put him in that NE team with Belichik and they win more then zero superbowls sicne Spygate

    Hard to make claims like that 😉

    It's hard to pick between Brady and Manning. Both are incredible quarterbacks. I mean, if you put all of Denver's weapons on NE Brady probably would have had a record setting season too.

    You put Denver's weapons with a guy like Kaepernick, Wilson, Flacco, Ben, etc. I don't think those guys break the records - but their offenses sure get a lot better.

    I mean Manning made a backup offensive line look like studs most of the season. That takes a great QB.

    Regardless...Peyton and Brady will go down as two of the greatest to ever play the position. Better than anything we, or most teams, have had in the modern era of the NFL.

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