The Mobile QB Beat the Pocket Passer--New Era Born
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Not really. In the NFL, he won't get away with that kind of cutting - the talent level
is far higher across the board for him to get away with it like he did in college.
It's a concern.
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Employees who LOVE whatever they do for a living helps any business succeed.
Speaking of which... despite Peyton setting a SB record for completions (yup, he did), I do not see him "going out" on this game. He loves it too much.Tour
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Yeah, he sure did complete em...he's a brilliant qb. And he loves it. Amazing - and maybe he might
stay one more year. Or maybe he was playing hurt or something. But he does need some offensive linemen,
and more than Welker to beat the likes of Seattle, a team with no weaknesses at all. It would be ironic
to have him eventually retire, and take a qb coaching/fo job with Elway and the Broncos, eh?
But despite Peyton being arguably the best qb ever? His yards per pass was 5.7. That's kinda
telling, I think. And Denver only managed 1.9 yards per rush. Your right though, Peyton will
probably come back again - but they need to beef up their secondary, and offensive line.
It would be ironic to have him eventually retire, and take a qb coaching/fo job with Elway and the Broncos, eh?
I have a feeling Peyton's next stop is either a broadcast booth (MNF?) or studio. After that it'll be Canton... then maybe coaching.
I wouldn't include Tom Brady. He has tremendous pocket awareness, but that's where his elusiveness stops. Rodgers, however, is an apt comparison.
All you need is a quarterback who's mobile enough to extend plays, a la Roethlisberger and Wilson.
I believe Bortles is more than mobile enough to elude rushers, as is Manziel.
Agree on Brady.... one of the knocks on him in the draft was how slow afoot he was. He ran a 5.28 40 at the 2000 combine.
Big Ben is the odd duck, adding strength into the mix.
Completely agree on Bortles. When I started watching Bortles I could not believe how fast he was.
Best ever???? That was ARGUEABLE last week. Now it's official. NO FUCKING WAY.
Still in the argument as far as I am concerned. Peyton's just in that "physically diminished" phase now. Most of the great QB end up there.
"When you have a shared vision it is a lot easier to make unpopular decisions." - Paul DePodesta "When you win, say nothing. When you lose, say less." - Paul Brown Complete 2017 Browns Board Mock: http://thebrownsboard.com/forums/index.php?showtopic=46196 -
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Good Lord, just pull up a YouTube of Manzel- and tell me with a straight face you don't see extreme cutting, Hell, watching his footwork on the first video I pulled up, I'm surprised he hasn't blown out a knee yet with no hit. We're talking Erick Metcalf level dancing.
Extreme cutting?
Okay.
"Hey, Haslam. This is your scouting department. We're not comfortable taking Manziel. Yeah, the guy just cuts way too hard. I'm talking extreme cutting. We'd feel more comfortable with a guy who just runs into contact or, better yet, just falls and turtles whenever a defender gets within five yards. Better to save those knees than get yards."
That is literally the dumbest thing I've heard on here in a long time.
We'd feel more comfortable with a guy who just falls and turtles whenever a defender gets within five yards. Better to save those knees than get yards."
That is literally the dumbest thing I've heard on here in a long time.
Tell that to Peyton Manning. No the dumbest thing is you refusing to admit the same thing other guys here are seeing- Manziel's running style puts him at an above average risk of a serious knee injury. .
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It would be ironic to have him eventually retire, and take a qb coaching/fo job with Elway and the Broncos, eh?
I have a feeling Peyton's next stop is either a broadcast booth (MNF?) or studio. After that it'll be Canton... then maybe coaching.
I wouldn't include Tom Brady. He has tremendous pocket awareness, but that's where his elusiveness stops. Rodgers, however, is an apt comparison.
All you need is a quarterback who's mobile enough to extend plays, a la Roethlisberger and Wilson.
I believe Bortles is more than mobile enough to elude rushers, as is Manziel.
Agree on Brady.... one of the knocks on him in the draft was how slow afoot he was. He ran a 5.28 40 at the 2000 combine.
Big Ben is the odd duck, adding strength into the mix.
Completely agree on Bortles. When I started watching Bortles I could not believe how fast he was.
Best ever???? That was ARGUEABLE last week. Now it's official. NO FUCKING WAY.
Still in the argument as far as I am concerned. Peyton's just in that "physically diminished" phase now. Most of the great QB end up there.
up there with Favre and Warner period. No better no worse.I have a feeling Peyton's next stop is either a broadcast booth (MNF?) or studio. After that it'll be Canton... then maybe coaching.
Agree on Brady.... one of the knocks on him in the draft was how slow afoot he was. He ran a 5.28 40 at the 2000 combine.
Big Ben is the odd duck, adding strength into the mix.
Completely agree on Bortles. When I started watching Bortles I could not believe how fast he was.
Still in the argument as far as I am concerned. Peyton's just in that "physically diminished" phase now. Most of the great QB end up there.
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Zombo said:
Mobile quarterbacks: Not "new"!
Z
Right... Pretty sure Steve Young won a couple Super Bowls...
Funny thing about the mobile qb especially Steve Young. Young would never survive in today's nfl.(his running style). People forget being the best mobile qb ever came with a very steep price. What he have like 15 concussions? His career woulda been over after what 3 in today's game. Kaep, Wilson, and Newton will need to adapt. Hell Wilson and kaep both had less designed qb runs than last year and will have less next year.Right... Pretty sure Steve Young won a couple Super Bowls...
I'll take a pocket passer all day with the smarts to get yrds when everything breaks down. Stay in the pocket where it's safe and ur protected.
Actually big Ben is more of where the nfl is going. Andrew luck and cam Newton is where u wanna go.
"We are Americans. We don't quit doing something because it's wrong. We just keep doing the wrong thing till it turns out right." Browns maybe the most American Football team ever. -
But despite Peyton being arguably the best qb ever? His yards per pass was 5.7. That's kinda
telling, I think. And Denver only managed 1.9 yards per rush. Your right though, Peyton will
probably come back again - but they need to beef up their secondary, and offensive line.
Best ever???? That was ARGUEABLE last week. Now it's official. NO FUCKING WAY. Like I have said before he gets thrown in with Brett Favre and Kurt Warner category. Chasing Brady, Montana, and Bradshaw. This we know is true.
Games 1-16 Best Ever. No arguments from me. But best ever is out of question for sure.
Best ever???? That was ARGUEABLE last week. Now it's official. NO FUCKING WAY. Like I have said before he gets thrown in with Brett Favre and Kurt Warner category. Chasing Brady, Montana, and Bradshaw. This we know is true.
Games 1-16 Best Ever. No arguments from me. But best ever is out of question for sure.
Is Trent Dilfer a better QB than Dan Marino then?
This ringss judgement on QBs is from the 80s and needs to be put to bed once and for all.
Manning is twice the QB Tom Brady is
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So if the browns had the opportunity to draft a 22 year old Peyton Manning or a 22 yr old Russell Wilson in this next draft which one would you want? All other things being equal of course.
WSS
www.westsidesteve.com www.myspace.com/westsidestevemusic www.cdbaby.com/artist/westsidestevesimmons -
The thread title should read: The team with the best DL and OL won. Everything else is secondary to that.
Pats had the best OL in football during all their title years. Same with Dallas in their day, Baltimore, TB, etc.
The only WR in Seattle who was truly a game-changer was Harvin, and he touched the ball once all season.. everyone else was league average, especially Doug Baldwin who was undrafted but led the Seahawks in receiving with 5/66/1 TD.. baldwin was also the hawks 2nd leading receiver during the year.
Hawks have a great secondary yes, but those guys were all mid-late round picks except Earl Thomas. Chancellor 5, Sherman 5, brandon browner who was suspended last night was undrafted. So in browner's place they started byron maxwell who was a 5, and signed Walter Thurmond (4th round) as a street FA in late december to replace browner.
Earl Thomas in the first round completed the D, he didn't start it. Just like Jerry Rice completed the Niners O, he didn't start it.. the year before Rice was drafted, the 49ers made the NFCtitle game with Roger Craig their leading receiver.
OL and DL (and, now, LB) is the winning formula.
Except that's completely wrong.
Denver finished 8th overall in offensive line run block production, Seattle 9th.
Denver's offensive line finished 17th in power run ranking (Successes on 3rd/4th and short, 1st/2nd and goal to go). Seattle finished 32nd.
Denver's offensive line finished 1st (least percentage) in runs stopped behind the line of scrimmage. Seattle finished 15th.
Denver's offensive lined finished 4th in second level yards gained, Seattle finished 13th.
Denver's offensive line finished 20th in getting their running back into the open field, Seattle finished 23rd.
Denver finished 1st in pass protection, with an adjusted sack percentage of 3.7%.
Seattle finished 32nd in pass protection, with an adjusted sack percentage of 9.6%
Denver's offensive line, in every single measurable statistic of offensive lines, was markedly better than Seattle's.
Furthermore:
Denver's defensive line finished 3rd in overall rushing defense. Seattle's 13th.
Denver's defensive line finished 13th in power run ranking, Seattle finished 24th.
Denver's defensive line finished 9th in stuffed runs, Seattle finished 11th.
Denver's defensive line finished 9th in second level runs allowed, Seattle finished 11th.
The only thing Seattle's defensive line beat Denver's defensive line in is sacks, getting 3 more sacks on the year.
Seattle just played better football, that's how you win the game. Denver was better on paper, but Seattle was better on the field.
Except that's completely wrong.
Denver finished 8th overall in offensive line run block production, Seattle 9th.
Denver's offensive line finished 17th in power run ranking (Successes on 3rd/4th and short, 1st/2nd and goal to go). Seattle finished 32nd.
Denver's offensive line finished 1st (least percentage) in runs stopped behind the line of scrimmage. Seattle finished 15th.
Denver's offensive lined finished 4th in second level yards gained, Seattle finished 13th.
Denver's offensive line finished 20th in getting their running back into the open field, Seattle finished 23rd.
Denver finished 1st in pass protection, with an adjusted sack percentage of 3.7%.
Seattle finished 32nd in pass protection, with an adjusted sack percentage of 9.6%
Denver's offensive line, in every single measurable statistic of offensive lines, was markedly better than Seattle's.
Denver's defensive line finished 3rd in overall rushing defense. Seattle's 13th.
Denver's defensive line finished 13th in power run ranking, Seattle finished 24th.
Denver's defensive line finished 9th in stuffed runs, Seattle finished 11th.
Denver's defensive line finished 9th in second level runs allowed, Seattle finished 11th.
Not so fast my friend...
Great collection of stats, but they do not exist in a vacuum...
I'd love to find a stat on "Percent of time team played with the lead", but not finding it. I think it would explain some of the differences you generated. We've had this discussion before. The scoreboard dictates how much an opponent runs influences broad catagories like "overall rushing defense".
I am sure that the contrasting offensive approaches (Denver's pass first vs. Seattle's run first) of the two SB teams explains a fair amount of the runs stopped behind the O-line.
- Denver ran a league leading 1156 total offensive plays; Seattle was 29th with 973.
- Denver rushed 461 times (11th in the league) or 39.9% ; Seattle rushed 509 times (2nd in the league) or 52.3%.
- By difference Denver passed 695 times; Seattle 464 times.
I've no doubt Ds had to honor the pass more against Denver in 3rd and short situations.
I am sure that WR quality and scheme explains the sack differences. Peyton simply does not hold the ball; Wilson holds the ball. Their difference may not be as dramatic as Hoyer vs. Wheezy, but...
And on and on and on...
Bottom line: There are many reasons why your stat collection fails to certify the clear superiority of Denver's lines to Seattle's lines to the degree that you apparently feel they do.
... Denver's offensive line ... (is) used to "omaha" etc.
It was nice not hearing that the entire game...
Manziels definitely a little more wreckless running the ball. At least as far as tucking it and sliding. The good news is those issues are pretty fixable. so I don't judge him on that alone.
Wreckless is a good word for what JF does. As I've repeatedly said, his competitive fire simply fogs his judgement and gets him into situations that he survived at A&M, but will not at the next level.
Pretty fixable? Leg irons? A lot can be "fixed " on a practice field (or driving range) that come s back out under pressure.
Exactly - the NFL is a man's game, and a lot of work ethic is required.
Manziel could turn out to be locked in to what he is in college - a spectacular improviser.
Work ethic is not an issue with Manziel from what I've heard. He loves the film room.
Not sure if "spectacular improviser" is a good or a bad thing...
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Funny thing about the mobile qb especially Steve Young. Young would never survive in today's nfl.(his running style). People forget being the best mobile qb ever came with a very steep price. What he have like 15 concussions? His career woulda been over after what 3 in today's game. Kaep, Wilson, and Newton will need to adapt. Hell Wilson and kaep both had less designed qb runs than last year and will have less next year.Right... Pretty sure Steve Young won a couple Super Bowls...
I'll take a pocket passer all day with the smarts to get yrds when everything breaks down. Stay in the pocket where it's safe and ur protected.
Actually big Ben is more of where the nfl is going. Andrew luck and cam Newton is where u wanna go.
Funny thing about the mobile qb especially Steve Young. Young would never survive in today's nfl.(his running style).
Actually, as you alluded to in the rest of your post, he did not survive in his era...
So if the browns had the opportunity to draft a 22 year old Peyton Manning or a 22 yr old Russell Wilson in this next draft which one would you want? All other things being equal of course.
Smart question...
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So if the browns had the opportunity to draft a 22 year old Peyton Manning or a 22 yr old Russell Wilson in this next draft which one would you want? All other things being equal of course.
WSS
So if the browns had the opportunity to draft a 22 year old Peyton Manning or a 22 yr old Russell Wilson in this next draft which one would you want? All other things being equal of course.
WSS
I would draft a 22 year old Manning over any player in NFL history.
15 years of winning and contending sounds really good right now.
Z
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Best ever???? That was ARGUEABLE last week. Now it's official. NO FUCKING WAY. Like I have said before he gets thrown in with Brett Favre and Kurt Warner category. Chasing Brady, Montana, and Bradshaw. This we know is true.
Games 1-16 Best Ever. No arguments from me. But best ever is out of question for sure.
Is Trent Dilfer a better QB than Dan Marino then?
This ringss judgement on QBs is from the 80s and needs to be put to bed once and for all.
Manning is twice the QB Tom Brady is
ur completely a ratard if u believe that. Got some factsManning is twice the QB Tom Brady is
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So if the browns had the opportunity to draft a 22 year old Peyton Manning or a 22 yr old Russell Wilson in this next draft which one would you want? All other things being equal of course.
WSS
So if the browns had the opportunity to draft a 22 year old Peyton Manning or a 22 yr old Russell Wilson in this next draft which one would you want? All other things being equal of course.
WSS
I think Seattle themselves would draft a 22yo Manning at this point. Wilson's career is just beginning though.
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ur completely a ratard if u believe that. Got some factsManning is twice the QB Tom Brady is
ur completely a ratard if u believe that. Got some facts
Put him in that NE team with Belichik and they win more then zero superbowls sicne Spygate
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can't use a hypothetical to make ur point. What Brady did this year with the least amount of talent either two Qbs have ever had is completely amazing. Brady went to afc championship game with nobody. Peyton had a record setting year and didn't win it all with the most talented team he's ever had on both sides of the ball.Put him in that NE team with Belichik and they win more then zero superbowls sicne Spygate
Put Brady with those offensive juggernauts Manning had yr after yr and brady has more than 1 superbowl for a career.
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Put him in that NE team with Belichik and they win more then zero superbowls sicne Spygate
Hard to make claims like that
It's hard to pick between Brady and Manning. Both are incredible quarterbacks. I mean, if you put all of Denver's weapons on NE Brady probably would have had a record setting season too.
You put Denver's weapons with a guy like Kaepernick, Wilson, Flacco, Ben, etc. I don't think those guys break the records - but their offenses sure get a lot better.
I mean Manning made a backup offensive line look like studs most of the season. That takes a great QB.
Regardless...Peyton and Brady will go down as two of the greatest to ever play the position. Better than anything we, or most teams, have had in the modern era of the NFL.
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