The Mobile QB Beat the Pocket Passer--New Era Born
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Wait... did someone call Russell Wilson "not so mobile?" Yikes. Get a TV. Or ESPN.com so you know he ran for 569 yards this season.
Did we see what happened to ACTUALLY not-so-mobile Peyton Manning if he tried to throw over 4 yards? He got hit or pushed off his spot, which he hates.
This thread title is correct: It's a pass the ball, rush the passer league. Seattle forced Manning out of his comfort zone like the Giants treated Tom Brady... and the Patriots early treated Peyton Manning. You can't do that to Wilson because he'll roll out, extend the play, and complete the pass.
Like Manziel, against top competition. Or Kaepernick, the NFC runner-up who ran for 524 yards.
'not so mobile' in the fact that they don't run a run-option scheme, he is mobile enough to get out of jams and can get to the first line marker.
he is not colin kaepernick who scrambles for 40 yards.
that's the difference you QB loving so and so.
i'd love to see manziel do that in the NFL.
pleez god now draft him so we can all (all of that disagree with a manziel pick) can blast you for 5 years on how you are an epic failure in your QB draft analysis.
wasn't it quinn who you pined for? or was it anderson? maybe charlie frye? you've been aces on all your picks.
'not so mobile' in the fact that they don't run a run-option scheme, he is mobile enough to get out of jams and can get to the first line marker.
he is not colin kaepernick who scrambles for 40 yards.
that's the difference you QB loving so and so.
i'd love to see manziel do that in the NFL.
pleez god now draft him so we can all (all of that disagree with a manziel pick) can blast you for 5 years on how you are an epic failure in your QB draft analysis.
wasn't it quinn who you pined for? or was it anderson? maybe charlie frye? you've been aces on all your picks.
So has the Browns scouting department.
Colin Kaepernick runs a 4.53.
Russell Wilson runs a 4.55.
Wilson possesses the same speed as Kaep, he just plays in a different offense.
Manziel is rumored to run around a 4.53. Why couldn't he do the same?
People like to forget that Manziel was scouted, and offered a scholarship, by Chip Kelly. He was a verbal commit to Oregon, backed out and chose A&M instead.
Why exactly can't Manziel run in the NFL?
I'm awesome, and I fuck dolphins. Ghoolie 12/2/2012: I have absolutely no skills, training or pride -
I'm kinda liking manziel a little bit more. With the right coaching and system he could be good. But then again so could anybody else.
Some of these posts like manziel is better than Wilson, and mobile QBs are better are a bit ludicrous tho.
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'not so mobile' in the fact that they don't run a run-option scheme, he is mobile enough to get out of jams and can get to the first line marker.
he is not colin kaepernick who scrambles for 40 yards.
that's the difference you QB loving so and so.
i'd love to see manziel do that in the NFL.
pleez god now draft him so we can all (all of that disagree with a manziel pick) can blast you for 5 years on how you are an epic failure in your QB draft analysis.
wasn't it quinn who you pined for? or was it anderson? maybe charlie frye? you've been aces on all your picks.
So has the Browns scouting department.
Colin Kaepernick runs a 4.53.
Russell Wilson runs a 4.55.
Wilson possesses the same speed as Kaep, he just plays in a different offense.
Manziel is rumored to run around a 4.53. Why couldn't he do the same?
People like to forget that Manziel was scouted, and offered a scholarship, by Chip Kelly. He was a verbal commit to Oregon, backed out and chose A&M instead.
Why exactly can't Manziel run in the NFL?
So has the Browns scouting department.
Colin Kaepernick runs a 4.53.
Russell Wilson runs a 4.55.
Wilson possesses the same speed as Kaep, he just plays in a different offense.
Manziel is rumored to run around a 4.53. Why couldn't he do the same?
People like to forget that Manziel was scouted, and offered a scholarship, by Chip Kelly. He was a verbal commit to Oregon, backed out and chose A&M instead.
Why exactly can't Manziel run in the NFL?
Because his running style is not Wilson's. Kapernick has at least 3 inches and 20 pounds on Johnny Football. Try telling me that doesn't matter.
You take one of those extreme pirouettes or cuts Manziel routinely does at the wrong time, namely a TJ Ward style shot to the leg, and it's bye-bye ACL or more.
BTW, if Manziel can clock a sub-4.4 at the combine, I may slightly change my mind.
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So has the Browns scouting department.
Colin Kaepernick runs a 4.53.
Russell Wilson runs a 4.55.
Wilson possesses the same speed as Kaep, he just plays in a different offense.
Manziel is rumored to run around a 4.53. Why couldn't he do the same?
People like to forget that Manziel was scouted, and offered a scholarship, by Chip Kelly. He was a verbal commit to Oregon, backed out and chose A&M instead.
Why exactly can't Manziel run in the NFL?
Because his running style is not Wilson's. Kapernick has at least 3 inches and 20 pounds on Johnny Football. Try telling me that doesn't matter.
You take one of those extreme pirouettes or cuts Manziel routinely does at the wrong time, namely a TJ Ward style shot to the leg, and it's bye-bye ACL or more.
BTW, if Manziel can clock a sub-4.4 at the combine, I may slightly change my mind.
Because his running style is not Wilson's. Kapernick has at least 3 inches and 20 pounds on Johnny Football. Try telling me that doesn't matter.
You take one of those extreme pirouettes or cuts Manziel routinely does at the wrong time, namely a TJ Ward style shot to the leg, and it's bye-bye ACL or more.
BTW, if Manziel can clock a sub-4.4 at the combine, I may slightly change my mind.
I'd love some video breakdown of the differences in their "running styles".
I hear about this a good amount from people here, yet rarely anywhere else.
I'm awesome, and I fuck dolphins. Ghoolie 12/2/2012: I have absolutely no skills, training or pride -
Because his running style is not Wilson's. Kapernick has at least 3 inches and 20 pounds on Johnny Football. Try telling me that doesn't matter.
You take one of those extreme pirouettes or cuts Manziel routinely does at the wrong time, namely a TJ Ward style shot to the leg, and it's bye-bye ACL or more.
BTW, if Manziel can clock a sub-4.4 at the combine, I may slightly change my mind.
I'd love some video breakdown of the differences in their "running styles".
I hear about this a good amount from people here, yet rarely anywhere else.
I'd love some video breakdown of the differences in their "running styles".
I hear about this a good amount from people here, yet rarely anywhere else.
Good Lord, just pull up a YouTube of Manzel- and tell me with a straight face you don't see extreme cutting, Hell, watching his footwork on the first video I pulled up, I'm surprised he hasn't blown out a knee yet with no hit. We're talking Erick Metcalf level dancing.
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Because his running style is not Wilson's. Kapernick has at least 3 inches and 20 pounds on Johnny Football. Try telling me that doesn't matter.
You take one of those extreme pirouettes or cuts Manziel routinely does at the wrong time, namely a TJ Ward style shot to the leg, and it's bye-bye ACL or more.
BTW, if Manziel can clock a sub-4.4 at the combine, I may slightly change my mind.
I'd love some video breakdown of the differences in their "running styles".
I hear about this a good amount from people here, yet rarely anywhere else.
I'd love some video breakdown of the differences in their "running styles".
I hear about this a good amount from people here, yet rarely anywhere else.
Manziels definitely a little more wreckless running the ball. At least as far as tucking it and sliding. The good news is those issues are pretty fixable. so I don't judge him on that alone.
There's other more pertinent potential issues to discuss with manziel IMO. Like, partying problems and can he effectively throw without escaping the pocket. You won't get those 10 second crazy plays in the big leagues. You have to get rid of it correctly fast. Extending the play is good if nothing's open. But I've seen manziel tape of him passing on open targets and extending a play forever until his primary read reroutes for the 3rd time to get open.
Maybe a limited sample, but those plays don't happen in the NFL often.
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But consistency is much more important than investing five first rounders.
nobody on here i think is advocating picking an OL in the first round (although it wouldn't bother me). at least admit and address that our right side of the line is horrific and has been for years now.
and i don't care about stats. the right side of the OL has sucked and anyone who watches the browns knows that.
nobody on here i think is advocating picking an OL in the first round (although it wouldn't bother me). at least admit and address that our right side of the line is horrific and has been for years now.
and i don't care about stats. the right side of the OL has sucked and anyone who watches the browns knows that.
I might advocate taking an OL in the first round....if like David Yankey were there for our #26 pick....and there truly seemed to be no better option.
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Manziels definitely a little more wreckless running the ball. At least as far as tucking it and sliding. The good news is those issues are pretty fixable. so I don't judge him on that alone.
There's other more pertinent potential issues to discuss with manziel IMO. Like, partying problems and can he effectively throw without escaping the pocket. You won't get those 10 second crazy plays in the big leagues. You have to get rid of it correctly fast. Extending the play is good if nothing's open. But I've seen manziel tape of him passing on open targets and extending a play forever until his primary read reroutes for the 3rd time to get open. Maybe a limited sample, but those plays don't happen in the NFL often.
****************************Exactly - the NFL is a man's game, and a lot of work ethic is required.
Manziel could turn out to be locked in to what he is in college - a spectacular
improviser.
But like a lot of NFL players have said "in the NFL, every player was great in college"
What if, in interviews, he comes across like a lazy off the field hotshot who isn't coachable?
Still think he's the guy at 4 because he was great in college?
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I'd love some video breakdown of the differences in their "running styles".
I hear about this a good amount from people here, yet rarely anywhere else.
Good Lord, just pull up a YouTube of Manzel- and tell me with a straight face you don't see extreme cutting, Hell, watching his footwork on the first video I pulled up, I'm surprised he hasn't blown out a knee yet with no hit. We're talking Erick Metcalf level dancing.
Good Lord, just pull up a YouTube of Manzel- and tell me with a straight face you don't see extreme cutting, Hell, watching his footwork on the first video I pulled up, I'm surprised he hasn't blown out a knee yet with no hit. We're talking Erick Metcalf level dancing.
Extreme cutting?
Okay.
"Hey, Haslam. This is your scouting department. We're not comfortable taking Manziel. Yeah, the guy just cuts way too hard. I'm talking extreme cutting. We'd feel more comfortable with a guy who just runs into contact or, better yet, just falls and turtles whenever a defender gets within five yards. Better to save those knees than get yards."
That is literally the dumbest thing I've heard on here in a long time.
I'm awesome, and I fuck dolphins. Ghoolie 12/2/2012: I have absolutely no skills, training or pride -
Not really. In the NFL, he won't get away with that kind of cutting - the talent level
is far higher across the board for him to get away with it like he did in college.
It's a concern.
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Employees who LOVE whatever they do for a living helps any business succeed.
Speaking of which... despite Peyton setting a SB record for completions (yup, he did), I do not see him "going out" on this game. He loves it too much.Tour
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Yeah, he sure did complete em...he's a brilliant qb. And he loves it. Amazing - and maybe he might
stay one more year. Or maybe he was playing hurt or something. But he does need some offensive linemen,
and more than Welker to beat the likes of Seattle, a team with no weaknesses at all. It would be ironic
to have him eventually retire, and take a qb coaching/fo job with Elway and the Broncos, eh?
But despite Peyton being arguably the best qb ever? His yards per pass was 5.7. That's kinda
telling, I think. And Denver only managed 1.9 yards per rush. Your right though, Peyton will
probably come back again - but they need to beef up their secondary, and offensive line.
It would be ironic to have him eventually retire, and take a qb coaching/fo job with Elway and the Broncos, eh?
I have a feeling Peyton's next stop is either a broadcast booth (MNF?) or studio. After that it'll be Canton... then maybe coaching.
I wouldn't include Tom Brady. He has tremendous pocket awareness, but that's where his elusiveness stops. Rodgers, however, is an apt comparison.
All you need is a quarterback who's mobile enough to extend plays, a la Roethlisberger and Wilson.
I believe Bortles is more than mobile enough to elude rushers, as is Manziel.
Agree on Brady.... one of the knocks on him in the draft was how slow afoot he was. He ran a 5.28 40 at the 2000 combine.
Big Ben is the odd duck, adding strength into the mix.
Completely agree on Bortles. When I started watching Bortles I could not believe how fast he was.
Best ever???? That was ARGUEABLE last week. Now it's official. NO FUCKING WAY.
Still in the argument as far as I am concerned. Peyton's just in that "physically diminished" phase now. Most of the great QB end up there.
"When you have a shared vision it is a lot easier to make unpopular decisions." - Paul DePodesta "When you win, say nothing. When you lose, say less." - Paul Brown Complete 2017 Browns Board Mock: http://thebrownsboard.com/forums/index.php?showtopic=46196 -
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Good Lord, just pull up a YouTube of Manzel- and tell me with a straight face you don't see extreme cutting, Hell, watching his footwork on the first video I pulled up, I'm surprised he hasn't blown out a knee yet with no hit. We're talking Erick Metcalf level dancing.
Extreme cutting?
Okay.
"Hey, Haslam. This is your scouting department. We're not comfortable taking Manziel. Yeah, the guy just cuts way too hard. I'm talking extreme cutting. We'd feel more comfortable with a guy who just runs into contact or, better yet, just falls and turtles whenever a defender gets within five yards. Better to save those knees than get yards."
That is literally the dumbest thing I've heard on here in a long time.
We'd feel more comfortable with a guy who just falls and turtles whenever a defender gets within five yards. Better to save those knees than get yards."
That is literally the dumbest thing I've heard on here in a long time.
Tell that to Peyton Manning. No the dumbest thing is you refusing to admit the same thing other guys here are seeing- Manziel's running style puts him at an above average risk of a serious knee injury. .
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It would be ironic to have him eventually retire, and take a qb coaching/fo job with Elway and the Broncos, eh?
I have a feeling Peyton's next stop is either a broadcast booth (MNF?) or studio. After that it'll be Canton... then maybe coaching.
I wouldn't include Tom Brady. He has tremendous pocket awareness, but that's where his elusiveness stops. Rodgers, however, is an apt comparison.
All you need is a quarterback who's mobile enough to extend plays, a la Roethlisberger and Wilson.
I believe Bortles is more than mobile enough to elude rushers, as is Manziel.
Agree on Brady.... one of the knocks on him in the draft was how slow afoot he was. He ran a 5.28 40 at the 2000 combine.
Big Ben is the odd duck, adding strength into the mix.
Completely agree on Bortles. When I started watching Bortles I could not believe how fast he was.
Best ever???? That was ARGUEABLE last week. Now it's official. NO FUCKING WAY.
Still in the argument as far as I am concerned. Peyton's just in that "physically diminished" phase now. Most of the great QB end up there.
up there with Favre and Warner period. No better no worse.I have a feeling Peyton's next stop is either a broadcast booth (MNF?) or studio. After that it'll be Canton... then maybe coaching.
Agree on Brady.... one of the knocks on him in the draft was how slow afoot he was. He ran a 5.28 40 at the 2000 combine.
Big Ben is the odd duck, adding strength into the mix.
Completely agree on Bortles. When I started watching Bortles I could not believe how fast he was.
Still in the argument as far as I am concerned. Peyton's just in that "physically diminished" phase now. Most of the great QB end up there.
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Zombo said:
Mobile quarterbacks: Not "new"!
Z
Right... Pretty sure Steve Young won a couple Super Bowls...
Funny thing about the mobile qb especially Steve Young. Young would never survive in today's nfl.(his running style). People forget being the best mobile qb ever came with a very steep price. What he have like 15 concussions? His career woulda been over after what 3 in today's game. Kaep, Wilson, and Newton will need to adapt. Hell Wilson and kaep both had less designed qb runs than last year and will have less next year.Right... Pretty sure Steve Young won a couple Super Bowls...
I'll take a pocket passer all day with the smarts to get yrds when everything breaks down. Stay in the pocket where it's safe and ur protected.
Actually big Ben is more of where the nfl is going. Andrew luck and cam Newton is where u wanna go.
"We are Americans. We don't quit doing something because it's wrong. We just keep doing the wrong thing till it turns out right." Browns maybe the most American Football team ever. -
But despite Peyton being arguably the best qb ever? His yards per pass was 5.7. That's kinda
telling, I think. And Denver only managed 1.9 yards per rush. Your right though, Peyton will
probably come back again - but they need to beef up their secondary, and offensive line.
Best ever???? That was ARGUEABLE last week. Now it's official. NO FUCKING WAY. Like I have said before he gets thrown in with Brett Favre and Kurt Warner category. Chasing Brady, Montana, and Bradshaw. This we know is true.
Games 1-16 Best Ever. No arguments from me. But best ever is out of question for sure.
Best ever???? That was ARGUEABLE last week. Now it's official. NO FUCKING WAY. Like I have said before he gets thrown in with Brett Favre and Kurt Warner category. Chasing Brady, Montana, and Bradshaw. This we know is true.
Games 1-16 Best Ever. No arguments from me. But best ever is out of question for sure.
Is Trent Dilfer a better QB than Dan Marino then?
This ringss judgement on QBs is from the 80s and needs to be put to bed once and for all.
Manning is twice the QB Tom Brady is
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So if the browns had the opportunity to draft a 22 year old Peyton Manning or a 22 yr old Russell Wilson in this next draft which one would you want? All other things being equal of course.
WSS
www.westsidesteve.com www.myspace.com/westsidestevemusic www.cdbaby.com/artist/westsidestevesimmons -
The thread title should read: The team with the best DL and OL won. Everything else is secondary to that.
Pats had the best OL in football during all their title years. Same with Dallas in their day, Baltimore, TB, etc.
The only WR in Seattle who was truly a game-changer was Harvin, and he touched the ball once all season.. everyone else was league average, especially Doug Baldwin who was undrafted but led the Seahawks in receiving with 5/66/1 TD.. baldwin was also the hawks 2nd leading receiver during the year.
Hawks have a great secondary yes, but those guys were all mid-late round picks except Earl Thomas. Chancellor 5, Sherman 5, brandon browner who was suspended last night was undrafted. So in browner's place they started byron maxwell who was a 5, and signed Walter Thurmond (4th round) as a street FA in late december to replace browner.
Earl Thomas in the first round completed the D, he didn't start it. Just like Jerry Rice completed the Niners O, he didn't start it.. the year before Rice was drafted, the 49ers made the NFCtitle game with Roger Craig their leading receiver.
OL and DL (and, now, LB) is the winning formula.
Except that's completely wrong.
Denver finished 8th overall in offensive line run block production, Seattle 9th.
Denver's offensive line finished 17th in power run ranking (Successes on 3rd/4th and short, 1st/2nd and goal to go). Seattle finished 32nd.
Denver's offensive line finished 1st (least percentage) in runs stopped behind the line of scrimmage. Seattle finished 15th.
Denver's offensive lined finished 4th in second level yards gained, Seattle finished 13th.
Denver's offensive line finished 20th in getting their running back into the open field, Seattle finished 23rd.
Denver finished 1st in pass protection, with an adjusted sack percentage of 3.7%.
Seattle finished 32nd in pass protection, with an adjusted sack percentage of 9.6%
Denver's offensive line, in every single measurable statistic of offensive lines, was markedly better than Seattle's.
Furthermore:
Denver's defensive line finished 3rd in overall rushing defense. Seattle's 13th.
Denver's defensive line finished 13th in power run ranking, Seattle finished 24th.
Denver's defensive line finished 9th in stuffed runs, Seattle finished 11th.
Denver's defensive line finished 9th in second level runs allowed, Seattle finished 11th.
The only thing Seattle's defensive line beat Denver's defensive line in is sacks, getting 3 more sacks on the year.
Seattle just played better football, that's how you win the game. Denver was better on paper, but Seattle was better on the field.
Except that's completely wrong.
Denver finished 8th overall in offensive line run block production, Seattle 9th.
Denver's offensive line finished 17th in power run ranking (Successes on 3rd/4th and short, 1st/2nd and goal to go). Seattle finished 32nd.
Denver's offensive line finished 1st (least percentage) in runs stopped behind the line of scrimmage. Seattle finished 15th.
Denver's offensive lined finished 4th in second level yards gained, Seattle finished 13th.
Denver's offensive line finished 20th in getting their running back into the open field, Seattle finished 23rd.
Denver finished 1st in pass protection, with an adjusted sack percentage of 3.7%.
Seattle finished 32nd in pass protection, with an adjusted sack percentage of 9.6%
Denver's offensive line, in every single measurable statistic of offensive lines, was markedly better than Seattle's.
Denver's defensive line finished 3rd in overall rushing defense. Seattle's 13th.
Denver's defensive line finished 13th in power run ranking, Seattle finished 24th.
Denver's defensive line finished 9th in stuffed runs, Seattle finished 11th.
Denver's defensive line finished 9th in second level runs allowed, Seattle finished 11th.
Not so fast my friend...
Great collection of stats, but they do not exist in a vacuum...
I'd love to find a stat on "Percent of time team played with the lead", but not finding it. I think it would explain some of the differences you generated. We've had this discussion before. The scoreboard dictates how much an opponent runs influences broad catagories like "overall rushing defense".
I am sure that the contrasting offensive approaches (Denver's pass first vs. Seattle's run first) of the two SB teams explains a fair amount of the runs stopped behind the O-line.
- Denver ran a league leading 1156 total offensive plays; Seattle was 29th with 973.
- Denver rushed 461 times (11th in the league) or 39.9% ; Seattle rushed 509 times (2nd in the league) or 52.3%.
- By difference Denver passed 695 times; Seattle 464 times.
I've no doubt Ds had to honor the pass more against Denver in 3rd and short situations.
I am sure that WR quality and scheme explains the sack differences. Peyton simply does not hold the ball; Wilson holds the ball. Their difference may not be as dramatic as Hoyer vs. Wheezy, but...
And on and on and on...
Bottom line: There are many reasons why your stat collection fails to certify the clear superiority of Denver's lines to Seattle's lines to the degree that you apparently feel they do.
... Denver's offensive line ... (is) used to "omaha" etc.
It was nice not hearing that the entire game...
Manziels definitely a little more wreckless running the ball. At least as far as tucking it and sliding. The good news is those issues are pretty fixable. so I don't judge him on that alone.
Wreckless is a good word for what JF does. As I've repeatedly said, his competitive fire simply fogs his judgement and gets him into situations that he survived at A&M, but will not at the next level.
Pretty fixable? Leg irons? A lot can be "fixed " on a practice field (or driving range) that come s back out under pressure.
Exactly - the NFL is a man's game, and a lot of work ethic is required.
Manziel could turn out to be locked in to what he is in college - a spectacular improviser.
Work ethic is not an issue with Manziel from what I've heard. He loves the film room.
Not sure if "spectacular improviser" is a good or a bad thing...
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Funny thing about the mobile qb especially Steve Young. Young would never survive in today's nfl.(his running style). People forget being the best mobile qb ever came with a very steep price. What he have like 15 concussions? His career woulda been over after what 3 in today's game. Kaep, Wilson, and Newton will need to adapt. Hell Wilson and kaep both had less designed qb runs than last year and will have less next year.Right... Pretty sure Steve Young won a couple Super Bowls...
I'll take a pocket passer all day with the smarts to get yrds when everything breaks down. Stay in the pocket where it's safe and ur protected.
Actually big Ben is more of where the nfl is going. Andrew luck and cam Newton is where u wanna go.
Funny thing about the mobile qb especially Steve Young. Young would never survive in today's nfl.(his running style).
Actually, as you alluded to in the rest of your post, he did not survive in his era...
So if the browns had the opportunity to draft a 22 year old Peyton Manning or a 22 yr old Russell Wilson in this next draft which one would you want? All other things being equal of course.
Smart question...
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So if the browns had the opportunity to draft a 22 year old Peyton Manning or a 22 yr old Russell Wilson in this next draft which one would you want? All other things being equal of course.
WSS
So if the browns had the opportunity to draft a 22 year old Peyton Manning or a 22 yr old Russell Wilson in this next draft which one would you want? All other things being equal of course.
WSS
I would draft a 22 year old Manning over any player in NFL history.
15 years of winning and contending sounds really good right now.
Z
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