Connor Shaw
-
I think the NFL will be taken by surprise with this kids maturity, dedication, and work ethic (Shaw) I like Manziel and am rooting for him to succeed, mostly because I think Merrill Hoge is a freaking moron. However I have to say that no matter which way you look evaluate Shaw and Manziel, you should get similar numbers, Shaw led SC to 3 consecutive 11-2 records, better than JFF. His QBR this year was off the charts 24 TDs-1 INT and of course Beat Mizzou after trailing 18-0 late in the 3rd. Shaw also didn't have a great O-line protecting him, which is why he wasn't drafted(to the guy who said him being an UDFA was because he was unworthy of a draft pick) SC ran its offense from the shotgun 90% of the year.
Johnny Football, easily the most exciting college football player in history. Manziel is not as fast as Shaw, but is more elusive. Manziel also has a stronger arm than Shaw, Johnny is also a student of the game (Shaw is too) Manziel rose to stardom by defeating an "unbeatable" Alabama team. Manziel's report is shorter than Shaw's just because a lot of what Johnny does cant be quantified by mere stats 10,000 yards in 2 seasons, completing 70% of passes from the pocket, the innate ability to extend plays with his feet, and flat out make magic happen. . .
The Truth of the matter is their both undersized mobile QB's with slim frames, it's going to come down to execution and film study, and unfortunately for some I give that edge to Shaw, the guy just doesn't make mistakes with the Football, I'd venture to say that 20-35% of Manziel's passes were jump balls, which is what you do when you have a 6'4 230 pound receiver, Shaw on the other hand hasn't had a top receiver over 5'10 in 3 years, so lets let the QB competition play out and see which rookie backs up Hoyer
Who by the way had us on the verge of a play-off berth last year... How quickly we forget
I think the NFL will be taken by surprise with this kids maturity, dedication, and work ethic (Shaw) I like Manziel and am rooting for him to succeed, mostly because I think Merrill Hoge is a freaking moron. However I have to say that no matter which way you look evaluate Shaw and Manziel, you should get similar numbers, Shaw led SC to 3 consecutive 11-2 records, better than JFF. His QBR this year was off the charts 24 TDs-1 INT and of course Beat Mizzou after trailing 18-0 late in the 3rd. Shaw also didn't have a great O-line protecting him, which is why he wasn't drafted(to the guy who said him being an UDFA was because he was unworthy of a draft pick) SC ran its offense from the shotgun 90% of the year.
Johnny Football, easily the most exciting college football player in history. Manziel is not as fast as Shaw, but is more elusive. Manziel also has a stronger arm than Shaw, Johnny is also a student of the game (Shaw is too) Manziel rose to stardom by defeating an "unbeatable" Alabama team. Manziel's report is shorter than Shaw's just because a lot of what Johnny does cant be quantified by mere stats 10,000 yards in 2 seasons, completing 70% of passes from the pocket, the innate ability to extend plays with his feet, and flat out make magic happen. . .
The Truth of the matter is their both undersized mobile QB's with slim frames, it's going to come down to execution and film study, and unfortunately for some I give that edge to Shaw, the guy just doesn't make mistakes with the Football, I'd venture to say that 20-35% of Manziel's passes were jump balls, which is what you do when you have a 6'4 230 pound receiver, Shaw on the other hand hasn't had a top receiver over 5'10 in 3 years, so lets let the QB competition play out and see which rookie backs up Hoyer
Who by the way had us on the verge of a play-off berth last year... How quickly we forget
Perhaps the Browns are thinking that they should have a backup QB that has similar traits and qualities as the starter. It does a team no good to have a starter with one style of play (lets say like Manziel starter), but then come in with a lumbering pocket passer. Have a mobile QB back up a mobile QB, or have a pocket passer back up a pocket passer. That way you don't have to change your entire style of play or game plan if the backup must come in. So, by what you say, JFF and Shaw are cut from the same cloth.
-
And to a degree, Hoyer? I think we're going to see a lot of play action/bootleg/roll-out plays. Using the run to set up the run, primarily, then maybe throwing it occasionally.
-
Now we're talking. Plug-n-play...to a degree. I'm a Shaw homer all the way, but hope Hoyer is the starter.
-
Yea you guys make some pretty good points, it makes more sense to draft QB's that fit YOUR scheme, and what you want to do on offense instead of building offenses around certain QB's because an injury could derail a season. lol, but these guys are seriously the same guy numbers don't lie their pretty much the exact same height, weight, and speed 40 times literally .02 apart. so with equal reps to the same receivers, I think we could have two potential future stars, obviously one will have to leave after their rookie contracts expires, because I'd much rather waste top backup QB dollars on a Logan Thomas, 6'6 250 guy not necessarily because of the strong arm, but just more durability. lol Let's be honest if Manziel starts and Shaw is his backup. . .there's a good chance both guys could be out of the lineup by week 10
-
To me the best thing about all this concerning all the QB's is that they are all supercompetitive and all want to change this franchise into the winner it deserves to be. The fact that they all fit what this staff is trying to accomplish in terms of great D's and an O that has a point guard for a QB behind a very strong running game is a real plus in making that happen. Whoever runs this O is being put in a great position to succeed in the long run.
Lines win football and that is what the Browns have put in place to build around on both sides of the ball. The future looks very bright from a pure football standpoint regardless of the personalities.
Now find a couple of decent WR's and this team is ready for anybody.
-
Yea you guys make some pretty good points, it makes more sense to draft QB's that fit YOUR scheme, and what you want to do on offense instead of building offenses around certain QB's because an injury could derail a season. lol, but these guys are seriously the same guy numbers don't lie their pretty much the exact same height, weight, and speed 40 times literally .02 apart. so with equal reps to the same receivers, I think we could have two potential future stars, obviously one will have to leave after their rookie contracts expires, because I'd much rather waste top backup QB dollars on a Logan Thomas, 6'6 250 guy not necessarily because of the strong arm, but just more durability. lol Let's be honest if Manziel starts and Shaw is his backup. . .there's a good chance both guys could be out of the lineup by week 10
Yea you guys make some pretty good points, it makes more sense to draft QB's that fit YOUR scheme, and what you want to do on offense instead of building offenses around certain QB's because an injury could derail a season.
Actually the manta of our new HC and his coordinators is building systems to maximize the talents of their personnel.
There's enough common traits in the make up of Hoyer/ Manziel/ Shaw that the core of the "scheme" should fit all. Then you tailor packages to individual QBs based upon their order in the depth chart, which right now is Hoyer/ Manziel/ Shaw.
"When you have a shared vision it is a lot easier to make unpopular decisions." - Paul DePodesta "When you win, say nothing. When you lose, say less." - Paul Brown Complete 2017 Browns Board Mock: http://thebrownsboard.com/forums/index.php?showtopic=46196 -
Yea you guys make some pretty good points, it makes more sense to draft QB's that fit YOUR scheme, and what you want to do on offense instead of building offenses around certain QB's because an injury could derail a season.
Actually the manta of our new HC and his coordinators is building systems to maximize the talents of their personnel.
There's enough common traits in the make up of Hoyer/ Manziel/ Shaw that the core of the "scheme" should fit all. Then you tailor packages to individual QBs based upon their order in the depth chart, which right now is Hoyer/ Manziel/ Shaw.
Actually the manta of our new HC and his coordinators is building systems to maximize the talents of their personnel.
There's enough common traits in the make up of Hoyer/ Manziel/ Shaw that the core of the "scheme" should fit all. Then you tailor packages to individual QBs based upon their order in the depth chart, which right now is Hoyer/ Manziel/ Shaw.
But having three different QB's with three different skill sets and body types means we'd have to build three different groups of personnel and run three separate offenses, depending on who's playing.
Just like you said in your second sentence- It's a process. You have a scheme in mind you want to run, you take the players that would work best in that scenario, and then you tweak the offense to their skill sets.
The scheme calls for some mobility, a moving pocket, and the ability to work outside of the tackles. All of the quarterbacks come from college systems where that was heavily relied upon. All of the quarterbacks are winners, top winners at their respective universities, even. All of the quarterbacks are right handed (which is a lot bigger of an issue than is let on).
Thig could very easily be the most athletic of the group, even though he's slower than both Shaw and Manziel. Thig is one of few NFL quarterbacks to have a passing TD, a rushing TD, and a receiving TD in the same season.
Manziel is obviously the most gifted of the group. He's slightly slower than Shaw but faster than Thig, he is a natural passer and he pulls plays out of his ass. The strongest arm of the group, however.
Shaw possesses all of the intangibles you want in a QB. He's a vocal leader, he's instinctive and he is a student of the game. He's the more pedestrian QB of the group, average arm talent, above average mobility.
Shaw and Thig are more dink and dunk passers, at least moreso than Manziel. Doesn't mean they can't throw bombs, it just means they weren't asked to as often.
-
I was born and raised in South Carolina. My friends are recent Gamecock alums. I've seen every snap Shaw has played.
The guy is good, sure. He doesn't have the best arm, he's not the most mobile, he's not the biggest or the smartest, but he wins. He does things well and gets things done.
But he doesn't have a shot to unseat the starter. At best, he usurps the backup position.
I was born and raised in South Carolina. My friends are recent Gamecock alums. I've seen every snap Shaw has played.
The guy is good, sure. He doesn't have the best arm, he's not the most mobile, he's not the biggest or the smartest, but he wins. He does things well and gets things done.
But he doesn't have a shot to unseat the starter. At best, he usurps the backup position.
backup or third stinger either way in Cleveland u should probably be ready to play maybe even start as a qb.
-
I'm actually a Buckeyes fan because I grew up in Youngstown (the source of my fandom period). I now live in the south hence I'm stuck with the SEC fanfare. While I don't root for SEC teams I acknowledge that a majority of the talent goes to those schools. Doesn't mean that I don't anxiously await the Big Ten's return to power.Zombo said:
I don't know. I think we've attracted a bunch of SEC homos.
Zombo
-
Is this a real argument happening in real life?
Shaw can't hold Manziels jock, as you will see soon enough.
-
I'm actually a Buckeyes fan because I grew up in Youngstown (the source of my fandom period). I now live in the south hence I'm stuck with the SEC fanfare. While I don't root for SEC teams I acknowledge that a majority of the talent goes to those schools. Doesn't mean that I don't anxiously await the Big Ten's return to power.Zombo said:
I don't know. I think we've attracted a bunch of SEC homos.
Zombo
I'm actually a Buckeyes fan because I grew up in Youngstown (the source of my fandom period). I now live in the south hence I'm stuck with the SEC fanfare. While I don't root for SEC teams I acknowledge that a majority of the talent goes to those schools. Doesn't mean that I don't anxiously await the Big Ten's return to power.
That is a theory....but if you look at the Pro Bowl rosters, as many or more players in the Pro Bowl actually went to Big Ten or Pac 10 schools.
-
Is this a real argument happening in real life?
Shaw can't hold Manziels jock, as you will see soon enough.
Is this a real argument happening in real life?
Shaw can't hold Manziels jock, as you will see soon enough.
It is an argument about how Connor Shaw and Johhny Football have similar styles and may complement each other in the Browns offense.
Now I am sure the Gamecock honks might see Shaw as the equivalent or superior to JFF, but that is OK, since he is their boy.
Obviously not many others see it that way.
(but just be aware of my Mike Phipps/Brian Sipe analogy. The meek shall inherit the earth, and it would not be the first time that the lowly undrafted or low drafted guy outshines the big name prospect. Not saying that would happen, but also not discounting the remote possibility....because I have lived through it.)
-
JunkYardDog "Besides the fact, that Shaw outperformed Manziel, and Teddy Twatwater in every catagory of the NFL combine."
I wanted to point out that this is false.
I used the top 15 QB performers of the 2014 NFL Combine as my population.
Combine results:
40yd Dash: Shaw - 4.66 sec, Manziel - 4.68 sec
Avg: 4.83 sec, Standard deviation: 0.14 sec
Placing Shaw and Manziel within the same standard deviation.
Very slight edge: Shaw
Vertical Jump: Shaw - 34", Manziel - 31.5"
Avg: 30.5", SD: 2.49"
Placing Shaw one SD ahead of Manziel
Edge: Shaw
Broad Jump: Shaw - 9' 8" (116"), Manziel - 9' 5" (113")
Avg: 110" (9'2"), SD: 4.23"
Placing Shaw one SD ahead of Manziel.
Edge: Shaw
Three Cone: Shaw - 7.07 sec, Manziel - 6.75 sec
Avg: 7.11 sec, SD: 0.21 sec
Placing Manziel in one SD ahead of Shaw.
Edge: Manziel
20yd Shuttle: Shaw - 4.33 sec, Manziel - 4.03 sec
Avg 4.25 sec, SD: 0.09 sec
Shaw is -1 on the SD scale and Manziel is greater than 2 on the +SD. The gap between is large.
Exceptionally Large Edge: Manziel
Tally: Shaw - 2 edges, 1 slight edge. Manziel - 1 edge, 1 very large edge
If you skew the data where the avg was the worst performer of the two (Shaw and Manziel) and kept the SD, Shaw and Manziel are within the same SD on 40yd Dash, Broad Jump and Shaw is barely one SD above Manziel on the Vertical.
Skewed Tally: Shaw - 2 slight edges, 1 very slight edge. Manziel - 1 edge, 1 very large edge.
Two Notes on the 20 yd shuttle:
1. The 20 yd Shuttle is the only time either one of the performers dropped below the Avg.
2. Manziel is the 2nd fastest QB since 2006 (Matt Scott, 2013, 3.99 sec), no info before 2006
P.S. Teddy Twatwater beat Shaw at the 20yd Shuttle (4.2 sec)
TLDR: Shaw did not outperform Manziel in the draft.
Edit: Corrected 40yd Dash times
-
The good news is... both of the rookie qb's are better than colt mccoy!
-
JunkYardDog "Besides the fact, that Shaw outperformed Manziel, and Teddy Twatwater in every catagory of the NFL combine."
I wanted to point out that this is false.
I used the top 15 QB performers of the 2014 NFL Combine as my population.
Combine results:
40yd Dash: Shaw - 4.66 sec, Manziel - 4.68 sec
Avg: 4.83 sec, Standard deviation: 0.14 sec
Placing Shaw and Manziel within the same standard deviation.
Very slight edge: Shaw
Vertical Jump: Shaw - 34", Manziel - 31.5"
Avg: 30.5", SD: 2.49"
Placing Shaw one SD ahead of Manziel
Edge: Shaw
Broad Jump: Shaw - 9' 8" (116"), Manziel - 9' 5" (113")
Avg: 110" (9'2"), SD: 4.23"
Placing Shaw one SD ahead of Manziel.
Edge: Shaw
Three Cone: Shaw - 7.07 sec, Manziel - 6.75 sec
Avg: 7.11 sec, SD: 0.21 sec
Placing Manziel in one SD ahead of Shaw.
Edge: Manziel
20yd Shuttle: Shaw - 4.33 sec, Manziel - 4.03 sec
Avg 4.25 sec, SD: 0.09 sec
Shaw is -1 on the SD scale and Manziel is greater than 2 on the +SD. The gap between is large.
Exceptionally Large Edge: Manziel
Tally: Shaw - 2 edges, 1 slight edge. Manziel - 1 edge, 1 very large edge
If you skew the data where the avg was the worst performer of the two (Shaw and Manziel) and kept the SD, Shaw and Manziel are within the same SD on 40yd Dash, Broad Jump and Shaw is barely one SD above Manziel on the Vertical.
Skewed Tally: Shaw - 2 slight edges, 1 very slight edge. Manziel - 1 edge, 1 very large edge.
Two Notes on the 20 yd shuttle:
1. The 20 yd Shuttle is the only time either one of the performers dropped below the Avg.
2. Manziel is the 2nd fastest QB since 2006 (Matt Scott, 2013, 3.99 sec), no info before 2006
P.S. Teddy Twatwater beat Shaw at the 20yd Shuttle (4.2 sec)
TLDR: Shaw did not outperform Manziel in the draft.
Edit: Corrected 40yd Dash times
JunkYardDog "Besides the fact, that Shaw outperformed Manziel, and Teddy Twatwater in every catagory of the NFL combine."I wanted to point out that this is false.
I used the top 15 QB performers of the 2014 NFL Combine as my population.
Combine results:
40yd Dash: Shaw - 4.36 sec, Manziel - 4.38 sec
Avg: 4.83 sec, Standard deviation: 0.14 sec
Placing Shaw and Manziel within the same standard deviation.
Very slight edge: Shaw
Vertical Jump: Shaw - 34", Manziel - 31.5"
Avg: 30.5", SD: 2.49"
Placing Shaw one SD ahead of Manziel
Edge: Shaw
Broad Jump: Shaw - 9' 8" (116"), Manziel - 9' 5" (113")
Avg: 110" (9'2"), SD: 4.23"
Placing Shaw one SD ahead of Manziel.
Edge: Shaw
Three Cone: Shaw - 7.07 sec, Manziel - 6.75 sec
Avg: 7.11 sec, SD: 0.21 sec
Placing Manziel in one SD ahead of Shaw.
Edge: Manziel
20yd Shuttle: Shaw - 4.33 sec, Manziel - 4.03 sec
Avg 4.25 sec, SD: 0.09 sec
Shaw is -1 on the SD scale and Manziel is greater than 2 on the +SD. The gap between is large.
Exceptionally Large Edge: Manziel
Tally: Shaw - 2 edges, 1 slight edge. Manziel - 1 edge, 1 very large edge
If you skew the data where the avg was the worst performer of the two (Shaw and Manziel) and kept the SD, Shaw and Manziel are within the same SD on 40yd Dash, Broad Jump and Shaw is barely one SD above Manziel on the Vertical.
Skewed Tally: Shaw - 2 slight edges, 1 very slight edge. Manziel - 1 edge, 1 very large edge.
Two Notes on the 20 yd shuttle:
1. The 20 yd Shuttle is the only time either one of the performers dropped below the Avg.
2. Manziel is the 2nd fastest QB since 2006 (Matt Scott, 2013, 3.99 sec), no info before 2006
P.S. Teddy Twatwater beat Shaw at the 20yd Shuttle (4.2 sec)
TLDR: Shaw did not outperform Manziel in the draft.
Are you sure about those 40 times? I was pretty sure that Manziel ran 4.68 and Shaw ran 4.66. Either way, points stands that they're about the same.
-
Dont rememeber, but does the Shanny Offense have the triple option in it.
-
I don't see where Chutzpah showed up in any of those measurements.
-
Hello! It looks like you're interested in this conversation, but you don't have an account yet.
Getting fed up of having to scroll through the same posts each visit? When you register for an account, you'll always come back to exactly where you were before, and choose to be notified of new replies (either via email, or push notification). You'll also be able to save bookmarks and upvote posts to show your appreciation to other community members.
With your input, this post could be even better 💗
Register Login