Do You Really Want An Offense?
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I forget who, but someone on here called it... now starts the it's everyone else's but JM's fault.
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What's funny is that people seam to discount that Chip Kelly had issues fixing the Eagles red zone offense last year. Aside from the early season tear, their numbers declined as the season went on. A common theme amongst "spread" offenses at the collegiate and pro level.
Let's not even get into the fact that the Philly defense being historically bad. Another calling card of Chip Kelly.
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What's funny is that people seam to discount that Chip Kelly had issues fixing the Eagles red zone offense last year. Aside from the early season tear, their numbers declined as the season went on. A common theme amongst "spread" offenses at the collegiate and pro level.
Let's not even get into the fact that the Philly defense being historically bad. Another calling card of Chip Kelly.
What's funny is that people seam to discount that Chip Kelly had issues fixing the Eagles red zone offense last year. Aside from the early season tear, their numbers declined as the season went on. A common theme amongst "spread" offenses at the collegiate and pro level.
Let's not even get into the fact that the Philly defense being historically bad. Another calling card of Chip Kelly.
Wonder how much of the defensive woes are from the offense only giving them a break for such a little amount of time.
I'd hate to play defense on his team.
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Then trade him if you don't like him. He will not get better until he is to the point where he can run a wide open, no huddle offense. That's what the Browns bought into if they truly scouted him and felt he was the best QB in the draft. But now they want a "game manager" (plow horse). Those are a dime a dozen and don't cost a first round pick. So why did they take him ?(yeah go ahead and try to put all the blame on the owner-Farmer and Pettine are not that cowed).
And how come so many of you that think he is shit are disputing what the staff did? Aren't they smarter than you as well as me? I mean that is what you are saying out one side of you mouth, but it seems to be a different story when you see your other side in the mirror.
Tour-Chip had JM all but signed with Oregon so the answer is yes. He changed his commitment when A&M offered closer to family when Sherman's QB coach insisted on an offer by his boss.
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Then trade him if you don't like him. He will not get better until he is to the point where he can run a wide open, no huddle offense. That's what the Browns bought into if they truly scouted him and felt he was the best QB in the draft. But now they want a "game manager" (plow horse). Those are a dime a dozen and don't cost a first round pick. So why did they take him ?(yeah go ahead and try to put all the blame on the owner-Farmer and Pettine are not that cowed).
And how come so many of you that think he is shit are disputing what the staff did? Aren't they smarter than you as well as me? I mean that is what you are saying out one side of you mouth, but it seems to be a different story when you see your other side in the mirror.
Tour-Chip had JM all but signed with Oregon so the answer is yes. He changed his commitment when A&M offered closer to family when Sherman's QB coach insisted on an offer by his boss.
Then trade him if you don't like him. He will not get better until he is to the point where he can run a wide open, no huddle offense. That's what the Browns bought into if they truly scouted him and felt he was the best QB in the draft. But now they want a "game manager" (plow horse). Those are a dime a dozen and don't cost a first round pick. So why did they take him ?(yeah go ahead and try to put all the blame on the owner-Farmer and Pettine are not that cowed).
And how come so many of you that think he is shit are disputing what the staff did? Aren't they smarter than you as well as me? I mean that is what you are saying out one side of you mouth, but it seems to be a different story when you see your other side in the mirror.
Tour-Chip had JM all but signed with Oregon so the answer is yes. He changed his commitment when A&M offered closer to family when Sherman's QB coach insisted on an offer by his boss.
See, to me, thats just a matter of perspective....
What I was hearing from day one(prior to the draft), was that JF 's school yard game wouldnt(and doesn't) fly with NFL defenses.....
and, because of that, any team that took him would expect him to learn how to work from the pocket, check down, etc etc etc......and, watching the Gruden camp, reading all the JF quotes, watching his pro day and such, JF seemed to be agreeing and stressing that he got that.......
So, simply put, the Browns expect JF to learn how to be a pro first.....and "improvise" later.....there is NO professional football team, in the entire league, that's going to base their entire offense on the improvisations of a rookie.......
Stop worrying that the Browns wont play this guy......they'll get him in there when he's ready....and when they do, hopefully, he can use his receivers and running backs to get down the field, because thats what good QB's do to win....and stay healthy.......
and, when a play does go bust, hopefully he'll be able to cut one loose and show us he is a REAL QB who can also run ....
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Then trade him if you don't like him. He will not get better until he is to the point where he can run a wide open, no huddle offense. That's what the Browns bought into if they truly scouted him and felt he was the best QB in the draft. But now they want a "game manager" (plow horse). Those are a dime a dozen and don't cost a first round pick. So why did they take him ?(yeah go ahead and try to put all the blame on the owner-Farmer and Pettine are not that cowed).
And how come so many of you that think he is shit are disputing what the staff did? Aren't they smarter than you as well as me? I mean that is what you are saying out one side of you mouth, but it seems to be a different story when you see your other side in the mirror.
Tour-Chip had JM all but signed with Oregon so the answer is yes. He changed his commitment when A&M offered closer to family when Sherman's QB coach insisted on an offer by his boss.
Then trade him if you don't like him. He will not get better until he is to the point where he can run a wide open, no huddle offense. That's what the Browns bought into if they truly scouted him and felt he was the best QB in the draft. But now they want a "game manager" (plow horse). Those are a dime a dozen and don't cost a first round pick. So why did they take him ?(yeah go ahead and try to put all the blame on the owner-Farmer and Pettine are not that cowed).
Except, you are wrong. They want a guy that can understand the basics of the Pro game. A guy that knows the plays, can call the plays and execute the plays. Hell, a number of plays called were specifically called for JFFs style of play. But he still has to know what to do, where to go, how to see his receivers. He ain't there yet.
When he gets there, they will set him loose. They recognize his skill, they are just not ready to let him run amok
And how come so many of you that think he is shit are disputing what the staff did? Aren't they smarter than you as well as me? I mean that is what you are saying out one side of you mouth, but it seems to be a different story when you see your other side in the mirror.
Tour-Chip had JM all but signed with Oregon so the answer is yes. He changed his commitment when A&M offered closer to family when Sherman's QB coach insisted on an offer by his boss.
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Mudlfy-I'm really not THAT worried about the staff other than Shanahan not fully comprehending that it has to be a matter of both adapting the QB AND adapting the O to fit the skills the QB brings to the table. I see no reason Shanahan can't find a way to run his own offense, but do it in the hurry up, no huddle style with signals to the whole team coming from the sidelines.
I also find it somewhat humorous that those who accuse someone like me offering an opinion, of being a damn site dumber than staff, except of course when they themselves are chastising the staff for bringing in JF. So therefore staff is smarter than me, but dumber than the posters calling them stupid for wasting a pick. See anything strange about that process?
PS-and what about that defense of the Steelers that everyone says would eat JF alive getting punked by a Chip Kelly up tempo offense. That just didn't take place according to some above.
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Mudlfy-I'm really not THAT worried about the staff other than Shanahan not fully comprehending that it has to be a matter of both adapting the QB AND adapting the O to fit the skills the QB brings to the table. I see no reason Shanahan can't find a way to run his own offense, but do it in the hurry up, no huddle style with signals to the whole team coming from the sidelines.
I also find it somewhat humorous that those who accuse someone like me offering an opinion, of being a damn site dumber than staff, except of course when they themselves are chastising the staff for bringing in JF. So therefore staff is smarter than me, but dumber than the posters calling them stupid for wasting a pick. See anything strange about that process?
PS-and what about that defense of the Steelers that everyone says would eat JF alive getting punked by a Chip Kelly up tempo offense. That just didn't take place according to some above.
Mudlfy-I'm really not THAT worried about the staff other than Shanahan not fully comprehending that it has to be a matter of both adapting the QB AND adapting the O to fit the skills the QB brings to the table. I see no reason Shanahan can't find a way to run his own offense, but do it in the hurry up, no huddle style with signals to the whole team coming from the sidelines.
Im just taking a more patient approach I guess....I see Shanahan "trying" to mix it up right now, using the pistol and option, etc...and I assure you, those are in there for JF, not Hoyer. .....I also think a hurry up offense is GREAT...no huddle....call it at the line, etc, etc. I remember all the way back to Cincy's sugar huddle....and LOVE how Manning move his team, etc etc.
But, for JF, there is no way this could happen now. He cant even read a defense or call a play yet, let alone do it on the fly....heck, he doesn't even KNOW the plays, let alone be able to call them.........
So.....seriously.....hows he gonna do that now, unless we let him make it up as he goes???
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I disagree on a couple things.
First off - I think the Pistol is in there regardless if it's JM or Hoyer. There are some great advantages to the formation especially considering that the bootleg is something Shanahan likes to use quite a bit.
As for Manziel running a "wide open" system. This isn't like Madden, kid. Reads just don't magically become easier when you have more receivers. The guy has trouble coming off his first read and now you're talking about putting him in an offense that requires quick decisions? Brilliant....
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AG1969:
for all the disappointment you must be feeling you know we as fans don't make personnel decisions so 'we' can't trade him.
would i trade him now while he is still unproven to be a champ or a bust? yep. give me a first rounder and a player and it's done. not because i dislike the kid cuz i don't, only a pure biz decision. right now the odds are in favor of him not helping this team this year and given the other negatives (not going all in and being there in the off-season wanting to win the job..), jerrah, chip or anyone else could come a knocking and i'd be listening.
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Aggie fans have a lucky couple of years of relevancy and now they think they know everything and have the best players... Ugh.
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Well at least this got a few people thinking instead of writing off a QB who hasn't played a down yet in a regular season game. That is the part as a fan that really sickens me. He's a Browns player now. Treat him like one. So many are quick to write him off when all they have seen is a player trying to "think" through a new offense rather than run it like second nature with the added instincts to change it on the fly when it's obvious the play is breaking down. When he gets to that level then he has a chance to be something special. But first he needs a chance. Pettine at least seems to understand that. I heard today he will likely look hard at bringing JM into the game with special packages. I doubt we see that much the first 3 games unless there is significant garbage time.
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when he becomes the pocket passer pettine wants he will come in the game.
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Well at least this got a few people thinking instead of writing off a QB who hasn't played a down yet in a regular season game. That is the part as a fan that really sickens me. He's a Browns player now. Treat him like one. So many are quick to write him off when all they have seen is a player trying to "think" through a new offense rather than run it like second nature with the added instincts to change it on the fly when it's obvious the play is breaking down. When he gets to that level then he has a chance to be something special. But first he needs a chance. Pettine at least seems to understand that. I heard today he will likely look hard at bringing JM into the game with special packages. I doubt we see that much the first 3 games unless there is significant garbage time.
Well at least this got a few people thinking instead of writing off a QB who hasn't played a down yet in a regular season game. That is the part as a fan that really sickens me. He's a Browns player now. Treat him like one. So many are quick to write him off when all they have seen is a player trying to "think" through a new offense rather than run it like second nature with the added instincts to change it on the fly when it's obvious the play is breaking down. When he gets to that level then he has a chance to be something special. But first he needs a chance. Pettine at least seems to understand that. I heard today he will likely look hard at bringing JM into the game with special packages. I doubt we see that much the first 3 games unless there is significant garbage time.
The Browns spent a first round pick on JF.
They haven't written him off just yet.
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when he becomes the pocket passer pettine wants he will come in the game.
I agree. And this will happen when Pettine secures the R side of that line. I placed my suggestion for next year. Some were being too hateful to realize he's a great one, regardless of who the QB is then.
tiamat63-"This isn't like Madden, kid." LOL-nobody has called me a kid since the late 50s; And I hate the Madden game.
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when he becomes the pocket passer pettine wants he will come in the game.
I agree. And this will happen when Pettine secures the R side of that line. I placed my suggestion for next year. Some were being too hateful to realize he's a great one, regardless of who the QB is then.
tiamat63-"This isn't like Madden, kid." LOL-nobody has called me a kid since the late 50s; And I hate the Madden game.
By all means, tell us what makes him great? His ability to use his feet against the bottom 50 of college defenses? Was it him jumping head long into a pile of defenders against Duke and them being too dumb to tackle? Was it his >45% completion percentage against the only defenses he faced with a pulse?I agree. And this will happen when Pettine secures the R side of that line. I placed my suggestion for next year. Some were being too hateful to realize he's a great one, regardless of who the QB is then.
tiamat63-"This isn't like Madden, kid." LOL-nobody has called me a kid since the late 50s; And I hate the Madden game.
Oh wait - was it having two top 5 tackles protect his ass so he could run around like a Retard?
No, I got it - having Mike Evans and Swope bail out his shitty passes.
I'll say what I said an hour before we announced his name - he'll be a bigger bust than Quinn, Weedster and maybe even Couch. There is nothing about his game that translates to the highest levels of football and the one recent QB that tried of late could barely make it a full season in DC.
It a shame you've been watching the game this long and not able to identify talent.
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Well at least this got a few people thinking instead of writing off a QB who hasn't played a down yet in a regular season game. That is the part as a fan that really sickens me. He's a Browns player now. Treat him like one. So many are quick to write him off when all they have seen is a player trying to "think" through a new offense rather than run it like second nature with the added instincts to change it on the fly when it's obvious the play is breaking down. When he gets to that level then he has a chance to be something special. But first he needs a chance. Pettine at least seems to understand that. I heard today he will likely look hard at bringing JM into the game with special packages. I doubt we see that much the first 3 games unless there is significant garbage time.
Well at least this got a few people thinking instead of writing off a QB who hasn't played a down yet in a regular season game. That is the part as a fan that really sickens me. He's a Browns player now. Treat him like one. So many are quick to write him off when all they have seen is a player trying to "think" through a new offense rather than run it like second nature with the added instincts to change it on the fly when it's obvious the play is breaking down. When he gets to that level then he has a chance to be something special. But first he needs a chance. Pettine at least seems to understand that. I heard today he will likely look hard at bringing JM into the game with special packages. I doubt we see that much the first 3 games unless there is significant garbage time.
I think "real Browns Fans" (you know, the ones that have been here all along?) aren't writing him off....they are saying be patient, he's not ready. BUT, the "Johnny Fans" (note I didnt say Browns fans) keep screaming play him now, he's not getting a chance, you all dont know what you have, blah blah blah ....Really, it's all that blind Johnny Man Love what we want to write off....
I gotta admit, although I wouldnt have made the pick, I did get pretty excited when we drafted him....couldnt wait to see him actually....but, now, with all the JF lovers, extra media land slide, questionable character issues, poor play, etc...Im liking him on my team him less and less everyday....(that would change if he comes around)
I would like to point out that there are ZERO fans complaining about or writing off GILBERT, BITONIO, WEST or KIRKSEY....wonder why that is....
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By all means, tell us what makes him great? His ability to use his feet against the bottom 50 of college defenses? Was it him jumping head long into a pile of defenders against Duke and them being too dumb to tackle? Was it his >45% completion percentage against the only defenses he faced with a pulse?I agree. And this will happen when Pettine secures the R side of that line. I placed my suggestion for next year. Some were being too hateful to realize he's a great one, regardless of who the QB is then.
tiamat63-"This isn't like Madden, kid." LOL-nobody has called me a kid since the late 50s; And I hate the Madden game.
Oh wait - was it having two top 5 tackles protect his ass so he could run around like a Retard?
No, I got it - having Mike Evans and Swope bail out his shitty passes.
I'll say what I said an hour before we announced his name - he'll be a bigger bust than Quinn, Weedster and maybe even Couch. There is nothing about his game that translates to the highest levels of football and the one recent QB that tried of late could barely make it a full season in DC.
It a shame you've been watching the game this long and not able to identify talent.
By all means, tell us what makes him great? His ability to use his feet against the bottom 50 of college defenses? Was it him jumping head long into a pile of defenders against Duke and them being too dumb to tackle? Was it his >45% completion percentage against the only defenses he faced with a pulse?
Oh wait - was it having two top 5 tackles protect his ass so he could run around like a Retard?
No, I got it - having Mike Evans and Swope bail out his shitty passes.
I'll say what I said an hour before we announced his name - he'll be a bigger bust than Quinn, Weedster and maybe even Couch. There is nothing about his game that translates to the highest levels of football and the one recent QB that tried of late could barely make it a full season in DC.
It a shame you've been watching the game this long and not able to identify talent.
Don't let facts get in the way of your argument. Texans don't understand em good...
I'm not ready to write the kid off. But like mudfly I really didn't want him or the mess that followed. But now we have him and I'm hoping for the best but expecting the worst. He's a brown so I root for him no matter how hard he makes me not want to.
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when he becomes the pocket passer pettine wants he will come in the game.
I agree. And this will happen when Pettine secures the R side of that line. I placed my suggestion for next year. Some were being too hateful to realize he's a great one, regardless of who the QB is then.
tiamat63-"This isn't like Madden, kid." LOL-nobody has called me a kid since the late 50s; And I hate the Madden game.
I agree. And this will happen when Pettine secures the R side of that line. I placed my suggestion for next year.
i agree with your suggestion with the OL. i don't think schwartz has what it takes to be dominate against the great edge rushers of the NFL.
that being said who knows what we'll do with our first pick next year. common sense would say WR but we all know if things look bad at the QB position the FO might just want to play it safe and draft another one, just to have this whole process start all over again.
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