Observations from today's game.

DieHardBrownsFan

@tour2ma said:

That was my first impression as well, but after 2nd look not so much.

Are you saying that every play we are on Defense you watch Joe from the snap to the whistle?

If yes, then hats off and excuse me because that takes a lot of discipline... and a friend to tell you what happened on the rest of the field.

But if no, then you are no better judge of Joe's play than Joe TV-Viewer.

pssst...

4-1 for "our" team as a starter... if you give him credit for the Bills win last year... which I don't...

Actually Joe TV viewer has a much better view then being at the game. Close ups, replays etc. But Haden didn't look good yesterday or against Pittsburgh IMO.

jrb12711

Here's the thing with Jimmy Graham. You have to live with the guy getting the 10-12 yard completions across the middle. It's frustrating at the time, but a great TE with the ability to "box out" defenders on those sit down routes is going to win almost every time. I've heard it argued and tend to agree those types of TE routes with a good TE and QB combo are the second hardest pass to defend after the back shoulder fade.

With that being said, the only thing that really pissed me off was how we covered Jimmy in the red zone. It's blatant that Brees is looking for that guy, and you HAVE to take him away as an option. Putting a guy like Graham in single coverage (right before half) or losing him in motion (2nd half) is crazy to me. I was yelling at my TV both times how obvious the pass was going to be to him. Haden had good coverage on the TD right before half, but there's nothing anyone in the league can do to stop that.

Great win though, I still am happily shocked that this didn't turn into a "this is how the Browns lose" game.

darkside5

@miktoxic said:

so all you geniuses would not have paid him top 5 cb money and let him walk?

DB is the hardest position to play nowadays considering the league let's every WR push off right before the catch but they never make that call.

none of you working from your mom's birth canal to berea with all the training, hard work and clean off the field issues couldn't lick the sweat off haden's jock even though you'd love to.

OUCH!

tiamat63

Monday mornings suck. However Monday's after a Brownies win? They suck a little less.

Like said above, trying to stop a vertical threat TE on a stick or option route is damned hard. It's a high completion play and whats worse is that in this league, defenders can't be as physical as the offensive players are apparently being.

Trot out any CB onto Graham, Peterson, Revis, Sherman... none of them hold him in check when split out wide. Of course I didn't hear any of you bitching about Haden throwing a blanket on Cooks. That's the Saints second most dangerous player and he was silent when Joe was covering him. Speaking of secondary, can we give them some credit for making Colston a non-factor as well?

There are some major concerns I have with this defense. First being, where is Donte? I could swear we field 10 players at some points, the guy has been a great veteran presence, but aside from one awesome hit in the pre-season, not much else. Hoping that gets back on track soon. The next biggest being our front 3-4. They were owned all game. Big Phil and Rub especially. Desmond Bryant still needs time to get back to 100%, but he as well needs to give that pass rushing presence on the interior. Armonty had an awesome preseason and a couple good plays against Pittsburgh, but the rest has yet to translate to the regular season. I'm not too worried about him though, he's still a very young player.

The offense is ball control all the way. The lack of a vertical threat is a true handicap. However I"m more than happy with our pair of young running backs. West seems to grind out the tough yardage and Crowell is your home run threat. Great compliments to one another and as this team moves forward I think you'll see those two embrace that role. Their 'starting' spots within this offense will be interchangeable week in and week out depending on opponent. Aside from the sack taken, Hoyer didn't make any glarring mistakes. A couple errant throws, but nothing terrible. Its refreshing to see a QB that can take command of the huddle, and make a quick, safe decision with his passes. Get the skill positions set, such a Cameron healthy and Gordon back, then you have weapons who can go make plays for you.

This team has serious promise. That's what this game has shown, if anything. I still don't expect the world this season, but it is hard not to get excited about some of the results. Another influx of young talent, plus maintaining what we currently have and good things could be in store.

As it stands for the draft: I'll put my in depth thoughts on hold, but if I"m this front office, Leonard Williams is my primary target.

Tiott

You guys are so funny. Yall act like Brown and Graham are scrubs. Give me a guy who shuts down these dudes. I wait...

They're unstopable. Plus who are their qbs ? I mean give me a break.

What do you say when Joe shuts down AJ Green or whoever ? Please. Haden is elite. He just sometimes plays against instopable studs.

tml1138

@jrb12711 said:

Here's the thing with Jimmy Graham. You have to live with the guy getting the 10-12 yard completions across the middle. It's frustrating at the time, but a great TE with the ability to "box out" defenders on those sit down routes is going to win almost every time. I've heard it argued and tend to agree those types of TE routes with a good TE and QB combo are the second hardest pass to defend after the back shoulder fade.

With that being said, the only thing that really pissed me off was how we covered Jimmy in the red zone. It's blatant that Brees is looking for that guy, and you HAVE to take him away as an option. Putting a guy like Graham in single coverage (right before half) or losing him in motion (2nd half) is crazy to me. I was yelling at my TV both times how obvious the pass was going to be to him. Haden had good coverage on the TD right before half, but there's nothing anyone in the league can do to stop that.

Great win though, I still am happily shocked that this didn't turn into a "this is how the Browns lose" game.

I tend to agree with you. That's how I felt at the game. (I haven't watched the recording yet for 2nd looks however.) The trade off with double coverage on Graham means someone like Colston would see more passes, or their new WR Cooks.

ATENEARS

@diehardbrownsfan said:
Actually Joe TV viewer has a much better view then being at the game. Close ups, replays etc. But Haden didn't look good yesterday or against Pittsburgh IMO.

I'll disagree here. I actually mainly attend the games just so I can see the DB/WR action. TV gives you the tunnel vision view only unless the ball is thrown downfield, but so much more is seen away from the ball.

It's like when Timmy Couch was here and all the yapper heads on here used an excuse that he had no one to throw to, yet those of us in attendance watch one receiver after another be ignored by the boy wonder. He couldn't see beyond the LB's.

jrb12711

@tml1138 said:

I tend to agree with you. That's how I felt at the game. (I haven't watched the recording yet for 2nd looks however.) The trade off with double coverage on Graham means someone like Colston would see more passes, or their new WR Cooks.

Definitely true but I take our chances being weaker against the run/lesser WR than letting Graham beat you like that. It's the same model for me with any elite pass catcher, Megatron, Gronk, Green etc. Oh well, at least it didn't bite us in the end.

tml1138

@jrb12711 said:

Definitely true but I take our chances being weaker against the run/lesser WR than letting Graham beat you like that. It's the same model for me with any elite pass catcher, Megatron, Gronk, Green etc. Oh well, at least it didn't bite us in the end.

Yes in hindsight I agree more coverage of Graham. Had we done so, this article wouldn't exist:

http://www.nola.com/saints/index.ssf/2014/09/marques_colston_snaps_86-game_catch_streak_as_jimmy_graham_dominates_saints_short-passing_game.html

cuwoohio

Impressions......best crowd in the stadium in a long time, and the Browns fast start got the crowd in the the game right off the bat. Every time it started to look like the same old Browns and the fans sat on their hands, someone made a play and kept the momentum going. This is a team starting to put things together. They're not great by any means, but they're heading in the right direction and I saw some coaching during a game, which has been missing for many years. I can't wait to get back to the stadium this coming Sunday to see if they can keep progressing. Good times.

jrb12711

@tml1138 said:

Yes in hindsight I agree more coverage of Graham. Had we done so, this article wouldn't exist:

http://www.nola.com/saints/index.ssf/2014/09/marques_colston_snaps_86-game_catch_streak_as_jimmy_graham_dominates_saints_short-passing_game.html

Dang that's crazy. I have him on my bench in fantasy football and I really thought recanting the game and seeing the goose egg he was hurt and I didn't see it before the game. The guy has always been solid but it seems like Brees has lost confidence in him.

tml1138

I've had Colston in past years on FF teams. Feast or famine was what I experienced. I never looked into it, but I suspect those feast times were results of double coverage on Graham. Brees relies heavily on him, just like yesterday.

The Gipper

@browns149 said:

Haden had a chance to stop a RB for a 1 yard loss on 3rd and 1, and he failed. Haden got picked on all day.

The Saints made sure Haden was on Graham, because they knew Haden couldn't cover him.

So-called shutdown CB, don't get picked on like Haden does.

Haden is a good CB, but he is nowhere near a shutdown CB.

So-called shutdown CB's either make plays or they don't get thrown against, and Joe Haden isn't either. Teams LOOK to throw on him, and they make plays against him all day..

Well, riddle me this: the so called best CB in the entire league, Richard Sherman, was abused yesterday by Phillip Rivers and the Chargers. So, does his status drop down as well?

Face: rule changes, changes in ruled emphasis have put all DBs on the shit list of the NFL. They want the WRs essentially to be unencumbered when trying to catch the ball. This year there will probably be 5 WRs that will catch more balls for more yards than anyone has in the history of the NFL. Pinball football is the aim of the league. All DBs, even the best like Haden and Sherman, will suffer for it.

thenew23

@the-gipper said:

Well, riddle me this: the so called best CB in the entire league, Richard Sherman, was abused yesterday by Phillip Rivers and the Chargers. So, does his status drop down as well?

Face: rule changes, changes in ruled emphasis have put all DBs on the shit list of the NFL. They want the WRs essentially to be unencumbered when trying to catch the ball. This year there will probably be 5 WRs that will catch more balls for more yards than anyone has in the history of the NFL. Pinball football is the aim of the league. All DBs, even the best like Haden and Sherman, will suffer for it.

Agree. I'd love to hear who would take 5 CBs OVER Joe Haden, if they were drafting a team. Try it... Can you name 5 you'd rather have on your team?

Doubt it.

WalterWhite

@tiott said:
Haden is elite.

Joe Haden is not elite. He never has been. He's a good corner but not elite.

I love the guy because he's a Brown but farther from reality you could not be.

There were plays when Haden got burnt and HE WASN'T covering Graham. He got burned by Stills big time.

I really like Joe but his skills and ability are not as great as they are perceived to be by most Browns fans.

Haden has been out of position and often behind the receiver (Brown last week, Graham this week)

Zombo

Think of it this way: If Joe Haden got hurt yesterday and had to miss the rest of the season, how you feel about our defense's chance for success?

Z

WalterWhite

Zombo said:

Think of it this way: If Joe Haden got hurt yesterday and had to miss the rest of the season, how you feel about our defense's chance for success?

Z

We'd be fucked Zombo.

Look my philosophy is this...

A secondary is only as good as the front 7 allows it to be.

If you give a QB all day to throw, you could have Darrell Fucking Green and Deion Sanders as your CB's and someone is catching the ball.

If you can't stop the run then the secondary almost becomes irrelevant.

I just think there are times Haden gets himself into a bad position and loses ground and get's beat.

hoorta

@kvoethe said:
Find anyone who can shut down graham, christ, he has 2 td and 10 rec almost every week. He is the epitome of you cant stop him...contain him. Quit the haden bashing.

^+1

@harry-buffalo said:
Grahm is 6'7 and no one in the league can cover him. Didn't Haden completely shut down AJ Green last year? I think the only receiver I can think of that normally dominates him is Brown. That's one receiver out of all of them.

Exactly- these clowns think Haden's average because he couldn't cover Graham one on one? The guy only had 86 receptions for 1,200+ yards last year- he made the Pro Bowl for a reason. Any of you dorks ever try playing basketball against someone who's 8" taller than you? It's not pretty. To paraphrase what was said about Le Bron in BB- Graham is too fast for linebackers, and too big for corners. FYI- the Browns don't have a player on their team that's 6' 7" like Graham.

If you want to blame anyone, blame Pettine for not giving Joe some safety help. It was a trade off, they shut out Colston.

@browns149 said:

True, but when has Haden been Great?

He's not the guy that other teams avoid.

As said previously, he does a great job on AJ Green- and Green is for sure one of the top 10 wideouts in the NFL.

@thenew23 said:

Agree. I'd love to hear who would take 5 CBs OVER Joe Haden, if they were drafting a team. Try it... Can you name 5 you'd rather have on your team?

Doubt it.

Revis, Peterson, and Sherman. That's about it.

Clevfan4life

The Browns would have limited Grahams impact on the game if they had continued to wave their sacks in his facemask like they did in the 1st quarter and most of the 2nd. I understand with Mingo being hurt that our OLB'ers got a little tired later in the game. That's where some schemes need to be brought in like maybe moving Armonty to OLB in some situations so that Kruger and Sheard aren't playing every snap. We really should be grooming a 4th OLB and develop the kind of depth at that position that Indy has. If he could do it, I wouldn't mind seeing Armonty out there...any situations where he stays on the field can only be viewed positively as he's our best pass rusher. If we can find ways to have Taylor, Rubin, Mugshot and Armonty on the field at the same time.....Browns will have one of the most feared front 7's in football.

Mudfly

Here is a good article comparing Patterson, Sherman and Haden.....(cut and paste). I read several "grading" sites to see where these guys REALLY rate, based upon their #'s, and Sherman pretty much rates the best becasue no one throws his way, but Patterson is waaaaaay behind Haden. Haden, however,. rates #1 based upon what he's done WHEN the ball is thrown....

Richard Sherman has made his belief clear: in the NFL, respect is only shown when a team decides to give you the money that you are worth. Sherman had been quoted saying things of this sort many times, but it had been a lot more frequent of late, since he was a Super Bowl champion, still on his rookie contract, and by consensus (and his own anointing) one of if not the best cornerbacks in the game. Well a few days ago, the Seattle Seahawks made it very clear to Sherman just how much they respected him by signing him to a 4 year deal worth $57.4M with $40M in guarantees. This made him the highest paid cornerback in the game. However, his reign did not last long, as the Cleveland Browns signed Joe Haden to a 5 year deal worth $68M with $45M in guarantees, making him the highest paid cornerback in the game. But Haden may not want to get too attached to that title, as Patrick Peterson is now out looking for an extension. He has made it very clear that he thinks he is a better corner than Sherman and thus, as Sherman would put it, he deserves a little bit more “respect.”

When asked whether or not he thinks he is worth more than Sherman, Peterson responded, “We’ll see, got to ask the Cardinals. I mean, I think I am, but at the end of the day both sides have to agree to terms and we’ll see what those terms are and hopefully sooner than later.” For those of you who have trouble reading between the lines, that would be a resounding yes. Sherman, in typical Sherman fashion, responded on Twitter with this:

Credit: @RSherman_25,

Clearly, he disagrees with Peterson’s assessment. Now don’t go and start thinking that I am going to bash on Sherman. I love his game and I love his attitude. I love that he has confidence in himself and that he can back up his talk with a heck of a walk. All that being said, let’s give serious consideration to the fact that maybe Peterson is just blowing smoke. Maybe he and even Joe Haden are better cornerbacks than Sherman. Sure, interceptions are a vital component in the makings of a good corner back, but that’s not the only thing that corner backs need to do.

Credit: Zimbio

Football Outsiders is a site with a lot of advanced metrics on different players and teams. One such metric is adjusted yards per pass, which is essentially a measure of yards per pass that also takes into account sacks and losses of yards, as well as whether the pass resulted in a touchdown or interception. When you do all the calculations behind the screen, you find that Joe Haden ranked 7^th in adjusted yards per pass, Patrick Peterson ranked 13^th, and Richard Sherman failed to crack the top 15. Another stat that Football Outsiders calculates is adjusted success rate, which essentially tracks how many plays a player made which stopped their opponent from gaining yards or “having success on.” Joe Haden is the only of the trio of defensive backs to crack the top 15.

Going back to the more basic stats, last year, Sherman did lead the bunch in interceptions with 8, Haden and Patterson both had 3. However, Haden led them all in pass deflections which are nearly as valuable with 20. Sherman had 16 and Patterson had 13. So by a lot of metrics, it seems like Haden can be considered better than Sherman. Yes, Sherman was targeted the least of any corner, but a lot of the stats adjusted for targets still favor Haden and, to some extent, Peterson. I am less willing to claim that Peterson is better, but at worst, he is close and plays with a less talented defensive pass rush. According to Football outsiders, the Seahawks rank 7^th in defensive pass rush, while the Cardinals are 12^th and the Browns an even lower 21^st, making Haden’s success even more impressive.

Credit: Fox Sports

The jury is out on the Peterson vs. Sherman debate, but I would at least be willing to say that Joe Haden deserved his contract, putting up arguably better numbers on a defense with much less overall talent surrounding him. While Sherman may not want to admit it, maybe Haden and Peterson are worth the “respect” that their teams are bestowing upon them.