Observations from today's game.

tml1138

@jrb12711 said:

Definitely true but I take our chances being weaker against the run/lesser WR than letting Graham beat you like that. It's the same model for me with any elite pass catcher, Megatron, Gronk, Green etc. Oh well, at least it didn't bite us in the end.

Yes in hindsight I agree more coverage of Graham. Had we done so, this article wouldn't exist:

http://www.nola.com/saints/index.ssf/2014/09/marques_colston_snaps_86-game_catch_streak_as_jimmy_graham_dominates_saints_short-passing_game.html

cuwoohio

Impressions......best crowd in the stadium in a long time, and the Browns fast start got the crowd in the the game right off the bat. Every time it started to look like the same old Browns and the fans sat on their hands, someone made a play and kept the momentum going. This is a team starting to put things together. They're not great by any means, but they're heading in the right direction and I saw some coaching during a game, which has been missing for many years. I can't wait to get back to the stadium this coming Sunday to see if they can keep progressing. Good times.

jrb12711

@tml1138 said:

Yes in hindsight I agree more coverage of Graham. Had we done so, this article wouldn't exist:

http://www.nola.com/saints/index.ssf/2014/09/marques_colston_snaps_86-game_catch_streak_as_jimmy_graham_dominates_saints_short-passing_game.html

Dang that's crazy. I have him on my bench in fantasy football and I really thought recanting the game and seeing the goose egg he was hurt and I didn't see it before the game. The guy has always been solid but it seems like Brees has lost confidence in him.

tml1138

I've had Colston in past years on FF teams. Feast or famine was what I experienced. I never looked into it, but I suspect those feast times were results of double coverage on Graham. Brees relies heavily on him, just like yesterday.

The Gipper

@browns149 said:

Haden had a chance to stop a RB for a 1 yard loss on 3rd and 1, and he failed. Haden got picked on all day.

The Saints made sure Haden was on Graham, because they knew Haden couldn't cover him.

So-called shutdown CB, don't get picked on like Haden does.

Haden is a good CB, but he is nowhere near a shutdown CB.

So-called shutdown CB's either make plays or they don't get thrown against, and Joe Haden isn't either. Teams LOOK to throw on him, and they make plays against him all day..

Well, riddle me this: the so called best CB in the entire league, Richard Sherman, was abused yesterday by Phillip Rivers and the Chargers. So, does his status drop down as well?

Face: rule changes, changes in ruled emphasis have put all DBs on the shit list of the NFL. They want the WRs essentially to be unencumbered when trying to catch the ball. This year there will probably be 5 WRs that will catch more balls for more yards than anyone has in the history of the NFL. Pinball football is the aim of the league. All DBs, even the best like Haden and Sherman, will suffer for it.

thenew23

@the-gipper said:

Well, riddle me this: the so called best CB in the entire league, Richard Sherman, was abused yesterday by Phillip Rivers and the Chargers. So, does his status drop down as well?

Face: rule changes, changes in ruled emphasis have put all DBs on the shit list of the NFL. They want the WRs essentially to be unencumbered when trying to catch the ball. This year there will probably be 5 WRs that will catch more balls for more yards than anyone has in the history of the NFL. Pinball football is the aim of the league. All DBs, even the best like Haden and Sherman, will suffer for it.

Agree. I'd love to hear who would take 5 CBs OVER Joe Haden, if they were drafting a team. Try it... Can you name 5 you'd rather have on your team?

Doubt it.

WalterWhite

@tiott said:
Haden is elite.

Joe Haden is not elite. He never has been. He's a good corner but not elite.

I love the guy because he's a Brown but farther from reality you could not be.

There were plays when Haden got burnt and HE WASN'T covering Graham. He got burned by Stills big time.

I really like Joe but his skills and ability are not as great as they are perceived to be by most Browns fans.

Haden has been out of position and often behind the receiver (Brown last week, Graham this week)

Zombo

Think of it this way: If Joe Haden got hurt yesterday and had to miss the rest of the season, how you feel about our defense's chance for success?

Z

WalterWhite

Zombo said:

Think of it this way: If Joe Haden got hurt yesterday and had to miss the rest of the season, how you feel about our defense's chance for success?

Z

We'd be fucked Zombo.

Look my philosophy is this...

A secondary is only as good as the front 7 allows it to be.

If you give a QB all day to throw, you could have Darrell Fucking Green and Deion Sanders as your CB's and someone is catching the ball.

If you can't stop the run then the secondary almost becomes irrelevant.

I just think there are times Haden gets himself into a bad position and loses ground and get's beat.

hoorta

@kvoethe said:
Find anyone who can shut down graham, christ, he has 2 td and 10 rec almost every week. He is the epitome of you cant stop him...contain him. Quit the haden bashing.

^+1

@harry-buffalo said:
Grahm is 6'7 and no one in the league can cover him. Didn't Haden completely shut down AJ Green last year? I think the only receiver I can think of that normally dominates him is Brown. That's one receiver out of all of them.

Exactly- these clowns think Haden's average because he couldn't cover Graham one on one? The guy only had 86 receptions for 1,200+ yards last year- he made the Pro Bowl for a reason. Any of you dorks ever try playing basketball against someone who's 8" taller than you? It's not pretty. To paraphrase what was said about Le Bron in BB- Graham is too fast for linebackers, and too big for corners. FYI- the Browns don't have a player on their team that's 6' 7" like Graham.

If you want to blame anyone, blame Pettine for not giving Joe some safety help. It was a trade off, they shut out Colston.

@browns149 said:

True, but when has Haden been Great?

He's not the guy that other teams avoid.

As said previously, he does a great job on AJ Green- and Green is for sure one of the top 10 wideouts in the NFL.

@thenew23 said:

Agree. I'd love to hear who would take 5 CBs OVER Joe Haden, if they were drafting a team. Try it... Can you name 5 you'd rather have on your team?

Doubt it.

Revis, Peterson, and Sherman. That's about it.

Clevfan4life

The Browns would have limited Grahams impact on the game if they had continued to wave their sacks in his facemask like they did in the 1st quarter and most of the 2nd. I understand with Mingo being hurt that our OLB'ers got a little tired later in the game. That's where some schemes need to be brought in like maybe moving Armonty to OLB in some situations so that Kruger and Sheard aren't playing every snap. We really should be grooming a 4th OLB and develop the kind of depth at that position that Indy has. If he could do it, I wouldn't mind seeing Armonty out there...any situations where he stays on the field can only be viewed positively as he's our best pass rusher. If we can find ways to have Taylor, Rubin, Mugshot and Armonty on the field at the same time.....Browns will have one of the most feared front 7's in football.

Mudfly

Here is a good article comparing Patterson, Sherman and Haden.....(cut and paste). I read several "grading" sites to see where these guys REALLY rate, based upon their #'s, and Sherman pretty much rates the best becasue no one throws his way, but Patterson is waaaaaay behind Haden. Haden, however,. rates #1 based upon what he's done WHEN the ball is thrown....

Richard Sherman has made his belief clear: in the NFL, respect is only shown when a team decides to give you the money that you are worth. Sherman had been quoted saying things of this sort many times, but it had been a lot more frequent of late, since he was a Super Bowl champion, still on his rookie contract, and by consensus (and his own anointing) one of if not the best cornerbacks in the game. Well a few days ago, the Seattle Seahawks made it very clear to Sherman just how much they respected him by signing him to a 4 year deal worth $57.4M with $40M in guarantees. This made him the highest paid cornerback in the game. However, his reign did not last long, as the Cleveland Browns signed Joe Haden to a 5 year deal worth $68M with $45M in guarantees, making him the highest paid cornerback in the game. But Haden may not want to get too attached to that title, as Patrick Peterson is now out looking for an extension. He has made it very clear that he thinks he is a better corner than Sherman and thus, as Sherman would put it, he deserves a little bit more “respect.”

When asked whether or not he thinks he is worth more than Sherman, Peterson responded, “We’ll see, got to ask the Cardinals. I mean, I think I am, but at the end of the day both sides have to agree to terms and we’ll see what those terms are and hopefully sooner than later.” For those of you who have trouble reading between the lines, that would be a resounding yes. Sherman, in typical Sherman fashion, responded on Twitter with this:

Credit: @RSherman_25,

Clearly, he disagrees with Peterson’s assessment. Now don’t go and start thinking that I am going to bash on Sherman. I love his game and I love his attitude. I love that he has confidence in himself and that he can back up his talk with a heck of a walk. All that being said, let’s give serious consideration to the fact that maybe Peterson is just blowing smoke. Maybe he and even Joe Haden are better cornerbacks than Sherman. Sure, interceptions are a vital component in the makings of a good corner back, but that’s not the only thing that corner backs need to do.

Credit: Zimbio

Football Outsiders is a site with a lot of advanced metrics on different players and teams. One such metric is adjusted yards per pass, which is essentially a measure of yards per pass that also takes into account sacks and losses of yards, as well as whether the pass resulted in a touchdown or interception. When you do all the calculations behind the screen, you find that Joe Haden ranked 7^th in adjusted yards per pass, Patrick Peterson ranked 13^th, and Richard Sherman failed to crack the top 15. Another stat that Football Outsiders calculates is adjusted success rate, which essentially tracks how many plays a player made which stopped their opponent from gaining yards or “having success on.” Joe Haden is the only of the trio of defensive backs to crack the top 15.

Going back to the more basic stats, last year, Sherman did lead the bunch in interceptions with 8, Haden and Patterson both had 3. However, Haden led them all in pass deflections which are nearly as valuable with 20. Sherman had 16 and Patterson had 13. So by a lot of metrics, it seems like Haden can be considered better than Sherman. Yes, Sherman was targeted the least of any corner, but a lot of the stats adjusted for targets still favor Haden and, to some extent, Peterson. I am less willing to claim that Peterson is better, but at worst, he is close and plays with a less talented defensive pass rush. According to Football outsiders, the Seahawks rank 7^th in defensive pass rush, while the Cardinals are 12^th and the Browns an even lower 21^st, making Haden’s success even more impressive.

Credit: Fox Sports

The jury is out on the Peterson vs. Sherman debate, but I would at least be willing to say that Joe Haden deserved his contract, putting up arguably better numbers on a defense with much less overall talent surrounding him. While Sherman may not want to admit it, maybe Haden and Peterson are worth the “respect” that their teams are bestowing upon them.

D Bone

The run defense is my main concern. So far, it's been awful at best.

hoorta

What I take away from this game is the team didn't quit. It's said you have to learn how to win, and build up confidence. Yes, there's 14 games left, and no reason to celebrate like we won the Super Bowl. But las home opener win was 10 years ago.

Anyone think old Pat Shur-loss wouldn't have kicked a field goal on that 4th and one?

Yes D Bone, we need to improve the run D- a lot.

And Atenears, it makes the 200 mile drive back to Dayton a hell of a lot more pleasant when we win. I would not have been a happy camper last night spending 90 minutes to drive 8 miles because they had I-71 shut down to one lane for construction, if they had lost.

EDIT: PS Dansby is a HUGE upgrade over Jackson. This years draft class has the potential to be one of the best ever.

PPS- looks like RG Knee is going to miss some significant time. I rolled my ankle like that once, and I'd bet the ranch he has a torn ligament or two. I'm thinking I should write a comment on Walter Football if he still thinks Griffin was worth three #1s and a second. We dodged a major bullet on that one. Essentially, it's who's going to have the better career now, RG III, or Manziel?

WalterWhite

I def agree we would use the safety help (especially from Whitner) and could use a pass rushing defensive lineman.

I also think an ILB would be a great addition for the future.

Mudfly

@walterwhite said:

I also think an ILB would be a great addition for the future.

..me too....Kirksey and Dansby were great adds, but Dansby only has a few ticks left......start developing his replacement now....

Tour2ma

@diehardbrownsfan said:
Actually Joe TV viewer has a much better view then being at the game. Close ups, replays etc. But Haden didn't look good yesterday or against Pittsburgh IMO.

@atenears said:
I'll disagree here. I actually mainly attend the games just so I can see the DB/WR action. TV gives you the tunnel vision view only unless the ball is thrown downfield, but so much more is seen away from the ball.

Kumbaya moment? Agree ATE...

TV only shows a CB's failures or successes... and the former out number the latter for even the best CBs. TV rarely shows the bulk of a CB's day because if he is doing his job, then the ball is not thrown in his direction.

And the TV camera follows the ball...

Tour2ma

@walterwhite said:
I also think an ILB would be a great addition for the future.

@mudfly said:
..me too....Kirksey and Dansby were great adds, but Dansby only has a few ticks left......start developing his replacement now....

... me three... but also put me down for a three-down OLB, please...

Erie Dawg

@browns149 said:
No one on either team got called for DB holding,touching, grabbing.

New Orleans in Q1 8:09 P.ROBINSON Defensive pass interference.

New Orleans in Q4 00:13 P. ROBINSON defensive holding.

miktoxic

man we coulda beat the seahawks by 17 and people would still have something to bitch about.

since the manziel story has been put to bed i guess the only thing walter has to complain about now is our pro bowl CB.

and you're wrong about him just like you were wrong about manziel.

HA!