Jonathan Paul Manziel
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All I'm saying is that almost all here professed to support whomever was the QB, but he comes in and has a horrible first game and a Browns lynch mob develops overnight. I said even before that first game this was an unfair situation to place him in this late in the season. And I said he would need another great performance by the D and the O line to even give him a decent chance. No one here seems to understand either of those two concepts. Yes, JF let us and himself down, but even worse this coaching staff and team let him down in not giving him every chance to succeed.
So instead of going after ALL of them, this forum has focused on one rookie that they have shown nothing but disdain for since he joined the team.
If you don't like him and you don't want him then send him some place that gives him a chance to develop. My biggest gripe is that Pettine appeared to be doing just that until last Sunday. So a 3 game trial and off he goes into the sunset, another QB DOA in Cleveland. Who would have thought that would ever happen? Certainly not the rest of the country that already thinks Cleveland is where QB's go to die.
I guarantee you that 95% of his A&M fans saw this coming before he was ever drafted. The sentiment there was "anywhere but Cleveland". That is the reputation the Browns carry, justified or not. 21 and counting should tell you something is drastically wrong and that maybe, just maybe, Bernie is 100% spot on when he says we need to quit ruining these kids.
You want me to be objective. Then it's time you look in the mirror and try exactly the same.
I said even before that first game this was an unfair situation to place him in this late in the season..Dumbest thing Ive ever heard. "unfair" to a back up to play him? Aren't most chomping at the bit for an opportunity?
And I said he would need another great performance by the D and the O line to even give him a decent chance....A superstar needs GREAT performances from those around him just to look decent?
No one here seems to understand either of those two concepts.
Yes, JF let us and himself down...< do you understand this concept? He let us down, but we're bad for saying it?
If you don't like him and you don't want him then send him some place that gives him a chance to develop...Um, news flash....Cleveland fans dont "send" players anywhere....including the shit can...
I guarantee you that 95% of his A&M fans saw this coming before he was ever drafted....I guarantee you are wrong and that 95% of them moved on a year ago....like we've done here with the hundreds of Ohio State players that got drafted......
The sentiment there was "anywhere but Cleveland"....Too bad your boy didn't feel the same. My memory is that HE texted Jimmy begging him to "come get me".....
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@junkyard-dawg said:
Yet since being drafted we've had to listen to his queer entourage on every Forum and in the Media suck his dick as a Savior. He isn't and in the process these morons helped to alienate and mentally fuck over the guy WITH the high ceiling and potential on this team.
Been there, seen this process play out once before and am sick of it.
Really good take.
For those saying : playing him will ruin him(what??!!??) or the fans bitching will ruin him(what?!?)....
Maybe the real truth is the manzielots created such a HIGH LEVEL of expectation that he could never meet it now.
And instead of blaming the fans, coaches, Cleveland, the owner, the O line and the defense for Johnnys bad play.....they ought to consider the lofty expectations they created as the primary reason everyone feels so let down
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Its not as if we want JFF to fail or think it's funny
It's like when I see an old lady fall down on the sidewalk. Sure, I want to laugh....
But, then I think - what if there was an ant on the sidewalk and he got squished?
Not so funny now, is it?
Its not as if we want JFF to fail or think it's funny
It's like when I see an old lady fall down on the sidewalk. Sure, I want to laugh....
But, then I think - what if there was an ant on the sidewalk and he got squished?
Not so funny now, is it?
Lol! I always enjoy your thought provoking posts.
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You want me to be objective. Then it's time you look in the mirror and try exactly the same.
Yup... anger. As for the 95%... had a very interesting convo at a Christmas party Saturday with a 5th year Senior at TAMU. Based on that discussion it would seem that no where near "95% of A&M fans" even give two shits about Manziel let alone what the Browns might do to him.
Longtime lurker...
Now that's how to make an entrance. Welcome to the light...
As a longtime lurker, you also surely know that most of the Manziel rejection rage is aimed at his fans, and not him. Perhaps at season's end we'll have the 3-game data to see where JM falls on your list.
Couple questions:
Do you happen to know where those 3-game stretches fell within the season?
Were they consecutive starts?
Now that's how to make an entrance. Welcome to the light...
As a longtime lurker, you also surely know that most of the Manziel rejection rage is aimed at his fans, and not him. Perhaps at season's end we'll have the 3-game data to see where JM falls on your list.
Couple questions:
Do you happen to know where those 3-game stretches fell within the season?
Were they consecutive starts?
I appreciate the welcome.
Those three games stretches varied with regards to what point in the season they came in, but once they began they were almost universally consecutive starting experiences. From my anecdotal observation, first-round quarterbacks typically grant their coaching staff the luxury of more time and patience from ownership. As a coach, starting a rookie quarterback gives you a ready-made excuse to ownership and the fanbase as they endure mounting losses ("he's only going to get better"), therefore I understand it to be almost an act of self-preservation to keep starting the rookie for an extended audition.
It's not out of convenience that I liken Manziel's situation most closely to that of Eli Manning in 2004. The Giants were 5-4 with Kurt Warner having put up solid numbers but anyone more than a casual observer knew that while the Giants were winning with Kurt, there clearly was a ceiling with Warner that fell short of the ultimate goal for any franchise, a Super Bowl. I had a similar feeling with this season's Browns and Hoyer (*ducks for cover*). So Coughlin made the switch to Manning and Eli rewarded him with horrible performances through his first season and well into his second season. Coughlin effectively destroyed his chances of making the playoffs by turning over the reigns to Eli but he wasnt operating the team within a one game or even a one season vacuum, rather he was trying to set the foundation for more sustainable long-term success. It worked for the Giants, its failed for other franchises.
Now, when I read posts from well respected posters such as Zombo I empathize and agree with what I think might be their main point, which is that Hoyer has given the Browns the best chance to win any game this season. Where I believe I differ is in the timeframe of my perspective. I dont view each game or even this season in a vacuum because I dont think that the ceiling of this season's Browns ever involved a Super Bowl. Rather, I take a longer holistic approach where I am willing to experience the growning pains of a young quarterback with the pedigree of Manziel, as embarrassingly lame as his debut was, for the hope that the Browns are building something that can culminate into something special and sustainable for a decade to come.
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Now that's how to make an entrance. Welcome to the light...
As a longtime lurker, you also surely know that most of the Manziel rejection rage is aimed at his fans, and not him. Perhaps at season's end we'll have the 3-game data to see where JM falls on your list.
Couple questions:
Do you happen to know where those 3-game stretches fell within the season?
Were they consecutive starts?
I appreciate the welcome.
Those three games stretches varied with regards to what point in the season they came in, but once they began they were almost universally consecutive starting experiences. From my anecdotal observation, first-round quarterbacks typically grant their coaching staff the luxury of more time and patience from ownership. As a coach, starting a rookie quarterback gives you a ready-made excuse to ownership and the fanbase as they endure mounting losses ("he's only going to get better"), therefore I understand it to be almost an act of self-preservation to keep starting the rookie for an extended audition.
It's not out of convenience that I liken Manziel's situation most closely to that of Eli Manning in 2004. The Giants were 5-4 with Kurt Warner having put up solid numbers but anyone more than a casual observer knew that while the Giants were winning with Kurt, there clearly was a ceiling with Warner that fell short of the ultimate goal for any franchise, a Super Bowl. I had a similar feeling with this season's Browns and Hoyer (*ducks for cover*). So Coughlin made the switch to Manning and Eli rewarded him with horrible performances through his first season and well into his second season. Coughlin effectively destroyed his chances of making the playoffs by turning over the reigns to Eli but he wasnt operating the team within a one game or even a one season vacuum, rather he was trying to set the foundation for more sustainable long-term success. It worked for the Giants, its failed for other franchises.
Now, when I read posts from well respected posters such as Zombo I empathize and agree with what I think might be their main point, which is that Hoyer has given the Browns the best chance to win any game this season. Where I believe I differ is in the timeframe of my perspective. I dont view each game or even this season in a vacuum because I dont think that the ceiling of this season's Browns ever involved a Super Bowl. Rather, I take a longer holistic approach where I am willing to experience the growning pains of a young quarterback with the pedigree of Manziel, as embarrassingly lame as his debut was, for the hope that the Browns are building something that can culminate into something special and sustainable for a decade to come.
Now, when I read posts from well respected posters such as Zombo I empathize and agree with what I think might be their main point, which is that Hoyer has given the Browns the best chance to win any game this season. Where I believe I differ is in the timeframe of my perspective. I dont view each game or even this season in a vacuum because I dont think that the ceiling of this season's Browns ever involved a Super Bowl. Rather, I take a longer holistic approach where I am willing to experience the growning pains of a young quarterback with the pedigree of Manziel, as embarrassingly lame as his debut was, for the hope that the Browns are building something that can culminate into something special and sustainable for a decade to come.
First...don't say Zombo is a "respected poster" it goes to his head and that's already big enough.
Seriously though... Therein lies the problem, is Manziel the next Eli Manning? Pretty good QB who can get hot from time to time and lead a super bowl run? Or is he the next Troy Smith or Danny Wuerffel, great college QB who can't play at the NFL level?
The biggest issue with Sunday was not only that he played like horse shit, he didn't show one thing that looked like he has the ability to be a NFL QB. He looked like a high school kid trying to survive in the NFL. Maybe that's just one game or maybe not but I think we'll have a pretty good idea after the next 2 games.
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Now, when I read posts from well respected posters such as Zombo I empathize and agree with what I think might be their main point, which is that Hoyer has given the Browns the best chance to win any game this season. Where I believe I differ is in the timeframe of my perspective. I dont view each game or even this season in a vacuum because I dont think that the ceiling of this season's Browns ever involved a Super Bowl. Rather, I take a longer holistic approach where I am willing to experience the growning pains of a young quarterback with the pedigree of Manziel, as embarrassingly lame as his debut was, for the hope that the Browns are building something that can culminate into something special and sustainable for a decade to come.
First...don't say Zombo is a "respected poster" it goes to his head and that's already big enough.
Seriously though... Therein lies the problem, is Manziel the next Eli Manning? Pretty good QB who can get hot from time to time and lead a super bowl run? Or is he the next Troy Smith or Danny Wuerffel, great college QB who can't play at the NFL level?
The biggest issue with Sunday was not only that he played like horse shit, he didn't show one thing that looked like he has the ability to be a NFL QB. He looked like a high school kid trying to survive in the NFL. Maybe that's just one game or maybe not but I think we'll have a pretty good idea after the next 2 games.
First...don't say Zombo is a "respected poster" it goes to his head and that's already big enough.
Seriously though... Therein lies the problem, is Manziel the next Eli Manning? Pretty good QB who can get hot from time to time and lead a super bowl run? Or is he the next Troy Smith or Danny Wuerffel, great college QB who can't play at the NFL level?
The biggest issue with Sunday was not only that he played like horse shit, he didn't show one thing that looked like he has the ability to be a NFL QB. He looked like a high school kid trying to survive in the NFL. Maybe that's just one game or maybe not but I think we'll have a pretty good idea after the next 2 games.
The answer to your question, or the ability to answer it really is the Holy Grail for anyone associated with a professional football franchise. How can you seperate those that can master the learning curve and go from bad-to-great from those that never progress? I think we'd all agree that collegiate production is next to worthless as an indicator without proper context. Eli played in a pro-style offense at Ole Miss and left college after his senior year (not including redshirt). Clearly we would imagine that this would have better prepared him for the NFL but he still struggled mightily. Stafford declared early but played in a pro-style offense. Does this reflect better on Manziel having struggled, as a younger rookie inexperienced in an NFL offense? Who the heck knows.
In my opinion the real answer to your question of whether Manziel, or any rookie QB for that matter, can be the next Manning or Brees or whomever after suffering from poor performance early on is if they are intelligent enough, committed enough, and have the physical ability to learn and make the necessary adjustments throughout their career. I dont question Manziel's intelligence (wonderlick, etc), I have slight concerns regarding his physical ability (height), and I'm cautiously optomistic that the perception of his off-field committment doesn't match his true committment to getting better. Will that demonstrate itself over the next week weeks? Hopefully to the coaching staff it will, but it may not translate directly to what we see on Sundays just yet. I wouldn't feel comfortable writing off a 22 year old QB with a nice pedigree after 3 games but I think I'd have a much better indication on their ability to improve after an off-season of prepartion as starter and a few games. But, alas....I dont get paid to make those decisions
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First...don't say Zombo is a "respected poster" it goes to his head and that's already big enough.
Seriously though... Therein lies the problem, is Manziel the next Eli Manning? Pretty good QB who can get hot from time to time and lead a super bowl run? Or is he the next Troy Smith or Danny Wuerffel, great college QB who can't play at the NFL level?
The biggest issue with Sunday was not only that he played like horse shit, he didn't show one thing that looked like he has the ability to be a NFL QB. He looked like a high school kid trying to survive in the NFL. Maybe that's just one game or maybe not but I think we'll have a pretty good idea after the next 2 games.
The answer to your question, or the ability to answer it really is the Holy Grail for anyone associated with a professional football franchise. How can you seperate those that can master the learning curve and go from bad-to-great from those that never progress? I think we'd all agree that collegiate production is next to worthless as an indicator without proper context. Eli played in a pro-style offense at Ole Miss and left college after his senior year (not including redshirt). Clearly we would imagine that this would have better prepared him for the NFL but he still struggled mightily. Stafford declared early but played in a pro-style offense. Does this reflect better on Manziel having struggled, as a younger rookie inexperienced in an NFL offense? Who the heck knows.
In my opinion the real answer to your question of whether Manziel, or any rookie QB for that matter, can be the next Manning or Brees or whomever after suffering from poor performance early on is if they are intelligent enough, committed enough, and have the physical ability to learn and make the necessary adjustments throughout their career. I dont question Manziel's intelligence (wonderlick, etc), I have slight concerns regarding his physical ability (height), and I'm cautiously optomistic that the perception of his off-field committment doesn't match his true committment to getting better. Will that demonstrate itself over the next week weeks? Hopefully to the coaching staff it will, but it may not translate directly to what we see on Sundays just yet. I wouldn't feel comfortable writing off a 22 year old QB with a nice pedigree after 3 games but I think I'd have a much better indication on their ability to improve after an off-season of prepartion as starter and a few games. But, alas....I dont get paid to make those decisions
In my opinion the real answer to your question of whether Manziel, or any rookie QB for that matter, can be the next Manning or Brees or whomever after suffering from poor performance early on is if they are intelligent enough, committed enough, and have the physical ability to learn and make the necessary adjustments throughout their career. I dont question Manziel's intelligence (wonderlick, etc), I have slight concerns regarding his physical ability (height), and I'm cautiously optomistic that the perception of his off-field committment doesn't match his true committment to getting better. Will that demonstrate itself over the next week weeks? Hopefully to the coaching staff it will, but it may not translate directly to what we see on Sundays just yet. I wouldn't feel comfortable writing off a 22 year old QB with a nice pedigree after 3 games but I think I'd have a much better indication on their ability to improve after an off-season of prepartion as starter and a few games. But, alas....I dont get paid to make those decisions
I'd feel better about the chances of him improving to the Eli Manning level (which if he can get to that level would be better than anything we've seen in Cleveland in years) if he could show just a few flashes of being able to compete at this level. He showed nothing at all on Sunday. Hopefully that was an aberration and we'll see how he recovers this week. Another performance like this past one and it doesn't bode well for his future in the NFL.
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All I'm saying is that almost all here professed to support whomever was the QB, but he comes in and has a horrible first game and a Browns lynch mob develops overnight. I said even before that first game this was an unfair situation to place him in this late in the season. And I said he would need another great performance by the D and the O line to even give him a decent chance. No one here seems to understand either of those two concepts. Yes, JF let us and himself down, but even worse this coaching staff and team let him down in not giving him every chance to succeed.
So instead of going after ALL of them, this forum has focused on one rookie that they have shown nothing but disdain for since he joined the team.
If you don't like him and you don't want him then send him some place that gives him a chance to develop. My biggest gripe is that Pettine appeared to be doing just that until last Sunday. So a 3 game trial and off he goes into the sunset, another QB DOA in Cleveland. Who would have thought that would ever happen? Certainly not the rest of the country that already thinks Cleveland is where QB's go to die.
I guarantee you that 95% of his A&M fans saw this coming before he was ever drafted. The sentiment there was "anywhere but Cleveland". That is the reputation the Browns carry, justified or not. 21 and counting should tell you something is drastically wrong and that maybe, just maybe, Bernie is 100% spot on when he says we need to quit ruining these kids.
You want me to be objective. Then it's time you look in the mirror and try exactly the same.
All I'm saying is that almost all here professed to support whomever was the QB, but he comes in and has a horrible first game and a Browns lynch mob develops overnight. I said even before that first game this was an unfair situation to place him in this late in the season. And I said he would need another great performance by the D and the O line to even give him a decent chance. No one here seems to understand either of those two concepts. Yes, JF let us and himself down, but even worse this coaching staff and team let him down in not giving him every chance to succeed.
So instead of going after ALL of them, this forum has focused on one rookie that they have shown nothing but disdain for since he joined the team.
If you don't like him and you don't want him then send him some place that gives him a chance to develop. My biggest gripe is that Pettine appeared to be doing just that until last Sunday. So a 3 game trial and off he goes into the sunset, another QB DOA in Cleveland. Who would have thought that would ever happen? Certainly not the rest of the country that already thinks Cleveland is where QB's go to die.
I guarantee you that 95% of his A&M fans saw this coming before he was ever drafted. The sentiment there was "anywhere but Cleveland". That is the reputation the Browns carry, justified or not. 21 and counting should tell you something is drastically wrong and that maybe, just maybe, Bernie is 100% spot on when he says we need to quit ruining these kids.
You want me to be objective. Then it's time you look in the mirror and try exactly the same.
Ag, Browns fans have never just banged on one player- a lot of corners have trashed anyone who isn't playing well- (or coaching well) Fer instance Joe Haden was getting slammed for a poor start, and I'd say he's a mortal lock to make the Pro Bowl again this year. People have been calling Justin Gilbert a bust all year, even though he was drafted higher than Manziel. I haven't forgotten some corners wanted Pettine fired before the regular season even started. .
OK, the Bengals game the defense gave him zero support- the Stripers ripped off a 7 minute TD drive and the Browns were down 7-0 before Manziel even touched the ball. So what does JF do? Went 3 and out. Care to comment on how horrible those two interceptions looked? Jay Cutler bad, and Cutler is getting reamed in Chicago big time. Those were 14 point swings. I can't say if Manziel was responsible for the line calls, but if he had a lick of sense he should have been able to see there was an unblocked defender that- predictably knocked him on his ass with no resistance. Three first downs? Could Connor Shaw or even Brandon Weeden have done any worse?
As far as not giving him every chance to succeed, are we supposed to wait until Alex Mack comes back next year, and the Browns draft Amari Cooper? Johnny had the same starting lineup as Hoyer- so how is that unfair? Hoyer played poorly the last couple games- and Manziel played worse. It's his first start- and as I said, he gets cut some slack for that- but OTOH, he's not above getting some severe criticism for a horrible performance.
On meditation- being an Ohio State homer, I think Brian Billick's assessment\comparison rings true. Brian compared Manziel to Troy Smith. Exact same size. Both won Heismans. Both crazy athletic, with good but not great arms. Both surrounded with exceptional talent in college.
Well Ag, if 95% of Texas fans didn't want Manziel to get drafted by Cleveland, there was a raft of Browns fans who didn't want him either. And for the record- count me in that group. We'll see how this plays out over time. Yes I get the anti-JF venom that's getting spewed currently- I hope it's proven wrong. Finally, as several others have mentioned- the more zealous Manzealots have brought this shit storm on themselves by claiming Johnny was SO much better than Hoyer- as one goober (who hasn't been seen since) stated around 5 TDs and 100 rushing yards against the Bengals. Take that as being an enormous helping of Crow served up for their unrealistic expectations.
Longtime lurker...
It seems as though posters are arguing against one of two extremes when in reality the majority of individuals are more moderate in their respective positions.
Yeah- stick around- we need more posters like yourself.
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All I'm saying is that almost all here professed to support whomever was the QB, but he comes in and has a horrible first game and a Browns lynch mob develops overnight. I said even before that first game this was an unfair situation to place him in this late in the season. And I said he would need another great performance by the D and the O line to even give him a decent chance. No one here seems to understand either of those two concepts. Yes, JF let us and himself down, but even worse this coaching staff and team let him down in not giving him every chance to succeed.
So instead of going after ALL of them, this forum has focused on one rookie that they have shown nothing but disdain for since he joined the team.
If you don't like him and you don't want him then send him some place that gives him a chance to develop. My biggest gripe is that Pettine appeared to be doing just that until last Sunday. So a 3 game trial and off he goes into the sunset, another QB DOA in Cleveland. Who would have thought that would ever happen? Certainly not the rest of the country that already thinks Cleveland is where QB's go to die.
I guarantee you that 95% of his A&M fans saw this coming before he was ever drafted. The sentiment there was "anywhere but Cleveland". That is the reputation the Browns carry, justified or not. 21 and counting should tell you something is drastically wrong and that maybe, just maybe, Bernie is 100% spot on when he says we need to quit ruining these kids.
You want me to be objective. Then it's time you look in the mirror and try exactly the same.
Ag, Browns fans have never just banged on one player- a lot of corners have trashed anyone who isn't playing well- (or coaching well) Fer instance Joe Haden was getting slammed for a poor start, and I'd say he's a mortal lock to make the Pro Bowl again this year. People have been calling Justin Gilbert a bust all year, even though he was drafted higher than Manziel. I haven't forgotten some corners wanted Pettine fired before the regular season even started. .
OK, the Bengals game the defense gave him zero support- the Stripers ripped off a 7 minute TD drive and the Browns were down 7-0 before Manziel even touched the ball. So what does JF do? Went 3 and out. Care to comment on how horrible those two interceptions looked? Jay Cutler bad, and Cutler is getting reamed in Chicago big time. Those were 14 point swings. I can't say if Manziel was responsible for the line calls, but if he had a lick of sense he should have been able to see there was an unblocked defender that- predictably knocked him on his ass with no resistance. Three first downs? Could Connor Shaw or even Brandon Weeden have done any worse?
As far as not giving him every chance to succeed, are we supposed to wait until Alex Mack comes back next year, and the Browns draft Amari Cooper? Johnny had the same starting lineup as Hoyer- so how is that unfair? Hoyer played poorly the last couple games- and Manziel played worse. It's his first start- and as I said, he gets cut some slack for that- but OTOH, he's not above getting some severe criticism for a horrible performance.
On meditation- being an Ohio State homer, I think Brian Billick's assessment\comparison rings true. Brian compared Manziel to Troy Smith. Exact same size. Both won Heismans. Both crazy athletic, with good but not great arms. Both surrounded with exceptional talent in college.
Well Ag, if 95% of Texas fans didn't want Manziel to get drafted by Cleveland, there was a raft of Browns fans who didn't want him either. And for the record- count me in that group. We'll see how this plays out over time. Yes I get the anti-JF venom that's getting spewed currently- I hope it's proven wrong. Finally, as several others have mentioned- the more zealous Manzealots have brought this shit storm on themselves by claiming Johnny was SO much better than Hoyer- as one goober (who hasn't been seen since) stated around 5 TDs and 100 rushing yards against the Bengals. Take that as being an enormous helping of Crow served up for their unrealistic expectations.
Longtime lurker...
It seems as though posters are arguing against one of two extremes when in reality the majority of individuals are more moderate in their respective positions.
Yeah- stick around- we need more posters like yourself.
On meditation- being an Ohio State homer, I think Brian Billick's assessment\comparison rings true. Brian compared Manziel to Troy Smith. Exact same size. Both won Heismans. Both crazy athletic, with good but not great arms. Both surrounded with exceptional talent in college.
Well Ag, if 95% of Texas fans didn't want Manziel to get drafted by Cleveland, there was a raft of Browns fans who didn't want him either. And for the record- count me in that group. We'll see how this plays out over time. Yes I get the anti-JF venom that's getting spewed currently- I hope it's proven wrong. Finally, as several others have mentioned- the more zealous Manzealots have brought this shit storm on themselves by claiming Johnny was SO much better than Hoyer- as one goober (who hasn't been seen since) stated around 5 TDs and 100 rushing yards against the Bengals. Take that as being an enormous helping of Crow served up for their unrealistic expectations.
Yeah- stick around- we need more posters like yourself.
This is where I will actually disagree with you. Troy checked in slightly bigger than Manziel did in height and weight. Troy was also not "crazy athletic" by any stretch. In fact Todd Boeckman ran a fast 40 time than Troy did. Smith was a passer first, mobile second. He fell in love with being in the pocket (a key ingredient which cost us against Florida) that did not have anywhere near the supporting cast Johnny was blessed with. As it stands Manziel would be working with 3 1st round picks on the Oline, a future Pro bowl receiver and possible future Pro Bowl TE on top of having Swope (whom was a monster in college) While this is no knock on Ginn, Gonzo, Robo - the only receiver to have sustained success at the NFL level was Santonio.
Both style of their games couldn't be further apart. Size is about the only thing they're comparable. And Jesus do I wish we would have drafted Troy over Quinn. (Not in the 1st though)
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All I'm saying is that almost all here professed to support whomever was the QB, but he comes in and has a horrible first game and a Browns lynch mob develops overnight. I said even before that first game this was an unfair situation to place him in this late in the season. And I said he would need another great performance by the D and the O line to even give him a decent chance. No one here seems to understand either of those two concepts. Yes, JF let us and himself down, but even worse this coaching staff and team let him down in not giving him every chance to succeed.
So instead of going after ALL of them, this forum has focused on one rookie that they have shown nothing but disdain for since he joined the team.
If you don't like him and you don't want him then send him some place that gives him a chance to develop. My biggest gripe is that Pettine appeared to be doing just that until last Sunday. So a 3 game trial and off he goes into the sunset, another QB DOA in Cleveland. Who would have thought that would ever happen? Certainly not the rest of the country that already thinks Cleveland is where QB's go to die.
I guarantee you that 95% of his A&M fans saw this coming before he was ever drafted. The sentiment there was "anywhere but Cleveland". That is the reputation the Browns carry, justified or not. 21 and counting should tell you something is drastically wrong and that maybe, just maybe, Bernie is 100% spot on when he says we need to quit ruining these kids.
You want me to be objective. Then it's time you look in the mirror and try exactly the same.
Ag, Browns fans have never just banged on one player- a lot of corners have trashed anyone who isn't playing well- (or coaching well) Fer instance Joe Haden was getting slammed for a poor start, and I'd say he's a mortal lock to make the Pro Bowl again this year. People have been calling Justin Gilbert a bust all year, even though he was drafted higher than Manziel. I haven't forgotten some corners wanted Pettine fired before the regular season even started. .
OK, the Bengals game the defense gave him zero support- the Stripers ripped off a 7 minute TD drive and the Browns were down 7-0 before Manziel even touched the ball. So what does JF do? Went 3 and out. Care to comment on how horrible those two interceptions looked? Jay Cutler bad, and Cutler is getting reamed in Chicago big time. Those were 14 point swings. I can't say if Manziel was responsible for the line calls, but if he had a lick of sense he should have been able to see there was an unblocked defender that- predictably knocked him on his ass with no resistance. Three first downs? Could Connor Shaw or even Brandon Weeden have done any worse?
As far as not giving him every chance to succeed, are we supposed to wait until Alex Mack comes back next year, and the Browns draft Amari Cooper? Johnny had the same starting lineup as Hoyer- so how is that unfair? Hoyer played poorly the last couple games- and Manziel played worse. It's his first start- and as I said, he gets cut some slack for that- but OTOH, he's not above getting some severe criticism for a horrible performance.
On meditation- being an Ohio State homer, I think Brian Billick's assessment\comparison rings true. Brian compared Manziel to Troy Smith. Exact same size. Both won Heismans. Both crazy athletic, with good but not great arms. Both surrounded with exceptional talent in college.
Well Ag, if 95% of Texas fans didn't want Manziel to get drafted by Cleveland, there was a raft of Browns fans who didn't want him either. And for the record- count me in that group. We'll see how this plays out over time. Yes I get the anti-JF venom that's getting spewed currently- I hope it's proven wrong. Finally, as several others have mentioned- the more zealous Manzealots have brought this shit storm on themselves by claiming Johnny was SO much better than Hoyer- as one goober (who hasn't been seen since) stated around 5 TDs and 100 rushing yards against the Bengals. Take that as being an enormous helping of Crow served up for their unrealistic expectations.
Longtime lurker...
It seems as though posters are arguing against one of two extremes when in reality the majority of individuals are more moderate in their respective positions.
Yeah- stick around- we need more posters like yourself.
Well Ag, if 95% of Texas fans didn't want Manziel to get drafted by Cleveland, there was a raft of Browns fans who didn't want him either. And for the record- count me(and me) in that group. We'll see how this plays out over time. Yes I get the anti-JF venom that's getting spewed currently- I hope it's proven wrong. Finally, as several others have mentioned- the more zealous Manzealots have brought this shit storm on themselves by claiming Johnny was SO much better than Hoyer- as one goober (who hasn't been seen since) stated around 5 TDs and 100 rushing yards against the Bengals. Take that as being an enormous helping of Crow served up for their unrealistic expectations.
I would agree that MANY of us didn't want him and EXPECTED this type of play from him. So the response isn't really unexpected or unreasonable for those who anticipated this.
AND...as many have already said....much of the venom is being thrown at the Manzealots and not JFF himself. They dug a very deep hole and are now trying to crawl out of it, while the JFF haters are throwing dirt in.
I know my personal angst over this whole thing is more toward those who have been here 8 months building a monument to him and tearing down Hoyer, but now are throwing anything against the wall just to avoid saying the truth. I defended Hoyer all year, but was also able to see when he took a crap. Id defend JFF just the same, if I saw something to defend.
Me?.....I just want a good professional quarterback. If he's good, then Ill cheer. If he sucks, then he's not a good professional and Ima say it
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Z-to answer your question-a 3 game stent at the height of playoff crunch IS an unfair way to judge a rookie QB who has 1 damn week working with the 1's. I would have preferred Hoyer finish out the season and let them start from day one next pre-season (whomever they thought was best).
Funny thing is most either pre-judged based on nothing or judged based on 1 start. Yeah, that's fair!
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Everybody knows I'm a Johnny fan, I thought Cleveland made a great move in drafting him. Its only been one game, so I still hold onto hope that he will improve and become the Johnny I'm used to seeing.
But holy hell, he looked terrible. Whatever the reason, he just sucked. For anyone to be making excuses or blaming coaches or other players is dumb.
I think the Browns are loaded with talent, albeit many injured, and with an above-average qb, could be contenders. I hope Johnny is that guy, but Sunday was horrible. No excuses, just play better or become another tebow.
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Z-to answer your question-a 3 game stent at the height of playoff crunch IS an unfair way to judge a rookie QB who has 1 damn week working with the 1's. I would have preferred Hoyer finish out the season and let them start from day one next pre-season (whomever they thought was best).
Funny thing is most either pre-judged based on nothing or judged based on 1 start. Yeah, that's fair!
Funny thing is most either pre-judged based on nothing or judged based on 1 start. Yeah, that's fair!
Yeah...because you're not guilty of pre-judging?
Holy feck!!!
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Z-to answer your question-a 3 game stent at the height of playoff crunch IS an unfair way to judge a rookie QB who has 1 damn week working with the 1's. I would have preferred Hoyer finish out the season and let them start from day one next pre-season (whomever they thought was best).
Funny thing is most either pre-judged based on nothing or judged based on 1 start. Yeah, that's fair!
Z-to answer your question-a 3 game stent at the height of playoff crunch IS an unfair way to judge a rookie QB who has 1 damn week working with the 1's. I would have preferred Hoyer finish out the season and let them start from day one next pre-season (whomever they thought was best).
Funny thing is most either pre-judged based on nothing or judged based on 1 start. Yeah, that's fair!
I don't get it. He's a member of the team. He was the backup and he got promoted to starter. We shouldn't have played him, because it's not fair to him?
I think what you are really saying is that nobody should judge him until he has everything lined up for him, has a full pre-season as the starter and then starts games as the starter.
That's gay. Johnny Manziel would think that's gay. Johnny Manziel thinks you're gay.
You man up and do your best, and if you get judged harshly, so be it, you get better and prove everybody wrong.
Hey, if he comes out Sunday, looking like a pro, and we win these last two games, or win one and play well in the other, everyone will be happy to see him return next year as the presumed starter and then he'll get everybody healthy, more weapons, start the season, and we can all hold hands and sing "Kumbaya" before his first start next year just so everybody feels good about everything and nobody is being judged harshly.
In the meantime we have a game to win this Sunday, so let's hope elfboy has a gameplan he can execute and goes out and does it. He's in the Big Boy league now ... You either bring it, or your clock starts ticking and the criticism only gets louder. Time for him to show us he can win football games. Let's see if he can beat a 5-8-1 team with a 7-7 team.
Zombo
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Everybody knows I'm a Johnny fan, I thought Cleveland made a great move in drafting him. Its only been one game, so I still hold onto hope that he will improve and become the Johnny I'm used to seeing.
But holy hell, he looked terrible. Whatever the reason, he just sucked. For anyone to be making excuses or blaming coaches or other players is dumb.
I think the Browns are loaded with talent, albeit many injured, and with an above-average qb, could be contenders. I hope Johnny is that guy, but Sunday was horrible. No excuses, just play better or become another tebow.
Everybody knows I'm a Johnny fan, I thought Cleveland made a great move in drafting him. Its only been one game, so I still hold onto hope that he will improve and become the Johnny I'm used to seeing.
But holy hell, he looked terrible. Whatever the reason, he just sucked. For anyone to be making excuses or blaming coaches or other players is dumb.
I think the Browns are loaded with talent, albeit many injured, and with an above-average qb, could be contenders. I hope Johnny is that guy, but Sunday was horrible. No excuses, just play better or become another tebow.
Stage 3: Acceptance?
Atta boy, he sucked. Hoping he looks better this week, albeit doubtful.
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You want me to be objective. Then it's time you look in the mirror and try exactly the same.
Damn near all of us were in agreement that it was time to see what Manziel had and for him to start. We saw enough of a spark in the Buffalo game to be excited about what he could bring to the table. We had been listening to all of these A&M honks (not necessarily you, but numerous other) telling us all season that the team would have won more games if only Johnny football was the QB.
He got his chance in the spotlight and took a giant shit in the middle of the field with the spotlight shining down on him. The problem this week has been the "fanboys" and the excuses and saying the most idiotic things like "he will get 200 starts for the Browns" and he's clearly the starter next year no matter what happens the rest of the season. It's the homos who are really only here because Manziel got drafted by the Browns that are making a lot of the people on this board hate the kid. I think all of understand that it's better for the Browns long term if Manziel is the answer at QB. Just like we hoped that Hoyer was the answer at QB. Just like we hoped that Weeden was the answer and McCoy and Delhomme and well..you get the picture.
He plays 2 more games like he did this past Sunday, he's not guaranteed shit for next season, even being in the league. There were plenty of analysts and scouts predraft saying that he didn't have what it takes in the NFL. There were plenty who also said he would be a superstar like Russell Wilson. The jury is still out but it certainly doesn't look very promising right now after the first game.
It's the homos who are really only here because Manziel got drafted by the Browns that are making a lot of the people on this board hate the kid.
Loved and could have written your post save the one sentence above.
While his fans have irritated me to no end, they have never made me hate "the kid". Not even starting from where I did, i.e., not wanting to draft him.
Funny thing is most either pre-judged based on nothing or judged based on 1 start. Yeah, that's fair!
You act as if none of us ever watched JM at A&M...
You act as if no one who ever watched him play at A&M ever came away with an opinion different from you...
Neither is true.
Everybody knows I'm a Johnny fan, I thought Cleveland made a great move in drafting him. Its only been one game, so I still hold onto hope that he will improve and become the Johnny I'm used to seeing.
But holy hell, he looked terrible. Whatever the reason, he just sucked. For anyone to be making excuses or blaming coaches or other players is dumb.
I think the Browns are loaded with talent, albeit many injured, and with an above-average qb, could be contenders. I hope Johnny is that guy, but Sunday was horrible. No excuses, just play better or become another tebow.
Turn in your fanboy-card.
Go Browns...
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Everybody knows I'm a Johnny fan, I thought Cleveland made a great move in drafting him. Its only been one game, so I still hold onto hope that he will improve and become the Johnny I'm used to seeing.
But holy hell, he looked terrible. Whatever the reason, he just sucked. For anyone to be making excuses or blaming coaches or other players is dumb.
I think the Browns are loaded with talent, albeit many injured, and with an above-average qb, could be contenders. I hope Johnny is that guy, but Sunday was horrible. No excuses, just play better or become another tebow.
Stage 3: Acceptance?
Atta boy, he sucked. Hoping he looks better this week, albeit doubtful.
Stage 3: Acceptance?
Atta boy, he sucked. Hoping he looks better this week, albeit doubtful.
Have to accept it, it happened. I won't be ashamed if I was wrong about him, but I m not giving up. He's got some time to prove he's capable.
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Have to accept it, it happened. I won't be ashamed if I was wrong about him, but I m not giving up. He's got some time to prove he's capable.
According to Pettine, he has 2 weeks to prove himself
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Hate being embarresed by those pumpkin-colored, non-original, front-running fags.
With that said, here are the facts :
1) Johnny wasnt ready. Was that his fault or the teams ? Dont care - doesnt matter...this is the NFL, excuses are for the weak.
2) Our O-line talent/depth/skill level cant support the read-option...past 3 games have exposed this group...this is a major issue.
3) Pettine and the coaching staff layed a major egg in preparing for our in-state rival...unexcusable on all fronts.
4) This past game ranks #2 behind the return game of 1999---- major losses in huge moments.
Where to go from here ? Win or lose - where in the middle of the pack in next years draft. Good news, we have 2 picks...bad news, we could be in another major "reset" with the QB position. If we are going to run Shanahans crap, we had better sign RG3 (assuming Johhny can settle down and stop soiling himself)...draft monster / athletic OL, draft or FA nasty NT, find new special teams coach, and add depth at WR.
most important... N O M O R E R E G I M E C H A N G E !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! 7 - 7 dont do it Jimmy !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
Bermeck (this x-buffalo bills staff isnt horrible, but have not impressed yet... guess papa Pettine had never seen the counter trey)
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Z-to answer your question-a 3 game stent at the height of playoff crunch IS an unfair way to judge a rookie QB who has 1 damn week working with the 1's. I would have preferred Hoyer finish out the season and let them start from day one next pre-season (whomever they thought was best).
Funny thing is most either pre-judged based on nothing or judged based on 1 start. Yeah, that's fair!
Z-to answer your question-a 3 game stent at the height of playoff crunch IS an unfair way to judge a rookie QB who has 1 damn week working with the 1's. I would have preferred Hoyer finish out the season and let them start from day one next pre-season (whomever they thought was best).
Funny thing is most either pre-judged based on nothing or judged based on 1 start. Yeah, that's fair!
The problem was- Hoyer had regressed so badly Pettine almost didn't have a choice but to switch to Manziel- if he thought there was a prayer the Browns had a shot at the playoffs this year- because we sure weren't getting there the way Brian was playing. It was certainly more fair to Johnny to put him out there week 13, after he had a chance to adjust to the pro game- than to start him week one, have him put up a performance like that, and totally deflate the season before it even had a chance to start.
BTW, None of the top quarterbacks this year pre draft were judged on nothing on this Board. They were all- Bortles, Bridgewater, Carr, Manziel, Garrapolo- extensively debated. Including plenty of film clips, game review, and input from people who had seen them play- plus input from guys blogs who actually rate college prospects for a living. So besides the off-field crap- which was a big negative in my book, I saw Manziel do plenty of stuff at A&M I was 90% certain wouldn't fly in the NFL. Don't forget more than one prognosticator had JFF rated as a third round prospect. What I don't like is those same guys screaming from the rooftops "see I was right about him" after one game. I do wish we had kept Stockton around long enough to be able to fry his ass after that debacle of a performance. You've been around long enough to realize nothing gets the Mods pissed off faster than a Grade A smart ass who belittles everyone who doesn't agree with him. And I do apologize if you think some of the guys here are singling you out with some anti-Manziel hatred. OTOH- us BROWNS fans have had to put up with the Hoyer is a bum Johnny is Da Bomb chant from some quarters- until last week. Instead of "DA BOMB" well, he just bombed. Hey Walter, what ya thinkin' now? I'm hoping Johnny plays 1,000% better this week. The last thing us oldsters want to see is yet another rinse, wash, repeat cycle at the quarterback position.
Zombo said:
I don't get it. He's a member of the team. He was the backup and he got promoted to starter. We shouldn't have played him, because it's not fair to him?
I think what you are really saying is that nobody should judge him until he has everything lined up for him, has a full pre-season as the starter and then starts games as the starter.
You man up and do your best, and if you get judged harshly, so be it, you get better and prove everybody wrong.
Hey, if he comes out Sunday, looking like a pro, and we win these last two games, or win one and play well in the other, everyone will be happy to see him return next year as the presumed starter and then he'll get everybody healthy, more weapons, start the season, and we can all hold hands and sing "Kumbaya" before his first start next year just so everybody feels good about everything and nobody is being judged harshly.
In the meantime we have a game to win this Sunday, so let's hope elfboy has a gameplan he can execute and goes out and does it. He's in the Big Boy league now ... You either bring it, or your clock starts ticking and the criticism only gets louder. Time for him to show us he can win football games. Let's see if he can beat a 5-8-1 team with a 7-7 team.
Zombo
What Z said. This is the Big Boy league, we left the College rah-rah at the door. If Hoyer had gotten hurt, would it have been any different, if Manziel had been forced to start, and played equally poorly?
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