So what does Cleveland do about Gordon?
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It mens that unfortunately he doesn't seem to respect some of the great veterans in the league. I thought that was clear.we had veterans calling out these guys in public and a lot of folks said it was wrong and they shouldn't have done it. So, lets assume that BEFORE they went public, they tried in private. It only seems reasonable. Josh was surrounded by leaders who worked hard, stayed clean, showed up and gave effort every day, which is HOW you lead.
It's insane to lump any of this on his team mates. And if "he" is, then he is the worst team player ever
Finally, whether he is "awed" by other players or not is irrelevant and a kind of stupid. What does that have to do with anything???
WSS
It mens that unfortunately he doesn't seem to respect some of the great veterans in the league. I thought that was clear.
WSS
It wasn't. But now it is.
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cbbacker said:
I don't see what value he has? You do understand he isn't just suspended, he is banished essentially. He has continually broken the rules, while it's unlikely; he could be left out longer than a year. Even if he comes back what value does he have? No team will chance anything more then a 6 or 7 at best for a guy who is 1 incident from a lifetime ban.
He could have an amazing year and he would still be worthless to most teams. He would need to have like 4 years clean, and playing at a high level before he has any real value.
I hate the idea of cutting a talented player, but some people just will not learn until they have their livelyhood taken away. You cannot continue to let him make the organization look bad. If you do, it invites not only Gordon to continue breaking the rules, but also shows his teamates that they can get away with it as well. That kind of attitude can permeate a locker room and cause some real issues. Some team mates will hate him, and others will act like him.
I just don't think it's worth it.
I agree with you except that I believe a team WILL take a chance with him & I would wish him well. For the Browns, I don't think it's worth it to keep him. Not only does he make bad decisions, he plays without PRIDE. If he played with pride, he would play hard EVERY down & he clearly does not. He put himself under the microscope & has to live with being highly scrutinized. Sorry Josh, but YOU live with the consequences of your actions. Playing in the NFL is a privilege to be earned, not a right based on talent alone. Cutting him makes a strong & positive statement to those Browns' players who have worked their butts off to earn the privilege to be here, especially a few who have overcome previous off field issues. If he had HALF their pride & work ethic, he wouldn't be where he is now. Let another team babysit him. The Browns have supported him long enough. Also keep in mind that we won FOUR games in his ONE productive season & were more successful with him OFF the field than ON it in 2014. Could he come back to hurt us?..Possibly, but we don't know that. What we DO know is that he has & is hurting the Browns now as they are working to reverse a negative culture. Josh Gordon lacks the pride real winners have. Real winners don't blame their past for their shortcomings, they forge ahead to positive growth.
The Browns & their Fans deserve better.
Mike
I agree with you except that I believe a team WILL take a chance with him & I would wish him well. For the Browns, I don't think it's worth it to keep him. Not only does he make bad decisions, he plays without PRIDE. If he played with pride, he would play hard EVERY down & he clearly does not. He put himself under the microscope & has to live with being highly scrutinized. Sorry Josh, but YOU live with the consequences of your actions. Playing in the NFL is a privilege to be earned, not a right based on talent alone. Cutting him makes a strong & positive statement to those Browns' players who have worked their butts off to earn the privilege to be here, especially a few who have overcome previous off field issues. If he had HALF their pride & work ethic, he wouldn't be where he is now. Let another team babysit him. The Browns have supported him long enough. Also keep in mind that we won FOUR games in his ONE productive season & were more successful with him OFF the field than ON it in 2014. Could he come back to hurt us?..Possibly, but we don't know that. What we DO know is that he has & is hurting the Browns now as they are working to reverse a negative culture. Josh Gordon lacks the pride real winners have. Real winners don't blame their past for their shortcomings, they forge ahead to positive growth.
The Browns & their Fans deserve better.
Mike
You are 100% right. A team WILL sign him. That sadly is unfortunate for the Browns. Teams will always try and find a steal when they can. The Patriots have been doing it for years. The problem is, usually it takes that life hit of hitting bottom, and having your dream taken away before they realize they truly have something to lose. Until then, the Browns are nothing more then an organization of excuses when it comes to Gordon.
I don't want to lose a dynamic playmaker such as Gordon either, but he is a bad influence on this team whether he means to be or not. I wish him the best, but how can you expect anything other then the worst? He hasn't proven he can make good decisions. Even in his letter he makes excuses of not knowing, or he was just around weed, but didn't smoke. etc. This kid is damaged, and even with his future in doubt, still believes he didn't do anything wrong. That isn't the sign of a mature kid who understands his place in this world, and on this team. If he isn't mature enough to stay away from his so called friends who do this garbage, then he doesn't deserve anymore chances. He has had plenty of them. I wonder how many on this board, would continually fail like he has making bad decision after decision since high school? I bet 95% would have shaped up by now.
At some point you just have to cut the cord and let them fall on their face.
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I feel like a lot of the people of this board don't know what it is like to grow up without a father. I personally don't know what it's like, but I imagine that you lack the discipline you would otherwise have if you did have a father. Personally, I know that I was always frightened by disappointing my father. Your mother is always there to coddle you, but your father is there to turn you into a man that will force you to own up to your own personal responsibilities. Not really defending Josh (he's a dumbass from my perspective), but you gotta walk a mile in his shoes before you scream "CUT HIM".
I feel like a lot of the people of this board don't know what it is like to grow up without a father. I personally don't know what it's like, but I imagine that you lack the discipline you would otherwise have if you did have a father. Personally, I know that I was always frightened by disappointing my father. Your mother is always there to coddle you, but your father is there to turn you into a man that will force you to own up to your own personal responsibilities. Not really defending Josh (he's a dumbass from my perspective), but you gotta walk a mile in his shoes before you scream "CUT HIM".
I am sorry but this has nothing to do with Josh Gordon. Can only a father teach a son right from wrong? Can only a mother teach a daughter right from wrong? Can only a married couple only teach kids there are consequences to your decisions? A missing father might have had some impact on him, but to say that is the reason he is who he is; is just crazy. There are untold amounts of people who had no father, and grew up and became at least upstanding citizens, if not successful citizens DESPITE not having a father. This is one of the all time biggest copouts to the upbringing of our children.
I am sure his mother taught him right from wrong, I am sure he learned and experienced what happens when you break the rules ( like getting kicked out of Baylor). This is his fault alone, and no other outside forces caused this. I personally cannot stand copouts, Life is simple, make good choices, and life will be better.
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I feel like a lot of the people of this board don't know what it is like to grow up without a father. I personally don't know what it's like, but I imagine that you lack the discipline you would otherwise have if you did have a father. Personally, I know that I was always frightened by disappointing my father. Your mother is always there to coddle you, but your father is there to turn you into a man that will force you to own up to your own personal responsibilities. Not really defending Josh (he's a dumbass from my perspective), but you gotta walk a mile in his shoes before you scream "CUT HIM".
I am sorry but this has nothing to do with Josh Gordon. Can only a father teach a son right from wrong? Can only a mother teach a daughter right from wrong? Can only a married couple only teach kids there are consequences to your decisions? A missing father might have had some impact on him, but to say that is the reason he is who he is; is just crazy. There are untold amounts of people who had no father, and grew up and became at least upstanding citizens, if not successful citizens DESPITE not having a father. This is one of the all time biggest copouts to the upbringing of our children.
I am sure his mother taught him right from wrong, I am sure he learned and experienced what happens when you break the rules ( like getting kicked out of Baylor). This is his fault alone, and no other outside forces caused this. I personally cannot stand copouts, Life is simple, make good choices, and life will be better.
cbbacker said:
Life is simple, make good choices, and life will be better.
and try and be the best person you can be along the way, especially to those who have gone out of their way to help you.
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I put it like this...
If I own a business, and hired somebody who showed in one year that he COULD be great I'd be excited about what he COULD do in the future. BUT if he couldn't stay at work b/c he kept getting suspended (especially for a WHOLE YEAR), I'm pretty sure it'd be time to cut bait and move forward...
It's not impossible to find another good WR.
Also, it's not guaranteed that Gordon will ever be as great again as we saw in a small, 14-game sample size... Some players are one-and-done (Peyton Hillis anybody)...
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Let's not make a story bigger. How do we know if nothing was said to Josh about Drinking?? Not Team Babysitter's, Josh states he blew it and thought drinking suspension ended to league at end of season, (Yes Dumb) but if was asked by teammate's I would think that was his answer. Josh adult and responsible for his own suspension violations, I am sure he signed his restrictions and sounds like a agent should have told him soon as he heard the word Las Vegas..
Let's not make a story bigger. How do we know if nothing was said to Josh about Drinking?? Not Team Babysitter's, Josh states he blew it and thought drinking suspension ended to league at end of season, (Yes Dumb) but if was asked by teammate's I would think that was his answer. Josh adult and responsible for his own suspension violations, I am sure he signed his restrictions and sounds like a agent should have told him soon as he heard the word Las Vegas..
You're kidding me Josh- when they suspended you I'm 99.9% certain they spelled out exactly what you could and couldn't do- and when. Too thick to listen?
it's not a warning from the Browns is a warning from the league. How much worse off is he if we cut him? None. Where is the punishment? There isn't any.
And the benefit for the Browns? None.
WSS
Ask anyone who's been fired from a high paying job if they were better off? Cutting Gordon says- there are limits as to how much we're going to tolerate around here- regardless of how talented you are.
It's a tough call Steve- and the fans aren't the ones who will make it. It would be a nightmare if the Browns do cut Gordon and he straightens out his act and has a great career with another team. How many chances does the guy deserve? He's had plenty of them.
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I would get rid of any car that is unreliable and is hardly ever in running condition.
So are you spoiled, stupid or just merely allow your emotions to govern how you act, or more aptly, react?
I don't give shit away for free. No person who understands the concept of value does. It's called capitalism and it's kind of a big deal around these parts.
So are you spoiled, stupid or just merely allow your emotions to govern how you act, or more aptly, react?
I don't give shit away for free. No person who understands the concept of value does. It's called capitalism and it's kind of a big deal around these parts.
Insults aside, I'd say it's ignorant to expect a car with a blown engine to miraculously start running like a top the next day. Also, smart capitalism also involves cutting your losses instead of wasting resources on a failed endeavor. It's called opportunity cost. Even without counting towards the cap and not taking a roster spot, the opportunity cost of keeping Gordon is too high. It's time to move on and invest in a player who might someday contribute to the Cleveland Browns. Ya dicknuts.
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I think you can make a good argument for or against keeping Gordon. I don't see anything telling me he is ever going to learn but on the other hand I hate not getting any value for him in return.
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So are you spoiled, stupid or just merely allow your emotions to govern how you act, or more aptly, react?
I don't give shit away for free. No person who understands the concept of value does. It's called capitalism and it's kind of a big deal around these parts.
Insults aside, I'd say it's ignorant to expect a car with a blown engine to miraculously start running like a top the next day. Also, smart capitalism also involves cutting your losses instead of wasting resources on a failed endeavor. It's called opportunity cost. Even without counting towards the cap and not taking a roster spot, the opportunity cost of keeping Gordon is too high. It's time to move on and invest in a player who might someday contribute to the Cleveland Browns. Ya dicknuts.
Insults aside, I'd say it's ignorant to expect a car with a blown engine to miraculously start running like a top the next day. Also, smart capitalism also involves cutting your losses instead of wasting resources on a failed endeavor. It's called opportunity cost. Even without counting towards the cap and not taking a roster spot, the opportunity cost of keeping Gordon is too high. It's time to move on and invest in a player who might someday contribute to the Cleveland Browns. Ya dicknuts.
I apologize for the insults, they were unwarranted, I'll admit.
We disagree on the opportunity cost. If he does come back, awesome. If he doesn't, well he can't play anywhere else. I see no downside and a lot of risk by letting him go. It might be a tad vindictive but then again I am a dicknuts so it makes sense.
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Cut him/keep him it doesn't matter. The roster for this year will look the same either way, the payroll for this year will look the same either way.
Let's revisit this once it actually means something to an upcoming Browns season...
Who are you guys voting for in 2020?
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Cut him/keep him it doesn't matter. The roster for this year will look the same either way, the payroll for this year will look the same either way.
Let's revisit this once it actually means something to an upcoming Browns season...
Who are you guys voting for in 2020?
Who are you guys voting for in 2020?
I usually just write myself in on the ballot.
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No... you send a message to the rest of the locker room.
"we want you for your athletic talent, and you can screw up
3 times, 4 times, and we still won't have the nads to dump
you off this team."
I'm all for second chances, but this ignorant, entitled, enabled guy
needs to go.
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Some of us are talking like Josh just "made a mistake" and everyone deserves a second chance.
Hey, I believe in second chances--I wouldn't be where I am in life without a couple of second chances
over the years.
Here's the problem: this shit has been going on since October 2010 when he fell asleep in the
drive-thru of a Taco Bell and police found weed in his car. I've read the accounts of his fuck-ups
and in every single one he says he has learned his lesson and is going to apply himself and how
tough it is to watch his teammates on the field blah, blah, blah. His recent heart-warming letter is
just more of the same---"I've made bad choices, I need to grow up, I won't let you down, etc., etc.
The ONLY reason to keep him around is that he won't cost us anything, but how much time do we spend
spinning our wheels, running in place with this guy? Does anyone, based on his past conduct, honestly
expect him to suddenly change? I'm sorry, I just see more and more and more of the same in the
future for Josh Gordon.
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Douche,
About the only place I disagree with your last 3 posts is that I am NOT yet ready to throw the towel in on Johnny. We'll see what happens there.
As far as Josh goes, in a nutshell, your statement "Getting rid of him is addition by subtraction" is exactly what I feel. People are thinking that not cutting him costs us nothing. BULLCRAP! Keeping him costs us FAR MORE than "immediate" money.Keeping him perpetuates the widespread negative perception of the Browns that still exists. Let's get rid of the negative & go forward
As Farmer indicated about Johnny, "talk's cheap". Haven't we heard Gordon's talk long enough?
I'm for sending a strong message that athleticism is only PART of what is needed for success. Maybe Johnny will get it, but it's too late for Gordon. Cutting Gordon also may send a message to Johnny that talent isn't enough.
CUT Josh Gordon now, please.
Mike
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I just want to see what happens with Johnny, but on a very short leash. While he must be responsible for his actions, our new offensive coaches CANNOT allow an entire season go by without holding him accountable. Apparently, his week to week progress (lack of) was NOT monitored. This TC, it's "put up or shut up" time for Johnny.
The cutting of Gordon will, at least IMO), send the message.
We'll see, but I think we basically agree...You can't be healthy as a Family without taking the trash out as needed.
Mike
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I hope everyone takes a long look at the WR makeup of the Pats and the Seahawks.
Seahawks: 100% undrafted free agents.
Patriots:
Amendola - undrafted
Edelman - 7th round
LaFell - 3rd round
Brian Tyms - undrafted. Who?
Josh Boyce - 4th round. Who?
EARLY DRAFTING OF WR DOES NOT SOLVE ANYTHING. Let Gordon sit - it's a business decision for Farmer.
2015 draft:
First round - OT, DT. Second round - DE.
The more labels you have for yourself, the dumber they make you. "When you win, say nothing. When you lose, say less." Paul Brown -
I hope everyone takes a long look at the WR makeup of the Pats and the Seahawks.
Seahawks: 100% undrafted free agents.
Patriots:
Amendola - undrafted
Edelman - 7th round
LaFell - 3rd round
Brian Tyms - undrafted. Who?
Josh Boyce - 4th round. Who?
EARLY DRAFTING OF WR DOES NOT SOLVE ANYTHING. Let Gordon sit - it's a business decision for Farmer.
2015 draft:
First round - OT, DT. Second round - DE.
I hope everyone takes a long look at the WR makeup of the Pats and the Seahawks.
Seahawks: 100% undrafted free agents.
Patriots:
Amendola - undrafted
Edelman - 7th round
LaFell - 3rd round
Brian Tyms - undrafted. Who?
Josh Boyce - 4th round. Who?
EARLY DRAFTING OF WR DOES NOT SOLVE ANYTHING. Let Gordon sit - it's a business decision for Farmer.
2015 draft:
First round - OT, DT. Second round - DE.
this was from the draft simulator thread. even though i have a wr in the first it still meets all the criteria of filling the essential holes and depth.
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This is a no brainer, you keep him. His value might be greatly diminished but he still has value.
Best case: he gets his shit straight, comes back and produces, creates more value or both. The players see that the FO actually cares about them and are willing to work with them. Win-win.
Worst case: he keeps fucking up and can only play for us. If he wants redemption, it has to be for us. The players see that the FO isn't going to fuck around and they need to keep their noses clean. We lose out on the talent but send a strong message to the players that the FO will ruin your career if you fuck with them.
The only message you send by cutting him is that the FO has no spine and will grant you the opportunity to continue your career elsewhere if you cause enough trouble.
Would you give away a 1964 1/2 Mustang because it had a couple dents in it?
This is a no brainer, you keep him. His value might be greatly diminished but he still has value.
Best case: he gets his shit straight, comes back and produces, creates more value or both. The players see that the FO actually cares about them and are willing to work with them. Win-win.
Worst case: he keeps fucking up and can only play for us. If he wants redemption, it has to be for us. The players see that the FO isn't going to fuck around and they need to keep their noses clean. We lose out on the talent but send a strong message to the players that the FO will ruin your career if you fuck with them.
The only message you send by cutting him is that the FO has no spine and will grant you the opportunity to continue your career elsewhere if you cause enough trouble.
Would you give away a 1964 1/2 Mustang because it had a couple dents in it?
If the 1964 1/2 Mustang costs you $1.6 million dollars in 2015 and won't be running...yeah, probably.
I think your definition of "a couple dents" differs from everyone else. Do "a couple dents" keep the Mustang parked for 1/3 of it's life?
So are you spoiled, stupid or just merely allow your emotions to govern how you act, or more aptly, react?
I don't give shit away for free. No person who understands the concept of value does. It's called capitalism and it's kind of a big deal around these parts.
No person who understands NFL contracts deeper than "don't give away good players" sits on a WR who's failed multiple drug tests and can't stay on the field.
If they can use the multiple suspensions to re-sign him to a bargain basement contract, then it would be stupid to release him. However, if he even asks for Top 25 - money, it's not worth it.
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I hope everyone takes a long look at the WR makeup of the Pats and the Seahawks.
Seahawks: 100% undrafted free agents.
Patriots:
Amendola - undrafted
Edelman - 7th round
LaFell - 3rd round
Brian Tyms - undrafted. Who?
Josh Boyce - 4th round. Who?
EARLY DRAFTING OF WR DOES NOT SOLVE ANYTHING. Let Gordon sit - it's a business decision for Farmer.
2015 draft:
First round - OT, DT. Second round - DE.
I hope everyone takes a long look at the WR makeup of the Pats and the Seahawks.
Seahawks: 100% undrafted free agents.
Patriots:
Amendola - undrafted
Edelman - 7th round
LaFell - 3rd round
Brian Tyms - undrafted. Who?
Josh Boyce - 4th round. Who?
EARLY DRAFTING OF WR DOES NOT SOLVE ANYTHING. Let Gordon sit - it's a business decision for Farmer.
2015 draft:
First round - OT, DT. Second round - DE.
The key difference between us and them is that they have a QB who is more than capable of turning those WR's into stars.
We do not.
Someone has to bail someone out on one side. Either a top WR target to bail out a less than average QB or a talented QB to bail out his less than average WR's.
(I'd also like to note that the play style of Wilson allows for Seattle to have less talented WR's, since it's nearly impossible for a corner to cover a WR for more than 5-6 seconds. If Johnny could replicate that, I would be all for us following Seattle's model.)
Gordon is going to have to be resigned before he plays another down. I don't think the argument is cutting him today, it's more do we trade him or sign him to a new contract even though he will play as many downs next season as Franklin D. Roosevelt.
I'm awesome, and I fuck dolphins. Ghoolie 12/2/2012: I have absolutely no skills, training or pride -
@douche-nozzle said:
The reason to cut him yesterday is simple. The Browns have been a dysfunctional organization for a long time and the only way they will shed that image is to get rid of the junk (including little Johnny) and build a real team. Keeping him on the off chance, against all odds, that he will get his shit together is like keeping junk cars in your yard in case they become worth something and then wondering why your neighbors think you are a loser.
Keeping him is a bright shining example that the Cleveland Browns simply don't know what they are doing.
Clinches it... I am now positive we must keep Josh.
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