Browns vs. Steeler LB corps
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I agree...but the Vag doesn't seem to see it that way.
But that is contradictory to what you sometimes hear...that Ben is overrated... he achieved success by riding on the back the Steelers team, not the other way around.
I guess it depends on the argument of the day on which waffling perspective you take.
Stuart said:
But that is contradictory to what you sometimes hear...that Ben is overrated... he achieved success by riding on the back the Steelers team, not the other way around.
I guess it depends on the argument of the day on which waffling perspective you take.
I am not one that says that. I think it is the other way around....or has been for many years now.
With one caveat.....I think that those first couple of years....when he was a rookie and they won 15 games....and his second season when the won that first SB....that perhaps is true.
That 2004-2005 era Steeler defense was one of the best in history.....rivalling the likes of the 1985 Bears/2000 Ravens/2002 Bucs. And BR was young....and it may be fair to say the Steelers won that SB in spite of him (as he really didn't play that well. Statistically it is still the worst game ever by a winning SB QB)
But there was a sea change after that. The 2008 SB was all BR essentially (plus one lucky play/inept play by the Cards). And he has been carrying that team ever since.
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Long story short, swap steeler/browns QB corps and the steelers drop to the cellar and browns win the division. Similar talent levels all around, but means nothing without good QB play.
Long story short, swap steeler/browns QB corps and the steelers drop to the cellar and browns win the division. Similar talent levels all around, but means nothing without good QB play.
How many teams in the NFL would win without their franchise qb? Teams are capable of going stretches but for the most part a winning season is pretty unlikely. The last team I remember personally was the patriots and cassell(sp) went on to start somewhere else. Yes if Ben were a brown the team would win more games but the steelers have a superior running back and receiving core and now with Cameron gone a superior tight end. Offensively the teams arent close, at least not from a ceiling/sky is the limit stand point. The steelers with mccown would score more points than the browns with mccown for example or the Browns with Ben would score less points than the Steelers with Ben.
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Stuart said:
But that is contradictory to what you sometimes hear...that Ben is overrated... he achieved success by riding on the back the Steelers team, not the other way around.
I guess it depends on the argument of the day on which waffling perspective you take.
I am not one that says that. I think it is the other way around....or has been for many years now.
With one caveat.....I think that those first couple of years....when he was a rookie and they won 15 games....and his second season when the won that first SB....that perhaps is true.
That 2004-2005 era Steeler defense was one of the best in history.....rivalling the likes of the 1985 Bears/2000 Ravens/2002 Bucs. And BR was young....and it may be fair to say the Steelers won that SB in spite of him (as he really didn't play that well. Statistically it is still the worst game ever by a winning SB QB)
But there was a sea change after that. The 2008 SB was all BR essentially (plus one lucky play/inept play by the Cards). And he has been carrying that team ever since.
I am not one that says that. I think it is the other way around....or has been for many years now.
With one caveat.....I think that those first couple of years....when he was a rookie and they won 15 games....and his second season when the won that first SB....that perhaps is true.
That 2004-2005 era Steeler defense was one of the best in history.....rivalling the likes of the 1985 Bears/2000 Ravens/2002 Bucs. And BR was young....and it may be fair to say the Steelers won that SB in spite of him (as he really didn't play that well. Statistically it is still the worst game ever by a winning SB QB)
But there was a sea change after that. The 2008 SB was all BR essentially (plus one lucky play/inept play by the Cards). And he has been carrying that team ever since.
Gipper I agree that Ben isn't overrated but the 2008 defense was one of the best ever.
AKA SNATCH98 or Rorbotron. The boards glorious admins decided to get cute and change my name to "homotron" Classy group of people. (Lost a bet with Columbus king and got banned for a month) -
Stuart said:
But that is contradictory to what you sometimes hear...that Ben is overrated... he achieved success by riding on the back the Steelers team, not the other way around.
I guess it depends on the argument of the day on which waffling perspective you take.
I am not one that says that. I think it is the other way around....or has been for many years now.
With one caveat.....I think that those first couple of years....when he was a rookie and they won 15 games....and his second season when the won that first SB....that perhaps is true.
That 2004-2005 era Steeler defense was one of the best in history.....rivalling the likes of the 1985 Bears/2000 Ravens/2002 Bucs. And BR was young....and it may be fair to say the Steelers won that SB in spite of him (as he really didn't play that well. Statistically it is still the worst game ever by a winning SB QB)
But there was a sea change after that. The 2008 SB was all BR essentially (plus one lucky play/inept play by the Cards). And he has been carrying that team ever since.
I am not one that says that. I think it is the other way around....or has been for many years now.
With one caveat.....I think that those first couple of years....when he was a rookie and they won 15 games....and his second season when the won that first SB....that perhaps is true.
That 2004-2005 era Steeler defense was one of the best in history.....rivalling the likes of the 1985 Bears/2000 Ravens/2002 Bucs. And BR was young....and it may be fair to say the Steelers won that SB in spite of him (as he really didn't play that well. Statistically it is still the worst game ever by a winning SB QB)
But there was a sea change after that. The 2008 SB was all BR essentially (plus one lucky play/inept play by the Cards). And he has been carrying that team ever since.
I can't be positive anyone on this board says that, but it's something I've heard many times....really good points btw.
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Stuart said:
What he meant was if the GAME was played later in the season. I'm surprised you couldn't figure that one out.
If my mother had wings she might fly like a bat and shit guano. (I just made that up....I kinda like it
)WTF The game was played when it was played. Do you want to revise history?
If Alex Mack hadn't gotten hurt, Brian Hoyer may not have lost his confidence and not gone into a brain dead hole and played better the rest of the year.
If my mother had wings she might fly like a bat and shit guano. (I just made that up....I kinda like it
)WTF The game was played when it was played. Do you want to revise history?
If Alex Mack hadn't gotten hurt, Brian Hoyer may not have lost his confidence and not gone into a brain dead hole and played better the rest of the year.
Lol, no. I'm not agreeing with Vagitron nor disagreeing....I am just clarifying what he meant to help out ColumbusQueen with those silly questions.
Besides, it's not about wanting to "revise history"...it's about coulda, woulda, an shoulda, which is what much of sports talk is about.
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If my mother had wings she might fly like a bat and shit guano. (I just made that up....I kinda like it
)WTF The game was played when it was played. Do you want to revise history?
If Alex Mack hadn't gotten hurt, Brian Hoyer may not have lost his confidence and not gone into a brain dead hole and played better the rest of the year.
Lol, no. I'm not agreeing with Vagitron nor disagreeing....I am just clarifying what he meant to help out ColumbusQueen with those silly questions.
Besides, it's not about wanting to "revise history"...it's about coulda, woulda, an shoulda, which is what much of sports talk is about.
Stuart said:
Lol, no. I'm not agreeing with Vagitron nor disagreeing....I am just clarifying what he meant to help out ColumbusQueen with those silly questions.Besides, it's not about wanting to "revise history"...it's about coulda, woulda, an shoulda, which is what much of sports talk is about.
I think he was hung up on me saying "move the win" when I really should have said move the game. He was being "cute". Either way your interpretation is what I meant and I completely agree...woulda, coulda, shoulda.
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I am not one that says that. I think it is the other way around....or has been for many years now.
With one caveat.....I think that those first couple of years....when he was a rookie and they won 15 games....and his second season when the won that first SB....that perhaps is true.
That 2004-2005 era Steeler defense was one of the best in history.....rivalling the likes of the 1985 Bears/2000 Ravens/2002 Bucs. And BR was young....and it may be fair to say the Steelers won that SB in spite of him (as he really didn't play that well. Statistically it is still the worst game ever by a winning SB QB)
But there was a sea change after that. The 2008 SB was all BR essentially (plus one lucky play/inept play by the Cards). And he has been carrying that team ever since.
Gipper I agree that Ben isn't overrated but the 2008 defense was one of the best ever.
Gipper I agree that Ben isn't overrated but the 2008 defense was one of the best ever.
My recollection was that 2005 was better.....but apparently I was wrong.
I see that the Steelers in 2005 were fourth overall in both yards and points allowed, where the 2008 team was first in both fewest yds. and points.
On offense, in 2005 the Steelers were 15th in yards, 9th in scoring. But in 2008 they were 22d in yards and 20th in scoring.
So....apparently the Steeler offense and defense was better in 2005 than in 2008. I guess the perception ...at least to me....is that the Steelers Offense was better in 08 because BR was the much better QB in 08 than he was in 05.
Here is the breakdown of the offense:
2005: 5th in the league in rushing, 24th passing
2008: 23rd in rushing, 17th in passing.
They were a better rushing team in 05, a better passing team in 08.
Maybe because they were such a more dominant running team in 2005.....and their defense was no slouch....4th in both categories, that is seemed a more defensive/run oriented team in 2005....which I think it was. Its just that in 2008 BR carried a lot more of the offensive burden....which he did, that it seemed a more offensive oriented team.
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Here's Yahoo's ranking of the Steelers GM that casts an interesting light on the situation of the franchise as a whole:
19. Kevin Colbert, Steelers
Last Years Ranking: 23
Kevin Colbert is unreasonably good at drafting receivers. The rest? Lets just say hes lucky to have Ben Roethlisberger. Colbert has let the Steelers typically elite defense slip into mediocrity, while finding offensive linemen capable of keeping Roethlisberger upright has proven a daunting challenge for the Steelers personnel man. Colberts line was improved in 2014, but his collection of 53 players still failed to win a playoff game for the fourth time in as many years. With Dick LeBeau and Troy Polamalu both gone, Colbert is running out of connections to the Steelers 2000s golden age, which will only shine a brighter light on his roster failures. Colbert has been around for some boom times, but the further the Steelers get from the Bill Cowher era, the less clear it gets just how much of an asset Colbert really is.
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Here's Yahoo's ranking of the Steelers GM that casts an interesting light on the situation of the franchise as a whole:
19. Kevin Colbert, Steelers
Last Years Ranking: 23
Kevin Colbert is unreasonably good at drafting receivers. The rest? Lets just say hes lucky to have Ben Roethlisberger. Colbert has let the Steelers typically elite defense slip into mediocrity, while finding offensive linemen capable of keeping Roethlisberger upright has proven a daunting challenge for the Steelers personnel man. Colberts line was improved in 2014, but his collection of 53 players still failed to win a playoff game for the fourth time in as many years. With Dick LeBeau and Troy Polamalu both gone, Colbert is running out of connections to the Steelers 2000s golden age, which will only shine a brighter light on his roster failures. Colbert has been around for some boom times, but the further the Steelers get from the Bill Cowher era, the less clear it gets just how much of an asset Colbert really is.
The steelers have been a team in transition the last few seasons. The article like a majority of the articles written right now is a fluff piece. Colbert hasn't had terrific success outside of the first round for players on defense but he's hit enough and the players on defense that will begin making their mark are part of the transition. Jones, Shazier, Thomas, Tuitt, Heyward, Vince Williams, Sean Spence, McCullers. Our team with Troy and Ike now gone is very young.Here's Yahoo's ranking of the Steelers GM that casts an interesting light on the situation of the franchise as a whole:
19. Kevin Colbert, Steelers
Last Years Ranking: 23
Kevin Colbert is unreasonably good at drafting receivers. The rest? Lets just say hes lucky to have Ben Roethlisberger. Colbert has let the Steelers typically elite defense slip into mediocrity, while finding offensive linemen capable of keeping Roethlisberger upright has proven a daunting challenge for the Steelers personnel man. Colberts line was improved in 2014, but his collection of 53 players still failed to win a playoff game for the fourth time in as many years. With Dick LeBeau and Troy Polamalu both gone, Colbert is running out of connections to the Steelers 2000s golden age, which will only shine a brighter light on his roster failures. Colbert has been around for some boom times, but the further the Steelers get from the Bill Cowher era, the less clear it gets just how much of an asset Colbert really is.
Edit: Tomlin will also have more control now with lebeau gone and the last couple seasons Tomlin has also had a heavier hand in the draft process.
Edit: and the offensive line was pretty damn good last season.
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I know nothing about football since Mingo has seemed subpar to me.
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Seriously? Receiver, tight end certainly with Cameron gone. Running back and other areas being close.
I'd argue that Ben makes Brown... I've never seen him do too much special. He is mostly just sure-handed, which is nice, but it makes you look even better when the QB puts it right where it needs to be, and also when you're the only legitimate threat as a receiver. I've seen Hawkins do more with the football once it's in his hands... our QBs just have a problem getting it there...
Bell is good, but he'll be gone 3 games PLUS I like our 2 young runners just as much... they were a little inconsistent but I think they'll both be pretty impressive in year 2... Either way, O-line makes or breaks a RB... unless you're Barry Sanders
TE... who exactly do you guys have? Miller... he's how old. I'd say him and Dray as about a wash...
BUT, I do give a ridiculous edge to Roethlisberger over whoever we decide to put under center... He's the difference between 7 wins and 11 wins for you guys...
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Seriously? Receiver, tight end certainly with Cameron gone. Running back and other areas being close.
I'd argue that Ben makes Brown... I've never seen him do too much special. He is mostly just sure-handed, which is nice, but it makes you look even better when the QB puts it right where it needs to be, and also when you're the only legitimate threat as a receiver. I've seen Hawkins do more with the football once it's in his hands... our QBs just have a problem getting it there...
Bell is good, but he'll be gone 3 games PLUS I like our 2 young runners just as much... they were a little inconsistent but I think they'll both be pretty impressive in year 2... Either way, O-line makes or breaks a RB... unless you're Barry Sanders
TE... who exactly do you guys have? Miller... he's how old. I'd say him and Dray as about a wash...
BUT, I do give a ridiculous edge to Roethlisberger over whoever we decide to put under center... He's the difference between 7 wins and 11 wins for you guys...
Seriously? Ben makes Brown and you like your two tail backs just as much? I'm a homer but good god that's one of the most homer things I've ever read. Brown and Bell are easily top 5 for their position and Bell may be the best in the NFL. You really don't pay close attention to your division rivals if you don't believe Brown doesn't do anything special. Bell also has vision like Sanders. He could run with success behind a bad offensive line and I agree heath is getting long in the tooth but he's still the most complete tight end in the league and comparing him to fucking dray is an insult.I'd argue that Ben makes Brown... I've never seen him do too much special. He is mostly just sure-handed, which is nice, but it makes you look even better when the QB puts it right where it needs to be, and also when you're the only legitimate threat as a receiver. I've seen Hawkins do more with the football once it's in his hands... our QBs just have a problem getting it there...
Bell is good, but he'll be gone 3 games PLUS I like our 2 young runners just as much... they were a little inconsistent but I think they'll both be pretty impressive in year 2... Either way, O-line makes or breaks a RB... unless you're Barry Sanders
TE... who exactly do you guys have? Miller... he's how old. I'd say him and Dray as about a wash...
BUT, I do give a ridiculous edge to Roethlisberger over whoever we decide to put under center... He's the difference between 7 wins and 11 wins for you guys...
AKA SNATCH98 or Rorbotron. The boards glorious admins decided to get cute and change my name to "homotron" Classy group of people. (Lost a bet with Columbus king and got banned for a month) -
Yeah Antonio is nasty. He's an incredible route runner.
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Seriously? Ben makes Brown and you like your two tail backs just as much? I'm a homer but good god that's one of the most homer things I've ever read. Brown and Bell are easily top 5 for their position and Bell may be the best in the NFL. You really don't pay close attention to your division rivals if you don't believe Brown doesn't do anything special. Bell also has vision like Sanders. He could run with success behind a bad offensive line and I agree heath is getting long in the tooth but he's still the most complete tight end in the league and comparing him to fucking dray is an insult.I'd argue that Ben makes Brown... I've never seen him do too much special. He is mostly just sure-handed, which is nice, but it makes you look even better when the QB puts it right where it needs to be, and also when you're the only legitimate threat as a receiver. I've seen Hawkins do more with the football once it's in his hands... our QBs just have a problem getting it there...
Bell is good, but he'll be gone 3 games PLUS I like our 2 young runners just as much... they were a little inconsistent but I think they'll both be pretty impressive in year 2... Either way, O-line makes or breaks a RB... unless you're Barry Sanders
TE... who exactly do you guys have? Miller... he's how old. I'd say him and Dray as about a wash...
BUT, I do give a ridiculous edge to Roethlisberger over whoever we decide to put under center... He's the difference between 7 wins and 11 wins for you guys...
Bell may be the best in the NFL.
Bell isn't the best in the NFL, thought I would clear that up for you.
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Bell isn't the best in the NFL, thought I would clear that up for you.
Who is better? One of the best to play the game agrees with me. (Ladanian Tomlinson). Thanks for clearing that up though, its the job of the squire to keep the king abreast of important issues. Job well done. I will give you extra time outside tomorrow. You've earned it.
AKA SNATCH98 or Rorbotron. The boards glorious admins decided to get cute and change my name to "homotron" Classy group of people. (Lost a bet with Columbus king and got banned for a month) -
I love Bell but I'll bite. As of now: Lynch, Peterson, Foster, Charles, Forte. Bell may pass up a few of those guys this year and most of them have injury issues but for now they're better.
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Seriously? Ben makes Brown and you like your two tail backs just as much? I'm a homer but good god that's one of the most homer things I've ever read. Brown and Bell are easily top 5 for their position and Bell may be the best in the NFL. You really don't pay close attention to your division rivals if you don't believe Brown doesn't do anything special. Bell also has vision like Sanders. He could run with success behind a bad offensive line and I agree heath is getting long in the tooth but he's still the most complete tight end in the league and comparing him to fucking dray is an insult.I'd argue that Ben makes Brown... I've never seen him do too much special. He is mostly just sure-handed, which is nice, but it makes you look even better when the QB puts it right where it needs to be, and also when you're the only legitimate threat as a receiver. I've seen Hawkins do more with the football once it's in his hands... our QBs just have a problem getting it there...
Bell is good, but he'll be gone 3 games PLUS I like our 2 young runners just as much... they were a little inconsistent but I think they'll both be pretty impressive in year 2... Either way, O-line makes or breaks a RB... unless you're Barry Sanders
TE... who exactly do you guys have? Miller... he's how old. I'd say him and Dray as about a wash...
BUT, I do give a ridiculous edge to Roethlisberger over whoever we decide to put under center... He's the difference between 7 wins and 11 wins for you guys...
Bell also has vision like Sanders.
Wow! Go away! Stupidest thing I've seen posted on this board in a long time.... of course it had to come from a Steelers fan
#Justsayin' -
These Browns Board vs. Steeler troll threads are the worst.
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Wow! Go away! Stupidest thing I've seen posted on this board in a long time.... of course it had to come from a Steelers fan
http://www.steelersdepot.com/2014/09/slimmer-bell-draws-praise-future-hof-rb-ladainian-tomlinson/
Its not just my opinion. I also never said he was Barry sanders or better than Barry but he has that vision. All you have to do is watch him run. He's a much larger man than sanders but he makes people miss the same. You were the idiot saying that Brown wasn't special and that you should get similar production out of your running back platoon.
Watch from like 1:20 on and this is just a quick google search example. His vision is ridiculous. Easily the best in the league right now and he's just entering his third season. He's also coming off a ridiculous season. He's a very patient runner and he has incredible short area quickness. When some of the best running backs to play the game are singing his praises I'm gonna take their opinion over yours. The guy that said Antonio brown isn't "special" and Hawkins is better after the catch lol.
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I love Bell but I'll bite. As of now: Lynch, Peterson, Foster, Charles, Forte. Bell may pass up a few of those guys this year and most of them have injury issues but for now they're better.
Better? None of those guys are better. A few on equal footing but foster certainly isn't one of them. Bell is better than both forte and Charles. Peterson, lynch and Murray who you didn't mention I'd put there but who knows what Peterson is showing up this season.I love Bell but I'll bite. As of now: Lynch, Peterson, Foster, Charles, Forte. Bell may pass up a few of those guys this year and most of them have injury issues but for now they're better.
Bell didn't fumble the football all season long. He catches the ball something Peterson doesn't do well and none of them have his vision.
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