Farmer - Year One upgrades.....
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On yesterday's Kiper/McShay Mock draft they had the Browns taking Shelton and Andrus Peat and 12 and 19.
On yesterday's Kiper/McShay Mock draft they had the Browns taking Shelton and Andrus Peat and 12 and 19.
They talked about possible take of Cam Erving at 19 and thought Cam would have been the better pick being universal on the OL..
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great positivity! can you do one of these each day BEFORE the draft? (cuz this is the time where there is nothing really to talk about and fans start scratching each other's eyes out over different opinions of players to be had)
i think mingo and gilbert become all pros this year.
What is Gipson's status, has he signed his tender?great positivity! can you do one of these each day BEFORE the draft? (cuz this is the time where there is nothing really to talk about and fans start scratching each other's eyes out over different opinions of players to be had)
i think mingo and gilbert become all pros this year.
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What is Gipson's status, has he signed his tender?great positivity! can you do one of these each day BEFORE the draft? (cuz this is the time where there is nothing really to talk about and fans start scratching each other's eyes out over different opinions of players to be had)
i think mingo and gilbert become all pros this year.
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Maybe we should think about a decent reliable kicker. Often ignored, very important
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I think your evaluation is too pro 2015 group. You used hindsight to lower the 2013 grade and ceilings to boost the 2015 grades
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I think your evaluation is too pro 2015 group. You used hindsight to lower the 2013 grade and ceilings to boost the 2015 grades
I think your evaluation is too pro 2015 group. You used hindsight to lower the 2013 grade and ceilings to boost the 2015 grades
Ok fair enough...Id say hindsight is a good tool for rating the past though. And "estimates" are all i got for the future.....
Simply comparing "what we know"(hindsight included) to see which position groups got better....
I said WR -DB- RB- MLB got better
OL- DL got only 1 player better
TE -QB stayed about the same....
and OLB got worse.....
So rather than just saying Im wrong then leaving, how about saying which ones you disagree with? and how would you change them? and if your not using hindsight or speculation, how did you come to it?....curious
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Maybe we should think about a decent reliable kicker. Often ignored, very important
I hope we do. In the Indy game that we lost 25-24 Cundiff missed a 40 yard field goal which cost us big time as well missing field goals in 5 straight games going into the Colts game. I like Hartley but he just does not have the leg strength.
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Kudos to mudfly for a quality post!!! It is breaking thru the cloud of pessimism surrounding the Browns. He'll even I was lost in it for a while.
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Ok....1 week to go before we get a few more to add to the list.......decided to look back 1 year and see where our roster was when Farmer got it VS where it is today....listing just the key players here(not every singe one).....
Ill start with the biggest turnover and work down to the least......
Wide Receiver 2013: Little - Bess - Gordon - Benjiman - Cooper
Wide Receiver 2015: Bowe- Hartline - Hawkins - Gabriel - Benjiman
Note: (Win). Definite upgrade here. Only drop off is Gordon and thats not on the Farmer...
Quarterback 2013: Weeden - Campbell - Hoyer
Quarterback 2015: McCown - Manziel - Shaw
Note:(Wash) Ill give Famrer a tiny credit for "upside", as there is a sliver of hope for the current group, while not so much for the last one.....
Running Back 2013: McGahee - Whittaker - Oby
Running Back 2015: West - Crowell - Winston - Draughn
Note: (Win) Definite upgrade here too.
Tight-end 2013: Cameron - Barnidge - Gray
Tight-end 2015: Housler - Barnidge - Drey
Note: (Wash) This one is close, but knowing what I know now, Id pick the current group by a nose.
Cornerback 2013: Haden - Skrine - McFadden - Owens
Cornerback 2015: Haden - T. Williams - K. Williams - Desir - Gilbert
Note: (Win) Slam dunk win here! Build the best CB group in one year
Safety 2013: Gipson - Ward
Safety 2015: Gipson - Whitner
Note:(win) Another nice upgrade.
Inside Linebacker 2013: Jackson - Robertson - Eubanks
Inside Linebacker 2015: Dansby - Robertson - Kirksey
Note: (Win) Yet another upgrade and step in the right direction
Outside Linebacker 2013: Kruger - Mingo - Sheard
Outside Linebacker 2015: Kruger - Mingo - Solomon - (A. Bryant?)
Note:(loss) Not feeling it here and the main reason Im thinking edge rusher - olb at #12
D-Line 2013: Ruben - D. Bryant - Taylor - Hughes - Winn - A. Bryant
D-Line 2015: Starks - D. Bryant - Taylor - Hughes - Winn - A. Bryant
Note:(slight win) Ok, Ill take Starks and let Rubin go. Understand this was considered a strength when Farmer took over. Time for some upgrades here.
O-Line 2013: Thomas - Greco - Mack - Lauvao - Schwartz
O-Line 2015: Thomas - Greco - Mack - Bitonio - Schwartz
Note: (win)....only one man added, but a damn good one! Time for depth.
So....In summary.....my take is that in only ONE YEAR, Farmer has successfully updraded almost every single position group....the only exceptions being at QB and OLB.....
I think it's pretty obvious you cant manufacture a great QB just because you need one....and I think Farmer has at least made an effort.....completely turning the position over in an attempt to find gold....a little credit is due for that....
And, I see the drop at OLB simply because we are between players.....IE: Sheard left and no one has filled the spot....so, that will happen soon and Im hoping the new guy will be an upgrade...eh?
The best upgrades have happened at: WR - DB - RB - MLB....
Now looking for some more upgrades at: DL - OLB - QB - OL(depth)
Safety 2013: Gipson - Ward
Safety 2015: Gipson - Whitner
Note:(win) Another nice upgrade.
Great stuff!
Just a piggyback and some random thoughts here:
IMO, the difference between Whitner and Ward as well as the difference between Pettine's back-end coverage philosophy and the previous one - enabled us to witness a Pro Bowl season from Gipson. Love our Safeties; BUT adding depth here might not be a bad idea considering Whitner's age and the injury that ended Gipson's 2014 season prematurely.
I'm not sure the supply of answers at QB meets our demand - so why not continue to try to make this an easier team to QB? When McCown played for an easier team to QB in Chicago - he easily outplayed the Jay Cutler that was holding their salary cap hostage. When he went to the Tampa Bay offense that ranked 31st at running the football for much of 2014 - he blended in with stink, stank, stunk... Moral of the story, is the chance to lead a balanced attack is better than starting every play with 1 hand tied behind the back.
Farmer's understanding that you just can't replace Alex Mack with anybody was much needed evolution in our front office. Using a similar philosophical current, it was also refreshing to see a need to prioritize what we put inside our offensive tackles on both sides of Center. All the while we had Steinbach here, we were really good/consistent at running between the tackles and getting interior linemen to the next level of defense. We were also killer good at pulling and trapping. Even the Hank Fraley that Philly had already demoted to 2nd string came here; and was able to pull from his Center position which was as unique as it was impressive back in 2007. Talk about a pleasant surprise. Anyway, I'm very thankful we have a front office mindset that knows the importance of adding a Bitonio.
Best of all, Farmer showed me an actual philosophical plan where his ego didn't over-rule input from a head coach/coaching staff he's counting on for make it happen. I saw a strategy that seemed to have clear-cut objectives to improve running game and pass defense coupled with the balls to stick to it. Anytime we hear "play like a Brown" just look at a team that got to 6-3 and even 7-4 despite how FUBAR our injury volume got coming off only 4 wins in 2013. There were no excuses as the competitive bar significantly improved to several playoff caliber opponents needing to erase late second half leads like Baltimore, Indy, Carolina or break 4th quarter ties with FGs as time expired like Baltimore and Pittsburgh needed to (thanks to narcolepsy on our STs). If we add a play maker, we might even pull out more close games by turning an expected short gain into an unexpected long TD the way Torrey Smith or Indy's WRs were able to exploit tired legs late (after being contained most of the day). Our DBs had anywhere from a 10k to a half marathon on their legs in the 4th quarter vrs Indy.
It's refreshing to have confidence in our front office and staff heading into a draft.
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Safety 2013: Gipson - Ward
Safety 2015: Gipson - Whitner
Note:(win) Another nice upgrade.
Great stuff!
Just a piggyback and some random thoughts here:
IMO, the difference between Whitner and Ward as well as the difference between Pettine's back-end coverage philosophy and the previous one - enabled us to witness a Pro Bowl season from Gipson. Love our Safeties; BUT adding depth here might not be a bad idea considering Whitner's age and the injury that ended Gipson's 2014 season prematurely.
I'm not sure the supply of answers at QB meets our demand - so why not continue to try to make this an easier team to QB? When McCown played for an easier team to QB in Chicago - he easily outplayed the Jay Cutler that was holding their salary cap hostage. When he went to the Tampa Bay offense that ranked 31st at running the football for much of 2014 - he blended in with stink, stank, stunk... Moral of the story, is the chance to lead a balanced attack is better than starting every play with 1 hand tied behind the back.
Farmer's understanding that you just can't replace Alex Mack with anybody was much needed evolution in our front office. Using a similar philosophical current, it was also refreshing to see a need to prioritize what we put inside our offensive tackles on both sides of Center. All the while we had Steinbach here, we were really good/consistent at running between the tackles and getting interior linemen to the next level of defense. We were also killer good at pulling and trapping. Even the Hank Fraley that Philly had already demoted to 2nd string came here; and was able to pull from his Center position which was as unique as it was impressive back in 2007. Talk about a pleasant surprise. Anyway, I'm very thankful we have a front office mindset that knows the importance of adding a Bitonio.
Best of all, Farmer showed me an actual philosophical plan where his ego didn't over-rule input from a head coach/coaching staff he's counting on for make it happen. I saw a strategy that seemed to have clear-cut objectives to improve running game and pass defense coupled with the balls to stick to it. Anytime we hear "play like a Brown" just look at a team that got to 6-3 and even 7-4 despite how FUBAR our injury volume got coming off only 4 wins in 2013. There were no excuses as the competitive bar significantly improved to several playoff caliber opponents needing to erase late second half leads like Baltimore, Indy, Carolina or break 4th quarter ties with FGs as time expired like Baltimore and Pittsburgh needed to (thanks to narcolepsy on our STs). If we add a play maker, we might even pull out more close games by turning an expected short gain into an unexpected long TD the way Torrey Smith or Indy's WRs were able to exploit tired legs late (after being contained most of the day). Our DBs had anywhere from a 10k to a half marathon on their legs in the 4th quarter vrs Indy.
It's refreshing to have confidence in our front office and staff heading into a draft.
Great stuff!
Just a piggyback and some random thoughts here:
Love our Safeties; BUT adding depth here might not be a bad idea considering Whitner's age and the injury that ended Gipson's 2014 season prematurely.
Something Ive been preaching for a while.....tho few agree.....we need depth at SS.....looks like Desir will cover the FS role...
I'm not sure the supply of answers at QB meets our demand - so why not continue to try to make this an easier team to QB?
Well said again......build the team and avoid compromising it's growth with reaches...
Farmer's understanding that you just can't replace Alex Mack with anybody was much needed evolution in our front office.. Talk about a pleasant surprise. Anyway, I'm very thankful we have a front office mindset that knows the importance of adding a Bitonio.
And one that has the knowledge to pick him
If we add a play maker, we might even pull out more close games by turning an expected short gain into an unexpected long
It will be interesting to see where his focus is this year.......6 days......tick tick tick......
It's refreshing to have confidence in our front office and staff heading into a draft.
YES.....it really is!
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I think your evaluation is too pro 2015 group. You used hindsight to lower the 2013 grade and ceilings to boost the 2015 grades
Ok fair enough...Id say hindsight is a good tool for rating the past though. And "estimates" are all i got for the future.....
Simply comparing "what we know"(hindsight included) to see which position groups got better....
I said WR -DB- RB- MLB got better
OL- DL got only 1 player better
TE -QB stayed about the same....
and OLB got worse.....
So rather than just saying Im wrong then leaving, how about saying which ones you disagree with? and how would you change them? and if your not using hindsight or speculation, how did you come to it?....curious
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wha wha what???
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I'd be very happy going defense in the first round. My pipe dream first round would be Shelton and Ray
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So Ray the story was we gave up the S. Watkins pick and got the extra first round pick this year for your love of Mariota. Do you stick with the Plan or Do you do it again for Cardell Jones.. Tick Tock Tick Tock. Friday maybe a good Day Off for all of us before we jump to Round 2 Saturday..
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I think the Browns will EXPLODE over the next few years......am I optimistic?....hell yes!
I know they all wont be great...but the numbers say at least a couple of these young guys will break out with a really big season...
Who's your pick?
Mingo?...Gilbert?...Manziel?...Crowell?...West?...Gabriel?...Armonty?...Housler?...Bowie?...Kwan?...Desir?.....Kirksey?....
My moneys on Mingo, Gilbert and Desir to be the big winners......
My "prayer pick" is Johnny.......
I think the Browns will EXPLODE over the next few years......am I optimistic?....hell yes!
I know they all wont be great...but the numbers say at least a couple of these young guys will break out with a really big season...
Who's your pick?
Mingo?...Gilbert?...Manziel?...Crowell?...West?...Gabriel?...Armonty?...Housler?...Bowie?...Kwan?...Desir?.....Kirksey?....
My moneys on Mingo, Gilbert and Desir to be the big winners......
My "prayer pick" is Johnny.......
This is far from full-proof/fool-proof; BUT when it comes to a young QB prospect I like to see some evidence of them beating far more talented opponents than the team they're playing on. I say that because if they are going to NFL teams that don't have a lot of talent - the Matt Leinarts (or others similar) from great teams have experienced culture shock when they have far less tools to work with at the more complex game commanding expedited decisions. AGAIN, there's gonna be exceptions to this.
Having said that, I think back to Bernie Kosar before Miami was the program to be at. His WRs were Stanley Shakespeare and JC Penny while very few teammates would end up finding a long term home in the NFL after upsetting a much more talented Nebraska team overall. There was also John Elway erasing something like a 20 point halftime deficit to a much more talented OSU team to knot a final score in a matchup many didn't give them much of a chance with. Later on, Aaron Rodgers was able to lead a lesser talented Cal team over USC.
As much as Manziel has his inner demons and intangibles that worry people - how many QBs could have taken their team into Bama's home turf vrs a team on their way to a National Championship against the mind/strategy of Nick Saban and BEAT it. One of the most impressive QB performances I've seen in college football considering how much Bama's DBs were getting away with grabbing and holding throughout the game. I've often heard Manziel wouldn't have been squat without Mike Evans; BUT I'm sure Nick Saban would be real quick to remind them Manziel to Ryan Swope was a pretty freakin lethal combination. As recently as 2014, Winston's first crack at beating an opponent with as much overall talent as his team ended up looking like a short bus fire drill. It was a disaster and he needed a Heimlich or 2 or 3. In a game somebody had to win, Mariota looked good vrs FSU. I don't even think he looked horrible vrs Ohio State if a couple guys held onto to some really good throws. That said, the better the opponent - the less the margin of error he had to work with and the final game got away from Oregon. I don't see enough for us to consider trading up for in either guy. Winston is a punk and anyone that researched character should have found the disturbing reason a guy that was lucky to evade a rape conviction doesn't belong as the face of our franchise. Mariota's best throws often seemed like a timing pattern to an area of the field off a particular drop or play-action sequence. The change from college to pros for this type of QB is often easy.
Love em or hate em, we're only about 1 paragraph into Manziel's first chapter heading into a QB draft class that doesn't thrill many of us. I don't see any reason to detour off the Farmer/Pettine plan to build this team the right way especially considering the current supply of projected first round QBs available. That said, it wouldn't kill us or Manziel to draft Bryce Petty where he's projected in lieu of reaching up into round one. Manziel's rookie year wasn't any different than Brett Favre's. When Favre got to Green Bay for a 2nd chance, he said he asked Ty Detmer "what's a nickle?" My guess is if he wasn't over-partying and sleeping through team meetings all week as a rookie - he knows this before season #2? Lucky for him, he went to the right setting and was able to reach a second chapter which ultimately became a great career/story. He threw a ton of INTs early on and got called "Wild Thing" but he improved his TD to INT ratios with time and experience. Favre said it constantly - that the QB that reminded him the most of himself was Manziel. I'm sure that includes the inner frat boy as much as the improvise behind center. I don't think this challenge for Manziel is impossible. The reality he is the one Cleveland drafted; and there isn't a big enough body of work for final conclusions. Maybe that bedroom gymnastics partner of his keeps him from missing the bar scene.
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